Waterfalls (RUG Cascade!)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...fsight/BBE.jpg http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../Shardless.jpg http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ofsight/AV.jpg

You've guessed it, this thread is for the development of a Legacy cascade deck. The best cascade enablers are Red-Green and Blue-Green creatures, so let's start there.

A little insight on Cascade,

The cascade ability is an intringuing one as it has the ability to create card advantage and board presence. Since cascade triggers on cast, it directly puts two spells on the stack, therefore it is very difficult to fully counter. Furthermore, cascade allows cascaded spells to be cast without paying their mana cost, this is often a great way to cheat creatures or spells into play that you have no business casting with ease such as Suspend cards and Split cards. Suspend cards can be cast immediatly without suspension. Cascading into a Split card offers you the choice to play whichever end of the card you wish to, so long as only one of them has a lower mana cost than the cascader.

Waterfalls is a RUGb midrange Aggro-Control deck that utilizes the cascade mechanic to generate card advantage. It's just like Shardless BUG but with more spice.

Waterfalls
Updated list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
3 Ancestral Visions

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Forest
//SB
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Meddling Mage
3 Duress
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tundra


Older list (from 2012-2014)

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (22)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Ancestral Vision
1 Toxic Deluge

Lands (23)
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Swan Song
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod


Sideboard Plans

Storm Combo
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Cage, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 1 Toxic Deluge, 4 Visions

Reanimator
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 4 Bolt

Dredge
In: 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay

Sneak Show/OmniShow
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Swan Song, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 3 Bloodbraid, 3 Decay, 4 Bolt

Miracle Control
In: 2 Swan Song, 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 3 Wasteland, 1 Toxic Deluge

Burn, UR Delver
In: 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Ooze
Out: 2 Visions, 1 Toxic Deluge

Canadian Threshold, Team America
In: 1 Ooze
Out: 1 FoW

Jund
In: 1 Ooze, 1 Needle
Out: 2 FoW

DnT, Maverick
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Null Rod/Ooze, 1 Engineered Plague
Out: 4 FoW

Patriot, Deathblade
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
Out: 4 FoW

Elves
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Cage
Out: 3 Wasteland

Merfolk
In: 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Null Rod, 1 Ooze
Out: 4 FoW

Goblins
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Engineered Plague, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Ooze
Out: 4 FoW

Nic Fit
In: 1 Golgari charm, 1 Ooze, 1 Cage, 1 Needle
Out: 3 Decay, 1 Toxic Deluge

-EDIT 16/10/12: Added a white splash for SB options
-EDIT 24/10/12: Changed the white splash for black
-EDIT 14/11/12: Updated SB
-EDIT 11/03/14: Added Nemesis and SB plans
-EDIT 14/03/14: Updated SB and added Wastelands
-EDIT 23/10/14: Updated Mainboard, SB, and added colored text :)
-EDIT 25/10/16: Added a current list to the primer and left the older stuff. Yay for Leovold!

Right off the bat, this deck looks really cool. The idea seems awesome. How well has it worked that you only have 8 "real" creatures? Also have you considered running V. Clique? That card is sweet.

I like the idea as well.

The spells you can cascade into are really sweet and have always some value: Bolt to the face - ice to draw a card. Noble hiearch seems the weakest. But I agree Vendilion Clique looks much stronger than the Angel. It's good against Miracles/Combo and in general my favourite T2 play after a hierarch.

Terminus is still ab problem, but Ancestral Vision is a ton of card advantage and the beaters + reach is very potent.

Sidebaord I would split 2 Submerge, 2 Mind-Harness. you have tons of mana to support the harness. Sulfuric Vortexx also works for RUG - should even be better in this deck.

I have no issues having enough threats. Cascade makes sure I don't run out. The more I play the deck, though, the more I think Ponder would be better than Recall. It would definitely make the deck more consistent. As it is now, it has great explosive potential as well as fizzle potential.

I really like Illusory Angel as a card for this deck. It is definitely better post-board when I side in Crypts or Submerge (T1 Noble, T2 Submerge + Angel). I tried Gitaxian Probe with her but I didn't like it that much, I think Ponder would make her a bit more stable. She is probably sending me in the wrong direction, but it's very hard to resist her. A pair of Cliques and a pair of Oozes is probably better...

I also think a couple of mainboard Jittes couldn't hurt either.

Ahhh, so many good cards, so few deck space...

1 Jitte MD, 1 SB was also my idea.
if I play cascase I would certainly not cut the recall. :)

I would play 1-2 ponder and cut maybe 1 creature and 1 Fire-Ice
Also 1 Sylvan Library would be very powerful.

My thoughts:

20 land, 4 Wasteland, no basics (to support vendilion clique). Anyway if they waste it hurts us less, because we have hierarch, ancestral ticking down or recover potential with a powerful cascade. I think playing through wasteland and not around it is better. Another option would be to cut the wasteland but it seems very powerful.

creatures:
4 Shardless
3 Bloodbraid (4 mana is expensive so went down to 3)
3 Goyf (do you need 4 with all the other power - i cut 1 for the jitte)
3 Vendilion Clique (angel is nice and stuff, but this improves combo & control so bad)
4 Hierarch

4 Bolt
3 Fire
1 Jitte

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Ancestral Visions

4 Force of Will

Edit:
A question concerning the SB. Against blue non-combo decks you usually you want to bring in the 4 red-blasts? Makes cascade so much worse. How about replacing it with spell pierce for the combo matchup where you surely side out some cascade stuff and the idea to fight blue decks with stuff worth cascading into.

Looks interesting.
Have to agree with clique over the angel, it's a flying threat you can cascade into, and a bit of extra disruption, and a good deal of information (or just a free cycle of sorts if you need it to be).

Brainstorm + Cascade seems pretty powerful, too, setting up a cascade or potentially chain of cascades if you have a really good hand, going Bloodbraid into Agent into 'goyf to allow you to just explode onto the battlefield for 5 mana and one card. Or just to make sure when you play your cascade spell, you are more likely to hit the removal spell you need or the ancestral for some extra card advantage.

One problem I've seen with cascade decks that I don't think this has, is cascading into dead cards. It seems like everything you could hit has at least some value, even if it's not the best card to cascade into, you still get a bit of direct damage, a body, a mana dork, or some extra cards. Worst case seems to be hitting a brainstorm, but even then you gain a card and get to fix your hand a bit.

Getting to 3-4 mana quickly so you can start exploiting cascade isn't too bad, I think the format is slow enough, especially with force and a lot of removal to help slow down the faster decks if you need to.

I'm not sure how well the deck mulligans, but it doesn't look like it does particularly well, since cascade is often going to be a bit of a gamble.

Ancestral has an odd problem here, too. If you cascade into it, it's great, three extra cards at no cost to you, but if you have to suspend it, then you probably won't really be rewarded by it, since this isn't looking like a "late game" type of deck.

Wraths seem problematical, cascading into a bunch of nice threats is great, but it's hard to hold back or keep from overextending with cascade, since you won't always know how many creatures you're about to put into play when you cast bloodbraid elf.

It's also a bit vulnerable to stifle, since both the fetches, and cascade itself, can be stifled.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jenni

Ancestral has an odd problem here, too. If you cascade into it, it's great, three extra cards at no cost to you, but if you have to suspend it, then you probably won't really be rewarded by it, since this isn't looking like a "late game" type of deck.

Turn 1 Suspend has its merits against a lot of decks. Any control deck as well as any dork deck like DnT or Maverick will be kept at bay by the Bolts and Fires long enough for the Recalls to kick in full gear. At least, this is what the testing has proved.

Wraths seem problematical, cascading into a bunch of nice threats is great, but it's hard to hold back or keep from overextending with cascade, since you won't always know how many creatures you're about to put into play when you cast bloodbraid elf.

The beauty of cascade is that it might look like you're overextending, but you're not. Whatever hits the board after a Shardless or a BBE is still extra.

It's also a bit vulnerable to stifle, since both the fetches, and cascade itself, can be stifled.

They can Stifle my trigger all they want, I will still be left with something and they won't.

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@Catmint,

-Sylvan Library is an interesting card. I agree with you that Library and Jitte deserve MD space as 1-ofs, they have inherent synergy with cascade creatures and definitely don't want multiples.

-I don't know about losing the basics. The deck is very midgame oriented if you don't land a T1 Noble. I haven't been crippled by my manabase so far. I usualy fetch all basics against RUG and I wouldn't do without. Also, I originaly played the deck without Wasteland, and with 2 basics. Adding the Wastes was a massive boon. As far as going all duals goes, I really wouldn't want to be cut from my red source.

-Goyf is too important to cut down. He is the best blocker post-cascade and the biggest creature in the deck. A prime cascade target and T2 play.

-A 3/3 split of Clique and BBE is reasonable. I am just a bit wary of the Legend rule.

-Fire // Ice is the strongest cascade after Recall. Taping a permanent + a cantrip off of a 3/2 haste creature is incredible value and aggressivity. I don't think I would need Ponder anymore without Illusory Angel.

EDIT: I tried 3 Spell Pierce in the SB and they weren't so handy. FoW is the only counterspell I can count on. I chose REBs over pierce because they are counterspells when drawn, and potential removal when cascaded into (worst case scenario). I have 4 in the board so far but I haven't tried them out yet to be honest. Perhaps Izzet Charm?

True... the lengend rule sucks when cascading into, but it is a very strong "normal" play. I guess it is worth the risk since if you have a clique in play there are only 2 left in the deck and it only cascades from BBE. Multiple cliques if not cascading into is not a problem: if your clique survives it can kill (no 2nd clique needed) or trade. Clique is just the best card against combo & it puts miracles & batterskulls/Jittes on the bottom.


Duals vs. Basics: No idea - maybe you are right. Cliques are the only UU and I guess the rest of the deck plays out without needing a lot of "same color" spells in the same turn.

Red blast as removal vs RUG is ok. altough still narrow and against UW(x) variants cascading into redblast is very bad whereas cascading into creatures/draw is nuts. Feel like you are giving away cascade advantage vs. UWx if you board red-blasts. My thought was the combo matchup: -4 Shardless +4 Spell pierce. You then have 8 counterspells, 3 Vendilion Clique and a fast clock. Bloodbraid and Visions are still kind of bad - but T1 Visions can be relevant and you only tap out for BBE if you win that turn or they can't win next turn I guess. However if you have neither Red-blast or Spell Pierce versus Counter-top Miracles I would sideboard 2 Krosan Grip and not 2 Ancient Grudge.

Concerning T2 play: I used to looooove NO Rug with T1 7 acceleration slots & 3-4 Clique for Turn 2. Unfortunately GSZ or more manadorks cannot be supported.
Now in this deck there are 8 T1 plays: Suspend Visions or Manadork and for Turn 2 (if only 2 mana available) 3 Goyf, 1 Jitte or 1 Sylvan Library. Question is if you have enough Turn 2 Power with 2 mana" if you run 3 Goyfs. The thing is that if you have 3 mana Turn 2 I guess you prefer to shardless or Vendilion Clique and Goyf would be stuck in your hand. Also for 50% of my turn 1 plays I am not in a "super hurry" to play out my threats because there is a vision to come so I can bolt/fire something or ice-cantrip down their land which has a lot of value with a vision in play. It still might be right to run 3 Goyfs but not for the worry of not having enough big creatures. The deck has a lot of firepower. :smile: Maverick has bigger creatures anyway, but Mind Harness/ Submerge + overwhelming have to beat Ooze & Night.

I feel as though this deck requires Jace to set up some of the more powerful Cascades.

Previously this deck also had Ponder to set up Cascade.

If you're struggling with REB, why not try Active Volcano as a potential alternative againt RUG decks? Most RUG lists use only Islands as mana sources, and it kills Delvers dead.

Hi guys,

I toyed with this kind of deck time ago, I'm happy that someone else is interested in this archetype.

I ran a list fith* Punishing Fires, have you considered it? It is in-color and it can contribute to the insane card advantage the deck provide.

Also, are you sure that you can cast a Fire//Ice off from a cascade of three/four? Isn't the converted mana cost of the card 4? If, for example, you reveal it with Dark Confidant you lose four life.

EDIT: * f...ing typing error, I meant "with". I hate this keyboard!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gesucca

Also, are you sure that you can cast a Fire//Ice off from a cascade of three/four? Isn't the converted mana cost of the card 4? If, for example, you reveal it with Dark Confidant you lose four life.

---

The converted mana cost of a split card on the stack is the CMC of whichever half is being cast.

However, in other zones the CMC of it is both the sides, not the sum. So for example, when Dark Confidant reveals one and asks what's the CMC of Fire // Ice, it returns an answer of 2 and 2, so you lose 4 life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

The converted mana cost of a split card on the stack is the CMC of whichever half is being cast.

However, in other zones the CMC of it is both the sides, not the sum. So for example, when Dark Confidant reveals one and asks what's the CMC of Fire // Ice, it returns an answer of 2 and 2, so you lose 4 life.

---

Ah, ok, understood. Thanks and my apologize for the OT.

There was a version of this deck that ran [card] Guided Passage [/card] that did fairly well at open and I didn't see anyone talking about it, thought I would share.

Here's the latest Guided Passage deck:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...1&iddeck=62695

//NAME: Giavellotto ft. Paxxu
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Guided Passage
4 Force of Will
4 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

It seems very close to Next Level Thresh with an increased game against Tribal. Seems like it might be good against all the Miracle/Tribal decks right now, but loses a punch against unfair strategies that require heavier countermagic.

EDIT: Holy crap, just now noticed Counterbalance in the Sideboard. I'm sold!

Izzet Charm is countermagic that it doesn't blow to cascade into.

Just to clarify a bit on split cards:

Split cards converted mana cost is the sum of both ends;

Split cards mana cost is the chosen end's CMC;

Cascading into a split card allows you to cast any end as long as one of them has a lower CMC than the cascader.

Woah, I did not know of guided passage. It looks more stable than AV but it won't cascade off a shardless.

As for pfire, I did play against that deck, and I stomped it... I didn't like how it durdled around and didn't do much.

Jace is definitely an interesting addition. Brainstorm effects are insane with cascade.

Guided Passage really needs Brainstorm AND Jace to be good. Sometimes, you cast Passage and they give you 3 shit cards (yes, I understand the concept that every card in the deck is great to receive off of Passage, but between realism and having spoken to an excellent player who ran this deck, I think we can all agree that this concept is not accurate). You need to be able to Brainstorm those cards away for profit (think Standard Ancestral Recall of JtMS+Squadron Hawks)

The guided passage control deck has a different approach without visions but a more non-linear aggro-control appraoch. LIke NO-RUG but with good lategame cards like bloodbraid, Jace, Punishing Fire & EE instead of Natural Order.

THe list from this thread has a more linear gamplan which tries to utilize the cascade mechanic as much as possible and to hit face. The gameplan does not require a lot of setup to cascade because you trust in randomness and sometimes settle for damage to the face instead of 3 extra cards. I like it more because I feel visions is very strong against the other blue decks.

So for this list:

First thing i thought about when i saw it: "how about punishing fire" - however Fire ice is so much better cascading into and bolt is a very important 1 mana removal I think. Also more grindy stuff does not feel necessary.

Bloodbraid takes the 3 4cmc slots instead of Jace and is more powerful in this deck I feel because the 3 haste damage fit the gameplan very well. Jace to setup better cascades sounds really like winmore. :) Visions, Sylvan, Jitte & Cascading is a lot of lategame stuff. Maybe Jace in the sideboard... It is just important to handle other lategame stuff that just trumps all our creatures. Batterskull comes to mind but with 8 burn spells and 2 Krosan Grips I feel ok.

What is however awkard if you have Noble Hierarch & Visions in the opener or if you cascade into hierarch. Question is if rejecting Hierarch is an option. Would need to play more lands, lower the curve and put some ponders in. Ponder is a good card in the early game & to setup cascade. You also don't feel embarrassed cascading into it, but it feels hiearch is powerful enough to take the risk of awkwardness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Split cards converted mana cost is the sum of both ends;

---

This is not true. For example, if you reveal Assault / Battery (costs 1 and 4) for a Counterbalance trigger, you don't get to counter a CMC 5 spell - you counter one that's CMC 1 or CMC 4.

The reason you take the sum in life loss from Dark Confidant is because when the trigger asks what is the CMC of the card revealed, it gets both sides as answers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MTG Comprehensive Rules

708.2. In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. As long as a split card is a spell on the stack, only the characteristics of the half being cast exist. The other half’s characteristics are treated as though they didn’t exist.

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Thanks for that insight Esp3k, I didn't grasp that notion fully because I was still wondering how come you could cast Bust by cascading into it with a cascader with a CMC of at least 3.

Speaking of Assault // Battery, isn't it just better than Lightning Bolt? You take away the instant speed and make it 2 instead of 3 damage but give it the potential to be a 3/3 creature and an overall better cascade spell.

Looking at that Guided Passage list, it appears to be a control deck more than anything else. It seems like that deck revolves more around silver bullets rather than relentless aggression. What I like about Waterfalls is the fact that it is constantly in your face. It is akin to a RUG Delver deck but it swaps out the aggressive Delver openings in favor of additional fuel.

I'm really diggin this deck idea. I just have 1 question... where are the Grim Lavamancers?

Looks pretty cool

T1 - Mana Dude
T2 - 2cc dude, Brainstorm opponent EOT
T3 - Cascade into Visions

Here's a more aggro version that placed well back in July.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=63755

//NAME: More Cascade Robin
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Shardless Agent
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

3 Ancestral Vision
3 Ponder

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique

I think it is too much to have both Bloodbraid as well as Shardless in one deck. You want to use the curve.

This is what I've recently tried:

3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island


4 Shardless Agend
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Force of Will

= 60

SB:
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Submerge
2 Mind Harness

It is not easy to beat Delver (RUG or Tempo-Team America) but since you can create so much card advantage you should win against control. Against aggro you have to rely on Punishing Fire. Which you draw from time to time.

I took it to a tourney two weeks ago.

My wins were against Maverick, Omnitell

Lost against Elves, Merfolks (both good match ups but due to not finding my removal suite...).

The deck plays pretty well. I used to play this very deck before Shardless Agent and I was always very confident about it.
Now it needs more testing. I'm for example not sure if I want to have Bloodbraid in there again. Do I want to cut a Jace TMS and have a second Ponder instead?
What about having a fourth Punishing Fire? Do I really need 4 Ancestral Visions?
Do we want to have Jitte in our sideboard, too?

Historically spoken, I think this deck developed like this:
Roberto Sartini played UGR

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=39937

Switched to something like this - called it "Robin":

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=46870

Had a lot of success:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=50310

And other players tried it as well (especially in Germany and Italy, I think - Spain as well):
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=56424 - Classical list
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=57358 - no cascade in here
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=58676 - no Visions - Guided Passage instead
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=54634 - Classical list
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=60053 - Sartini again
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=60700 - Sartini moving back to Next Level Threshold again - almost cut the cascade mechanism completely

So do we have a development towards cascade again? Does it make sense to give Shardless a try?

I think the deck is well positioned because it can win against almost every possible deck. What we have to do right now, is to find a strong list that is well positioned in the current meta.

Btw.: I would not play Tormod's Crypt in this deck's sideboard. There are a lot of better options. Relic allows you to draw a card, Grafdiggers Cage is good against a lot of different decks and stays on the battlefield, Extractions is not as narrow as Tormod's Crypt.

So from my testing with this list I think 3 Tarmogoyf is enough. It is just too often dead in hand, because whenever you can play a more expensive spell you want to do so. And there are 10 more expenseive creatures

Also cascading into Fire/Ice proofed to be very good, so I wont try out punishing fire. Also feels like there is no need with so much burn and card advantage.

Currently thinking about the flex spot in this list

20 land, 3 Basics, 4 Wasteland

4 Shardless
3 Bloodbraid
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique

1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Visions
1 ???

SB
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
4 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip (can't shardless into and better against CB & Batterskull)
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction

So 1 Option would be to just run a Ponder, but with all the early plays and the relatively stable manabase I don't see it as a must. Another option would be to just cut the Jitte and run 2 Jace.

Not sure about the sideboard yet. Don't know how much support the deck needs against maverick, but I am afraid the combo matchup will be pretty bad.

Three Tarmogoyf are enough.
But 4 Wastelands and only 20 lands? Does that work?
I mean I think your approach is pretty neat and looks pretty clever if you do not want to run Punishing Fire.
I guess your sideboard is OK for the Maverick match up. And against combo you have Wastelands, too. So it might be OK.

Well, the way to loose to Candian is if you get screwed and die before you get anything going. Not sure how many more [colored] [basic] lands you need to make sure that does not happen too often. Against all other decks or RUG without Stifle I feel the manabase is ok.

Maybe going up to 21 lands with 3 wastelands and playing 1 Ponder would make a difference. Btw.: Jace has been fantastic in my last couple of games, so won't cut him. :)

Optimized list + manbase has to be figured out & adapted to the meta with intensive tests agains the tiers, but I feel the shell with Shardless + some number of bloodbraid/Jace with Visions rejecting Punishing Fire and Guided Passage is the way to go.

I'm loving the RUG version of this. Reach is awesome and Bloodbraid Elf rocks. And the addition of Noble Hierarch is nifty for exalted.

T1 Hierarch
T2 Agent
T3 Elf

Neat.

This deck looks sweeeet! I really like "big" versions of RUG over Canadian. This looks so fun to play! I like the deck name to.

I think we need to discuss the best cascade targets. Visions is obviously in, but other things need to be tested. Fire/Ice is definetly nice, but other split cards have potential too. Here's the list of all split cards: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...=visual&name=+[%2f]

Cards that caught my eye: Assault/Battery, Boom/Bust (free armageddon!!) and Research/Development. All are also in deck colors so can be hardcast if necessary.

Concerning Guided Passage: as much as i love this card, I just don't think it's good enough. The ussual pile is gonna be: random land, Hierarch and Visions or some split card. It's OK but not worth the slot imo.

Concerning Izzet Charm: I love this card and currently testing it in my NLT, but it doesn't seem too good in this deck. Cascading into it is probably just worse then Fire/Ice.

Here's my take on the list (nothing unusual really):

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Shardless Agent
3 Bloodbraind Elf
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace TMS
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
3-4 open slots for cascade targets

20-21 lands, including all 3 basics and 3-4 Wastelands.

regards

I don't think it works to cascade into the more expensive spells on split cards. Anyway I think it is very important to make the spells you want to cascade into also decent if drawn normally. A turn 1 visions is certainly ok and Fire Ice is a good removal spell. Also the ice part should be used aggressively as a Rishadan Port in the upkeep if Ancestral Visions is ticking down.

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Originally Posted by catmint

I don't think it works to cascade into the more expensive spells on split cards. Anyway I think it is very important to make the spells you want to cascade into also decent if drawn normally. A turn 1 visions is certainly ok and Fire Ice is a good removal spell. Also the ice part should be used aggressively as a Rishadan Port in the upkeep if Ancestral Visions is ticking down.

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It very much does: per Bloodbraid Elf's oracle rulings: "If you exile a split card with Cascade, check if at least one half of that split card has a converted mana cost that's less than the converted mana cost of the spell with cascade. If so, you can cast either half of that split card."

But you're correct; you should be running spells that are inherently good on their own, not only when freecast with cascade effects.

This is actually a really cool list, lots of interesting possibilities for abusing cascade.

Would it be crazy to try some number of Esperzoa in the list? The problem with Shardless and BBE is that they are both pretty underwhelming once they hit play, but having a big flying beater that can bounce an Agent every turn seems worth exploring.

I think Esperzoa could fall into the "fancy" sondrome. Vendilion Clique is just a straight up powerful play. As for 2/2 vanillas and 3/2 haste ground creatures.
My esperiences is that:
- I know exactly why hierarch deserves the spot altough she is not producing red
- the ice/burn or "build up board position and overwhelm" tactic is what helps against opposing large roadblocks.
- life total advantage helps to hold opposing beasts back.
- If the board is stalled Visions can be cast and/or Jace can safe the day

Here is a quick update on what I have tried/tested lately:

-Assault // Battery is good, but not better than Bolt. It is a stronger cascade but a weaker card to hold as you will never cast the token part of it.

-Punishing Fire is win-more. It is nowhere near Fire // Ice's power level. Most of the time, games don't even last long enough for both parts to be active, or the combo is simply easely disrupted. Grove is also a terrible land to draw.

-Esperzoa and Aether Adept. Yes, I tested Aether Adept... Just like Illusory Angel, they are great when they work, but they don't always work, so that's a no-go.

-Boom // Bust and Reasearch // Development are both terrible cards to hold in your hand. Cascading into them may be nice, but the odds of having to cast your spells are much higher than the odds of cascading into them. It's not because you can do something broken that it is good.

The flex slots for this deck IMO are the # of Cliques and BBE. I like Jace in this deck but I am not entirely sold on him being better than BBE yet. In order to maximize/justify a playset of AVs, I don't think 7-8 cascaders is too many. I know how great brainstorm effects are for this deck, but how much slots can I dedicate to mid-late game card advantage?

As a sidenote, I have thought of making the list more agressive with a lot of quick and effective cascade spells, Ponders, and Delvers but I opted against because it is diametricaly opposed to the deck's strategy. A 4CMC "core" card will not function in a Delver deck.

I don't think red for BBE and bad removal outweights the need for swords to plowshares. I also don't want to ruin my cascades with manadorks. It's really about drawing 3 cards.
The problem with cascade is the limits in the deckbuilding process (playing non-fow counters is PLAIN WRONG). Without discard (and i don't like it) we need something else... and instead of having sideboarded Counterbalances we will be better of with them main. And then we get to play the best support card for ancestral vision too (sensei's divining top).

3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
6 island
1 forest
1 plains
4 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 ancestral vision
4 counterbalance
4 tarmogoyf
2 vedalken shackles
4 shardless agent
4 jace, the mind sculptor
4 force of will
3 tundra
3 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
6 island
1 forest
1 plains

sideboard
2 krosan grip
4 path to exile
2 elspeth, knight-errant
2 tormod's crypt
1 grafdigger's cage
2 vendillion clique
2 meddling mage

There could be some number of divine verdicts/terminus in the side, but I really like the approach of 1 mana-removal and planeswalkers/vedalken shackles for crowdcontrol. It's really only Nimble mongoose that could be a real problem, MOR and etched champion can both be vedalken shackled. Submerge is nice and all but doesn't solve the classic merfolkproblem.

stoneforge mystic is a card. I think goyf blocks better though, and that's what why want our 2manadork.

snapcaster is sad of a cascade, but might be ok somewhere in the 75.

I don't want to cascade into my situational cards so Krosan grip is the perfect anti-CB card.

The manabas is really good and I rather not spice it up with non-basics (karakas, for example).

Sadly Engineered explosives can't be played in a cascade list.

Please let me know what you think or if the post should be moved somewhere else.

Concerning the RUG version I came to the same conclusions as Qweerios. On Jace: It is just a very different & powerful angle of attack that I like over the full playset of bloodbraid elves.

Cascading in a UW counterbalance shell is a different approach:
Yes you get to play SD.top and reduce randomness in your cascades, but by playing a lot of "bad" (in the sense of relatively bad in multiples or situational) cascade targets like SD.top, swords & counterbalance you need to do that. With RUG you take a shot at random and you don't mind if it is sometimes only 3 to the face or a hierarch, since you have more cascade spells and your gameplan supports reducing the opponents life. :wink:

With your list I see the issue that you still need to get control somehow and you can use shardless only to draw some extra cards. You still play only 4 swords, 2 Shackles to control the board. You will very often "durdle" around with clunky hands (SD.top/counterbalance/shardless,Shackles, Jace) loosing a lot of tempo while Canadian & Maverick will kill you, because you do not have Terminus to get you back to the game. The reason Miracles can support clunky SD.top & Counterbalance is because they make up for their tempo by loss by having Terminus & Entreat the Angels.

The Waterfall approach is more proactive and the opponent needs to stop you from killing them. You do not really need to get "full control"; you just need to overwhelm the opponent on the board & with life/card advantage. Therefore the 2/2 exhalted body has a much higher impact on the game. Also with 8 burn spells it is much easier to control the board. 4 of this spells (fire/ice) are very strong in this deck functioning as a rishadan port or creature tap & while beeing a very good random cascade target.

Yes, it is a different approach.

I don't really agree about cascading bad cards... quite the opposite actually. I.E Sensei's Divining Top is not really bad in multiples, but if they were, you would never cascade into them (since having one will let you arrange the top cards anyway). There's also the neat synergy where you stack 2 dead draws (mostly lands) on top of a good card. Not only will you get a nice, consistent, present on your cascades but also get rid of 2 bad cards and a fresh new top3.

I don't think the cascade/visions should be built as an aggrodeck, Canadian Threshhold is better at that.
BBE and bolts sure adds up in damage when you goldfish but red/green/blue have problems dealing with big creatures. Playing for the mid-game means your opponent will be doing the same. Knight of the reliquary is game over far to often :(

I understand the concern of my durdlyness and I like drawing cards a bit to much. However, those extra cards compensates for not running more anti-cards. 20 of my cards helps me find or play a plow (jace, bs, top, agent, visions). The other half of the deck makes sure it resolve:)

I guess it's just personal preference as BBE is a very powerful card and im not into the whole "attacking with creatures".

I agree that Terminus should be in the side over path. I re-read my post and I clearly stated that "I need removal for 1 mana" and terminus does that pretty much allways.

Good argument on the "multiple top" non-issue and the general top & Shardless synergy. Still think the deck "doesnt do" enough, but you can surely try to tune it in a way that you have a decent "UW Miracle-control with Shardless in it deck". I suggest to post that in the Miracles thread or open a new one, since it has some fundamental differences with this approach.

As for canadian beeing the better aggro deck. I see it different: Canadian is actually a pretty bad aggro deck in the sense of being threat light, but it has a lot of good filtering & disruption riding the super-effecient threats to victory. Problem is if a deck like Nic Fit, Pox, BUG control, Miracles is out to get you, you have a hard time in the long game whereas Waterfalls likes to go long with a higher curve and more card-advantage than all of those decks. Compared to RUG you basically sacrifice a good combomatchup to make all the fair matchups more favourable.

Also Maverick is very tough to beat with Canadian, whereas I feel it is much easier with Waterfalls. Knight is a problem, but he can be overwhelmed (you might have to 2 for 1 yourself which is often not a big deal) and he can't come down early as a huge anmial. Also don't forget the 4 Ice + 2 Jace to temporarily deal with big creatures, which can be enough for the deadly swings. With Hierarch + more creatures Thalia hurts a lot less and 8 burn spells fight mother more consistantly. Naturally games go long so some numbers of visions will resolve... Postboard you have Mind Harness & Submerge which are even stronger in waterfalls than in canadian because you swing for more. Also the 2 Sulfur Elemental can be played a lot better with Hierarch and more mana and you can run Jitte.

I still have to test against my friend who is a good Maverick player, but I think the matchup will be much better than with Canadian.

How about Phantasmal Image in there? pretty good against a lot of deck but can also copy your own agent or bloodbraid to keep on cascading?