With all the discussion to whether or not people would be happy or hurt over changes to the Reserved List, I wondered what the actual bulk of opinions here are. I have my hunches but I'll keep quiet until after some results.
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With all the discussion to whether or not people would be happy or hurt over changes to the Reserved List, I wondered what the actual bulk of opinions here are. I have my hunches but I'll keep quiet until after some results.
This poll is not representative of how the magic-playing community would react. There's pretty heavy selection bias going on.
It doesn't matter if there was a 90% majority or even higher. A class action suite against wizards would be a big problem for them. They're never getting rid of the reserved list. 100 people are all it's going to take to stop it from happening.
True, the poll is only representative of those participating.Quote:
Ayotte
In debates over the Reserved List, the point is always made that Chronicles upset enough players to bring about the thing in the first place, and thus, any changes or abandonment to the policy would equally upset and equal number of players. While by no means closure, I thought it to be interesting to have numbers generated by the very people I was talking to as reference.
The majority of the magic playing community are kitchen table/casual players. I doubt they would care about the reserved list or even know what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayotte
Of the people that would be impacted by reserved list reprints, I think this poll would show it. I don't know how large the commander population is on the source, but I doubt they would bitch about the chance to get more reserved list staples.
It will upset old collectors and players. Players that don't really buy packs. The same players Time Spiral block was made for but didn't support it (which made the block one of the biggest flops sales-wise).
So why should WotC appease to them?
I personally think WotC has fixed this problem: make cards that will cost a lot in recent sets. Look Jace, Fetchlands and other standard money cards.
This guarantees that the if you support their business; once in a while you get a pat in the back. I know a guy that drafts all the time. Back in Innistrad/Dark Ascension season, he opened enough Lilliana from draft that he had enough "money" to build the rest of his Modern (and now going to be Legacy) Jund.
That said, I still do not like the Reserved List.
I think the point I'm trying to get through is that eternal players like to complain but if WotC listens to them, they don't really support them.
Agree with the problem of selection bias. You're asking players, who are more likely to want to play.
Can we just get something like this stickied so people can be thrown to it every time a thread turns into complaining about the reserved list?
I hope people realize that the fact that standard money rares are as expensive as they are, is also the reason why eternal cards are as expensive as they are. A Snapcaster Mage or Liliana of the Veil should never cost more than The Abyss or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, so if cards like liliana of the veil become 100$ cards, guess what happens to out of print eternal staples? Sure as hell not going to trade them away for less than a standard mythic rare.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
FINALLY some comon sense, damn it was about time.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
i thought i was the only one thinking the same.
24 hours out and at least you have to give credit that the majority of respondents are aware of how their own views reflect those around them.
Apologies towards the indifferent, I probably should have just given you a sing choice, since I'm sure you are equally indifferent to how your opinion falls.
I hear this a lot and it sounds silly every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cox
That's because it is silly.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
A legal issue against WotC in case they "break the promise given concerning the Reserved List" has no chance. I have trust in the US law regarding such stupidity
Abolishing the reserved list would cause collectors and older players to lose a huge amount of the value of their collection. All of that value would be transferred to Wizards, since they would be the ones who could make the reprints and cash in. New players would be excited to buy the previously reserved cards and also gain a lot of value by purchasing the reprint products that Wizards makes.
It sounds like a typical redistribution of wealth. Take from the players who have already invested thousands of dollars and give it to the new players. Of course, the new players aren't actually receiving valuable tangible goods. The value that they receive is the ability it play with these cards for much cheaper than normal. All the while, Wizards stands to make huge profits as long as the majority of players happen to be on the receiving end of the redistribution.
How come people don't just play with proxies? People already do proxied vintage tournaments. If legacy is really as popular as people say it is, and if the cards really are prohibitively expensive, then why not hold proxy tournaments? Go to your local game store and ask them to hold proxy legacy tournaments. They wouldn't make any more money by running normal legacy tournaments anyway since people aren't buying the cards from them.
I would rather see it modified with small, annual reprints the increase the amount of cards.
Apple patented "round corners" and won the lawsuit. I think everything is possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I dont think we need Dual Lands to be tanked to 10 bucks, but I do think prices should come down a bit. Like has been said, it needs to be prohibitive enough that not everyone can just derp around in legacy. It's barriers of entry should block out the players who arent ready and willing to an extent.
Why? They would add more money to the prize pool without ever winning anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I like playing against people that understand how the game works. One reason I really hate playing at prereleases is the people who are playing for their first time dont understand how the game worls...Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...=pot%20monsterQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Like I said. I hate playing against new people. And I suck so that definition applies to me. I just like competent players...
I wouldn't mind for them to reopen the "foil loophole", and start printing some nice Reserved List goodies for Judges (or similar limited distribution). OTOH, I would definitely be very pissed off if they went crazy with reprints.
Anyway this is very idle speculation, because they won't reprint anything. Not only because of the RL, but because I'm becoming more and more convinced that their "end game" doesn't have much room for Legacy or Vintage, because the way those formats are played don't fit into their vision of how the game should proceed, and because Eternal players don't buy enough packs.
Maybe their eventual aim is to make Legacy and Vintage kind of like the Pokemon Unlimited format, where it isn't used for large events. Probably Legacy will be like Vintage; GenCon and Europe only, but nothing else sponsored by WotC.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorwinB
Too bad.
It's a b.s. idea in my opinion that the reserved list exists.
1) Beta, alpha, and unlimited cards will still be worth a piss load of money.
2) More people will be able to play eternal formats without selling their souls.
3) Wizards will make a bunch more money than they would for not reprinting.
4) It's fucking cardboard.
5) New art!
The only people that don't want the reserved list dropped are people that will be super butt hurt because they had paid 1000 dollars for a single dual land and people that dumb shouldn't be able to breed.
...or this. However have you seen Gatecrash? :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Amazing, you can penalize 80% of all smartphone, tablet pc's, TV's, fucking batteries and sandwich-toster if that is real *facepalm*Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Ok, stupid me. I already know that some people tried to put a trademark on certain words/phrases there. Why expect some sanity...
I understand what you mean, however, when i quoted you i probably meant something else with "restrictive entry". Legacy has a whole other feel than other formats. Mainly because the players are more mature. The population playing legacy is often older because a lot of money is needed to enter the format. This makes legacy tournaments often more fun to go to IMO. The price barrier and nature of the format makes it so that not every random player can jump onto the legacy train. It kind of filters out he player base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
That doesn't mean i don't want the prices to lower. Prices are insane now. I thought i already payed much when i paid 60 for my Tundra's. Certainly if i look at the poor fellows in America, man those prices are insaaaaane there.
Remember that wizard uses eternal staples as dollar bills to pay judges
That lawsuit involved 1) a loaded plaintiff, and 2) alleged damages worth billions of dollars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
It's hard enough getting the justice system to recognize the value of Magic cards at all. Private actors that don't have massive disposable incomes trying to sue a company for revising its own policy on the basis that their Magic cards lost value, real or speculative? Yeah, good luck with that.
Yeah, there's no real incentive for Wizards to support Legacy and Vintage. It's too resource-intensive to design for these formats given the low returns; they'll spend a whole bunch of time trying (and likely failing) to design good Eternal cards or cards that won't break the format. Look at how badly they screwed up with Misstep. And every player-hour spent playing Vintage/Legacy is an hour not spent playing Standard/Limited, the big revenue driver formats. They've already got EDH as the, "Hey guys, your old cards still have value!" format...they don't need Legacy/Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorwinB
But I do think they have something else guiding their policy on the Reserve List besides a method to quietly snuff out Legacy/Vintage as serious formats. Why? Thunder Spirit. I bet in nearly every set, and every core set, R&D would love a 1WW Flying, First Strike 2/2 in Limited, but the Reserve List cockblocks them. Seems likely that if the Reserve List was nothing but a "screw Legacy/Vintage" institution they would have violated it just for this...but they never have.
There are some other factors that lead me to believe keeping the list around isn't just because "well, Legacy doesn't make us money like Standard does." Such as:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend
1) Getting rid of the list doesn't mean they have to reprint anything on it. Mana Drain isn't on the list, it's never been reprinted. They could get rid of the list and never reprint anything on it. So why keep themselves bound? They could stand to make some money off of it without really giving any "true" support to Legacy (e.g. putting the cards in very limited edition stuff like that Commander's Aresenal)
2) Why get rid of the promo loophole?
3) Why create Modern, which ultimately has the same strikes against it as Legacy? It's also a lot harder to develop for than Standard (supposedly, they don't even try), it also can potentially take people away from Standard/Limited, etc.
4) According to Mark Rosewater, they won't be doing things like Reverberate in the future (that is, things that aren't technically violations). Fork barely sees play in Legacy and isn't worth much, so why do that?
We can really only speculate what their reasoning is, but I really don't think it's "hey, this makes it so we don't have to support Legacy" for the above reasons.
What about competent players that aren't loaded? I'm sure there are ~17 year olds that are really good at this game but don't have thousands of dollars to make a mana base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Is that true? If it is then i'm okay with not retracting the reserved list.Quote:
Originally Posted by joretapo
Thats rough. I am a college student who sucks at this game and I choose to spend my very limited funds to play legacy. Like I said, I think prices are a bit high at the moment, but as many have said, this game is a luxury and not everyone is going to be able to afford it. I want more people to be able to play legacy and I wouldnt mind if my few staples that I own were worth less if it meant that our Wednesday night legacy tourney got ten more people every week, but I also want to play against people that I dont need to explain every interaction to.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
How does "Wizards gives promo cards to judges" lead to the conclusion of "Reserved List is okay"?Quote:
Originally Posted by baghdadbob
I'm not seeing any logical connection between these two statements.
All Judge foils in the last three years have been non-reserved cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by baghdadbob
You're going to have to re-read what I quoted guy because that's not even close to what he said. He said "eternal staples" which to me means duals/power 9.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
I did read what he said. He was talking about promo cards for judges. Which is what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by baghdadbob
That's an assumption you made, not what he said.Quote:
He said "eternal staples" which to me means duals/power 9.
But sure, let's make sure we specify that eternal staples bit. "Judges get promos cards that are sometimes staples in eternal formats" does not lead to "reserved list is fine." You still haven't offered any connecting logic between these two rather unrelated statements.
That's because I misunderstood the guy and like you said assumed incorrectly. I read eternal staples and my mind went to duals and p9, now that I know that is not true I retract my statement. Can we still be friends or would you rather step on my balls some more?
I would like it if they abolished the reserved list. I would not mind at all if my collection was worth less anyways. I'd guess i don't speak for most people because I'm 13 and play mono red goblins. :P
Oh, and TES, but that thing has like 3 dual lands in it.