[SCD] True-Name Nemesis

This thread is about the Commander 2013 Identity Nemesis card.
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{1UU}
Creature — Merfolk Rogue
As Identity Nemesis enters the battlefield, choose a player.
Identity Nemesis has protection from that player. (This creature cannot be blocked, targeted, damaged or enchanted by a source controlled by that player.)
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I invite many of the excellent contributors to this site to comment on the below from a (competitive) Legacy point of view:
- Which existing decks are benefiting for this card, which are suffering
- Which cards (single cards or typology of cards) are benefiting for this card, which are removed
- How is the metagame affected: specifically aggro, control and combo
- How do you feel about this new mechanic (protection from that player)
- Any spare deck list?

I post my answers tomorrow.
I feel this card is a metagame changer with long-term implications and innovative approaches.

From my point of view, this card is dumb, boring while noninteractive, shows poor design, but nonetheless seems very powerful. I don't know why blue needed another evasive 3-power-creature... This card will be strong in decks which can capitalize on it's ability to withstand most removal and go directly to the throat. Stoneblade (Esper, BWR) comes to mind as well as tempo decks. Merfolk could use this guy to compensate their weakness to nonblue decks with big creatures.

The design is strange for EDH and clearly geared toward eternal play (a product full of multiplayer-based cards and we get one that is terrible in multiplayer...). Ignoring that, I think the card is about as good as Vendilion Clique. You trade hand disruption and flash for nigh-unkillableness with the small bonus of a more relevant creature type. I like the card paired with Stoneforge Mystic as those two together (with Jitte, ofc) mean lights out for most fair decks. One problem is the decrease in viability and popularity of Stoneblade and I don't think this guy helps making strides towards bringing that deck pack. It might be good in 4c Delver and/or Shardless but without Jitte it pretty much is a dumb creature. I think, however, that Clique offers a lot vs. combo decks and that this guy does nothing of the sort.

My overall reaction is tempered annoyance. My evaluation is a potential player, but definitely not format-defining.

Can you imagine how much this is going to cost? Ooze wasn't a 4-of and it costed a lot, this is going straight into Merfolk and probably going to spawn some other archetypes.

I don't like this card at all, and I could see it being banned. Not because it's going to be broken in Legacy. But because it's unintuitive, unfun, uninteractive and just plain boring. It is just a card that belongs in 4-player EDH where it actually makes sense like the Join Forces mechanic or the "hate auras".

I could see the ability being protection from spell the player casts, but giving it protection from creatures and effects from creatures of that players controls is just stupid.

For the power level, the card is unfortunately overpowered and will have a big impact on the format imo. Clear 4-off in many decks. Blocks Goyfs, carries Jitte, blocks Jitte'd creatures, blocks Batterskull, trumps Jace, pitches to FoW, is a Merfolk. A 3 mana 3/1 functional Progenitus is quite retarded.

For the design: This is the most unfun and uncreative card of all time. Hexproof + unblockable is retarded. The color choice makes no sense whatsoever. I hate it a lot.

It has all the advantages of hexproof and then some.

Its best use will probably be some kind of Stoneblade package. It's solid in Merfolk as well, but the ability to unequivocally swing with a Batterskull or Sword of Fire/Ice with little-to-no chance of retribution removes most of the remaining risk of assembling an Equipment Voltron.

It's more answerable outside Merfolk since it may not be surrounded by a horde to protect it from -X/-X effects or Edicts. The majority of answers to it are typically not regarded as good cards in Legacy though -- you gonna run Infest/Mutilate in Grixis Control to stomp this guy? What are you taking out? Doesn't that wreck your board too?

I don't like him. But I would play the everloving shit out of him. He's a fantastic target for fat pants of all varieties; Auras, equipment, whatever. He blocks all day all the time. No Swords, no Bolt, no incidental damage can reach him. Playable answers are like... Terminus, Golgari Charm (outside of a Merfolk shell where there are Lords for days), Supreme Verdict. Maybe Moat. Yeah.

I've been joking for a long time that with enough creep the only viable beaters are going to be hexproof + unblockable and that all viable removal is going to be untargeted or untargeted sweepers. Looks like we're well on our way. :tongue:

More Deed? Blue has Stifle.

Terminus?.... Vapor Snag?

Lili? Maybe you already have another dork.

I love this thing. Three turn clock with SoFI - just counter their win conditions or sweepers and ride it to victory?
Yes, it's dumb. However, we all know that's where this game is headed anyway.

Personally, I think it's going to be easier to design around this guy than thought. Forget about jamming it into existing decks. Just make UG Hexproof with tempo/permission and win.

1) Disrupt
2) Swing
3) ?????
4) Profit

Wonder how they did come to make a creature with minimal interaction after players hating creatures like Geist and stalker...

Its a killer card and will be house in merfolk but otherwise its essentially a 2 card combo (+ equipment) to really be frightening and one that doesnt outright win the game. Its a mini-me progenitus.. Personally id rather just cast NO.
Hmmm or maybe both.

Edit- NM the picture sucks..

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...2&d=1381961030

I feel like this should be Blue/White. Hexproof and unblockable are distinctly Blue, but outside of Energy Field (which I'd think most people would agree is not an example of stuff Blue should be able to do) there's no real precedent for how it prevents all damage to itself from sources opponents control.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

I feel like this should be Blue/White. Hexproof and unblockable are distinctly Blue, but outside of Energy Field (which I'd think most people would agree is not an example of stuff Blue should be able to do) there's no real precedent for how it prevents all damage to itself from sources opponents control.

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Hey waiter! Someone put some troll in my progenitus!

Hate that blue are geting so much aggressive stuff. Just like at the standard monoblue devotion deck atm..

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Its a killer card and will be house in merfolk but otherwise its essentially a 2 card combo (+ equipment) to really be frightening and one that doesnt outright win the game. Its a mini-me progenitus.. Personally id rather just cast NO.
Hmmm or maybe both.

Edit- NM the picture sucks..

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...2&d=1381961030

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But it's not--It's a Creeping Tar Pit that doesn't cost mana to activate that doesn't die to anything. Seriously, what the fuck?

I'd say for once RnD is being clever about shit. That card is perfect for moving players toward Merfolk and Stoneblade and away from RUG. RUG won't play anything that costs three, but this card is excellent in the control mirror, and its especially awesome with Quirion Ranger, or something that lets you untap it to block. I see this guy being an excellent a win condition in some fringe decks like Stasis, that seriously needs something like an evasive 3 drop that can't really die. Also, in those evasive/pump decks he will certainly find a place. Note that you can't 2 for 1 this guy so they actually have to focus your pump spells instead.

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Originally Posted by DrHealex

Hey waiter! Someone put some troll in my progenitus!

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...huh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kich867

But it's not--It's a Creeping Tar Pit that doesn't cost mana to activate that doesn't die to anything.

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Doesn't die to anything? Did Supreme Verdict suddenly up and disappear?

I mean, sure, there are very few ways to get rid of it, but it does die to some things even in a 2-player game.

So, 3/1 beater with hexproof, evasion, indefinite chumpbblocking and a relevant creature type? I mean it's -maybe- a 2-of in Merfolk and RUG since it's a relatively implacable clock but other than that I don't really see it rocking the format. I mean it's not as if people don't already play edicts, taxes, chasms, global sweepers and a host of other shit in order to circumvent non standard threats such as this, and Vendillion Clique still has more utility for most of the benefits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kich867

But it's not--It's a Creeping Tar Pit that doesn't cost mana to activate that doesn't die to anything. Seriously, what the fuck?

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Don't forget it can Moat their biggest man also .... and barring trample takes no damage. Nice Jitte. Nice Maze.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

...huh?

Doesn't die to anything? Did Supreme Verdict suddenly up and disappear?

I mean, sure, there are very few ways to get rid of it, but it does die to some things even in a 2-player game.

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I'm generally of the opinion that people on internet forums know and understand, comprehend and can evaluate hyperbole when they see it. Progenitus can die, it doesn't make it easy or reasonable to attempt. Supreme Verdict basically did go away, at least in my meta there are no copies of it and I'm not even sure why miracles is still in the deck to beat section given how badly BGx midrange decks--which are popular right now, shit all over that archetype so bad it's silly.

It's not that it's impossible to beat it's that it's unreasonably difficult to do it. The decks that play it can and will stall the game for the ~6 turns it takes to kill you, probably fewer with anything else they can spare to deal you damage. Lingering Souls produces chump blockers for days, Snapcaster Plowshares can run you out of threats, stoneforge mystic can make it absolutely ridiculous.

This card is really good. But I won't call it format defining. It will see play especially in merfolk. But merfolk already has quite a number of 3 drops. What merfolk needs are better 1 drops like cursecatcher.

In other legacy blue decks, it has to fight geist and Clique for spots. These 2 creatures are the closest competitors. UWR tempo plays 2 geist and would they swap it for this new guy? Geist swings for double but is terrible defensively and has no evasion. However for an aggressive deck like tempo, if you are on the defensive you are fucked anyway. I'd still take geist in aggressive decks.

Ur/rug delver can't afford 3 drops so no spot for the new merfolk there. Though since nimble mongoose is total crap now, alternative beaters are needed. Maybe a Grim/new merfolk split replacing mongoose? Next is stoneblade which runs 2-3 cliques. Unfortunately clique is important in stoneblade for its combo/control busting role. Unfortunately for this new folk, it does nothing against combo. Stoneblade has so many 3 drops to choose from like lingering souls and vindicate. The merfolk is facing some tough competition since its basically a hard to kill beater.

It reminds me a little of thrun. It has its uses but won't be format defining because it lacks a disruptive element. That's why geist doesn't see as much play as say Kotr and Clique. Kotr fetches wastelands and Clique messes with hands. In legacy combo is a thing and 3 drops really need to do something against combo.

Who would have thought the day would come when we needed combo to balance the power of creatures.

What's the mail to insult R&D ?

It's a lot like Notion Thief - great in its own way and just wins some games all on its own, but it has very tough opposition for slots.

Probably at its absolute strongest in games where you can stick a Jitte on it, but its ability to act as pseudo-removal in Merfolk and then close the game out shouldn't be ignored, either.

This card disappoints me, even as someone with a almost totally pimped merfolk deck. Does a hexproof, unblockable, prevent all damage card really need to exist in mono-blue?

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

This card disappoints me, even as someone with a almost totally pimped merfolk deck. Does a hexproof, unblockable, prevent all damage card really need to exist in mono-blue?

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Tell me this? DOes a 1 CMC 3/2 flying belong in mono blue?

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Originally Posted by Infinitium

So, 3/1 beater with hexproof, evasion, indefinite chumpbblocking and a relevant creature type? I mean it's -maybe- a 2-of in Merfolk and RUG since it's a relatively implacable clock but other than that I don't really see it rocking the format. I mean it's not as if people don't already play edicts, taxes, chasms, global sweepers and a host of other shit in order to circumvent non standard threats such as this, and Vendillion Clique still has more utility for most of the benefits.

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Which one of those cards does RUG play?

Yeah people play loads of those cards! That's why RUG play Nimble Mongoose, because it's so easy to kill.

The kinds of cards that kill this card aren't the top removal of the format (StP and Lightning Bolt). Edict effects aren't garanteed to kill, as you can just have another guy. Sweepers are either expensive or slow, stuff like Deed or Explosives can either be countered or Stifled.

Really should have been white, and probably at WWW to at least give it some downside. As it is, I think the card will be problematic because the answers to it are just not efficient to be running in the first place except in a few decks. But I'm hoping for the card to dominate in the next few months to the extent of attracting the banhammer.

There are many ways to interact with this card that are available to us in Legacy: Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Daze, Force of Will, Llawan Cephalid Empress, Supreme Verdict and other Wrath of God effects, Terminus, Moat, Runed Halo, Sphere of Safety, Liliana of the Veil, Innocent Blood, Smallpox, Edicts, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale + mana denial, Glacial Chasm, Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, Engineered Plague, Golgari Charm, Infest, Pernicious Deed, Night of Souls Betrayal, Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast (while it's on the stack, of course) and a whole host of crappier stuff like No Mercy, Mutilate, Ostracize, Ratchet Bomb, etc.

Frankly that's a pretty big list. And it's bad against combo. I agree that the card is dumb, but our format can definitely handle it.

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Originally Posted by mrjumbo03

Really should have been white, and probably at WWW to at least give it some downside. As it is, I think the card will be problematic because the answers to it are just not efficient to be running in the first place except in a few decks. But I'm hoping for the card to dominate in the next few months to the extent of attracting the banhammer.

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ban hammer already!?!?!

Legacy can adjust to this guy EASILY. its only a 3/1...i can see black decks packing more EP since tribal will be making a hit.

Goblins can still beat merfolk

Im having a hard time making any sort of honest evaluation of this card's power.

I just cant get over how dumb the design is.

I think that "protection from chosen player" may be one of the most poorly designed mechanics to ever be printed on a legal magic card.

It sounds like something out of an Un set to me.

The format can obviously handle it when you consider it in a vacuum; it's a 3 mana 3 power creature. The question is, can the format handle the pile-up of rampant stupidity from the designers as time goes on.

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Originally Posted by Octopusman

I've been joking for a long time that with enough creep the only viable beaters are going to be hexproof + unblockable and that all viable removal is going to be untargeted or untargeted sweepers. Looks like we're well on our way. :tongue:

More Deed? Blue has Stifle.

Terminus?.... Vapor Snag?

Lili? Maybe you already have another dork.

I love this thing. Three turn clock with SoFI - just counter their win conditions or sweepers and ride it to victory?
Yes, it's dumb. However, we all know that's where this game is headed anyway.

Personally, I think it's going to be easier to design around this guy than thought. Forget about jamming it into existing decks. Just make UG Hexproof with tempo/permission and win.

1) Disrupt
2) Swing
3) ?????
4) Profit

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This. UG with Noble Hierarch and stuff? This guy is a tempo decks dream.

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Originally Posted by FieryBalrog

The format can obviously handle it when you consider it in a vacuum; it's a 3 mana 3 power creature. The question is, can the format handle the pile-up of rampant stupidity from the designers as time goes on.

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Pretty summed up.
I hope that this card won't have much impact, it has really stupid design. I don't fear it too much, after all it's three-mana drop, but once it gets Jitte or anything similar, games will be quite annoying. At least Prog kills in two swings.

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Originally Posted by Tao

For the design: This is the most unfun and uncreative card of all time. Hexproof + unblockable is retarded. The color choice makes no sense whatsoever. I hate it a lot.

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Anyone that defends this card should be shot in the face with cannons.

Imagine combining this card with 4 phantasmal images :tongue::tongue::tongue: SICK:cry: WTF!!!:mad:

{1UU} Dumb and dumber
Creature — Merfolk Rogue
As Dumb and dumber enters the battlefield, choose a player.
Dumb and dumber has protection from that player. (This creature cannot be blocked, targeted, damaged or enchanted by a source controlled by that player.)
P/T
12/1

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Originally Posted by Wanderlust

There are many ways to interact with this card that are available to us in Legacy: Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Daze, Force of Will, Llawan Cephalid Empress, Supreme Verdict and other Wrath of God effects, Terminus, Moat, Runed Halo, Sphere of Safety, Liliana of the Veil, Innocent Blood, Smallpox, Edicts, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale + mana denial, Glacial Chasm, Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, Engineered Plague, Golgari Charm, Infest, Pernicious Deed, Night of Souls Betrayal, Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast (while it's on the stack, of course) and a whole host of crappier stuff like No Mercy, Mutilate, Ostracize, Ratchet Bomb, etc.

Frankly that's a pretty big list. And it's bad against combo. I agree that the card is dumb, but our format can definitely handle it.

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I hate this card so much. It's so ridiculous! Unblockable, better than Hexproof, aggressive stats, and it's obviously going to be huge because of interactions with lords. "Can't be damaged or enchanted by a source controlled by that player"? WTF.

By this time, it's painfully clear that WOTC
A) Doesn't test for eternal formats and doesn't particularly care about what happens to them
B) Consistently juices up blue more than other colors
C) Is determined to push creatures until they make non-creature spells pale in comparison

Edit: This card is designed to minimize interaction between the players, which on its face is bad design. Of the few ways that exist to kill this thing, pretty much all of them are counterable. I can't believe someone suggested Smallpox as if that was at all based in reality. Have you ever tried to play Smallpox against a Vial deck? It's the worst. Plus, this isn't going to be the only dude in play, so have fun killing Cursecatcher or something. Also, "Wrath of God effects"? Let's be real: Terminus and Supreme Verdict are the only Wrath effects that matter here. Are you really getting off a Damnation against Daze and Cursecatcher before their critical turn?

Final Anglo name may be True-Name Nemesis

None. It's only good in corner cases in merfolk, and that deck already folds to a terminus.

Have to say that this is pretty silly as far as these things go. The decks where it will likely see play are Merfolk, Deathblade, and possibly some new UGW Geist/Nemesis + a bunch of pump spells concoction. It might even see play in RUG (and other tempo) SBs because it seems pretty beastly in the mirror. Overall, I doubt it'll warp the format any more than Geist already does. It is pretty damn good though.

Lets' all play terminus or combo !
Problem is solved right ?

#FamousLastWords

This is not going to be a cheap card before BOM Main Event which is one day after Commander 2013 release date.