[Deck] Chalice of the Dark Order

Chalice of the Void / Natural Order / Eldrazi

http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd8...eOfTheVoid.jpghttp://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd8...turalOrder.jpghttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...3452&type=card

wtf are these cards doing together?

Why Play This Deck?

This deck is a blend of multiple decks, Sylvan Plug, Turbo Eldrazi, and Maverick. The combination offsets the weaknesses of each individual with the strengths of the others. The deck has a great early game that doesn't get blown out by combo, and an incredibly strong end game.

After lots of testing and outlining the Shell, I was able to identify variable slots that could be adapted to different existing decks to offset the decks weakness. Although I personally prefer Dark depths it appears that the turbo eldrazi inclusion offsets the decks weaknesses almost perfectly. Chalice and NO are great early game plays. GSZ enables a lot of consistency. Eldrazi, is one of the best END games available. Once you get to the critical mass of casting Emrakul, you almost always win. Primeval Titan is perfect for buying time and sustaining life where the dark depths version failed. Getting Glacial chasm / glimmer posts are ideal here.

The deck has access to T1 Chalice of the Void, T2 natural order, T2 KOTR. I'm looking at those T2 plays and thinking that the deck can reasonably cast chalice of the void on t1 or t2 and still has multiple really good plays on T2 without it. Also, the deck isn't hindered by chalice significantly either because of only 3 crop rotations. Even without ancient tomb in opening you can always crop rotate into it since crop will be dead after it hits anyways. It's very nice to have 3 different ways to victory because you never really get shut out by anything.

Card choices

Knight of the reliquary: great GSZ target, great tutor for Eldrazi and dark depths lands, excellent aggro option if necessary. Also utility bojuka, karakas, maze from board
Primeval Titan: GSZ and NO target gets Eldrazi lands or depths combo, or beats
Qasali Pridemage: art/enchant removal although reclamation sage might be better... Pridemage is t2 GSZ target though but slightly harder to cast naturally. ultimately better against omni / sneak because you can cast him preemptively and put pressure on them while they scramble to work around him.

Natural Order Targets

progenitus: great vs decks with blockers / removal such as D&T. Excellent card to race with.
Terrastadon: smashes targets like equipment, ensnaring bridge, planes walkers, and lands depending on your situation.
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed: just wins vs combo decks, worst cast it cost them 6 dmg to remove it with a swords... which is unlikely if i have a chalice out.

The Shell

I’ve broken the deck down to the bare minimums required to keep the Chalice of the void aspect reasonably playable T1 and maintain enough consistency through the use of GSZ to warrant playing the deck over others. The reason I did this was to allow other players to get creative with the deck. Clearly here i’ve decided to go with Eldrazi, but have included my older Dark Depths version as well. Feel free to post other variations using this shell that you think might work better.

19 Total Variable Slots

8 Can be anything
4 Creatures
7 Lands

Creatures - 12
4 Variable Slots

1 Artifact / Enchantment removal GSZ target (Qasali Pridemage / Reclamation Sage)
3 Natural Order Targets (Progenitus, Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, Terastodon)
4 Primary Focus Creature (must be tutorable with GSZ like Knight of the Reliquary)

Spells - 16
4 Chalice of the Void (hozes a lot of decks right now)
4 Natural Order (natural inclusion because of ancient tomb and Green creatures)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (creates consistency and accelerates with Dryad Arbor)
2 Sylvan Library (can run up to 4 depending on how effectively you can use those cards)
2 Mox Diamond (likely the best option for acceleration / mana fixing depending on how questionable the mana base is)

Lands - 24
7 Variable Slots

2 Dryad Arbor (for GSZ and Natural Order, 2 in case you draw 1)
7 Fetchlands (shuffle effects for Sylvan library)
4 Colored Mana Producing Lands (the absolute minimum amount with at least 1 basic)
4 Ancient Tomb (enables T1 Chalice T2 NO, and access GSZ)

Sideboard - 15
SB: 9 Variable Slots

Playing with NO and GSZ you are likely to want the following in the board.
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Trinisphere



Current Version’s of Deck updated 12/26/14

//Creatures - 13
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Primeval Titan
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus

//Spells - 19
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Library

//Lands - 28
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Willow Satyr
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 1 Hornet Queen

//Others for Consideration
SB: 1 Bane of Progress
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Stoic Angel
SB: 1 Phantom Nishoba
SB: 1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Cards that are being tested
tower of the magistrate
willow satyr
sigarda, host of herons
Bane of Progress

Cards for Consideration
hornet nest
Life from the Loam
Maze of Ith
Choke
Song of the Dryads
for the sideboard
ratchet bomb
ancient grudge
Anafenza, the Foremost

Cards that have been cut
Titania, Protector of Argoth
eternal witness
elderscale wurm
scroll rack
scryb ranger
courser of kruphix

scroll rack was not really generating any card advantage, required mana to use it, and on an empty hand it's terrible. it doesn't allow you to reload your hand fast.
scryb ranger has limited use because there are not enough forests / plains to make use of that many activations of KOTR
titania was so expensive i never searched for her and when i wanted to i had enough to just search for ruric. also ruric is castable under moon more easily.
courser was just lack luster because games don't drag on very long with this deck.
elderscale was too limited and i did not find myself searching for him as much as I thought i would.
eternal witness was lack luster. Unless i wanted to get NO back and cast it the following turn this didn't have many uses.

Past Iterations with changes in bold

//Creatures - 12
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Primeval Titan
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

//Spells - 19
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Crop Rotation
2 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond

//Lands - 29
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
1 Plains
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Vesuva


First Version

//Creatures - 12
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Primeval Titan
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

//Spells - 19
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Crop Rotation
2 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond

//Lands - 29
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva


Older Dark Depths Version

Creatures 13
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Stingerfling Spider
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vampire Hexmage

Spells - 19
2 Sylvan Library
3 Crop Rotation
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Mox Diamond

Lands - 28
2 Dryad Arbor

1 Karakas
1 Wasteland
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Forest
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard -15
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Willow Satyr
SB: 3 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog


*Removed matchup analysis and side boarding strategies because it was out of date

Turn the 4 Vampire Hexmages into something else would be the first move I think. Yes, great combo with Dark Depths and UToY but also requires 2 black to cast in a list that just doesn't want that kind of commitment. Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, Cabal Therapy?

When I played a similar list living wish worked wonders glueing it all together trimming from the knight and hex mage slots. Chalice leaves you with some wonky hands that make life frustrating. Its worth noting that one to two cavern of souls on shaman let you deploy deathrites and hexmage with no fear of your own chalice or counter magic.

OMG teh name of the deck reflects the card choices in it!!zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


Okay, a couple things. It's a creative idea but this deck, if this were chemistry, is like a very unstable reaction like nitro glycerin or something. The very things that you're trying to win with I feel like are gonna' be the death of you. Your mana base is so fragile and you're trying to win with Depths so you incorporate Crop Rotation, and you're also trying to run Chalices, but Chalice 1 counters crop so now you're stuck in a situation where you might want to chalice 1 but your stuck with crop in your hand and a crappy mana base trying to work your way out. Some of the other things that would bother me is that Chalice 2 counters 8 cards in your deck, and the general horrible color matching with double black and double green. You do run GSZ but that might be a little nerve racking, if you get spell pierced you might straight up lose the game if you can't produce the mana you need. All I'm saying is I think you might be relying way too much on one card to make your deck even work.

Suggestions, I really think you need Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam for mana fixing and being able to pull off the maneuvers you're trying to do. I also think you just need to do Chalice or crop rotation not both, pick your poison. My 2-cents

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

When I played a similar list living wish worked wonders glueing it all together trimming from the knight and hex mage slots. Chalice leaves you with some wonky hands that make life frustrating. Its worth noting that one to two cavern of souls on shaman let you deploy deathrites and hexmage with no fear of your own chalice or counter magic.

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The issue with replacing hexmages with living wish is that living wish is slow, and the deck wants to be fast. The beat down plan is mainly a last resort. I do agree cavern would be nice but i wouldn't want to weaken the mana base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Turn the 4 Vampire Hexmages into something else would be the first move I think. Yes, great combo with Dark Depths and UToY but also requires 2 black to cast in a list that just doesn't want that kind of commitment. Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, Cabal Therapy?

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yeah I've considered them. cabal therapy is defiantly out of the question. The deck doesn't really want to add any more 1 mana spells because it prefers chalice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass

OMG teh name of the deck reflects the card choices in it!!zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Okay, a couple things. It's a creative idea but this deck, if this were chemistry, is like a very unstable reaction like nitro glycerin or something. The very things that you're trying to win with I feel like are gonna' be the death of you. Your mana base is so fragile and you're trying to win with Depths so you incorporate Crop Rotation, and you're also trying to run Chalices, but Chalice 1 counters crop so now you're stuck in a situation where you might want to chalice 1 but your stuck with crop in your hand and a crappy mana base trying to work your way out. Some of the other things that would bother me is that Chalice 2 counters 8 cards in your deck, and the general horrible color matching with double black and double green. You do run GSZ but that might be a little nerve racking, if you get spell pierced you might straight up lose the game if you can't produce the mana you need. All I'm saying is I think you might be relying way too much on one card to make your deck even work.

Suggestions, I really think you need Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam for mana fixing and being able to pull off the maneuvers you're trying to do. I also think you just need to do Chalice or crop rotation not both, pick your poison. My 2-cents

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having crop rotation in hand with a chalice out has not proven to be an issue. Also in the event that opponent destroys chalice, you can use crop to steal a game. Crop rotation is so important i can't really see playing without it.

I could see playing mox diamond useful but how many? Using loam complicates things by flipping natural order or natural order targets into grave. I think the deck can actually make good use of chalice in its place. Although crucible can be destroyed loam gets removed a lot from grave too.

what do you suggest cutting to make room for moxes? lands? maybe 2 fetches?

also, has anyone tried shuffling the deck up or drawing practice hands?

I can say I have not tested it specifically but when I was heavily developing it about a year ago I ended up concluding that the no package was fragile and offered up a lot of poor unfixable draws and cut it in place of lotv and helm. Youd be surprised how many turn one scoops you get from an angry opponent staring at a turn one leyline and chalice. Ill post the list when I get home for my "voidmage" deck if you're interested. The abundance of art/ enchantments gave people problems with so many dead removal cards game one and so few relevant cards to bring in game two.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

I can say I have not tested it specifically but when I was heavily developing it about a year ago I ended up concluding that the no package was fragile and offered up a lot of poor unfixable draws and cut it in place of lotv and helm. Youd be surprised how many turn one scoops you get from an angry opponent staring at a turn one leyline and chalice. Ill post the list when I get home for my "voidmage" deck if you're interested. The abundance of art/ enchantments gave people problems with so many dead removal cards game one and so few relevant cards to bring in game two.

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ya im not sure how chalice and leyline really go hand in hand...?

although i do find sometimes i get clunky hands because of no i think it ultimately serves its purpose cause of the versatility... I'm running progen, ruric, terrastadon, and elderwurm.

id still be interested in seeing your list tho and maybe how your deck evolved.

They dont go hand in hand but most decks have trouble with one or the other. Reanimator being the only thing that really shits its pants sitting across from both on turn one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

They dont go hand in hand but most decks have trouble with one or the other. Reanimator being the only thing that really shits its pants sitting across from both on turn one.

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yeah but then u have to run 4 helms cause the deck doesn't tutor artifacts... idk id have to see ur list. 4x helm 4x leyline vs 4x no 4 creatures .... i think the no plan results in more victories because it can't be hated against... and S&T can hurt itself with me having beefy creatures too.



I've cut scryb ranger and witness for 2 mox diamonds. I also cut something else and have crucible in the deck. Not really liking the crucible i haven't drawn it much but it seems like it should be a GSZ target instead.

I've tested quite a bit today and being able to fall back on NO really helps when dark depths isn't an option due to swords / karakas.

contrary to what you would think from looking at the list I am not suffering from mana issues.

One thing from my testing that may help you is the inclusion of scroll rack. without brainstorm I found myself wanting a way to put stranded fatties back in the deck and dig for answers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

One thing from my testing that may help you is the inclusion of scroll rack. without brainstorm I found myself wanting a way to put stranded fatties back in the deck and dig for answers.

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This is a wonderful idea in a list with 4 Green Sun's Zenith, Chalice of the Void and fetchlands. Not sure if it will be too clunky but it's a great idea. The card I always want in this type of list is Brainstorm and it just won't fit as a splash.

Its actually really sweet with life from the loam but the scroll is an absolute nightmare to resolve on cockatrice...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

One thing from my testing that may help you is the inclusion of scroll rack. without brainstorm I found myself wanting a way to put stranded fatties back in the deck and dig for answers.

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you answered a question I had but forgot to ask on here. I was getting frustrated with ending up with 1-2 fatties in my hand that were kinda pointless. This is a really amazing idea.

It also makes it so you cannot lose to effects that attempt to deck you as long as you have at least 1 card in your hand. JTMS, painter, & helm combo. Even though you need a decent board position sometimes all you need is 1 more attack.

With this inclusion, there has to be ways to fill your hand to really abuse scroll rack. Any suggestions? Land tax is probably out of the question since it cost 1 and the current manabase couldn't support it. Miracles work well with it and so might dark confidant. Loam like you mentioned has potential, but i'd prefer to avoid relying on the grave.

I'd probably also run 1 Courser of Kruphix to compliment scroll rack and because its just good in general.

Confidant is a major no go with all the fatties. Aside from loam I never found anything viable in junk colors for a brief stint I cut white for red for other reasons and the only janky idea I have in red is reforge the soul but that is entirely too cute im sure.



My final takaways from the last list I had were the deck earned a lot of free wins from playing main deck sideboard cards. Plan a was always helm leyline with hiding the depths package as much as possible. The list was very heavey on artifact control with tangle wires and ensaring bridges. Game two most opponent who hadnt seen the depths sided out removal for art/enchantment hate and needle effects which left the NO plan open to run wild on an opponent who unkowingly missboarded vs the transformational plan. Ultimatly i abandoned the deck because variance is a killer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

Confidant is a major no go with all the fatties. Aside from loam I never found anything viable in junk colors for a brief stint I cut white for red for other reasons and the only janky idea I have in red is reforge the soul but that is entirely too cute im sure.



My final takaways from the last list I had were the deck earned a lot of free wins from playing main deck sideboard cards. Plan a was always helm leyline with hiding the depths package as much as possible. The list was very heavey on artifact control with tangle wires and ensaring bridges. Game two most opponent who hadnt seen the depths sided out removal for art/enchantment hate and needle effects which left the NO plan open to run wild on an opponent who unkowingly missboarded vs the transformational plan. Ultimatly i abandoned the deck because variance is a killer.

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yeah i'd really like to see a list when you get a chance. its very hard to envision because i probably would build it very different than what you've described so far.

Ill find a list of what I finally settled on but its going to be after the NO package got the ax. All other versions died when a beer decided my motherboard and hard drive were thirsty.

Did some decent play testing last night. here are the results. the deck needs bojuka bog in sideboard and needs to find a way to fit in courser of kruphix. Considering 5-2-1 losing to dragon stompy with 8 moon effects and all t1-t2 and my other loss was to pretty bad play decisions and opening hand keeps to landstill it faired pretty well. The sideboard could use a lot of work. I'd also like to find a way to include a 2 cmc target for gsz. not sure that tarmogoyf is correct.


here is the list i tested with. slightly diff from OP

4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Crop Rotation
2 Sylvan Library
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Scroll Rack

1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon

2 Mox Diamond

4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
3 Dark Depths
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Scrubland
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Bayou
1 Wasteland
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Savannah
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Rest in Peace





MUD - 2-0

G1: dont know what he's playing, until its too late. h lands kuldotha, i have to tutor for qasali to kill his kultotha. he lands back to back lodestones, and i miss a land drop and cant tutor for KOTR.

side in some +4 thought seizes -4 chalices + reclamation

G2: T1 mox, t2 kotr. he drops wurmcoil. t3 thoughtseize. he attacks, i kotr into a depths, make my token, block, and swing in 2 turns.

G3: mox bayou, t1 hexmage, topdeck Dark depths, make token t3, win T3

ANT - 2-0

G1: t1 gsz for dryad, t2 he probes me and duresses a sylvan library. T2 i see that hes got volcanic island and cast a duress so i put him on ant, which is correct. I top deck a natural order, and crop rotate into an ancient tomb. cast natural order, into ruric. he concedes.

thalia’s thought seizes go in from SB

t1 chalice, t2 thalia, he concedes with a bunch of 1 cmc in hand


Landstill - 0-2

G1: he lands standstill but i think i’ll draw out of it into a depths, but i don’t. 10 turns later i die to mishras.

G2: i keep hand with no colored mana but land t1 chalice. i end up not drawing any colored lands for 6 turns…

LANDS - 2-0

G1: t1 gsz he punishing fires. starts his loam engine with exploration and mana bond. i think he misplays and does tap me down, so i have access to 4 mana and NO into ruric. game over!

G2: t1 he exploratoions, t1 i mox diamond; t2 he play port, depths, loam. i drop a land and wait till dot to crop rotate into thespians stage and copy his depths. Rouge factor victory.

JUND: - 2-0

G1 he gets a slow start, i turn out a t4 marit lage token. even if he had a fast start it wouldn't have changed things

G2 follows in a similar fashion. Jund is pretty much a bye for dark depths combo.


Painter - 1-1-1
G1 : t1 blood moon followed up by t3 activation. sees my progenitus and we go to g2 after the draw.

G2: t1 chalice on 1, he t1 blood moons. no one plays anything for several turns, until he lands jaya and i scoop.

G3 t1 thoughtseize, take a pyro. t2 i fetch up a basic. t3 i stick a kotr, and he plays bridge. He establishes the combo but i abrupt decay. KOTR helps me stick a chalice at 3, and i tutor into dark depths combo and sweep it.

Turbo fog 2-0

chalice out his constant mists and win with Dark depths

g2 aburpt decay his isochron scepter and take the game

Dragon stompy - 0-2

t1 moon followed by magus magus. hatebear beatdown

g2: he goblin settlers my only forest, while im under blood moon. phyrexian revokers, my kotr, and eventually gets my mox diamond. im completely locked out of colored mana and scoop.


1 game vs miracles: he wins because i stack my deck incorrectly with scroll rack while he has a jace out. it cost me the game because he bottoms my thespian stage for the combo. chalice on1 keeps him off of lots of spells.


Here are some random matches i tested 4-2 on the whole group. 1 critical play mistake led to a match loss, and another led to a game loss. It's possible simply adding 1 goyf to either block or aggro can steal games fairly quickly.



Omni 2-0

G1: he show and tells omni with nothing to cast, i make token and swing on my turn.

G2, i stick an early quasi pridemage and beat down. he eventually show’s omni into play,

high tide 2-1

g1 he starts combing and i concede cause i dont care to see if he wiffs. he says he would have in in a tournament i would have had him play it out

g2, stick a chalice on one and walk to victory with dark depths

g3, thoughtseize a spiral, t2 kotr, t3 hexmage but he forces (which i expected). T4 crop rotate into combo, and stick a chalice. make token EOT and he dies.

RDW 2-0

G1 t3 chalice on 1, hexmage depths t4 and win. he's kinda got a slow start, but i play cautiously cause i see volcanic island.
G2 Early chalice on 1 follow up by natural order into ruric t3 seals the game.


RUG 1-2

G1 i lose this cause i make a play error. i have chalice on 1, he abrupt decays and i dont fetch in response. he stifles my fetch and i dont have green mana. i was holding crop rotation and had a stage in play. crop rotation would have won me that one. he closes it out with goyf

g2: early chalice on 1 keeps him off of stifle. t2 KOTR fends off goyfs and tutors depths FTW.

G3: hes on the play so i end up playing into a daze to try and keep up. we go back and forth wasteland stifle shenanigans with no threats out. I end up burning through my black sources so i cant cast hexmage. I end up drawing natural order but he has the force and closes it out with Goyf.

definitely should have won the match cause of g1 player error. it was cause i was playing fast and not thinking before agreeing to the plays. since it was not tournament i was very off guard.

MUD 2-1

G1: t2 no into progenitus, wins me the game
G2: he has early blight steel and im a turn slow on making my depths token
G3: t3 token steals the game as he casts kuldotha.

Enchantress - 0-2 wiff.

G1: i natural order into progenitus because I'm holding the terrastadon i want. terrastadon wins me the game because he's got 2 lands with wild growths. hit both lands, and 1 of my own wins…just didn't work out like htat. he elephant grasses my progenitus and helm combo’s me out.

G2 I player error again and it costs me the game. he casts suppression field with an elephant grass out. I have hexmage depths on board. in response i make my token even though i take note he probably has the oblivion ring with the 3 mana remaining from serra’s sanctum. had i of waited that turn and instead abrupt decay’s the elephant grass then made my token the following turn at end of turn i would have got it. he ends up locking me out and sigil of empty throne after a ton of turns…

Scryb Ranger.

Allows you to use KotR twice in a turn, which can do some interesting ramping for you at times, also allows you to attack with KotR and then untap him to make himself up to 3 bigger by searching for a wasteland that does another of your lands. Saves Dryad Arbor, Bayou and Savannah from Wasteland. If you were playing Deathrite Shaman would be additional tricks there too. Blocks Insectile Aberration and Vendilion Clique until they draw removal.

It's probably worth making the Vampire Hexmages into Deathrite Shamans. Make the Sylvan Library's Scryb Rangers. You have 4 GSZ and 4 Natural Order and neither of those cards plays off of either Vampire Hexmage or Sylvan Library. Both of them play off of DRS and Scryb Ranger.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth not necessary any more. Not sure if you need land in those spots with 22 aside from depths. Maybe a City of Traitors and the third Mox Diamond?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Scryb Ranger.

Allows you to use KotR twice in a turn, which can do some interesting ramping for you at times, also allows you to attack with KotR and then untap him to make himself up to 3 bigger by searching for a wasteland that does another of your lands. Saves Dryad Arbor, Bayou and Savannah from Wasteland. If you were playing Deathrite Shaman would be additional tricks there too. Blocks Insectile Aberration and Vendilion Clique until they draw removal.

It's probably worth making the Vampire Hexmages into Deathrite Shamans. Make the Sylvan Library's Scryb Rangers. You have 4 GSZ and 4 Natural Order and neither of those cards plays off of either Vampire Hexmage or Sylvan Library. Both of them play off of DRS and Scryb Ranger.

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I don't know if i can justify dropping the hexmages, they are just too valuable. i did end up cutting 1, but i do see that DRS and Scryb play fairly well with gsz and NO. issue with adding more DRS is that its CMC 1 so drawing them sux if i have a chalice out. also, its very rare that you want to gsz into a DRS especially since kotr feeds off of grave.

so how many rangers do you suggest? I had him in the deck originally and didn't like him all that much, but didn't really test a whole lot with him. i found that i didn't want to ever waste a GSZ for him really. I'll have to test with him again. There have been some other changes i've made that may make him more appealing since the last time i used it.

EDIT*** to address Urborg, its a really good card as a 2 of and i've been thinking to up it to 3 because i have never been disappointed to see it and find myself tutoring for it occasionally. Since that land count is actually very low in regards to searchable lands, it provides a way to use fetch lands after i've already searched up my 4 colored mana producing lands. its possible adding more bayous is appropriate but its very early in testing for me to have drawn conclusions about that. I do know that sometimes i wish i had another forest land to search for. but i am also very glad when i draw urborgs.


*** i also added more matches in my previous post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

I don't know if i can justify dropping the hexmages, they are just too valuable. i did end up cutting 1, but i do see that DRS and Scryb play fairly well with gsz and NO. issue with adding more DRS is that its CMC 1 so drawing them sux if i have a chalice out. also, its very rare that you want to gsz into a DRS especially since kotr feeds off of grave.

so how many rangers do you suggest? I had him in the deck originally and didn't like him all that much, but didn't really test a whole lot with him. i found that i didn't want to ever waste a GSZ for him really. I'll have to test with him again. There have been some other changes i've made that may make him more appealing since the last time i used it.

*** i also added more matches in my previous post.

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I'm thinking 2 Scryb Rangers if you put in the Deathrites and 1 if not. Maybe a 2nd in the SB if you choose not to put in the Deathrites. DRS is probably the 2nd or 3rd best critter in the meta right now. They do so much for so little and if you're playing GSZ you can bring them in even around a Chalice@1.

The other creature I really like as a 1-of right now is Dosan the Falling Leaf. Lots of people will not counter GSZ at 3 because what's the worst thing that could happen at that value? Then Dosan lands and they can't do anything else and you have a turn to work unfettered, particularly if you are playing the DRS, Scryb Ranger, KotR troika, which can ramp in some interesting ways at times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I'm thinking 2 Scryb Rangers if you put in the Deathrites and 1 if not. Maybe a 2nd in the SB if you choose not to put in the Deathrites. DRS is probably the 2nd or 3rd best critter in the meta right now. They do so much for so little and if you're playing GSZ you can bring them in even around a Chalice@1.

The other creature I really like as a 1-of right now is Dosan the Falling Leaf. Lots of people will not counter GSZ at 3 because what's the worst thing that could happen at that value? Then Dosan lands and they can't do anything else and you have a turn to work unfettered, particularly if you are playing the DRS, Scryb Ranger, KotR troika, which can ramp in some interesting ways at times.

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thanks for reminding me. I did want to add more cards to the board that interact with GSZ. Dosan, scavenging ooze, gaddock teeg, all seem like good options. Teeg seems like it would steal the most games against combo decks and still allow me to win with Dark depths combo. its cartable on t1 although unlikely, with mox tomb gsz.

the thing about dosan is that best case it locks them out of a counterspell. effectively this is that same as if i had just cast a threat on that turn that they needed to counter, unless they are holding multiple counters. The difference is that if they kill dosan, i've just wasted my turn and the same is true if they don't have a counterspell. if its a threat that can win the game, and they don't have a counter, then i just win. so he seems less than optimal.

I've also been less than happy with elder scale wurm. Its possible i just haven't been able to go the natural order route in the games he would have helped.

cards that need to be added to main deck


scryb ranger
courser of kruphix

-1 scroll rack -1 elderscale wurm +1 scryb ranger +1 courser of kruphix

scroll rack has been less than steller because i usually only have 1-2 cards in hand when i draw it. Other than shuffling back NO targets that i draw its been less than stellar. maybe combined with courser it'll prove to generate huge advantage.


cards that need to be added to board

bojuka bog
scavenging ooze
gaddock teeg

Thalia is probably unnecessary and there is a better option somewhere. RIP is ok, but adding bog / loaming in its place are probably better.

-3 thalia +3 trinisphere
-3 rip + bog + scavenging ooze + teeg

currently a second ruric is in board just because drawing him in a combo match really hoses you when you need to natural order him into play.


****Updated OP with current build after edits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

the thing about dosan is that best case it locks them out of a counterspell. effectively this is that same as if i had just cast a threat on that turn that they needed to counter, unless they are holding multiple counters. The difference is that if they kill dosan, i've just wasted my turn and the same is true if they don't have a counterspell. if its a threat that can win the game, and they don't have a counter, then i just win. so he seems less than optimal.

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Dosan locks them out of all spells on the turn he lands. They can't just kill him unless they have an activated ability way to do that.

So let's say it's turn 4 and you have an Ancient Tomb, a Savannah, a Forest and a Deathrite Shaman in play with another land to drop that turn. So you tap the Ancient Tomb, the Savannah and the Forest to play GSZ at 3. Your opponent either doesn't have a counter or doesn't want to spend one on something he is planning to StP after if lands. Out comes Dosan and you have the turn to play with. You play the land and you tap your DRS to make a mana and you play Chalice@1.

That's a pretty good shot at an unobstructed Natural Order the next turn. He can't bolt or plow Dosan on his turn and as soon as it's your turn again you have the field so to speak. Obviously there are better combos than that available but this is Legacy and we have to assume that Magical Christmas land doesn't happen very often in this type of linear creature-based combo.

Note that if he did Force the GSZ, well then you got to play your Chalice@1 anyway after that happened.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Dosan locks them out of all spells on the turn he lands. They can't just kill him unless they have an activated ability way to do that.

So let's say it's turn 4 and you have an Ancient Tomb, a Savannah, a Forest and a Deathrite Shaman in play with another land to drop that turn. So you tap the Ancient Tomb, the Savannah and the Forest to play GSZ at 3. Your opponent either doesn't have a counter or doesn't want to spend one on something he is planning to StP after if lands. Out comes Dosan and you have the turn to play with. You play the land and you tap your DRS to make a mana and you play Chalice@1.

That's a pretty good shot at an unobstructed Natural Order the next turn. He can't bolt or plow Dosan on his turn and as soon as it's your turn again you have the field so to speak. Obviously there are better combos than that available but this is Legacy and we have to assume that Magical Christmas land doesn't happen very often in this type of linear creature-based combo.

Note that if he did Force the GSZ, well then you got to play your Chalice@1 anyway after that happened.

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most decks given the opportunity counter a GSZ x=3 ... people know that KOTR wrecks shop. Game 2 after they see that's what i would get it'll always get a counterspell so really the strategy is only effective game 1 and in very specific situations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

most decks given the opportunity counter a GSZ x=3 ... people know that KOTR wrecks shop. Game 2 after they see that's what i would get it'll always get a counterspell so really the strategy is only effective game 1 and in very specific situations.

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You'll still get your Chalice@1 out of it. With KotR if that's what they think you are going for they'll hold the counter for Chalice and plow the knight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

You'll still get your Chalice@1 out of it. With KotR if that's what they think you are going for they'll hold the counter for Chalice and plow the knight.

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i see what your saying now. I still think that its a corner case to justify a slot for him. It also means i can't crop rotate on opponents turn. obviously i won't be crop rotating with a chalice out but his purpose is so limited i feel like there are other cards that would add more to the deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

i see what your saying now. I still think that its a corner case to justify a slot for him. It also means i can't crop rotate on opponents turn. obviously i won't be crop rotating with a chalice out but his purpose is so limited i feel like there are other cards that would add more to the deck.

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Once the opponent knows that you are playing Dosan they're going to have to respond to every GSZ at 3+ as though he's going to be the choice. That means you can cut short their ability to see your plays and make decisions on that basis.

Miracles has to either counter GSZ or play their Miracle in response to your GSZ instead of at EoT. By definition if they want to Terminus before your attack phase they're going to have to do it when you cast GSZ, which will leave your fetched creature on the table after the Terminus resolves.

Any list playing 1cc removal is going to have to look at your potential board as Dosan followed by an Ancient Tomb and Chalice@1. They're going to have to blow their bolt or StP in response to GSZ, making your tutored creature that much safer. Your GSZ's will get better and better as the game state progresses because they will be bringing out a larger potential selection of creatures from your list as your mana pool grows. The opponent will always be caught in the trap of having to get rid of what came before because what comes next may limit their options.

StP or bolt dead in the hand as creature removal with two of your creatures on the board or they choose to remove the earlier one blind without knowing what the later one is.

I think Dosan has to be a one of in a GSZ list playing Ancient Tombs and Chalices. He just creates so much uncertainly for the opponent and they can't even probe you on their turn to figure out what their best plays are. They have to live with the knowledge that any GSZ at x=3 or greater could be a game-defining moment that puts them on the downslope with few recovery options.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Once the opponent knows that you are playing Dosan they're going to have to respond to every GSZ at 3+ as though he's going to be the choice. That means you can cut short their ability to see your plays and make decisions on that basis.

Miracles has to either counter GSZ or play their Miracle in response to your GSZ instead of at EoT. By definition if they want to Terminus before your attack phase they're going to have to do it when you cast GSZ, which will leave your fetched creature on the table after the Terminus resolves.

Any list playing 1cc removal is going to have to look at your potential board as Dosan followed by an Ancient Tomb and Chalice@1. They're going to have to blow their bolt or StP in response to GSZ, making your tutored creature that much safer. Your GSZ's will get better and better as the game state progresses because they will be bringing out a larger potential selection of creatures from your list as your mana pool grows. The opponent will always be caught in the trap of having to get rid of what came before because what comes next may limit their options.

StP or bolt dead in the hand as creature removal with two of your creatures on the board or they choose to remove the earlier one blind without knowing what the later one is.

I think Dosan has to be a one of in a GSZ list playing Ancient Tombs and Chalices. He just creates so much uncertainly for the opponent and they can't even probe you on their turn to figure out what their best plays are. They have to live with the knowledge that any GSZ at x=3 or greater could be a game-defining moment that puts them on the downslope with few recovery options.

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what you are proposing requires 6 mana and a spell pierce on GSZ would then require 8 mana to gsz for dosan and chalice at 1. that never happens...I would really like to hear some results from play testing that you have done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

what you are proposing requires 6 mana and a spell pierce on GSZ would then require 8 mana to gsz for dosan and chalice at 1. that never happens...I would really like to hear some results from play testing that you have done.

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What I'm proposing requires a regular land, a deathrite shaman and an ancient tomb on turn 3 with another ancient tomb, GSZ and Chalice in hand. It requires a 2 lands and 2 ancient tombs and GSZ and a Chalice of the Void on turn 4.

The list you have up top has at least 7 cards that are likely to draw counters early on in Crop Rotation and Natural Order. It's not like the GSZ on 3 or 4 is going to be the first thing the opponent counters most of the time. Overall I count about 18-20 spells in the list that are going to be in the "must-counter" realm when you play them. I don't know any lists right now playing more than 12 counters and most lists are playing 8-10. I think you have a very good chance of seeing the opponent run out of counters before you run out of things to cast. Making GSZ a "must-counter" card for them is a big part of that.

Most people playing 4-8 creature removal and 8-10 counters are going to let the GSZ@3 resolve and kill what it produces. It's the logical way to deal with limited resources against the kind of effect you are putting into play. "Only counter the things that will kill you" is a tried and true control method. Dosan kills them, unlike anything else GSZ produces. Even Vampire Hexmage, assuming you're still going that route, just gives you a very plowable Marit Lage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

The list you have up top has at least 7 cards that are likely to draw counters early on in Crop Rotation and Natural Order. It's not like the GSZ on 3 or 4 is going to be the first thing the opponent counters most of the time. Overall I count about 18-20 spells in the list that are going to be in the "must-counter" realm when you play them. I don't know any lists right now playing more than 12 counters and most lists are playing 8-10. I think you have a very good chance of seeing the opponent run out of counters before you run out of things to cast. Making GSZ a "must-counter" card for them is a big part of that.

Most people playing 4-8 creature removal and 8-10 counters are going to let the GSZ@3 resolve and kill what it produces. It's the logical way to deal with limited resources against the kind of effect you are putting into play. "Only counter the things that will kill you" is a tried and true control method. Dosan kills them, unlike anything else GSZ produces. Even Vampire Hexmage, assuming you're still going that route, just gives you a very plowable Marit Lage.

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because of this comparison, i would consider testing dosan. Just not sure what I cut for it...

after a lot of testing, this deck has favorable matchup vs ant / burn. it has similar good matchup as the original turbo depths list against decks that do not run Wasteland like UR delver, and decks that don't run answers once the token is created, like BUG. It's ability to NO into Progenitus where Marit Lage would normally get removed is a very good strength. Additionally NO into ruric against combo helps significantly as does NO into Elderscale against decks with no answers where you might get overwhelmed.

I'm liking the diversity of this list to traditional all in depths because sometimes the difficulty in overcoming the shortfalls of dark depths combo are much harder than simply attacking with a KOTR or NO into a better answer like progenitus / ruric.

The consistency of this deck is really impressive. being able to play chalice on t1 when you get it or move on to more aggressive plays really impresses me over other options with chalice of the void main.

one important thing to note is that Elderscale will lose to a DRS or other means of life loss. It's not as powerful as I once thought and should not be relied on. instead it simply buys time.

haven't had any tests against S&T.

despite the way the deck looks mana problems have not been an issue. T1 blood moon is but that is kinda expected since you have no chance to react but other than that i'm not finding that this dead is dead int he water vs anything.


Has anyone else been testing this?

I'm about to remove titania as i've never once wanted to search for her

Also, while I have used Scryb ranger to block against aven minds censor it can't be relied on and aven really does present a problem for this deck. I'm thinking that tarmogoyf might be a better 2 cmc card to GSZ for and abrupt decay might be worth finding a spot main. someone mentioned a person they ran into in italy was playing something similar and they used volrath's stronghold and life from the loam.

I've added a matchup analysis. It demonstrates the deck being well positioned and flexible in the current meta.

*if you want more details please let me know.

What's the plan against S&T? I'm thinking that's the list that's close to impossible for a list without red or blue to beat at this point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

What's the plan against S&T? I'm thinking that's the list that's close to impossible for a list without red or blue to beat at this point.

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not sure what the second half of your sentence is trying to say but I'm trying to make some changes in the flex spots to improve the S&T matchup.

poking around sylvan plug thread suggests that its not a favorable match for the deck in general. However adding stingerflinger spider is an easy way to at least have more game against them. 5 mana is a lot against a deck that can t2 emrakul but it can be GSZ, NO, and S&T into play. It also helps against delver decks and D&T and may earn a main deck slot.

i've got 2-3 variable slots for the main deck (1 titania, 1 scryb ranger, 1 Courser of Cruphix in that order) and am considering the following

teeg - AdNauseum Dredge High Tide
ooze - Reanimator AdNauseum Dredge Lands
Bojuka bog - Reanimator AdNauseum Dredge Lands
stingerfling spider - S&T some D&T Reanimator and Delver
Karakas - S&T Reanimator some D&T


first priority would be to improve S&T, D&T. Then Elves / RUG to make those not so much of a toss up / race.



Other thoughts

I'm considering cutting elder scale warm from sideboard and thought seizes. If I do that and move some SB cards to the main I'll have UP to 6 slots in SB to better adjust for the poor matchups. adding something that works in place of thoughtseize like ethersworn canonist would improve most matches thoughtseize comes in against and provide a threat while not getting locked out from chalice.

The reason for considering cutting courser is because this deck is very fast and doesn't have much time to realize the advantage courser grants. Also, because its a combo based deck, revealing Natural Order or dark depths as your top card completely blows your cover and opponent might be able to adapt.

I've also considered adding 1 more card like qusali because SFM decks usually run 2 equip and if the game drags on to the point where they stick 2 it can become problematic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

not sure what the second half of your sentence is trying to say but I'm trying to make some changes in the flex spots to improve the S&T matchup.

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What does the list do against T2 or T3 Show and Tell into Hivemind and a pact? I ran a Junk affiliate list against S&T Friday night and other than Cabal Therapy out of the sideboard (Thoughtseize in this list) there was just nothing that had even a remote chance to stand up to that. Emrakul was tough but Hivemind was close to impossible because once Show and Tell resolves it's game over and they use Intuition at end of your turn to set it up if they haven't already assembled the combo through more traditional cantrip related means.


Blue or red lets you prevent Show and Tell (or Intuition if you go that route) from resolving. Junk just doesn't have anything that manages that. The counters and Brainstorm essentially strip us of any likely chance to interact with the S&T list before they do something that we then can't interact with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

What does the list do against T2 or T3 Show and Tell into Hivemind and a pact? I ran a Junk affiliate list against S&T Friday night and other than Cabal Therapy out of the sideboard (Thoughtseize in this list) there was just nothing that had even a remote chance to stand up to that. Emrakul was tough but Hivemind was close to impossible because once Show and Tell resolves it's game over and they use Intuition at end of your turn to set it up if they haven't already assembled the combo through more traditional cantrip related means.


Blue or red lets you prevent Show and Tell (or Intuition if you go that route) from resolving. Junk just doesn't have anything that manages that. The counters and Brainstorm essentially strip us of any likely chance to interact with the S&T list before they do something that we then can't interact with.

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are you saying that the deck needs to run red for pyroblast to interact with these decks or blue for other counterspells?

I agree that thought seize isn't the best because cards can be hidden with brainstorm which is 1 reason i don't like thought seize as much and likely to come out of my sb. I don't think red / blue is the only effective way to interact with S&T.

adding karakas to the deck significantly improves the situation against S&T and something like teeg / pithing needle / revoker are good against Sneak attack. I haven't figured out if these are really good options let alone the best but its something i've been trying to figure out.

You made a good point to poke around the Junk thread to see how they deal with these decks. I'll have to find out and get back to you, but currently as my matchup analysis has revealed, these are not good matchups.

EDIT***
sdematt: "Sneak and Show, I have Needle, Teeg, Charm, and Grip. Chainer's could be Diabolic Edict. Here's a match where I'd likely want Thalia just to slow them down." All of that is onto of 6 1cmc discard 3x STP and 1 karakas...

S&T is an amazing deck and this is 1 of the reasons its so damn good... because its really hard to hate against.

i just found the most amazing creature that could solve all of the problems of S&T. its permanent. The'll never expect it and off the S&T they just lose.

Willow Satyr

Here's the problem: How do you interact with this?

T1 - Blue land, Ponder or Preordain.
T2 - City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, put Hive Mind into play. Play a Pact of the Titan or play a Lotus Petal and Pact of Negation their own spell.

What can Junk possibly to do to fight that by turn 2 except get lucky to both have Thoughtseize in hand turn 1 and that they don't have a counter to deal with it?

Emrakul there are answers too. The answers to Hive Mind or Omniscience just aren't there. The only answer I had in my Junk build were the 3 Cabal Therapies sideboard and 1 Trinisphere that I put in specifically for Omniscience, only Junk can't find cards like that reliably by turn 2 even when they're on the play and might have a chance to disrupt some.

I just don't see how to deal with that in this archetype at the moment. I was playing 4 Aether Vial, 3 Tidehollow Sculler and 3 Ethersworn Canonist alongside the 3 Cabal Therapy and singleton Trinisphere game 2 and I actually therapied him successfully for Show and Tell on the play. The end of my turn 3 he Intuitioned for the other 3 Show and Tell and I was dead on his turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Here's the problem: How do you interact with this?

T1 - Blue land, Ponder or Preordain.
T2 - City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, put Hive Mind into play. Play a Pact of the Titan or play a Lotus Petal and Pact of Negation their own spell.

What can Junk possibly to do to fight that by turn 2 except get lucky to both have Thoughtseize in hand turn 1 and that they don't have a counter to deal with it?

Emrakul there are answers too. The answers to Hive Mind or Omniscience just aren't there. The only answer I had in my Junk build were the 3 Cabal Therapies sideboard and 1 Trinisphere that I put in specifically for Omniscience, only Junk can't find cards like that reliably by turn 2 even when they're on the play and might have a chance to disrupt some.

I just don't see how to deal with that in this archetype at the moment. I was playing 4 Aether Vial, 3 Tidehollow Sculler and 3 Ethersworn Canonist alongside the 3 Cabal Therapy and singleton Trinisphere game 2 and I actually therapied him successfully for Show and Tell on the play. The end of my turn 3 he Intuitioned for the other 3 Show and Tell and I was dead on his turn.

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@ omni, this match is incredibly favorable for all the reasons i mentioned in the matchup analysis. You get opening hands like i did tonight, thoughtseize, mox diamond, dark depths, tomb, trinisphere, chalice, natural order. Its a complete blow out.


i hear what you are saying, and the deck doesn't have much. Since Hive mind is played so little i must stop you from discussing it further because until it becomes prevalent i don't see the point in adapting a specific strategy just for that deck. If its in your meta then you'll have to adapt but its not in 99% of anyone else meta.

i think i listed a fair amount of options about what junk can do even though they may not be the best available when compared to other colors.

Are you suggesting the deck gets scrapped because it doesn't run counterspells? This cannot be since by that logic every deck not running counterspells should not be played because of decks like belcher...

whats the point of what you are saying?

You are pointing out a weakness, and i agree. If you are looking to me for an answer i've given options. Make suggestions if my choices are not good enough.

Easy choices would be thalia revoker, and Karakas. I think the best way to approach the situation might actually be to adapt the sideboard to a D&T kind of approach. S&T's Greatest weakness is D&T. Karakas, thalia, phyrexian revoker, swords, spirit of the labrynth, containment priest. if you don't like what i've chosen you can pick a few that benefit your other matches.

keep in mind that S&T brings in blood moon for Karakas, and pyroclasm for revokers. Inspire of this they may buy you enough time to NO or Dark depths. Dark depths is unaffected by Thalia which is nice.

Why does there need to be a plan against Hivemind? That deck is terrible. If it's in your weird meta then run 4 Mana Tithe 4 Angel's Grace. Hivemind has fallen out of favor with Show and Tell archetypes because the meta is rampant with soft counters like flusterstorm, daze, and spell pierce, which makes it extremely easy to counter your own pact while pushing your own counter through.

Sorry for responding to the troll!

Have you been testing Courser? I found it very lackluster in GW Maverick in the current meta.

I'd recommend Toxic Deluge for the sideboard against D&T.

Also, what about a 1 of Boseiju for the sideboard? I've sided it in with my GW Maverick deck to push through Armageddon and GSZs, it's a very powerful card that is overlooked these days. I would cut Scooze, as it is very weak right now and it can't get any advantage when you're running Ancient Tombs and Cities.

i've added a sideboard guide to the primer and made changes to the main deck and sideboard

I am also considering moving all or some of the following from main to SB since i seem to be boarding the decay's and sages in almost 60% of my matches. My reservation is that karakas and singerfling make S&T & D&T & reanimator slightly better g1, and aren't completely dead in other matches.

main
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Wasteland
-1 Stingerfling Spider
-1 Karakas

SB
+1 Reclamation Sage
+3 Abrupt Decay


also considering sigarda and hornet nest - yup mouse over it


although i personally prefer dark depths because its a 20/20, i've also ported this list to 12 post, and it seems to have solved the miracles coin flip match, and turned the unfavorable D&T matchup into a favorable one. It also deals with creatures swarm decks better with the inclusion of Glacial chasm, so elves isn't as iffy. I made a brief post about it here

brief thoughts on it are that ultimately it may be better in the long run because of its matchups vs D&T and miracles...really i just like smashing miracles hard. I think it can have better matchups vs S&T but I haven't developed a sideboard for it or tested enough to really expose any additional weaknesses i've created by dropping the dark depths combo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Why does there need to be a plan against Hivemind? That deck is terrible. If it's in your weird meta then run 4 Mana Tithe 4 Angel's Grace. Hivemind has fallen out of favor with Show and Tell archetypes because the meta is rampant with soft counters like flusterstorm, daze, and spell pierce, which makes it extremely easy to counter your own pact while pushing your own counter through.

Sorry for responding to the troll!

Have you been testing Courser? I found it very lackluster in GW Maverick in the current meta.

I'd recommend Toxic Deluge for the sideboard against D&T.

Also, what about a 1 of Boseiju for the sideboard? I've sided it in with my GW Maverick deck to push through Armageddon and GSZs, it's a very powerful card that is overlooked these days. I would cut Scooze, as it is very weak right now and it can't get any advantage when you're running Ancient Tombs and Cities.

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It seems like your suggestions are on point with the changes i've made to SB and Maindeck.

I don't like courser since i've found him to be lack luster as well. He got cut
toxic deluge made it into SB

I agree with your comment on ooze. Its weird tho because he reads like an all star but in practice just doesn't work out.

im considering Anafenza, the Foremost in his place since it doesn't require an activation cost and can't be responded to since its a replacement effect. drawback is that its a bitch to hardcast, and doesn't do anything against creatures already in the grave.

Boseiju could be added but it doesn't really improve any matches i struggle with.

I have made a complete overhaul to this deck after significant testing. I've found that the changes are necessary to offset the weaknesses of the old Dark Depths build with the benefits of the new Eldrazi build.

The eldrazi addition improved matchups against miracles, stone forge decks, D&T, S&T, and Reanimator. It weakened it’s matchup vs Shardless / Jund which is acceptable because they were so favorable.