[Article] No Reserved List Legacy

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ed-list-legacy

Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

Decks that get worse: MUD (no Metalworker/Monolith/City), Dredge (no LED), Elves (No Cradle), Lands (no Mox Diamond/Tabernacle), Aluren (lol)
Decks that get better: Aggro/Burn strategies due to the life impact of shocklands, decks that already don't care about their life
Hard to tell: Storm (no LED, but less Storm count needed so maybe it cancels out?)

(Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ed-list-legacy

Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

(Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).

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It's an interesting thought experiment. What I fail to grasp is why would WotC even think of doing it in the first place? It seems to be kicking up a storm for no real reason. It might as well be an article based on "What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards gave us 1 free blue mana per turn?" It doesn't address any of the perceived 'problems' of Legacy either way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ed-list-legacy

Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

Decks that get worse: MUD (no Metalworker/Monolith/City), Dredge (no LED), Elves (No Cradle), Lands (no Mox Diamond/Tabernacle), Aluren (lol)
Decks that get better: Aggro/Burn strategies due to the life impact of shocklands, decks that already don't care about their life
Hard to tell: Storm (no LED, but less Storm count needed so maybe it cancels out?)

(Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).

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Isn't this basically just modern? Or is the difference that you'd allow commons and uncommons from sets that rares are on the reserve list?

Also when you say "get worse", I think you really mean stop being decks. Painter Stratagies also stop being a deck.

As somebody who primarily plays fringe decks, this would completely kill Legacy for me. The loss of City of Traitors alone would be crippling, not to mention Aluren, Moat, Tabernacle, Candelabra, Grim Monolith and a bunch of other cards that fuel my favorite decks. The format would basically be Modern except that I would still have to deal with bullshit like Deathrite Shaman and Brainstorm which thankfully are not legal in the latter format. This change would barely impact blue decks but would weaken or kill pretty much every alternative strategy. The author's contempt for a lot of these strategies was obvious ("no great loss" etc.).

I like Saffron, but I disagree with a lot of points he makes with his article.

For one, it's far too early to declare Legacy "dead". Sure WotC's support has been downright bad and there is a void left by SCG not supporting the format. However, that doesn't mean there won't be people to fill that need on the local level. Tales of Adventure and TOGIT are already doing so in the northeast.

Secondly, the way he casually states that losing the dual lands would be "least impactful changes to the format" is ludicrous. Just swap duals for shocks one-for-one? That should really work for all the Delver decks that run Daze.

= basicaly killing the identity and every fun element in legacy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paul7926

It's an interesting thought experiment. What I fail to grasp is why would WotC even think of doing it in the first place? It seems to be kicking up a storm for no real reason. It might as well be an article based on "What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards gave us 1 free blue mana per turn?" It doesn't address any of the perceived 'problems' of Legacy either way.

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Well the author is mostly coming from a finance background, so it solves the "problem" of there being no financial incentive for Wizards or tournament organizers to support the format. Legacy players are way less likely to buy new product, which means Wizards doesn't directly profit from the format's existence. And without Wizards support, TOs are way less likely to bother running Legacy events when they could run Modern instead and piggyback on official MTG marketing pushing the format.

As a European I'm starting to get a little bored of the hyperbole that states "SCG stop holding legacy events = Death of Legacy". It's just not true.

The format will live or die based on support for it. If enough people want to play then TO's will hold events. Maybe WotC stops holding Legacy events, so what, that just means that TO's can run Legacy with a certain amount of proxies and even more people can play. WotC made the cards and WotC sold us the cards (well they sold them to someone and we probably bought them 12th hand or whatever) and now we own the cards we can use them how we want. We can attend or organize whatever we want. We don't need SCG to hold our hand and tell us not to be afraid of the dark.

Worst case I can see is that playing Legacy will not get you qualified for the Pro-Tour. Well guess what, that will probably be standard anyway so why would I want to play in it?

If I'm missing something important then I'm more than prepared to listen to arguments/logic/facts to explain that to me but I just don't buy into the 'sky is falling' mantra I'm hearing all the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ed-list-legacy

Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

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you'd end up with an unbalanced modernesque format

Believe it or not the fact of having to use shock lands changes things. Taking 2 damage or slowing down play is noticeable in a format like legacy where things are incredibly powerful. Waste landing an ETB tapped shock land you get no use out of it. If you want to use it you shock yourself. Over the course of a game 3-4 shocks adds up and aggressive decks have an advantage.

The format would be better than modern currently but still not legacy. It would have to be balanced again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

And without Wizards support, TOs are way less likely to bother running Legacy events when they could run Modern instead and piggyback on official MTG marketing pushing the format.

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What I'm unclear about (and I'm no TO so I have no facts) is if that statement is even true. I would assume that if x people want to play Legacy and y people want to play modern then a TO would do better to host the tournament for whichever of x or y was greater. It is therefore down to the Legacy players to support, nurture and grow the player base for the format they love to ensure they are the chosen format.

I accept that price is a barrier to entry but it's only a barrier. If someone really wants to play Legacy they will cope with using shock whilst they save for duals, they will cope with not running as many Wasteland as the list probably should, they will cope with too few FoW for a while. However to get someone to the point of doing that they need to be allowed to see and play Legacy and know that there are a core of players locally who are not going to vanish overnight.

I think the point that I'm probably making badly is that if Legacy players want the format to survive and grow then it's Legacy players that have the power to affect that by being active in their local community, being inclusive and supportive of people interested in the format, attending as many events as they reasonably can to show support (regardless of the EV of the payout structure). If, as a community, we sit back, don't attend anything, don't support the format we can't expect a company to do that for us. Companies need to make money (not just want but need) and they will support competitive rock-paper-scissors if there is a profit in it.

It's down to the community, not SCG, not WotC, not the RL and not straw clutching banning or format changes.

I mean EDH survives. There are no EDH Pro tours, or GP's or PTQ's but the players like it so they play it so it survives.

What a waste of text. I can't believe I'm saying it ... but ... go play modern. If you want to tackle the issue of new players financially getting into Legacy then debunk the myth of cheap standard, the fact that half a dozen modern staples are also legacy staples and they are $80-100. "In Modern, if Tarmogoyf gets too expensive" ... Goyf is $146? There were $150 Underground Seas at GP Atlanta. I have no sympathy for a modern barnacle crying that Legacy is too expensive if he's spending $125 on a non reserved list quad reprinted Lhurgoyf.

Finally there are reserved list skirting ways WotC could get poor people into legacy, they actively choose not to do it

- From the Vaults Eternal: Force, Port, LotV, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Sneak Attack, Goyf, Some Artifact ... Jitte?, Pox, Karakas

this would benefit the masses with respect to modern and legacy, they would be hideous and forever a mark of shame on all who played them but they would squirt some supply into the market.

These would obviously sell out at whatever print run given near unlimited demand. The originals would see a small dip as speculators pretend to play wall street but the prices, as always, would rebound because demand is so strong for not-shitty looking foils. Before proposing shit legacy, this is a better solution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Finally there are reserved list skirting ways WotC could get poor people into legacy, they actively choose not to do it

- From the Vaults Eternal: Force, Port, LotV, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Sneak Attack, Goyf, Some Artifact ... Jitte?, Pox, Karakas

this would benefit the masses with respect to modern and legacy, they would be hideous and forever a mark of shame on all who played them but they would squirt some supply into the market.

These would obviously sell out at whatever print run given near unlimited demand. The originals would see a small dip as speculators pretend to play wall street but the prices, as always, would rebound because demand is so strong for not-shitty looking foils. Before proposing shit legacy, this is a better solution.

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Sadly, going by their current policy they can't print a FTV to get around this either.

'A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.'

Link.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dissection

Sadly, going by their current policy they can't print a FTV to get around this either.

'A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.'

Link.

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None of the cards he mentioned are reserved, though. That's the point. They are still scarce and high-priced.

In fact if you look at the OP's article, the only really expensive RL cards that are heavily played in the format are duals. LED/Cradle maybe but like nedleeds said, if you'll shell out $125 x 4 for Tarmogoyf or $75 for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy or even $50 for Arcbound Ravager, you can afford your set of those reserved cards assuming you're buying the other unreserved cards like Heritage Druid or Infernal Tutor which can be reprinted and tanked at any time. It's the duals that are the true barrier and the only way to get around that is to break the RL.

I agree with what many responses to this article have said. The reserved cards may be few, but many are what makes Legacy the format it is. Honestly, I would rather see the duals banned alone than LED/Aluren/Mox Diamond type cards. Shocks would make an approximation of the format without taking out some of the more charming quirks from MTG history. Of course, banning duals would rock the secondary market so much as to make their presence on the RL pointless.

There is no solution to growing Legacy (at least to Wizards' and TOs' definition of "growing") that doesn't involve killing the RL or doing something that the risk-averse clowns in R&D would never do (like push the RW color combination to make Plateau a strong card, or print some sort of alternative parasitic manabase that competes with fetch + dual for efficiency.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

alternative parasitic manabase that competes with fetch + dual for efficiency.)

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How would that even look like? It's impossible to make a dual colored land better or competitive with an original dual. All the ones that are just utility lands like Horizon Canopy. So maybe stuff like:

Land - [Type]
T: Pay 1 life add Color 1 or Color 2 to your mana pool
1 (or D if you want it to be super hard) T: Sac, [Utility effect]

and

Land
T: sac, fetch a [Type].

And even in that case. . . . dual plus fetchs are probably better anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

None of the cards he mentioned are reserved, though. That's the point. They are still scarce and high-priced.

In fact if you look at the OP's article, the only really expensive RL cards that are heavily played in the format are duals. LED/Cradle maybe but like nedleeds said, if you'll shell out $125 x 4 for Tarmogoyf or $75 for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy or even $50 for Arcbound Ravager, you can afford your set of those reserved cards assuming you're buying the other unreserved cards like Heritage Druid or Infernal Tutor which can be reprinted and tanked at any time. It's the duals that are the true barrier and the only way to get around that is to break the RL.

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Those prices are currently how the system functions but if you eliminate modern and replace it with legacy the cost of led skyrockets as there are now twice as many people looking for it. It probably wouldnt double but the demand increases significantly.

One option for creating similar duals might be "rain of tears" type lands that are fetchable.

nedleeds nailed it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

None of the cards he mentioned are reserved, though. That's the point. They are still scarce and high-priced.

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Ah, my mistake! Then yes, I totally agree with him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cire

How would that even look like? It's impossible to make a dual colored land better or competitive with an original dual. All the ones that are just utility lands like Horizon Canopy. So maybe stuff like:

Land - [Type]
T: Pay 1 life add Color 1 or Color 2 to your mana pool
1 (or D if you want it to be super hard) T: Sac, [Utility effect]

and

Land
T: sac, fetch a [Type].

And even in that case. . . . dual plus fetchs are probably better anyway.

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Like I said, that's R&D's problem. They've tooled around with snow and legendary duals so maybe the RL isn't as draconian as they make it sound with the references to Reverberate.

The leaked card Waste lacks a basic land type which means they missed the clear opportunity to do this:

Waste
Basic land - Waste
(T: Add <> to your mana pool)

Wastefetch
Land
T, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Wastefetch: Search your library for a Waste card, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

Wasteisland
Land - Waste Island
(T: Add <> or U to your mana pool)

And so on...

This is pretty similar to the reasoning Wizards had when they created Modern. There is also the myth that Wizards doesn't profit from Legacy and Vintage. Some reasons why it's false:

1. Its players still buy cards from new sets. Whether they buy packs or not is irrelevant, it will still increase total packs sales.
2. It gives value to cards after they rotate from Standard, get banned from Modern or get printed in supplemental products.
3. It helps their business partners, game stores, make money from the second hand market. Thriving business partners is a key part to WotC business model.
4. Really expensive cards make people more easily spend money on cheaper cards. It is similar to why casinos have $500 or $1000 slot machines even if almost no one ever use them.
5. There is a segment of players that only play Legacy or Vintage. Catering to them is better than losing customers.
6. Some players play Legacy and also high earning formats like Commander, Modern and Prereleases. They might not particîpate in those if it wasn't from Legacy.

Wizards also doesn't want any format to eclipse Standard. They've been pushing it since 1995 and will always do. The question isn't how to make Legacy more profitable for Wizards but how to make Magic more profitable for them.

I like it. It's like Overextended with Force of Will, Wasteland, and some janky stuff.

If anyone wants to start brewing, I'm in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/...ed-list-legacy

Simple premise: What if, instead of abolishing the Reserve List, Wizards just banned all of the cards on it? What would that do to the format? I'm hoping the discussion can be about how the metagame might change and whether those changes would be good/bad for the format, and not turn into yet another RL argument.

Decks that get worse: MUD (no Metalworker/Monolith/City), Dredge (no LED), Elves (No Cradle), Lands (no Mox Diamond/Tabernacle), Aluren (lol)
Decks that get better: Aggro/Burn strategies due to the life impact of shocklands, decks that already don't care about their life
Hard to tell: Storm (no LED, but less Storm count needed so maybe it cancels out?)

(Not my article, I'm not sure if the author/site post here, I'm just interested in this forum's thoughts).

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Sounds dumb. Format would become a slightly more powerful modern. But modern is a slightly more powerful standard which is why it blows. Just remove the reserved list, I'd rather play this game than watch my cards collect dust.

Edit: Lets say for the sake of argument Legacy dies. Would these collectors/hoarders be able to move any of their collection? Would they still hold value? It makes more sense to me that they remove the reserved list and make something like Legacy Masters. Drafting that would be awesome and it would get more people into the game. It wouldn't affect prices that much, just look at Tarmogoyf, Clique and Dark confidant.

If you're going to do something to this effect (large change in the parameters of the format) making modern start with Masques makes more sense in my opinion, it skirts around the reserved list by starting with the first set not affected by it and includes plenty of cards (Cabal Therapy most notably imo) that would be great in modern but possibly too good in standard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

If you're going to do something to this effect (large change in the parameters of the format) making modern start with Masques makes more sense in my opinion, it skirts around the reserved list by starting with the first set not affected by it and includes plenty of cards (Cabal Therapy most notably imo) that would be great in modern but possibly too good in standard.

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Therapy, Pyromancer, and Probe having a steamy threesome would spaff all over the face of Modern and initiate the apocalypse.

You say that like its a bad thing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

If you're going to do something to this effect (large change in the parameters of the format) making modern start with Masques makes more sense in my opinion, it skirts around the reserved list by starting with the first set not affected by it and includes plenty of cards (Cabal Therapy most notably imo) that would be great in modern but possibly too good in standard.

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I just ran through the sets real quick and from Masques to 8th, here's the major stuff I saw that would be added. I'm amazed how much more like legacy-lite the format would look:

Masques
Brainstorm
Counterspell
Energy Flux
Misdirection
Dark Ritual
Unmask
Pulverize
Food Chain
Dust Bowl
Rihadan Port
Tower of the Magistrate

Nemesis
Lin Sivvi (and the rest of her gang)
Daze
Submerge
Massacre
Flame Rift

Invasion
Ana, Ceta, Necra, Raka, Dega as the names for the wedges
Fact or Fiction
Sterling Grove

Planeshift:
Vindicate

Apocalypse
Fire//Ice

Odyssey
Careful Study
Standstill
Entomb
Tainted Pact

Torment
Many cards key to building a Madness deck
Chainers Edict
Cabal Coffers

Judgement
Golden Wish
Burning Wish
Cunning Wish
Envelop
Mental Note
Cabal Therapy
Worldgorger Dragon
Riftstone Portal

Onslaught
Allied fetch lands years earlier
Astral Slide and the things required to make that a deck
True Believer
Chain of Vapor
Riptide Lab
Goblin Piledriver years earlier
Goblin Sharpshooter
Slice and Dice
Birchlore Rangers
Enchantress’s Presence

Legions
Gempalm Incinerator

Scourge
Decree of Justice
Brain Freeze
Mind’s Desire
Stifle
Tendrils of Agony
Pyrostatic Pillar
Sulfuric Vortex
Wirewood Symbiote

And that's just the cards that I noticed in a quick run. I'm sure there are some I missed and I wasn't even looking for synergies that might exist.

Goblins and Elves get huge boosts.
Control gets Brainstorm and Counterspell

Combo gets... well, an ungodly number of things.

Tempo gets Daze, Stifle, and Submerge

Foodchain as well as possibly Madness, Rebels, and Cycling.dec all become possible additions to the metagame.

DEED THAT IS PERNICIOUS

That is all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thecrav

Masques
Brainstorm
Counterspell
Energy Flux
Misdirection
Dark Ritual
Unmask
Pulverize
Food Chain
Dust Bowl
Rihadan Port
Tower of the Magistrate

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There's no chance in hell they would allow Brainstorm and Dark Ritual in Modern. They would get banned asap, considering shittier cards are on the Banned List.

I'd love me some Ports and Dust Bowls in Modern D&T, though.

Edit: As for the article: Not mentioning of D&T seems wrong - it loses absolutely nothing since it has no cards on the Reserve List while the manabase of everybody else gets extremely shitty and potentially loses key cards, too. Ports and Wasteland preying on a Shockland manabase is a massacre.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

There's no chance in hell they would allow Brainstorm and Dark Ritual in Modern. They would get banned asap, considering shittier cards are on the Banned List.

I'd love me some Ports and Dust Bowls in Modern D&T, though.

Edit: As for the article: Not mentioning of D&T seems wrong - it loses absolutely nothing since it has no cards on the Reserve List while the manabase of everybody else gets extremely shitty and potentially loses key cards, too. Ports and Wasteland preying on a Shockland manabase is a massacre.

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In this Legacy-lite format, DnT and Merfolk are so~~ strong, follow by Miracles (runs enough Basic), follow by Burn. Kill off combo cards like LED and Cradle. Without Null Rod..., everyone runs needle to stop Vial and SDT?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

There's no chance in hell they would allow Brainstorm and Dark Ritual in Modern. They would get banned asap, considering shittier cards are on the Banned List.

I'd love me some Ports and Dust Bowls in Modern D&T, though.

Edit: As for the article: Not mentioning of D&T seems wrong - it loses absolutely nothing since it has no cards on the Reserve List while the manabase of everybody else gets extremely shitty and potentially loses key cards, too. Ports and Wasteland preying on a Shockland manabase is a massacre.

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Given the quality and type of cards being introduced into the format, I doubt the banlist would remain the same. Better disruption (Counterspell and Cabal Therapy) means it's less safe to play Combo and Linear strategies and better to play a reactionary/disruptive deck.

No reserved list legacy seems poor for D&T, Tempo decks with daze basically aren't playable with shocklands (as they are currently built) which compromise a large part of D&T positive match ups in the field right now. We'd likely see more infect and miracles, as the 2 damage basically means nothing to infect as they are aiming to win in the area of turn 2-4 and Miracles can be built with Battle Lands and Mystic Gate and barely notice the difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

In this Legacy-lite format, DnT and Merfolk are so~~ strong, follow by Miracles (runs enough Basic), follow by Burn. Kill off combo cards like LED and Cradle. Without Null Rod..., everyone runs needle to stop Vial and SDT?

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Stony Silence is a card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

Given the quality and type of cards being introduced into the format, I doubt the banlist would remain the same. Better disruption (Counterspell and Cabal Therapy) means it's less safe to play Combo and Linear strategies and better to play a reactionary/disruptive deck.

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I on the otherhand don't think Counterspell and Cabal Therapy would do enough to prevent the flood of combo that would come from this. Lack of FoW seems like a big problem. Sure Cabal Therapy (and maybe Counterspell... maybe) would be format warping for Modern, but I don't think they do enough against all the other legacy quality cards introduced.

That said, though, I'd wholeheartedly support a Legacy Restricted format, in which the Reserved List is restricted instead of banned.

No reserved List?! I call it Bullshit...Don't play legacy if you don't want to buy the cards.^^

So Modern+. No thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dissection

Sadly, going by their current policy they can't print a FTV to get around this either.

'A previous version of this policy allowed premium versions of cards on the reserved list to be printed. Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list will be printed in either premium or non-premium form.'

Link.

---

I didnt list any reserved list cards.

edit: scrolled down

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thecrav

I just ran through the sets real quick and from Masques to 8th, here's the major stuff I saw that would be added. I'm amazed how much more like legacy-lite the format would look:

Masques
Brainstorm
Counterspell
Energy Flux
Misdirection
Dark Ritual
Unmask
Pulverize
Food Chain
Dust Bowl
Rihadan Port
Tower of the Magistrate

Nemesis
Lin Sivvi (and the rest of her gang)
Daze
Submerge
Massacre
Flame Rift

Invasion
Ana, Ceta, Necra, Raka, Dega as the names for the wedges
Fact or Fiction
Sterling Grove

Planeshift:
Vindicate

Apocalypse
Fire//Ice

Odyssey
Careful Study
Standstill
Entomb
Tainted Pact

Torment
Many cards key to building a Madness deck
Chainers Edict
Cabal Coffers

Judgement
Golden Wish
Burning Wish
Cunning Wish
Envelop
Mental Note
Cabal Therapy
Worldgorger Dragon
Riftstone Portal

Onslaught
Allied fetch lands years earlier
Astral Slide and the things required to make that a deck
True Believer
Chain of Vapor
Riptide Lab
Goblin Piledriver years earlier
Goblin Sharpshooter
Slice and Dice
Birchlore Rangers
Enchantress’s Presence

Legions
Gempalm Incinerator

Scourge
Decree of Justice
Brain Freeze
Mind’s Desire
Stifle
Tendrils of Agony
Pyrostatic Pillar
Sulfuric Vortex
Wirewood Symbiote

And that's just the cards that I noticed in a quick run. I'm sure there are some I missed and I wasn't even looking for synergies that might exist.

Goblins and Elves get huge boosts.
Control gets Brainstorm and Counterspell

Combo gets... well, an ungodly number of things.

Tempo gets Daze, Stifle, and Submerge

Foodchain as well as possibly Madness, Rebels, and Cycling.dec all become possible additions to the metagame.

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No wastelands, plus Sandstone Needle is big.

Instead of replacing a great format (Legacy) with a diluted "Modern plus" because of the implications of the Reserved List in the distant future, why not replace a format that is shitty right now (Modern) with this No Reserved List Eternal format instead?

This was a rhetorical question, but that possibility wasn't considered in the article because it's for a website geared to financiers/speculators rather than to players.

Personally, the loss of Mox Diamond and Dual Lands would end my current enjoyment in Legacy.

We all agree the list is bad, but you don't solve the issue by cutting out so much of the format. Because you take out the soul of the format if you so drastically change its core.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Because you take out the soul of the format if you so drastically change its core.

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This. Virtually all the most interesting decks - those that can exist only in a format like Legacy - will get hurt or killed. Lands, painter, Elves, MUD, as well as fringier decks like Belcher, High Tide, Pox, Enchantress and more.

Dice nailed it - this would suck the soul out of Legacy

Read the article the other day, and frankly, it was one of the stupidest things I'd read in some time. And I read the news.

What would banning everything on the reserved list actually solve? Seems the author was flailing for a nice, arbitrary designator for a group of cards that would include Stuff He(?) Doesn't Like, and that's how the reserved list came up.

Let's be honest: there are specific cards that define Legacy play and have always defined Legacy play (and competitive magic in the eternal formats) for as long as the format's been around. THOSE CARDS AREN'T ALL ON THE RESERVED LIST. Force of Will isn't on the list, yet Grandmother Sengir is. So the reserved list is not a guide for determining a card's playability, and thus, the author's argument doesn't really have any bearing on the gameplay of the format, and everything about gameplay that he says subsequent to his suggestion is nonsensical speculation.

If people complain about the price of the cards on the reserved list, and if the author's primary concern is economic in nature, why doesn't he realize that banning those cards not only would hurt collectors, but would cause the prices of "the next best things" to skyrocket? Storytime: I moved halfway across the country not long ago and sold about ten thousand junk commons I'd accumulated over my sixteen years of playing the game. I had, at the time, seven to nine copies of Serum Visions, that mediocre cantrip nobody cared about beause Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, etc. are cards that exist. I threw all but a playset of the Visions into repacks for our family's glorified garage-sale, thinking I couldn't move them on e-bay without paying as much in shipping as they were worth, and I didn't think more about it. Until everyone realized, a couple of months later, that bans had made Serum Visions the best cantrip in Modern, and the price quintupled.

Yeah, Serum Visions isn't anything like Candelabra or Imperial Recruiter or the duals, but I tell that story to ask these questions: what would happen to the price of shocklands if duals were banned in Legacy? They'd go up. Maybe way up. Would the increase in the price of said shocks help people get into the format? No. Would it hurt the odds that prospective players would get into Modern because of the collateral effect of increasing prices? Yes. Would banning duals have an adverse effect on the people who are Legacy stalwarts? Yes. Why? Because the price of their duals would go down and many people, I think, would take such bannings as a whipcrack to the jimmies. Would it "solve the problem with Legacy" to ban duals, City of Traitors, etc.? No, and there never WAS a problem, at least as far as gameplay is concerned.

I've complained about card prices for years, and I won't argue that it's not tough to sink hundreds of dollars into the land-base for a deck that's otherwise pretty similar to its incarnation in other formats. But if anything is killing Legacy, it's the stupidity of people who don't seem to notice that Tarmogoyf is more expensive than most of the dual lands, not the price of said dual lands or the fact that they're not coming back.