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[Primer/Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
https://artistsofmagic.com/distribut...l%20Silver.jpg
Legacy Countersliver
"Slivers are evil and slivers are sly; And if you get eaten, then no one will cry." - Mogg children's rhyme.
A Brief History of Countersliver (or "Back in the Day...")
In 1999, Chris Senhouse and his team shook up the Extended format by garnering several top 8 PTQ berths with their “House of Slivers” creation, which was basically a port of the well-known Type 2 Countersliver deck. Employing the ever-potent trio of Crystalline, Muscle and Winged Sliver as his primary win condition, Senhouse filled out the rest of the deck with counterspells, card-drawers and utility spells. The deck was well-equipped to handle the powerhouse Extended decks of the time, with Crystalline/Worship lock to frustrate Sligh, countermagic to thwart High Tide combo, and countermagic + disenchants to combat Necropotence decks. While Senhouse's initial version ran just three colors (UWG), the deck eventually evolved (with the help of other innovators) into a 4-color variant with black for Hibernation Sliver, Duress and most importantly, the overpowered (and now banned) Demonic Consultation. Countersliver continued to have good success until mid-2000, at which point it fell out of favor due to shifts in the Extended metagame. Once the Revised dual lands rotated out of Extended in 2002, the Countersliver archetype rotated out with them.
Put out to pasture in the Legacy format, Countersliver languished in obscurity for several years, barely played, but not quite forgotten. Around 2006, it reemerged as "MeatHooks," a moniker derived from the hook-like appearance of sliver appendages. Though it was never considered a Tier 1 power, it managed to gain some traction in the metagame for a while. Employing Plated Sliver alongside the usual cadre of Crystalline/Muscle/Winged, the deck's primary appeal was that it was very strong against Goblins, which was considered the strongest deck in the format at the time. However, metagames evolve, and it wasn't long before Goblins began to fade from power. As Goblins receded from prominence, Countersliver began to lose relevance. At the center of this was WotC's commitment to printing increasingly powerful creatures, such as Tarmogoyf. As individual creatures became stronger and more efficient, the hive strategy of slivers became less and less enticing. However, WotC wasn't done with slivers, and with M14 and M15 came a batch of new sliver cards for us to play with. M14 was particularly bountiful, providing highly useful new slivers in the form of Galerider, Predatory, Striking, and Syphon. Then a few years later came the Modern Horizons set to gift us with Cloudshredder Sliver and Unsettled Mariner. Combined with the printing of Cavern of Souls, Sliver Hive, and Unclaimed Territory to bolster a traditionally fragile manabase, there may now be enough tools to breathe life back into this dormant archetype.
Building Countersliver
Previous versions of Legacy Countersliver were typically built to operate on 3 colors (UWG) or 4 colors (UWGB). The manabase consisted largely of dual lands and fetches, with 1 or 2 basics and some mutavaults. Fill out the deck with the obvious core slivers, as well as aether vials, brainstorms, forces, dazes, and plows, and you had yourself a Countersliver deck.
More recently, with the printing of a variety of new rainbow lands and efficient slivers, the deck has evolved into a full-fledged 5-color deck that eschews cantrips, plows, and non-Force counterspells in favor of cramming in as many good slivers as possible. Most notable has been the repeated success of Daniel Nunes with lists very much like the following:
A modern update of the more traditional Countersliver build would look something like the one below. What makes it "traditional" is the complete lack of red, a high blue count, and the barebones fetch/dual/basic engine facilitating the inclusion of Brainstorm. The manabase is surprisingly robust. Any island + rainbow land casts every 2cc spell in the deck. With full sets of dazes and forces, this list packs a good amount of disruption.
And here is a UWGR variant that forgoes Hibernation Sliver for Cloudshredder Sliver.
And finally, if money is tight, you can start with the following list and work your way up to the Nunes "All-In" list.
The Manabase
You want to run 20 lands, give or take. Start with 4x Cavern of Souls, 0-2x Karakas, 0-4x Mutavault/Wasteland. For the rest of it, you have two choices: 1) fill up with more rainbow lands, or 2) cram in a fetch/dual engine so you can run Brainstorm. Look to the above lists for examples of both strategies.
The order of preference for rainbow lands is Cavern of Souls >>> Unclaimed Territory > Sliver Hive > Ancient Ziggurat. Why Unclaimed Territory over Sliver Hive? Because Unclaimed Territory can name "Humans" for your hatebears out of the sideboard, and because you will *never* use Sliver Hive's tertiary ability in competitive Legacy play.
As for Mutavault vs Wasteland, it's a matter of debate. Mutavault is a natural fit, but Wasteland is also good for all the reasons you'd expect Wasteland to be good. One observation I'll make is that Unsettled Mariner + Wasteland = good synergy. In any case, pick one or the other and run with it.
Maindeck Choices
Aether Vial: Put your slivers into play uncounterably and play combat tricks on your opponent. Automatic 4-of.
Crystalline Sliver: Still the MVP. Listen to your opponent groan as it comes into play. Automatic 4-of.
Hibernation Sliver: Provides resilience to Terminus and Wrath effects, as well as acting as sort of a poor man’s Crystalline. Also useful for dealing with Jitte, Deathtouch, Griselbrand, and other annoyances.
Unsettled Mariner: This changeling gladly joins your hive and provides a bit of maindeck disruption against targeted removal, burn, tendrils of agony, and the like.
Sinew Sliver/Muscle Sliver/Predatory Sliver: Lordy lordy, them slivers are beefy! Make room for at least 8.
Cloudshredder Sliver: A 2-drop that gives your hive flying AND haste? Yes, please.
Galerider Sliver: Flying breaks stalemates and delivers the coup de grace. Automatic 4-of.
Striking Sliver: A nice one-drop that gives your hive first strike. Don’t knock it.
Sidewinder Sliver/Plated Sliver: More one-drops to round out the curve. Both are solid, if not spectacular. Which one is preferred depends on your metagame.
Force of Will: Puts the "counter" in countersliver.
Brainstorm: Only viable if you're playing a fetch/dual manabase to support it. In fact, if you're playing fetches and duals but not Brainstorm, then what are you doing?
Ponder: If Brainstorm is the best cantrip, this is easily the second best one. In some situations, it's actually better, as it allows you to potentially look at 4 fresh cards when searching for the thing you need.
Swords to Plowshares: Again, only viable if you're playing fetches and duals. This card would be a secondary reason to do so. You probably don't want to play any more than 2 or 3 plows, and 0 is perfectly acceptable.
Daze: In years gone by, this card was a staple in the deck. Its purpose was to help stick turn 1 aether vial or turn 2 crystalline sliver, and to buy you an extra turn against combo decks. It can still serve that purpose. However, you need to actually be playing islands for it to work. I wouldn't advise it in builds that run fewer than 8 islands or ways to fetch islands.
FAQ
Q: Should I keep this 1-land hand?
A: A tricky question. If you have a vial and can play it, then probably yes. Otherwise, it depends. Sometimes you can get by with making one-drops for a couple of turns until you draw out of it. Sometimes you get wastelanded to death or take too long to find another land. Them's the breaks.
Q: Merfolk does is better.
A: That isn't a question. I can tell because there isn't a question mark at the end. But, yeah, okay, maybe. What of it?
Q: What happens if I attack with flanking, and my opponent blocks with Ice-Fang Coatl or Baleful Strix?
A: The deathtouch creature dies before it can deliver damage. Your creature survives, but is still blocked.
Q: Does flanking stack?
A: Yes.
Q: Does Unsettled Mariner's effect apply to cards that say "without paying its mana cost?"
A: Yes.
Q: Does Unsettled Mariner's effect apply to spells that "can't be countered?"
A: Yes, but they can safely ignore the effect.
Q: What about this really awesome sliver that costs 4 or 5 mana?
A: It's too difficult to cast. Even 3cc slivers are mostly unplayable.
Q: Slivers are the coolest!
A: Again, not a question. But yes, yes they are.
Tournament History & Proven Lists
mtgtop8.com <-- Select Legacy format and search for decks with maindeck Crystalline Sliver
hareruyamtg.com
Credits
Chris Lennon (Volt)
James Hammer (Pinder)
Brian Crownhart (Maverick676)
John Thomas (xsockmonkeyx)
Gordy Goetz (Tosh)
Sam Blau (Kronicler)
and the rest of Team InfoNinja.
Also, special thanks to Kicks_422, who coined 'MeatHooks' as an alternate deck name for Countersliver.
References & Additional Reading
Who's the Beatdown?
The Secret Life of Slivers
A Sliver Story
Sliver Me Timbers
Sliver Anatomy
Prisoner of the Skep; or, How I Encountered the Slivers—and Lived to Tell the Tale!
Tales from the Crypt Sliver
Take the Sliver Quiz!
Sliver Pâté
This Hive is No Mos Eisley
A Sliver of a Chance
A Sliver of Direction
Slivers
Deck of the Day: Modern Slivers
Treasure Cruisin' Pauper Slivers
Modern Slivers with Modern Horizons
Slivers Through History
10 Strongest Cards for a Sliver Commander Deck
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
How to Sideboard
Much of your sideboard will be devoted to combo. In matchups where Force of Will is good, you want to increase your blue count after sideboard, or at the very least don't reduce it. Avoid siding out any of your "lords," i.e. Sinew/Predatory/Muscle. Most of the time, you'll be siding out things like Sidewinder, Striking, and Cloudshredder. Against the unfair decks, I tend to side out Cloudshredders first, as the one-drops smooth out your mana curve and generally do more for your clock.
Matchups
Under construction. If you want to help out with this endeavor, let me know in the replies.
Generally, slivers do well against most “fair” decks, and so-so to poor against “unfair” decks.
RUG Delver: positive/favorable
Countersliver is about a 60/40 favorite here, give or take. If your opponent opens with turn 1 Delver, strongly consider Forcing it, especially if you're on the draw or have a slow start. Cavern of Souls is a juicy Wasteland target for your opponent, so keep that first Cavern in your hand until you're going to use it. If you're also playing Wasteland, you generally want to try to keep your opponent off red. However, I've found that using your first turn to waste your opponent's land is usually a losing play, as they have probably either cantripped or summoned a creature. If they used their first turn to play a volcanic island and bolt you, then go ahead and waste it, because they probably kept a subpar hand and their big plan is to play Dreadhorde Arcanist or Tarmogoyf next turn. Otherwise, spending your first turn wasting their land is likely just going to solidify their lead. Better to develop your board instead.
Burn: negative/unfavorable
This is a bad matchup, something like 70/30 against you, unless you're running maindeck Chalices. It's made worse by the fact that you probably don't have much help in your sideboard. Your best bet is to slow them down with Mariners, apply quick beats, and Force whatever you can along the way. Try to minimize your exposure to Price of Progress by fetching basics if you have them, and not playing non-basics that you don't need. If you're running Wasteland, play them out and keep them untapped so you can waste your own lands in response to Price of Progress.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Welcome in the new thread, fellow Hivelords!
Fitting for the new start, I fiel like I've never had this much fun before while playing Magic ^^
This weekend is Nebraska's War in Italy, one of the biggest European Tournament weekends, and I got 10th out of 103 in the Trial for the Legacy Main Event tomorrow :D
The List I ran was - as I suggested - a Merfolk-like take on Slivers. I really loved it <3
Creatures (28):
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
Spells (11):
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
Lands (21):
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
Sideboard (15):
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
2 Echoing Truth
2 Negate
2 Flusterstorm
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
The Tournament was 7 rounds and then Top 8, which I obviously couldn't participate in.
Round 1 against Nicholas with Aggro Loam: 2-1
Game 1 I mulled to six and kept a mediocre Hand. After he started strong I conceded with him only seeing a Misty. Game 2 I simply spammed the board protected by Crystalline. Game 3 was close - after he discarded Crystalline Turn 1 and followed up with a turn 2 Liliana, I crawled back on Top of 2 Vial, a Hibernation and a Predatory, soon to be followed by a RiP and a Chalice on 2 (of which both didn't survive for long), staring at a Knight with Maze of Ith and no Lands to tutor up Depths for the Combo kill. When I finally drew more Slivers, I could overwhelm him.
Round 2 against Frederico with Grixis Delver: 2-0
Both very uninteractive Games. He won the Die roll, started both Games with T1 Deathrite into T2 Pyromancer, after which he dazed all my Slivers despite them being uncounterable through Cavern, just to get Tokens.
Round 3 against Andrea with Miracles: 2-0
Lost the Die roll again, oh well. He forced my Turn 1 Vial and didn't play anything else for the rest of the Game die to me slamming a Chalice on 1 Turn 2, except for a last effort Jace to bounce a Sliver. Didn't even buy him a turn. Game 2 it was Turn 2 Crystalline into Turn 3 Hibernation backed up by Lords, and I was able to Force a Terminus. These Games were over really quick.
Round 4 against *didn't note the name* with Sneak & Show: 2-1
Really nice guy, we had a lot of fun. I lost the Die roll again, and died to a Turn 2 Griselbrand. Game 2 I assembled a fast clock, and when he finally got a Griselbrand in, I copied it with Image from a Vial, he had to chumpblock, and I drew into a lot of cards, killing him. Game 3 was similar, only with a Containment Priest and a few Pyroclasms getting involved in the fun, making this Game 3 an extremely close one.
Round 5 against Lukas with Storm: 0-2
This guy ended up winning the Tournament. I finally won the Die Roll, but had to mull to 5 both Games into hands with no interaction. Game 2 I also made a silly misplay by countering the wrong Spell :/
Round 6 against Lorenzo with Merfolk: 1-2
Yeah, it really hurt to get pushed out of the Top 8 by the bigger brother. This Matchup feels like one of those that depends strongly on who wins the Die roll - which I lost.
Round 7 against Luca with Storm: 2-1
Lost Game 1, built a strong counterwall Game 2, and was really lucky Game 3 that he fizzled under a Chalice @0, while he had a Xanthid Swarm to blank my Countermagic.
I was really impressed by the Manabase, never had any problems casting my Slivers. What was a Problem, on the other Side, was keeping UU open to double counter against Storm or Sneak Show. Because of that I'll try replacing the Negates in my board with Meddling Mages - especially against Storm I can put one Cavern on Human, easing her Manacost a bit. Creatures are easier to cast than Instants, with all those Caverns ;)
The rest of my board seems fine to me.
Syphon Sliver never did anything meaningful the whole Day, and I got suggestions to replace it with Darkheart Sliver, because this one should be faster. Currently, Syphon's staring, but Darkheart might at least be worth some consideration.
Have fun Slivering :P
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
Legacy Countersliver
"Slivers are evil and slivers are sly; And if you get eaten, then no one will cry." - Mogg children's rhyme.
Great prime on Slivers! Thanks a lot for refreshing and summarizing information on the deck. Like this new illustration of Crystalline Sliver, by the way :).
Would like to share a few thoughts:
- Mutavault will not be able to block Progenitus as Progenitus has protection from everything.
- Winged Sliver still can be a good choice because of its mana cost - 2cmc. In case of using Chalice of the Void (most likely with one counter) and having no Cavern of Souls in play, we won't be able to cast Galerider Sliver. And in most cases our Aether Vial will be set for two. So we would be able to cast or sneak into play Winged Sliver much easier and it can be a great surprise at the end of Declare Attackers Step.
- Perhaps, it makes sense to add this link http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Slivers to help unfamiliar with the Rath block players understand the history of Slivers. Just for gameplay fun :).
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Welcome to the new digs, guys! Make yourselves at home.
Thanks, Chronatog, for catching my error regarding Mutavault and Progenitus. I will update the primer.
I have some tournament results to report, myself. I went to my local Saturday night Legacy tournament at Time Vault, in downtown Portland, OR. Kind of a light crowd tonight, only 11 players, but they were all pretty solid, with pretty solid decks. This place basically is the Portland Legacy metagame, as far as I can tell. I decided to give ol' Chalice Slivers a go. Here's the list I ran:
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
2 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
SB:
3 Containment Priest
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Harmonic Sliver
3 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Submerge
1 Vapor Snag
The sideboard wasn't ideal. I threw it together at the last second. Anyway, on to the games.
Round 1 vs Sneak and Show.
G1: I don't know what he's playing. He mulls to 5, and I think "yay!" He casts Show and Tell on turn 2. I don't have Force. He drops Emrakul into play. There's no way I can deal with that, so I scoop.
G2: His hand is slower this time. He does eventually cast Show and Tell again, dropping Emrakul into play again. However, he's at 10 life, and I'm able to swing with my sliver team and punch through exactly 10 damage.
G3: I get quick sliver beats. Around turn 4 or so, he taps out to play Sneak Attack. It resolves. On my turn, I play Pithing Needle. Has has the force. Damn. I swing with my team, bringing him down to 1 life, and pass the turn. On his turn, he sneaks Emrakul in to play and swings, bringing me down to 4 life and wiping my entire board. I have an Aether Vial in hand, but no land. I top-deck a land and play Aether Vial. He draws nothing for the next few turns, until I vial in a Crystalline and kill him with it. Whew!
Never saw Chalice, but 1-0
Round 2 vs UR Splinter Twin combo
So, um, yeah, he was playing an updated version of the Splinter Twin deck from Modern. I lost to it 2-0. Kind of embarrassing. Moving on...
Never saw Chalice, now 1-1
Round 3 vs Tin Fins
G1: On the first turn, he plays Mox Diamond, Probes me, then therapies the Force out of my hand, then dark rituals Liliana into play. A couple turns later, I scoop.
G2: I didn't do anything special. His deck just kinda shit on itself, and I won.
G3: I land Containment Priest on T2 and ride it to victory.
Again, no Chalice. Zero Chalices in 3 matches, but I'm 2-1.
Round 4 vs Burn
G1: I land turn 1 Aether Vial, turn 2 Chalice (about friggin time!) and coast to victory.
G2: He Smashes my early Aether Vial, then lands a Sulfuric Vortex the turn before Syphon Sliver was going to hit the board. I get him down to 2 life, but he burns me out.
G3: This looked bad. I mulled to 6 and kept a 1-land hand with Aether Vial. It stuck for 1 turn before he blew it up with an Ingot Chewer. I had 1 land and a Galerider in play, but Crystalline and lots of muscle in hand. I needed to topdeck a land NOW. Luckily, I did. Crystalline hit the board, followed by Sinew, Sinew, and I outraced him.
And that was it. I finished 3-1.
Comments: I saw one Chalice in 11 games, but it was amazing in that one game. Syphon Sliver almost mattered in one game, but otherwise was a no-show as well. I've really liked it in my on-line playtesting, but it was a non-factor tonight. I was pretty happy with the manabase. I upped the land count to 22, and included a couple of Ancient Ziggurats. The Ziggurats don't help with casting Chalice, obviously, but otherwise work pretty well. They're actually the best lands for casting hate-bears in games 2-3.
Kind of a weird night as far as my draws, but a pretty decent result. Way too small a sample to make any sort of determination as to whether Chalice > Brainstorm in this deck.
ED: Nice job on your tournament result, Khamul!
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Just to chime in, here is my latest build
1 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Mana Confluence
2 Reflecting Pool
2 Tundra
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
1 Winged Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Æther Vial
4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Containment Priest
I still don't know whether the mana base with fetch+blue dual lands is better than the one I use:
- You might get flooded a bit more with my mana base (but I believe that the odds of drawing a business card instead of another land when it matters is after fetch n°3 or 4) but you will be able to fully use Mutavault (more likely to at least), every turn.
- You are stifle proof with mine
- I dunno what mana base is best for playing a hatebear oriented sideboard.
Keep rocking guys !
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
I can tell you that I've tried Reflecting Pool before, with very mixed results. I suspect you'll find them unsatisfactory over the long haul. And pain lands? Man, I dunno. Good luck, though.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
why not cut 1 pool, 1 zigg and play 2 more confluence? is the life that important in this kind of deck outside of the burn matchup?
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mistercakes
why not cut 1 pool, 1 zigg and play 2 more confluence? is the life that important in this kind of deck outside of the burn matchup?
As a matter of fact, yes.
Hibernation Sliver is no joke and you end up using a lot its ability.
@ Void:
The 2 reflection pool are outstanding right now (I think 2 might actually be the best number to not be screwed):
- you have very little odds to open a starting hand with the 2 of them and with so many rainbow lands your chances to be screwed by a wasteland are also pretty low.
- as a matter of fact RP are rarely "wastelanded", so any rainbow land draw put you right back in the game.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
As a matter of fact, yes.
Hibernation Sliver is no joke and you end up using a lot its ability.
@ Void:
The 2 reflection pool are outstanding right now (I think 2 might actually be the best number to not be screwed):
- you have very little odds to open a starting hand with the 2 of them and with so many rainbow lands your chances to be screwed by a wasteland are also pretty low.
- as a matter of fact RP are rarely "wastelanded", so any rainbow land draw put you right back in the game.
forgot about hibernation, good point.
drawing 2 reflecting pools shouldn't be the only concern. drawing reflecting pool + mutavault can also limit you, there will be games when you only draw 3 lands, and if the only color producing land is wastelanded, that would be a bad way to lose.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
I think I'm pretty much all-in on the Chalice strategy at this point, guys. Is there a valid reason not to run 4 as opposed to 3?
The main thing to figure out at this point seems to be exactly how to fill out the rest of the manabase, once you get past 4 Mutavault, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Sliver Hive. Ziggurats are pretty good, except you can't use them to cast Aether Vial or Chalice. I'm running 2 at the moment, but looking for better options. I doubt pain-lands are the way to go, but maybe it's the best of a bunch of less-than-ideal options.
Also, I'd like to suggest that 22 might be the correct number of lands to be running, given our complicated color demands, lack of cantrips, and the amount of Wastelands in the format.
I've updated the primer to include some discussion of Brainstorm vs Chalice.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
I think I'm pretty much all-in on the Chalice strategy at this point, guys. Is there a valid reason not to run 4 as opposed to 3?
The main thing to figure out at this point seems to be exactly how to fill out the rest of the manabase, once you get past 4 Mutavault, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Sliver Hive. Ziggurats are pretty good, except you can't use them to cast Aether Vial or Chalice. I'm running 2 at the moment, but looking for better options. I doubt pain-lands are the way to go, but maybe it's the best of a bunch of less-than-ideal options.
Also, I'd like to suggest that 22 might be the correct number of lands to be running, given our complicated color demands, lack of cantrips, and the amount of Wastelands in the format.
I've updated the primer to include some discussion of Brainstorm vs Chalice.
1) I'm running the 4th Chalice in the Board (instead of my lone Thalia). I don't know what to cut MD to play the 4th and I'm not sure the deck needs that kind of commitment.
2) Ziggurat does not tap for Mutavault (as well). And this is rather annoying (this explains why I play only one).
3) Pain lands are pain lands. I lost between 2 and 3 lifes on average using them. The earlier you get them the more they will hurt you (but fixing color is key). With your manabase, I would try -1 Ziggurat +1 Pain land/Undiscovered. It will ease casting chalice T2 (and echoing post board). I believe we can sustain no more than 2 pain lands.
4) Playing a blue dual lands + fetch manabase might be the best choice in a vacuum but this has to be tested:
- against stifle decks
- against merfolk
- against bloodmoon decks
- against burn
- against the meta
I feel the key for Slivers to be T2 /1,5 lives within the manabase configuration; if we don't resolve a slivo per turn in the very first turns, we are doomed.
We could proceed like that to determine the best manabase:
What is mandatory to be cast ?
T1= Vial / Galerider
T2= Chalice / Hibernation / Crystalline (lords might not be mandatory here)
Etc...
5) I got flooded a bit last week-end playing my former 21 lands build (-2 horizon canopy +1 Trop +1 undiscovered paradise). So definitely a 22 lands config seems to be a "tad" much. To be explored anyway with 4).
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
I actually upped my Brainstorm build to 21 lands a while ago, and it never felt like too many. I figured if I'm cutting Brainstorms for Chalices, I really oughta add another land. But it's basically impossible to tell the difference one land makes. You can get mana-flooded running 20 lands, and mana-screwed running 21 lands. There's a lot of statistical noise in the short term. You have to play zillions of games to get a feel for what's right. Anyway, I'm encouraged by the progress we're making.
ED: Let's discuss sideboarding strategy, particularly in regards to Chalice. When is it appropriate to side them out?
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
I think I'm pretty much all-in on the Chalice strategy at this point, guys. Is there a valid reason not to run 4 as opposed to 3?
I think 3 CoV in MD and 1 in SB is a good combination. My logic is simple - mana base is an issue and it is important to resolve Vial early in the game (turn one, ideally); and many decks play around CoV anyway so I wouldn't hold to it as a lifesaver.
I'm still assembling my Slivers deck, so will be able to test it later. So please take my commentary as a theoretical exercise based on practical application in Merfolks.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
I actually upped my Brainstorm build to 21 lands a while ago, and it never felt like too many. I figured if I'm cutting Brainstorms for Chalices, I really oughta add another land. But it's basically impossible to tell the difference one land makes. You can get mana-flooded running 20 lands, and mana-screwed running 21 lands. There's a lot of statistical noise in the short term. You have to play zillions of games to get a feel for what's right. Anyway, I'm encouraged by the progress we're making.
Perhaps, if Braninstorm does not work well with CoV, we can try Impulse?
But again, if we cannot win without CoV and it is so critical to have it, perhaps we need to adjust the entire strategy?
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Impulse used to see play in Countersliver, actually, back before the deck graduated to Legacy. This will be giving away my old age, but I used to play Countersliver back when it was a Standard (or Type II, as we called it back then) deck. Also, Wall of Blossoms got played in that deck, so... Yeah.
I don't think we "need" Chalice to win, at least not all the time. I mean, just look at my tournament report a few posts up. I drew it once in eleven games, which is kind of freakish, and still went 3-1 in matches. But, I mean, Chalice for 1 is such a goddamn beating against a lot of decks, especially in game 1 when they typically don't have an answer for it. I guess I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind playing 3 and not 4. I mean, do we care that duplicates may be dead? As long as we resolve one, we should be favored. Delver decks, for example, just roll over and die if you stick a turn 2 Chalice. Then there's Elves, Burn, storm combo, etc. And even against decks where it's not so great, do we really think having that 4th Chalice in the main is going to be the difference between winning or losing game 1? I understand that 3 seems to be the accepted number for Merfolk decks (right?) but I'm not sure how that was arrived at.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Might be time to update my sig here. I like to think my salvation sig is much more helpful, because it includes links like this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=892927662
I apologize if comparisons to other decks are getting old, but I feel like I should make them as long as they're relevant.
3 Chalices main: the reason why Merfolk tends to run 3 main is because it also runs generic answer/threats in the form of Echoing Truth, Clique, Jitte, and Image. Running a fourth Chalice (1) increases the chance of opening on a pair (when you can't cast any T1) and (2) reduces the number of these arguably more generic cards that can be run (i.e. my sig). Do you really need the full playset in the main when you never need to see one one turn 1? I'd say no.
Search/sift: Merfolk has Adept and Clique to draw and replace cards. Compared to us, I'd say they're slightly more redundant (the lords, Nemeses, Images, and Cliques all provide evasive beats, the Adept will often draw into evasive beats). As a counterpoint, we have beats, evasion, protection, but they're less redundant because they only come one at a time. In other words, we might have an ideal set of 4 creatures that's quite powerful, but most random selections of 4 creatures from Merfolk will be a pain. If we're to increase the consistency of our threat package, we may need to add some search/sift to ensure we can field the correct assortment of slivers.
Second comparison would be to Death and Taxes, where all recent innovation has pointed towards splashing, and the primary reason why is for library manipulation.
And lastly, it confuses me that Sylvan Library doesn't get any love here. I would play 2 Sylvan Library before even considering the first Impulse assuming we're on a fetchland manabase.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Actually, I'd be willing to consider Sylvan Library, but you should realize our manabase isn't particularly good for casting colored non-creature spells. Especially non-blue spells. Impulse would be easier to cast, at least, but I don't think it's worth seriously considering.
Quick note on Merfolk and D&T, since you brought them up. My playtesting suggests we have 50/50 or better matchups vs both. Doesn't necessarily mean we have a "better" deck vs the overall metagame, but just thought I'd point that out.
I seem to be on the wrong/unpopular side of the Chalice debate, so I'll let it go. And by that I mean I'll try running 4, until enlightenment comes to me.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
I seem to be on the wrong/unpopular side of the Chalice debate, so I'll let it go. And by that I mean I'll try running 4, until enlightenment comes to me.
Your list is running 3 !
Chalice is there because with FOW we have 7 cards that matter against fast combo G1 (which could be seen as "enough" protection for a G1 or at least not completely naked should you face a nasty T1/T2 combo deck).
Against fair decks chalice is just a mean to slow down the opponent's game's pace (At least enough for us to be able to build a lethal board).
It can also be seen as virtual cards' advantage in a deck where we don't pack any draw spells.
The main issue with Slivers is that we are (like Merfolk) a slow aggro deck. It takes time to build a board.
Blanking on average 2 cards in an opponent's hand is virtually 2 cards advantage / 2 more turns to kill your opponent.
If you take a sample hand of Slivers, you don't get to the lethal point until T6 /T7. Chalice gives us at least 2 more turns (and straight kill our opponent sometimes; that's what you get for playing unfair, niark)
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
Your list is running 3 !
Chalice is there because with FOW we have 7 cards that matter against fast combo G1 (which could be seen as "enough" protection for a G1 or at least not completely naked should you face a nasty T1/T2 combo deck).
Against fair decks chalice is just a mean to slow down the opponent's game's pace (At least enough for us to be able to build a lethal board).
It can also be seen as virtual cards' advantage in a deck where we don't pack any draw spells.
The main issue with Slivers is that we are (like Merfolk) a slow aggro deck. It takes time to build a board.
Blanking on average 2 cards in an opponent's hand is virtually 2 cards advantage / 2 more turns to kill your opponent.
If you take a sample hand of Slivers, you don't get to the lethal point until T6 /T7. Chalice gives us at least 2 more turns (and straight kill our opponent sometimes; that's what you get for playing unfair, niark)
I ran 3 at that tournament, yes. I was copycatting. It was the first time I had even tried Chalices in the deck, honestly. But now I'm questioning the number. My list in the primer contains 4 Chalices, fwiw.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
My main points were whether it would take the place of a more useful card, and how likely it is that you draw multiples without wanting to, especially early. 4 might be right, especially if those points don't apply.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
It makes me sad that the deck could benefit so much from Sylvan Library but can't easily support it. Another example of this increasingly being a multicolor deck that can't capitalize on being multicolor.
P.S. I wonder why we didn't run Libraries back in the day.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
I'm playing 3 Syphon 2 Libraries up to now.
One Island and one forest allows us to play many tricks if every other land can provide you 1 colorless..
so:
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
I fix mana with 2 Manaweft MD (they also help a lot to gain advantage of Hive) and only Crystalline/Hibernation/Syphon as non U/G creatures.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
@Volt: why wouldn't we replace Sylvan Library with Sensei Divining Top? Synergy with COTV is bad but for the rest it is colorless and does the job
@Ralf: I'm still working on the SB why did you choose Thorn of Amethist over Thalia?
I was thinking of:
The core
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Harmonic Sliver
2 Submerge
Then to be discussed:
2 Meddling Mage (hard to cast?)
2 Containment Priest
3 Rest in Peace (or Faerie Macabre?)
2 Vapor Snag or 2 Echoing Truth
For the rest I run Khamul's deck - 1 Phantasmal Image + 1 Echoing Truth and find it pretty solid.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ultrab77
@Volt: why wouldn't we replace Sylvan Library with Sensei Divining Top? Synergy with COTV is bad but for the rest it is colorless and does the job
@Ralf: I'm still working on the SB why did you choose Thorn of Amethist over Thalia?
For the rest I run Khamul's deck - 1 Phantasmal Image + 1 Echoing Truth and find it pretty solid.
@ Thread:
To be honest, without card selection, I don't think 2x Sylvan Library are useful.
It dilutes your core strategy and would require 4 slots to be effective.
SL tends to be slow as well and nonbo with Hibernation Sliver and you would need a lot of shuffling effect to take full advantage of it (4/5 fetchs is not what I would call a lot ...)
From my point of view 4 hibernation + 4 Crystalline + 3 COTV are already plenty card advantage in a certain form (virtual card advantage if you prefer) and the deck does not need more of them.
@ Ultrab77
I was playing 2 Thorns + 1 Thalia. This has evolved into 2 Thorns + 1 COTV.
I think we are all testing different SB config. Thalia may make a come back but I still have to assess the general sideboard tables before making any other move.
Yet, I'm a proponent for the heavy oriented hatebear sideboard strat.
Here are a few remarks:
- Submerge is a card for Tempo deck. Without Daze, Pierce, Wasteland, I think our Sliver version is no longer a tempo deck. Don't get me wrong, this does not mean that the card is bad or that the card won't win you any game but alas, the card is too narrow and I'm not afraid of green creature or deck playing "forest". I want something that has a broader application than Submerge.
- Playing 1 CMC spell in a COTV build is asking for troubles. As we have basically no card selection, drawing those cards in the wrong order can screw you big time.
- I don't think Harmonic Sliver deserves 3 slots anymore. With 2 truth SB, 2 Harmonic seems enough (stone decks are on a low trend).
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
SDT: Aside from being a non-bo with Chalice, which is probably reason enough not to play it, it's not something we can really get on-line until several turns into the game. We want to spend the early turns tapping out to play slivers, not spending mana to twiddle a top. Also, most of the lists we've been discussing more recently are only running ~4 fetchlands, which diminishes SDT's utility.
Sylvan Library would be better, because it dodges Chalice, and no further investment is required beyond the initial 2cc. But as previously noted, our manabase just isn't very good at producing colored mana for non-creature spells. The focus has been on streamlining the deck to simply churn out slivers.
I am kind of curious about Poron's list, which has apparently been tailored to support Sylvan Library, and eschews Sinew Sliver. I'm guessing it looks like this?
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Manaweft Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
2 Sylvan Library
3 Chalice of the Void (???)
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Heh. I only just noticed Ralf's ninja post.
I'm also a proponent of the hate-bear strategy. Here's what I came up with when I was tinkering with my sideboard last night.
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Echoing Truth
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
1 Darkheart Sliver
The Revokers might become Meddling Mages or Thalias. I'm also going to reconsider the Submerges.
Rest in Peace is fantastic, but might need to be Faerie Macabres, as Ralf advocates, just because of color issues. Although I should mention that at the last tournament I played, I brought in Faerie Macabres against Tin Fins, and the guy ended up Probing me, saw a Macabre in my hand, then dropped Pithing Needle on it. They can also just get Therapied out of your hand right before the guy's about to go off. So, I dunno.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
Rest in Peace is fantastic, but might need to be Faerie Macabres, as Ralf advocates, just because of color issues. Although I should mention that at the last tournament I played, I brought in Faerie Macabres against Tin Fins, and the guy ended up Probing me, saw a Macabre in my hand, then dropped Pithing Needle on it. They can also just get Therapied out of your hand right before the guy's about to go off. So, I dunno.
RIP is the better card.
But whether RIP is better than Faerie has to be assessed.
As a matter of fact, I'm not sure we really need to shut off graveyard strategy entirely.
Punish ? well we have Crystalline + Hibernation + Lords.
Dredge ? RIP > Faerie maybe or not ? I feel I can just race. We can also fow the dread return and block to death to remove bridges. Faerie seems to be sufficient and faster.
Rea ? RIP might be too slow, can be dazed, spell pierced, FOWed... Faerie seems to be better (faster and uncounterable) here.
Loam ? Yeah here RIP is better. It shut off completely the loam engine until removed.
So, all in all, it is your call to make. But in a slow deck (by design), having an instant gravehate (coupled with other slower hate cards) against very fast & unfair deck is an overall better call (IMHO).
PS: COTV is another hate to graveyard strategy usually. It should either wreck your opponent or give you enough time to draw a counterpiece (should it be a Priest, a Faerie, a MM etc...)
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
That all makes sense. In a vacuum, I think I would prefer RiP overall. Unfortunately, my current Chalice Slivers list only has 6 lands that fetch or tap for white mana that can be used for non-creature spells. So, that probably rules RiP out.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
That all makes sense. In a vacuum, I think I would prefer RiP overall. Unfortunately, my current Chalice Slivers list only has 6 lands that fetch or tap for white mana that can be used for non-creature spells. So, that probably rules RiP out.
Just try out another manabase.
Mine is not perfect, yet but with some help, who knows...
Building a rainbow manabase is hard but higher the risk, higher the reward.
Once the coast is clear I can tell you it will be very fun & maybe more powerful than the blue one:
- turning off stifle is good
- no islandwalk
- not impacted by hate cards that usually deal with hatebears (massacre for example)
You have here 3 good reasons (that I can think of right now and maybe a fourth one if we succeed to make a rainbow manabase that gives us an overall better chance to play our colored slivers/hatebear) to go for a non fetchable blue manabase.
Here are the only cons I can think of right now:
- a bit more floods
- not having a basic in the deck (Burn/Blood Moon/the early waste that wrecks a hand you should not have kept anyway...)
Just some food for thoughts.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
RIP is the better card.
But whether RIP is better than Faerie has to be assessed.
As a matter of fact, I'm not sure we really need to shut off graveyard strategy entirely.
Punish ? well we have Crystalline + Hibernation + Lords.
Dredge ? RIP > Faerie maybe or not ? I feel I can just race. We can also fow the dread return and block to death to remove bridges. Faerie seems to be sufficient and faster.
Rea ? RIP might be too slow, can be dazed, spell pierced, FOWed... Faerie seems to be better (faster and uncounterable) here.
Loam ? Yeah here RIP is better. It shut off completely the loam engine until removed.
So, all in all, it is your call to make. But in a slow deck (by design), having an instant gravehate (coupled with other slower hate cards) against very fast & unfair deck is an overall better call (IMHO).
PS: COTV is another hate to graveyard strategy usually. It should either wreck your opponent or give you enough time to draw a counterpiece (should it be a Priest, a Faerie, a MM etc...)
That makes sense. For BUG and Threshold decks I think RIP would be better though and it represents more than 10% of the meta (dixit mtgtop8) in comparison with rea + dredge (together 3%).
I won't be able to test it much before January for I will be travelling a lot.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ultrab77
That makes sense. For BUG and Threshold decks I think RIP would be better though and it represents more than 10% of the meta (dixit mtgtop8) in comparison with rea + dredge (together 3%).
I won't be able to test it much before January for I will be travelling a lot.
Dunno if RIP is better.(But are we really afraid of BUG and RUG ?)
A countered RIP grows Tarmo and they will keep their pierce against us (vial + cotv). The likelyhood to resolve that spell is...hmmm.
Anyway, this has to be tested as I am willing to give up a % win rate against these decks (if we are ahead already) to gain a few % against decks we are struggling hard if you know what I mean.
PS: Faerie also enables combat tricks. I like combat tricks !
PS 2: Oh boyzz I forgot no fetch= less food for DRS, btw...
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Even if you convert all 9 of the flexible land slots (after 4 mutavault, 4 cavern, 4 hive) to undiscovered paradises, reflecting pools, horizon canopies, mana confluences and whatnot, that's still only 9 lands that will be able to produce the white mana to cast something like RiP. If I did the math right, you have about a 64% chance of drawing 1 of those 9 lands, plus at least 1 more land of any sort, in your first 8 cards. That doesn't seem good enough to me. So, I think we have to make do with bears, artifacts, and free spells.
That said, I'm going to work on reducing my reliance on fetches and islands.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Just to report back from Nebraska's War, I got annihilated at the Main Event. Worse, every loss I had was due to a misplay - mostly by fetching for the wrong Lands.
I've tweaked my List a bit more and came to this one:
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
2 Muscle Sliver
2 Darkheart Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
SB: 2 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Containment Priest
Darkheart Sliver is a flex Slot. I'll try testing 22 Lands by replacing those by 1 Winged 1 Fetch anytime soon. The main reason for Darkheart is Storm, because at 2 Mana it's faster than Syphon and reads pretty much like "every Sliver on board takes you one Storm count more to win". I like that.
I don't like the lone Echoing Truth Main, because I'm not a fan of random 1-ofs in a Deck without cantrips. I even don't play it maindeck in Merfolk.
Chalice is only at a 3-of because Slivers are not a Deck that can slam a Chalice turn 1 on the play. And there are enough Decks in the Format that aren't affected enough by a Chalice @1 that comes down Turn 2 otd, imo. Btw, as kirby pointed out, Chalice fights with Crystalline and Hibernation over the "blanks Removal" Slot. I'd rather have some lifegain or the 5th flying Sliver over the 4th Chalice main.
The biggest change I've made is to my Manabase. I really wann every Sliver to be castable with fetchable Land + Sliver land (Hive or Cavern; Darkheart is not included in the current equation because he's flex, and as a 2-of not that important), and I want to have a Dual configuration so that I can have all 4 colors in 2 Duals. So Scrubland gets the Slot over Savannah, because it can cast both Hibernation and Crystalline with the help of a Sliver Land.
I'm not playing 4 Hives because I can't realistically expect to be able to activate the Token ability, and because I want more of color-producing Lands for my Sideboard.
As we've already got a Sideboard discussion started, I jump right in:
I don't agree with a Board mostly composed of Hatebears against Storm. The reason is simple: Blue count. When I look at my preboard Blue count, I sit on a healthy 20, which is just enough to support Force.
But what do I board out against Storm? The worst cards I have against Storm are the Crystallines and the Winged Sliver, because they have the least threat factor on their own. But both are Blue, so if I want to stay at a healthy Blue count, I have to bring in Blue cards. Meddling Mage is the only Blue Hatebear, so it gets Slot one, but it's hard to cast, so not more than two. Flusterstorm is an overall good card, cheap Counterspell that doesn't need that much open Mana (I had Negate in an erlier List, but it was always a Pain to hold up the two Mana) and works well with Chalice.
And no, I don't side out my Vials. They speed the clock up tremendously, even if they can be a bad Topdeck.
For Submerge, it's not supposed to be a "Tempo card" in the way that it only works with Wasteland and Daze. It's supposed to be a cheap answer to Marit Lage and, to a lesser extent, Tarmogoyf. That said, I'm thinking of replacing the Submerges with Path to Exile, but I'm hesitant because Path's a nonbo with Chalice.
Faerie Macabre over RiP seems like a fair point, but I like to keep the Loam Decks completely shut off. Lands and Aggro Loam have enough outs to Chalice (which just breaks them on two), and in these MUs I see RiP as additional Chalice with the benefits of turning the recursion off completely, and being cheaper to cast.
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
@Khamul: is that the list you took to the tournament or is that the list you would build after experience? I notice no GY hate in your SB.
What were your matches and how did you felt MD and after SB?
How would you feel with the rainbow lands vs fetch + dual combination? (Ziggurat, reflecting pool, City of Brass etc.)
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Khamul
As we've already got a Sideboard discussion started, I jump right in:
I don't agree with a Board mostly composed of Hatebears against Storm. The reason is simple: Blue count. When I look at my preboard Blue count, I sit on a healthy 20, which is just enough to support Force.
But what do I board out against Storm? The worst cards I have against Storm are the Crystallines and the Winged Sliver, because they have the least threat factor on their own. But both are Blue, so if I want to stay at a healthy Blue count, I have to bring in Blue cards. Meddling Mage is the only Blue Hatebear, so it gets Slot one, but it's hard to cast, so not more than two. Flusterstorm is an overall good card, cheap Counterspell that doesn't need that much open Mana (I had Negate in an erlier List, but it was always a Pain to hold up the two Mana) and works well with Chalice.
And no, I don't side out my Vials. They speed the clock up tremendously, even if they can be a bad Topdeck.
For Submerge, it's not supposed to be a "Tempo card" in the way that it only works with Wasteland and Daze. It's supposed to be a cheap answer to Marit Lage and, to a lesser extent, Tarmogoyf. That said, I'm thinking of replacing the Submerges with Path to Exile, but I'm hesitant because Path's a nonbo with Chalice.
Faerie Macabre over RiP seems like a fair point, but I like to keep the Loam Decks completely shut off. Lands and Aggro Loam have enough outs to Chalice (which just breaks them on two), and in these MUs I see RiP as additional Chalice with the benefits of turning the recursion off completely, and being cheaper to cast.
Interesting point of view.
Here is my sideboarding strategy against Storm:
-4 Vial
-2 Muscle Sliver
-2 Predatory
-1 Winged Sliver
-2 Crystalline Sliver
2 Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Meddling Mage
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Echoing Truth
2 Faerie Macabre
I'm keeping my blue count @ a healthy 21.
Here are a few remarks:
1) I like to keep Syphon in as:
- It is another out to a T2 "Empty the Warrens" (I did it once and was pretty happy to race 12 Gob)
- It messes up with Tendrils if you get to resolve it
2) I don't keep Vial in (might be a mistake but I find it very slow and does not provide any kind of acceleration until T3):
- Bad draw when you have chalice @ 1, sucks in multiple
- Save Echoing Truth and Muta's activation, I'm playing a full tap strategy. And unlike D&T we don't have anything to do with our lands (save Muta's activation)
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ultrab77
@Khamul: is that the list you took to the tournament or is that the list you would build after experience? I notice no GY hate in your SB.
Oh, I forgot to list the 2 RiP in my current Sideboard ^^ Added them.
The List I played at the Side event was posted by me on page 1. At the main event, the only difference between that list and my list now was -1 Scrubland +1 Tundra. And I had some awkward fetch situations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ultrab77
What were your matches and how did you felt MD and after SB?
So, my Matches on Saturday were:
Aggro Loam: 2-1
Boarded:
otp: -4 Force, -3 Image; +2 RiP, +1 Needle, +2 Harmonic, +2 Submerge
otd: -2 Force, -3 Image; +2 RiP, +1 Needle, +2 Submerge
I like RiP in that MU, and an early Harmonic shuts off the acceleration through Mox as well as Sylvan Library. But as I'm very reliant on my own hate Artifacts and Enchantments, I don't board in Harmonic otd - here I leave in 2 Forces to be able to deal with an early Confidant or Library. Not going up to the playset of Chalice because 4 Mana is tough to reach, and until then you might just have drawn one of the three Chalices or a RiP.
Crystalline and Hibernation are, obviously, your best cards. Especially Hibernation, since the lifeloss is only half as severe against a Deck playing Grove of the Burnwillows.
Grixis Delver: 2-0
Boarded:
-2 Force; +1 Needle, +1 Chalice
Obvious choices, easy Matchup. I just have to avoid Wastelands, that's all.
Miracles: 2-0
Boarded:
-4 Force; +1 Needle, +1 Chalice, +2 Negate
(maybe leaving 2 Forces in in the new list, boarding out 2 Force 2 Darkheart for 1 Chalice 1 Needle 2 Meddling Mage)
Miracles just loathes Chalice @1, Crystalline and Hibernation make their removal seem silly. Very good Matchup. Mentor could be a problem, but you should be faster.
Sneak & Show: 2-1
Boarded:
otp: -4 Crystalline, -1 Winged, -1 Chalice; +2 Fluster, +2 Negate, +1 Needle, +1 Containment Priest
otd: -4 Crystalline, -1 Winged, -3 Chalice; +2 Fluster, +2 Negate, +1 Needle, +1 Containment Priest, +2 Harmonic
(Negate = Meddling Mage in the new List)
On the play, Chalice can at least hit some cantrips, but it's not that good against Sneak & Show. On the Draw, it's just horrible, so it goes out for Harmonic, which can at least prevent awkward Sneak Attack situations and destroy Blood Moon. Phantasmal Image is the best card, and just naming a Cavern on Human can be an incredibly great Bluff. Don't scoop to Griselbrand, because a flying blocker + bounce (hibernation) or sac (Darkheart) prevents the lifegain and therefore the card draw. Also good on the attack when he has to block with Griselbrand.
Storm: 0-2
Boarded:
-4 Crystalline, -2 Syphon, -1 Winged; +2 Fluster, +2 Negate, +1 Chalice, +2 RiP
(Negate = Meddling Mage in the new list, and Darkheart stays in the deck in the new list. Boarding out Life Gain was a mistake, even if Syphon is on the slower side. Maybe -1 Sinew, -1 Predatory instead)
The blue count really goes down in this list, but Hibernation can at least bounce itself or an Image to pitch for Force. I can still have Plan B to just go Aggro.
Merfolk: 1-2
Boarded:
-1 Force, -3 Chalice; +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Harmonic
One of the Matchups where I'd like to have some hard removal in the board. Maybe really Path over Submerge? Force can still counter their Vials or the Jitte, Chalice is worse. Harmonic deals with their Vials. Can be a bit awkward, but usually destroys theirs first or comes in as the last creature, so you don't care anymore.
With the new list having a non-Island land I can fetch into, I feel much more like being 50:50, speak: The one who goes first wins, against Merfolk. When you only have Island-based Lands to fetch into, Merfolk is favoured because they just have more evasion than you have.
Storm again: 2-1
On Sunday I played against:
Shardless BUG: 0-2
Boarded:
-2 Force, -1 Chalice, -1 Image; +2 RiP, +2 Submerge
(not sure if Meddling Mage over the other 2 Chalices would have been correct, maybe yes)
Chalice on 1 is meh, so I want it on 0 to stop Vision, all other CMCs are too diversified to really hit something. If they haven't cast any Goyfs yet, I would even try one @2.
Lost Game 1 to the nuts start of opponent otp Deathrite into Liliana into Jace.
Game 2 I fetched into Basic Island turn 1, resulting in me screwing myself as I only had fetchable lands. First time this should happen x(
Aggro Loam: 1-2
Lost game 1 to Punishing Fire, never saw a Crystalline of Hibernation. Won Game 2 and lost Game 3, again due to fetching to Island Turn 1 (feared Turn 2 Wasteland + anything too much, as I had no Turn 1 play). After my Sliver Hive got wasted, I had Tundra and Island in play, staring at a Liliana with Predatory, Hibernation and Darkheart in Hand, unable to cast any of these. Derp mode from my side x(
Grixis Delver: 0-2
Lost game 1 due to me being impatient and trading an attacking Crystalline with a Pyromancer where I could have just waited until I drew something. Didn't want him to get too many Pyromancer tokens, but waiting would have been the better option.
Game 2 I lost due to fetching to turn 1 Island again, this Time I had Island, U-Sea after one wasteland of my opponent on Cavern, not being able to play any of the Sinew, Predatory and Darkheart in my hand while my lone Crystalline Sliver was no match for Delver and Gurmag Angler.
After being 0-3 I dropped and spent a fine day on the beach.
Those derp fetches on Island showed me that I should be more brave by fetching on Duals if I have a 3rd Land in Hand, and that I should play a non-Island dual, to be able to have all colors just by fetching Duals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ultrab77
How would you feel with the rainbow lands vs fetch + dual combination? (Ziggurat, reflecting pool, City of Brass etc.)
I really don't like Ziggurat, because it can't even pay for Mutavault. And I'm terribly afraid of situations where I draw Mutavault + Pool. The best solution might actually be playing 4 City of Brass and 4 Mana confluence, but the life loss is really severe against Delver Decks. I haven't tested the Rainbow land approach, and it's definitely one of the next things I'll try out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
Interesting point of view.
Here is my sideboarding strategy against Storm:
-4 Vial
-2 Muscle Sliver
-2 Predatory
-1 Winged Sliver
-2 Crystalline Sliver
2 Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Meddling Mage
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Echoing Truth
2 Faerie Macabre
I'm keeping my blue count @ a healthy 21.
Here are a few remarks:
1) I like to keep Syphon in as:
- It is another out to a T2 "Empty the Warrens" (I did it once and was pretty happy to race 12 Gob)
- It messes up with Tendrils if you get to resolve it
2) I don't keep Vial in (might be a mistake but I find it very slow and does not provide any kind of acceleration until T3):
- Bad draw when you have chalice @ 1, sucks in multiple
- Save Echoing Truth and Muta's activation, I'm playing a full tap strategy. And unlike D&T we don't have anything to do with our lands (save Muta's activation)
Life Link is pretty relevant against Storm, that's why I'm currently even at Darkheart over Syphon (which can change soon, btw. But I feel more comfortable with Darkheart in the unfair matches) I boarded Syphon out because it's the slowest Sliver, and I'm unsure about boarding out Lords. Now I see that it's a mistake boarding out lifelink and agree with you that it should stay in.
For boarding out lords, you really kill their Ad Nauseam with fast Aggro starts, but I can see no other slots, other than maybe 1 Galerider.
I for my part don't like Echoing Truth against Storm at all, because it only works against Empty, a kill condition I'm naturally resilient against as I'm a swarm deck. Xanthid Swarm is annoying, but Truth just buys you a turn against it. Laying a Lord instead, making you faster might even provoke a block, if not outright kill the storm player. And with more than half of my hate being sorcery speed, Xanthid Swarm is not as backbreaking as it is for other decks.
I usually just go for a kill as fast as possible, with a Chalice @0 and Force as Backup in the early turns, and after Turn 2 I can afford leaving 1 Mana open for Flusterstorm. Vial Turn 1 allows me to lay the Chalice @1 Turn 2 while still providing a very fast clock from Turn 3 onwards, something you couldn't accomplish with a start not having Vial. Yeah, you could just lay the Chalice @0 instead, but that gives them the opportunity to Brainstorm away the Petals and LEDs, while Chalice @1 completely shuts off their cantrips. Sometimes it's just a matter of luck to find out which one's better...
Storm is a really tricky Matchup, and I really appreciate the input on that topic. It can just help everyone.
I know that I don't devote that much of my SB against Storm, but that's mainly because I went through my boarding plans and found only a few cards to board out. With the input of you all I can see what you're doing different and may be able to adapt my playstyle to a better mode. Thank you all in advance :)
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Re: [Deck/Primer] Countersliver (MeatHooks)
