[DECK] Eldrazi Stompy

To find the current (under construction) Primer please follow the links here, here and here.
Dice.


This is the thread for all discussion of the new Oath of the Gatewatch Eldrazi in a classic "Stompy" shell featuring Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Sol-Lands (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors).

The idea of this deck is to use the "Sol lands" of Legacy (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors) to power out lock pieces such as Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst, and then use additional "Sol lands" (Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin) that pay for Eldrazi creatures to power out disruptive and aggressive Eldrazi creatures printed in the Battle for Zendikar / Oath of the Gatewatch block. The basic structure of this deck features:

The Necessary Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
3-4 City of Traitors
3-4 Eye of Ugin
4 Eldrazi Temple

The Necessary Prison Element:
4 Chalice of the Void

The Necessary Eldrazi Creatures:
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Endless One


Beyond that, some lists play additional disruption in Thorn of Amethyst or Trinisphere, additional Eldrazi beyond the core 16 such as Endbringer, or Eldrazi Displacer, or Oblivion Sower or even Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger, and additional utility lands such as Cavern of Souls, or Wasteland, or Mishra's Factory, or Karakas, or some combination thereof.


As a reference point, Caleb Durward's original article: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ght-knot-seer/

He proposes the following list:


Lands
4 x Eldrazi Temple
3 x Eye of Ugin
4 x Ancient Tomb
3 x City of Traitors
4 x Wasteland
4 x Cavern of Souls
2 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 x Bojuka Bog
Creatures
4 x Thought-Knot Seer
4 x Reality Smasher
4 x Oblivion Sower
4 x Matter Reshaper

Spells
4 x Mox Diamond
4 x Chalice of the Void
3 x Trinisphere
2 x Batterskull
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
2 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Dismember


Here is a list that Gerry Thompson piloted to the finals of the Starcitygames Legacy Open in Philadelphia on 2/28/16:


Creatures (21)

4 Eldrazi Mimic
1 Endbringer
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer

Lands (25)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Spells (14)

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Dismember
1 Warping Wail

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Dismember
3 Warping Wail
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 All Is Dust




Remember, this thread is intended to consolidate discussion of Stompy Eldrazi into one place. This is not about an Eldrazi deck featuring Cabal Therapy and Deathrite Shaman, nor is it a thread about Eldrazi in a white shell with Stoneforge Mystic.

I personally believe that the excellent new Eldrazi creatures might finally make the Stompy shell with Chalice and Trinisphere a borderline Tier 1/Tier 1.5 deck if we come to a consensus on the best possible configuration. The potential of the new creatures such as Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher is simply through the roof and will provide exciting new opportunities for deckbuilders not only in Modern but Legacy as well.

I like this direction.

I have a few ideas about this deck. But three solid SB suggestions: Chains of Mephistopheles, Toxic Deluge, and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I think those will be vital cards for us going forward.

Perhaps one or two Diabolic Intent would fit nicely in this deck. They play incredibly well with Matter Reshaper and can find you exactly the card you need.

I like the idea, but doesn't like :
2 x Blight Herder: Never trigger, it's just a 4/5 vanilla too weak for me
1 x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger: Powerful in modern, but not in Legacy because too slow for me and I think Ulamog with Annihilator is better.

Anyway, you should play, at least x3, All Is Dust in order to clean the board.
This spell can be easily played (Eldrazi type) and so will return many situations in your favor.

First: Why we need 3! Threads with an Eldrazi Topic.... it isn't clear if any build will be solid enough for an "Established" Deck, which means it also got some nice results and can keep up with the meta.

Second: As it was already mentioned by Ralf at the BW Eldrazi Thread, a mono/colorless "Stompy Shell" with Chalice+Trinisphere should be look like this more or less (i changed minor slots and added a random sideboard idea)

Land (24)
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Eye of Ugin
2x Vesuva

Creature (21)
4x Eldrazi Mimic
3x Endbringer
4x Matter Reshaper
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Endless One

Rest (15)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Warping Wail
3x All Is Dust

Sideboard (15)
3x Faerie Macabre
3x Mindbreak Trap
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Ratchet Bomb
1x Karn Liberated
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Wastes

If you go this way you don't need a color, if you add a color you can't go big enough (no endbringer, all is dust etc.) and should work either on a port of the modern Bx version, or add the prison stuff like chalice&trinisphere and splash one or two colors, which lead to another playstyle (like my stoneforge midrange brew) with other benefits. The questions are: What is your playstyle and which build will be the best for the legacy tournament environment.

Hmm..

Is the Post manabase worth it? We can go super big, but we end up playing out like a bad version of 12-post or even some builds of MUD that play the post mana.

Is Endbringer okay? He (it?) seems too slow...

Endbringer is slow but I think x1 is ok cause it can do some stuff for mid/late game.
Post mana base allow us to gain life (so time) and to use Eye of ugin to "draw" in late game, I think we need to test and compare.

I appreciate Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth because it "converts" Eye of Ugin to "3 manas", so we can have 4 manas T2 this way (T1 Urborg, T2 Eye of ugin).
Moreover, x4 Cavern + some Urborg allow us to exploit black Eldrazi as one-of MD or sideboard (or some spells like dismember without pay life).

Is Mimic powerful ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Redkid43

Hmm..

Is the Post manabase worth it? We can go super big, but we end up playing out like a bad version of 12-post or even some builds of MUD that play the post mana.

Is Endbringer okay? He (it?) seems too slow...

---

Post Mana allow to go "big enough" which means play Eldrazi with 5-6 Mana fast enough and even use a few Slots for All is Dust / Planeswalker or Eldrazi Bosses like Ugin or Kozilek. The Speed should be above 12Post (besides Show&Tell) and it is the only way to avoid a MUD Shell with Manastones (or the nasty Worker). Without Post Mana you should try another build with Mox and lower Manacost.

Endbringer is ok - he and the Eye of Ugin Ability can be good enough if the game ends in a grindy battle. So far i tend to cut 1 Endbringer (2 seems enough) and add a 3rd Endless One because he is super flexible and can act as an early Eldrazi or a Finisher - and sometimes it matters if you need 5 or 6 Mana.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dihensoeur

I appreciate Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth because it "converts" Eye of Ugin to "3 manas", so we can have 4 manas T2 this way (T1 Urborg, T2 Eye of ugin).

Is Mimic powerful ?

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Yeah i think you are right. I would cut 1 Vesuva and 1 Cavern (if you stay colorless 3 should work well enough) and add 2 Urborg - but no Black at all because this needs much more sources (mox, and/or black duals etc.)

Ralf suggested Mimic in the other Thread - but yeah i like it so far. Can be played T1 with Tomb/Eye/Temple and will be a killer if you spam all the other Dudes with 4/4, 5/5 or X/X - it helps to close out games instead of ramping/durdle action.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cyborg

Current list after sitting around screwing around last night.

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@Cyborg you should post the list (that was the idea from MGB - see starting post) at the BW Eldrazi Thread. But for all the "Colorfull Eldrazi builds" please use lands like Caves of Koilos over Duals (some Duals can be still ok) if you go for a 2nd color. Lands like Caves will allow you to get the "colorless" sources and will work well enough with all the core spells from the deck. You don't want to lose games if your opponents waste the Sollands and you only have plains, swamps, urborg etc. in play - you want to be able to cast Warping Wail, Thought-Knot Seer etc all the time if you have the mana.

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I would change my colorless build here the following way:
-1 Endbringer (2 should still fine enough)
+1 Endless One (up to 3 because he tends from early pressure to a lategame bomb)
-1 Vesuva
-1 Cavern
+2 Urborg (as explained above, i think Dihensoeur should be right to add the "Swamps" legend which will also help to lower the Tomb Damage if needed)

Side:
+2nd Karn over the Ugin - Karn is faster and will allow us to kill permanents in the mirror, against MUD, 12Post etc. Ugin is simply a better all is dust, but i think with 3 All is Dust (which will be cheap as hell with all the Eldrazi Lands) at main the powerfull Sweeper is all we want.
+2 Thorn of Amethyst over Mindbreak Trap (Thorn can affect other Matchups besides Storm and will also gain advantage against Burn etc.)
+2 Tsabo's Web (maybe MGB is right here and maybe the number must be greater, but the Web against Wastelands or Lands.dec at all will be good)
-1 Revoker/ -1 Bomb (needed space but its all about how important stuff like Tsabo's Web or Graveyard Interaction finally will be, so a lot stuff to test)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

First
If you go this way you don't need a color, if you add a color you can't go big enough (no endbringer, all is dust etc.) and should work either on a port of the modern Bx version, or add the prison stuff like chalice&trinisphere and splash one or two colors, which lead to another playstyle (like my stoneforge midrange brew) with other benefits. The questions are: What is your playstyle and which build will be the best for the legacy tournament environment.

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The list I gave in the other thread has been properly proxied and tested during several nights against:

- Miracle
- Shardless
- D&T
- Canadian Thresh
- S&T
- ANT
- Reanimator

Only preboard games.

All these matches are positive G1 or 50/50 (mostly vs combo).

Displacer is unfortunately much needed. It just flat out wins games on its own.

The problem is that the deck folds to "Blood moon / loam +wasteland".

Here is a new list (untested atm) to solve the aforementioned issue.
You lose some velocity to get a better manabase.
I'm not sure we need the post manabase. Vesuva are usually copying Temple anyway...

One would have to assess whether the velocity loss is > to the loss to blood moon.deck.

Here is the list:


Lands (23)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
5 Wastes
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Vesuva
2 Eye of Ugin


Creatures (24)

2 Endless one
2 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Endbringer


Artifact (7)

4 Chalice of The Void
3 Trinisphere


Instant (4)

4 Warping Wail


Sorcery (2)

2 All is Dust


Sideboard

3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod Crypt
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Umezawa's jitte
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 All is dust
1 Kozilek, butcher of truth

Happy testing.

Edit: the side is just a rough idea.
I think we would need 2 more cards against infect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

First: Why we need 3! Threads with an Eldrazi Topic.... it isn't clear if any build will be solid enough for an "Established" Deck, which means it also got some nice results and can keep up with the meta.
.

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I am not sure if this was a question but so far the three threads are:

Eldrazi Stompy with a Color
Eldrazi Stompy without a Color
Eldrazi "Midrange" (no chalice)

As such lists with Displacer or Strangler seem to belong in the other thread, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cire

I am not sure if this was a question but so far the three threads are:

Eldrazi Stompy with a Color
Eldrazi Stompy without a Color
Eldrazi "Midrange" (no chalice)

As such lists with Displacer or Strangler seem to belong in the other thread, right?

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Devoid is a color ?

There should be only one thread I guess: Eldrazi.

We are trying to define a new archetype.
To play chalice/no chalice, blablabla are just ideas.

As long as we are playing Eldrazi + Cavern + Temple, I guess we are all about the same idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Devoid is a color ?

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Ha, fair enough - but you know what I mean. I was talking more about mana base requirements. The other thread (not my chalice less thread) Includes stomps eldrazi decks that want to produce black and/or white mama. This thread seems to have been with the intention of focusing on stomps lists that don't need to produce any colored mana. As such decks that include displacer or strangler main deck seem to belong on the other thread - otherwise this thread will just seem as a duplicate to the other thread.


Also I argue that chalice/no chalice is more than just an idea, it changes the structure of the deck and what the deck wants to do. For example in the midrange deck the reshaper is arguably more important part of the deck than it is in chalice builds

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Devoid is a color ?

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Yes in the case that it needs more than "Cavern" to get the Displacer/Strangler etc run smooth enough in a deck without Brainstorm etc. It is the same problem we can't say "2 Urborg Main and we can talk about Toxic Deluge at Side".

This is why i mentioned that i see the "colorless" list (this Thread) or list with a color and all the "upsides" (nice Sideboard techs). The big question here is; Are all the "Upsides" really needed if you just can run the (and i like the core from Ralf) colorless stompy shell because it can be fast as hell (Mimic with 4/4 and 5/5 friends) and can use All is Dust (which is the real deal here). Otherwise i still think, a White-Splash Shell with Stoneforge, Manadenial (Wastelands, Moxes, Crucible) should work also fine enough - but this should discussed in the other Thread :tongue:

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Blood Moon - only a few decks play it, sure Miracle will sometimes (more in the future) have it at Side - but i don't think we should run away from it. Ok i also have one (more for fun^^) Waste at the build here, but you can still cast Endless One and other Dudes under Moon and can react with Sideboard Cards (Bomb) or steal it with Seer, ramp fast into Karn (one of the reasons i think he should be also at Side) etc. - if Moon would be the nightmare no one should play Shardless, Lands etc. - or in the case of Eldrazi: Try a color-version of this deck, as i mentioned a build with White (and Plains and Mox etc.) will be prepared for any Moon.stuff.

I think that for lists that include chalice and trinisphere, it's very important to look all the way back to 2007 and understand what made dragon stompy such a good deck to begin with. The core strength of the deck was that all its lock pieces (chalice of the void, trinisphere, blood moon, magus of the moon) could be played turn one, because of 4 chrome mox and 4 simian spirit guide. A turn one trinisphere can't be dazed or spell pierced (only forced). Then you get two more turns to develop your board and attack uninhibited before they have enough mana to abrupt decay your trinisphere (or somthing similar). If you can't chalice turn one, they're going to play delver, top, or deathrite shaman on their first turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

Yes in the case that it needs more than "Cavern" to get the Displacer/Strangler etc run smooth enough in a deck without Brainstorm etc. It is the same problem we can't say "2 Urborg Main and we can talk about Toxic Deluge at Side".

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I was just "gently" trolling.

The first build I have proposed is viable. It has been tested (almost 100 games so far).

When I am "deck building", I always try to find the best solution to "fit" the meta.

Any land denial strategy is an issue and has to be treated as such.
As a consequence, I'm proposing a different manabase which should diminish/erase the issue.

We cannot say "we will live with THAT problem" because such & such card coming from the side can potentially overcome it.
There is some land denial strategy in a lot of decks/sideboards:
- Miracle (Blood Moon)
- Show & Tell (Blood Moon)
- Aggro loam
- Lands
Etc...

Those strategies are good to very good against MUD for example.
And I don't want to lose most of my G1 to some of these decks if I can find a proper way to fix it.

Even if the curve is somewhat lower to MUD's one with this deck, I think Wizard gives us the tool to fight back with the new colorless basic land.

There is only one question left:
Will we lose that much velocity just by electing a more stable manabase that all the previous tested MU would become negative ?

Without any further tests, I dunno.

The cloudpost manabase, itself, does not always provide velocity (you need 2 posts on the battlefield).
And with the new build you still have access to 8 sol lands (Tomb + temple) + 3 vesuva.

I'm glad some are interested in this deck so let's share further discoveries.

For the time being, I can tell I'm pretty convinced this archetype will make a "bang" on the Legacy establishment.
A small or a big one will only be a matter of how much efforts, we (as a community) push ourselves into testing and testing and testing again.

Ralf: Wastes over Wasteland?? I know you are trying to get around Blood Moon, but Wasteland is just too good not to play in this deck.

Also, I've found Eldrazi Mimic to be very subpar in testing. Occasionally it will copy something big but most of the time it is a vanilla 2/1 which is just not good enough for Legacy, even at reduced cost.

I've also found that Revoker and Sword/Jitte are too good to be kept in the sideboard. I'd play at least 3-4 revoker MD even though it's not an Eldrazi, and at least 1 SoFi / 1 Jitte md.

Any deck with this many Sol Lands and 4 Cavern of Souls needs to be playing 1 Nether Void main.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MGB

Ralf: Wastes over Wasteland?? I know you are trying to get around Blood Moon, but Wasteland is just too good not to play in this deck.

Also, I've found Eldrazi Mimic to be very subpar in testing. Occasionally it will copy something big but most of the time it is a vanilla 2/1 which is just not good enough for Legacy, even at reduced cost.

I've also found that Revoker and Sword/Jitte are too good to be kept in the sideboard. I'd play at least 3-4 revoker MD even though it's not an Eldrazi, and at least 1 SoFi / 1 Jitte md.

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@ MGB: We all know how Wasteland can be good.

The problem I have with wasteland is that, except the occasional free wins it would buy you sometimes, it has nothing else to offer to the deck's core strategy:

- We don't play cheap & very efficient threats such as Tarmo or Delver
- We need to go "big" to play our most efficient spells, which is nonbo with wasteland because you are wasting a land drop without advancing your gameplan
- We don't play "mana rocks/accel" such as other stompy deck
- We are already going over the top of tricolor decks without them (from testing)

Actually, I fear that playing wasteland pushes you too much in the stompy/MUD/stax territory and my feeling is that this strategy might work sometimes but would in a long term perspective just reveal to be more detrimental to the deck than the other way round.
I might be proven wrong, here; just my gut feeling...


@ MGB: about Mimic.

Well, I was surprised by the card. Sure it is sometimes a vanilla 2/1. But in an aggro shell with 20/24 creatures, it has to be dealt with.
From our testing, this little guy is mandatory. Your opponent cannot leave it alive because he is a true threat.

Actually he embodies the true aggro aspect of the deck. If your opponent deals with your bigger creatures, fine, he will nonetheless take a good swing from Mimic.
Mimic transforming into a 4/4, 5/5 is no joke; add a smasher into the party, you are potentially swinging for 10.

I would even say that it will help you win some races you would have never thought of.


@ Thread:

I have already said that I believe this deck to be treated / developped as a pure aggro deck.
After quite a good amount of tests, I'm pretty sure this is the right way to push this deck.

If you ask me, this deck is closer to what "Merfolk" has to offer than to any stompy/MUD list.
But unlike Merfolk, you don't need to overextend. Every creature you have is a fuc... monster itself.


The list is still raw. There is room for improvments (and I'm not denying that).
Revoker MD might be a good call but it has to be tested.
Equipments also have to be tested. We might end up putting 2 Jitte MD (like Merfolk is doing sometimes).

For now, everyone might be right, there is not only one "true" list and every idea has to be explored.

Keep testing !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gkraigher

Any deck with this many Sol Lands and 4 Cavern of Souls needs to be playing 1 Nether Void main.

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Not if the Manabase will not allow any Spell like this...you can only Play Nether Void with a real (and that not count for Cavern itself) black Splash which will need more than a pair of Urborg etc. - the idea can be good, but i don't see it in this Thread "Eldrazi Stompy" because this shell will be "colorless".

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I support Ralfs view:

I still like Wastelands, but i only see it in conjunction with Mox+Crucible which can work with Eldrazi (i still test it!) but will lead to another deck shell, which will also supports one or two color splashes. Quick Note: Wasteland+Manadenial will improve any "Mirror" (or MUD, 12Post etc.) along all the other colorfull-dual-decks, so it is still ok to talk about it in conjunction with Eldrazi. - but after all you can't have it all in one deck or you will get a very luck baesd pile of cards. Feel free to discuss the ideas in all the other Eldrazi Threads.

Mimic - Ralf is right here, it looks weak but can be a real beast if you want to close the game AND it will work with all the Eldrazi Lands (and Revoker not!). You can easily drop him Turn 1 and follow up with Endless One (which is the reason i like him too) or even better with "our Clique" at Turn 2! - both wil be 4/4 and you have enough other Creatures to follow up. Ralfs talk about Aggro and that is it - you can overrun your opponent in a rush, but only with Mimic as an early threat.

Revoker - if you find space for it, you have to cut Mimic - both plans can work, Revoker will act as a "Hatebear" but will only profit from 4 Tombs (Mimic also get 4 Temple and 2 Eye of Ugin!) for a fast Deployment - and - most of the time he isn't the best attacker because you want him to stay alive... lose speed etc. I still like Revoker at Side, because he works fine against Top, LED, Sneak Attack etc. but i don't think he is needed at main (feel free to test it!).

Equipments - i don't see it, first off without stoneforge (see my stoneforge-eldrazi-list at BW Thread) it is very random to get them and it will also need space which will result in the cutt of some creatures which will lead to less "Aggro", less tempo (Equipment is also clunky with Eldrazi-Lands!) and are open to counter (unless all the Eldrazi with Cavern backup). For TNN you still have Smasher and All is Dust (8 slots in my latest list!). As i said, All is Dust is the real deal if you build a colorless list, unless MUD you can support it with all the Eldrazi-Lands too.

The reason i like Karn as a Walkerpair at Side is that he can also kill colorless permanents, which will be super important if you face other Eldrazi, MUD-Stuff (Wurmcoil Engine will trump all your guys!), 12 Post etc. - the same is true for Sneak&Show but with this in mind i suggest you to simply try a number of Duplicants as removal. Sure it is no eldrazi but 6 mana will still be ok enough and you can also protect him with Cavern!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

The reason i like Karn as a Walkerpair at Side is that he can also kill colorless permanents, which will be super important if you face other Eldrazi, MUD-Stuff (Wurmcoil Engine will trump all your guys!), 12 Post etc. - the same is true for Sneak&Show but with this in mind i suggest you to simply try a number of Duplicants as removal. Sure it is no eldrazi but 6 mana will still be ok enough and you can also protect him with Cavern!

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Annihilator (4 with Butcher) is like "Karn" and you can make it uncounterable with cavern.

You are definitely right about MUD, Turbo Eldrazi etc... Wasteland shines here.

S&T is awkardly a positive MU G1. Displacer & Endbringer are very good at keeping huge demons @ bay.

Well everything has to be tested.

I like being disruptive much more than Ralf and so I would play something along the lines of:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Cavern of Souls
3x City of Traitors
3x Eye of Ugin
4x Wasteland
2x Sea Gate Wreckage

4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
3x Warping Wail

3x Endless One
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Matter Reshaper
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Reality Smasher
2x Endbringer

Sideboard:

1x All Is Dust
1x Cursed Totem
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tsabo's Web
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Warping Wail


This deck should be well positioned against combo decks.
I am quite unsure of what is good in a mirror or against a MUD deck outside of Equipment... maybe we should think about that too!

I have started testing this deck, and I can say that it seems very well positionned. Here is my list :
My manabase is 30 land and i think it should be the right number, I don't like mox diamond here and mishra and maze are very good here with urborg.
You have a good late game against miracle thanks to ugin. There is really no reason not to play 4 ugin even with the fact that is a legend, that's the best land of the deck.
All is dust is good at resetting stuff while you stalled with maze or creatures. Ratchet bomb is better i think that the 1C new card. It can be casted turn one and can answer stuff with higher casting cost (blood moon, TNN Entreats tokens)




4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Maze of Ith
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Endbringer

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

3 Ratchet Bomb
4 All Is Dust


SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

It's been sometime since I've drafted a deck so I may be a bit rusty here...

What I've noticed about the manabases is that we are weak to Wasteland and Blood Moon, however there are decks that coexist with them that are fully non basic, so possibly we can be as well. Urborg and Eye is too good to pass up, especially with a deck that can support 12 (!!!) Sol lands between Temple, City, and Tomb. The Post base seems enticing, but that's 8 spots to fill and I'd rather use those 8 for Eye and Urborg because it is a consistent source of 3 mana...Cloudpost maybe a touch too slow here, but the upside is that we can go huge with them. We are not a ramp control deck like 12Post is, we are aggro control with Prison effects, so consistent fast mana is better, IMO. The tempo loss from the Posts could be big.

The other problem is finding an effective moon effect. We need our lands more so that Dragon Stompy, since they can opporate under Blood Moon--Red is out. White gives us Suppression field and access to things like Displacer, but Field automatically makes Eye and Displacer bad, despite being able to crush fetches and things like Wasteland, Top, etc. iI considered blue for Arcane Laboratory and perhaps In the Eye of Chaos, but that was quickly binned.

Revoker seems like a good fit to apply an early threat and stop nonsense like Wasteland.

Straight colorless is the way to go. We have on curve creatures that are big and hard to deal with, and all of them are able to come way early thanks for 12 sols and essentially Mishra's Workshop. We can safely play Chalice at 1, perhaps more, good card generation with Matter Reshaper, and all of our threats are Cavern of Souls-able.

My first draft:
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eye of Ugin
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Though-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Oblivion Sower
1 ? (Maybe a Titan)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere

4 Warping Wail

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Redkid43

Revoker seems like a good fit to apply an early threat and stop nonsense like Wasteland.

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Revoker can only name nonland cards ;_;
That said we could always not run a full playset of urborg and run like 2 wastes or something

Oh yes...I can read cards. Make sure you do as well, kiddies...

Playing more basics to dodge Moon and Wasteland, could be awesome.

How about a anti Moon Sideboard?


[Land (24)]
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
3x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
4x Wasteland

[Instant (3)]
3x Warping Wail

[Creature (21)]
2x Endbringer
3x Endless One
4x Matter Reshaper
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer

[Artifacts(12)]
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Trinisphere

[Sideboard (15)]
1x All Is Dust
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Ratchet Bomb
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Warping Wail


As Blood Moon is one of the most problematic cards I would dedicate at least 3 slots to it and even All is Dust can be sideboarded (as a very suboptimal card).

The MUD Stax decks run 4 Ratchet Bombs maindeck to handle fast permanents, so 3 sideboard bomb should be ok.
I don't know if there are better/faster solutions to Blood Moon in the face of Painter's Servant and Pyroblasts.

On the face of it, the idea of not being able to cast colorless cards b/c there's a Bloodmoon on the field is hilarious.

Even though I like the idea of colorless mana as a "sixth color", given the history of colorless cards and generic mana, not being able to cast colorless cards on Mountains alone feels somewhat off.

I wouldn't care about Blood Moon. It isn't represented in enough decks to care about it imo. If you want to deal with blood moon, just play some Grim Monoliths or something. Replace those Mox Diamonds since Mox Diamond can't add colorless mana and you don't want to be pitching lands in a deck with expensive beaters. Also, I don't see why you would play Endless One. You can get X/X for X mana + an ability. Just design the curve of the deck properly so you don't have to play vanilla beaters

We will just have to live with it and either play something like 6 Wastes main or sideboard some or have some colorless answer to Blood Moon like Ratchet Bomb, Powder Keg, Nevinnyrral's Disk, Oblivion Stone or All is Dust.

Solemn Simulacrum provides access to 1-2 Wastes.

That seems terrible. I rather run some talisman. Easy turn 1 acceleration + All the color/colorless fixing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu

That seems terrible. I rather run some talisman. Easy turn 1 acceleration + All the color/colorless fixing.

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I mentioned Solemn Simulacrum for the fact that it affects basic lands and we're not really used to fetching up colorless basic lands yet, so its not an obvious solution. Talismans looks a lot better, especially for colored sideboard cards.

This is the other way of solving this problem:


[Land (24)]
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
3x City of Traitors
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Eye of Ugin
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
4x Wasteland
1x Wastes

[Instant (3)]
3x Warping Wail

[Creature (21)]
2x Endbringer
3x Endless One
4x Matter Reshaper
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer

[Artifact (12)]
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Trinisphere

[Sideboard (15)]
1x All Is Dust
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Talisman of Dominance
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Warping Wail


Now with 100% more Wastes ;) Use at your own risk!

This is my first draft. Very speculative since I don't know whether or not its good at all.


Lands [21]
4 Bayou
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
——————————————————

Spells [21]
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Warping Wail
5 Thoughtseize / Duress / IoK
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Roiling Spoil
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Trinisphere
——————————————————
[creature 15]
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 World Breaker
——————————————————
3 Flex slots


It has enough discard as well as lodestone/trinisphere to make combo a good matchup. It has bigger beaters than normal decks. It has access to spot removal and a few sweepers and gets to dig efficiently with stirrings.

I opt for World Breaker on the top end of the curve because it deals with problem permanents well (although not with Blood Moon in this particular build). With the amount of pressure on the hand, I think Reality Smasher really shines. It would be great if I could find place for Cavern of Souls without losing the colored spells.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bruizar

This is my first draft. Very speculative since I don't know whether or not its good at all.


Lands [21]
4 Bayou
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
——————————————————

Spells [21]
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Warping Wail
5 Thoughtseize / Duress / IoK
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Roiling Spoil
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Trinisphere
——————————————————
[creature 15]
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 World Breaker
——————————————————
3 Flex slots


It has enough discard as well as lodestone/trinisphere to make combo a good matchup. It has bigger beaters than normal decks. It has access to spot removal and a few sweepers and gets to dig efficiently with stirrings.

I opt for World Breaker on the top end of the curve because it deals with problem permanents well (although not with Blood Moon in this particular build). With the amount of pressure on the hand, I think Reality Smasher really shines. It would be great if I could find place for Cavern of Souls without losing the colored spells.

---

You have quite a few nombos in your deck:

4 Lodestone Golem + 4 Ancient Stirrings, 3 Warping Wail, 5 Thoughtseize / Duress / IoK, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Roiling Spoil, 1 Toxic Deluge, 4 Trinisphere, 4 Thought-Knot Seer, 4 Reality Smasher, 3 World Breaker
=> You hinder yourself from playing your spells / Leave out the Lodestone Golems

4 Trinisphere + 4 Ancient Stirrings, 5 Thoughtseize / Duress / IoK
=> Trinisphere is not so hot with your own 1 Mana spells / Agina you hinder yourself from casting your spells

3 Eye of Ugin + 4 Lodestone Golem, 4 Ancient Stirrings, 3 Warping Wail, 5 Thoughtseize / Duress / IoK, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Roiling Spoil, 1 Toxic Deluge, 4 Trinisphere
=> You have many spells that Eye of Ugin provides no Mana for / It may be greedy to play 3 of them if they make neither :1: nor :g: nor :b:

Same thing for 4 Ancient Tomb, 3 City of Traitors, 4 Eldrazi Temple + 4 Ancient Stirrings, 5 Thoughtseize / Duress / IoK, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Roiling Spoil, 1 Toxic Deluge
=> I think you will have some problems casting your colored spells, especially the Roiling Spoils and Abrupt Decays

I really want to give this a shot. Is there any way to make this deck and run blood moon in the main? I'm having a hard time figuring a list or. I definitely want to do a chalice build.

Blood Moon has 0 synergy with cards that need colorless mana, in fact it is one of the worst enemies of this deck (at least of you play all the Eldrazi with colorless requirements).

Just remember 3sphere and Eye do not a combo make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hofzge

You have quite a few nombos in your deck:

4 Lodestone Golem + 4 Ancient Stirrings, 3 Warping Wail, 5 Thoughtseize / Duress / IoK, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Roiling Spoil, 1 Toxic Deluge, 4 Trinisphere, 4 Thought-Knot Seer, 4 Reality Smasher, 3 World Breaker
=> You hinder yourself from playing your spells / Leave out the Lodestone Golems

4 Trinisphere + 4 Ancient Stirrings, 5 Thoughtseize / Duress / IoK
=> Trinisphere is not so hot with your own 1 Mana spells / Agina you hinder yourself from casting your spells

3 Eye of Ugin + 4 Lodestone Golem, 4 Ancient Stirrings, 3 Warping Wail, 5 Thoughtseize / Duress / IoK, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Roiling Spoil, 1 Toxic Deluge, 4 Trinisphere
=> You have many spells that Eye of Ugin provides no Mana for / It may be greedy to play 3 of them if they make neither :1: nor :g: nor :b:

Same thing for 4 Ancient Tomb, 3 City of Traitors, 4 Eldrazi Temple + 4 Ancient Stirrings, 5 Thoughtseize / Duress / IoK, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Roiling Spoil, 1 Toxic Deluge
=> I think you will have some problems casting your colored spells, especially the Roiling Spoils and Abrupt Decays

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Hah my build is pretty bad in hindsight. I really like how they designed the Eldrazis. It seems you can't just throw them into existing artifact shells. I can't believe how bad my build was :-)

Well I think you can throw them into artifact shells, but the thing you need to pay attention to is the colorless mana and the acceleration that the virtual 16 sol lands (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple) give you - all spells more or less cost 1/2 of what is printed on them.

This makes all evenly costed Eldrazis even more appealing (Eldrazi Mimic, Thought-Knot Seer, Endbringer) and make the Endless One a very special case, as he is 2/2 for each land drop (2/2, 4/4, 6/6 etc.).

The thing the Eldrazi sorely lack is interaction (except Thought-Knot Seer which is just bonkers in any regard) and thus the Stompy shell, that works well with the 8 colorless Sols lands and Mox Diamond (and doesn't work so well with Chrome Mox and colorless/devoid Eldrazi).

You can also have this interaction with black discard and the Urborg/Eye of Ugin interaction, which is the what the black Eldrazi decks are based on.