TITI Twister - Breaking "Thing In The Ice"

So folks seem hyped about this fella:

https://i.imgur.com/ceeocGA.jpg

Over here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Horror-Tribal Mr. guillemnicolau started a Tribal approach.
While I appreciate his effort going "let's squeeze him into that very archetype", I believe it's too early to limit us to a certain shell at this point in time - which is where this thread comes in, so how about a collective..
https://iwantmymtg.files.wordpress.c...brainstorm.jpg?

Let's discuss pros and cons of certain color combinations, mandatory spells, no-gos, etc. etc..
Feel free to also just unload lists with odd card choices, but make sure to justify them.

Here's my current approach:

4 TITI (core)
4 SCM (core)
4 Delver (draws removal like a pro, applies early pressure + is easily replayed when TITI-bounced)
3 YP (draws removal like a pro, neatly fits the shell, secondary wincon, TITI VS. tokens dyssynergy is outweighed by YP's power level)

4 FoW (core)
2 Daze (more free spells to boost TITI)
2 Pierce (not sure about this guy - could be Snare too)

4 BS (core)
3 Ponder (could be 4, but I'd actually rather squeeze in more burn)
4 Gitaxian Probe (core)


4 Bolt (core, when splashing red)
2 Lava Dart (TITI loves flashback spells)

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Volc
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Wasteland
(-18-)

SB (under construction)
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Vapor Snag
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bloodmoon
2 non-creature wincons --------------- (Jace / XYZ / suggestions?)
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Edit: Phyrexian Revoker & Spellskite happen to be Horrors - haha. While Spellskite's powerlevel is kinda meh, PR could actually be a SB or even MD choice.
Edit 2: How about a UB TITI+Hexmage+Marit Lage approach ^_^
Edit 3: High5s for everyone (being old enough to) getting the deck name's reference.
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DISCUSS

Why bother with this topic if the discussion could just continue on the original topic..? It can always be renamed to something more profane once the ice is broken.

If that topic hits an iceberg, we can always create another.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Why bother with this topic if the discussion could just continue on the original topic..? It can always be renamed to something more profane once the ice is broken.

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There was no intention to hijack that thread and I'm open to a merge, but as it stands, the Tribal topic discourages open discussion that goes beyond the title's shell.
Since TITI is applicable to various archetypes (I'm looking at you Miracles, Delver.dec, Marit Lage.dec, etc.) the discussion will be happening in those threads. But as I mentioned, that'd be too early at this point.

Edit: In my opinion TITI's impact can be so tremendous that a "Format & Article Discussion" thread might be in place actually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

There was no intention to hijack that thread and I'm open to a merge, but as it stands, the Tribal topic discourages open discussion that goes beyond the title's shell.
Since TITI is applicable to various archetypes (I'm looking at you Miracles, Delver.dec, Marit Lage.dec, etc.) the discussion will be happen in those threads. But as I mentioned, that'd be too early at this point.

Edit: In my opinion TITI's impact can be so tremendous that a "Format & Article Discussion" thread might be in place actually.

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So more profanity in the title it is. Time to... Let it go... and see how we can best release that Kraken! Let's build a snowman!

TITI Twister* 2.0

[*referencing our beloved spinning SDT].

4 BS
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 FoW
2 Pierce
2 Snare

4 TITI (his 0/4 body is golden here, as it holds off critters until the CB lock is in place)
3 SCM
3 Mentor

4 Top
4 CB (neatly protecting TITI from removal)

4 STP
1 Disenchant
(-42-)
-
(-18 Land-)

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I do see popular Chalice of the Void being an issue here that needs to be adressed by the MD - who knows, maybe 2 Disenchant effects are in order for the current meta..

What about going the grixis route? DRS and Cabal therapy would love to join the party.
DRS would power out the card with a free mana (for a spell pierce). Therapy is insane with YP and really cheap as a flash back cost.

Inviato dal mio LG-D605 utilizzando Tapatalk

Decks of next meta are blue heavy so being red id a must.

Imho the best choices are CounterTop Jeskai and BURG Control (G just for 2+1 Decay)

I'd go Jeskai Control with 4 Counterbalance and some flashy/bouncy creature like Venser (but also less powerful and mana efficient ones).

Think at an EOT Brainstorm into Evacuation, flip, Ethersworn Canonist with Counterspell and FoW in hand.

how do you lose from there?

Also the Grixis variant with Discards after Evacuation id he has no cards in hand Hymn to Tourach works like a Wrath of God (trigger, Evacuation and discard all in one card for BB)

the application of TITI are embarassing many.

I buy my playset before it goes to 100$

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

Also the Grixis variant with Discards after Evacuation id he has no cards in hand Hymn to Tourach works like a Wrath of God (trigger, Evacuation and discard all in one card for BB)

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Damn why haven't I considered this aspect before?
Also Cabal Therapy (which already has a sweet synergie due to its two-in-one-spell bonus) works like a charm, when you know what creatures to name..
:cool:
The biggest flaw of discard always was its bad mid-/late-game impact. Now "Evacuate on a stick" kills that downside!

Not necessarily convinced TITI is worth the effort, but you might wan't to consider Myth Realized. Thrives on velocity like TITI, and is Immune to TITI bounce. Also fits better in the curve than Young Pyromancer.

I think going with balanced TITI is not where you wanna because you have to set your cmcs in such a way.

I think first we need a training bra to hold our TITIs in place and then build off that foundation. DRS seems like an auto include to get those TITIs defrosted.

in modern meta 3cc on top is not so inportant anymore.

all the decks you want to have Balance, you want to have 0/1/2 on top (Storm, Grixis, RUG, BUG, Izzet).

Show and Tell is not so common unless against Cloudpost and Reanimator (for whose matchups you don't prepare or you prepare differently)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ozimek

Not necessarily convinced TITI is worth the effort, but you might wan't to consider Myth Realized. Thrives on velocity like TITI, and is Immune to TITI bounce. Also fits better in the curve than Young Pyromancer.

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tbh. I have never tested MR, but I do like the synergy you point out. What is more: once TITI clears the way, MR can go for the one-punch KO without having to clear pesky chumpers - clearly MR's common bane.

Myth Realized is a bad card you go there with

Price of Progress against Eldrazi.
Sulfur Elemental against Miracle
PoP, Blasts, Bolts against the rest of the format.

you close with TITI.

I will play a UR with little splash for G or W for enchantment removals or B for more hand control. At that point you just can't let a CB resolve so.. if I go Grixis I play 4 Stifle and 4 Wasteland with 4 DRS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

Myth Realized is a bad card you go there with

Price of Progress against Eldrazi.
Sulfur Elemental against Miracle
PoP, Blasts, Bolts against the rest of the format.

you close with TITI.

I will play a UR with little splash for G or W for enchantment removals or B for more hand control. At that point you just can't let a CB resolve so.. if I go Grixis I play 4 Stifle and 4 Wasteland with 4 DRS

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So basically shove it in delver? WOAH, #innovative

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

So basically shove it in delver? WOAH, #innovative

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no Delver

Sultai or Grixis Control.

I would play Delver only as a bait for hate in Izzet version

List for fun (from the other thread):

Building off Quiet Speculation: We could include the following combo with Spellweaver Helix + QS into 2 Cabal therapy/Lava dart + Army of the Damned. YP also works well with Cabal Therapy - and YP into turn 3 - QS for 3 cabal therapy seems brutal

4 TITI
4 YP

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 FoW
4 Spellweaver Helix
4 Quiet Speculation
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lava Dart
2 Army of the Damned

18 Lands.

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List with actual thought behind it.

I like the idea of this card in a Blade Control deck - as a replacement for removal spells since it functions as creature control.

Here is a rough list of TITI JITI

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 TITI

4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Gitaxian Probe

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

Let's discuss pros and cons of certain color combinations, mandatory spells, no-gos, etc. etc..
DISCUSS

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I would update your OP to include more possible splash options. You pretty much only talk about red in the OP. However, red isn't neccesarily the strongest option for a splash, and you could splash virtually any color you want and it wouldn't be incorrect imo. Every color has something to offer. Mandatory spells for each color you could opt to splash are imo...

Black
Dark Confidant or Tasigur/Gurmag Angler/Tombstalker
Baleful Strix
Inquisition of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
Hymn to Tourach
Reanimate
Liliana
Possibly Dismember
Possibly Dark Depths + Thespians Stage\Vesuva + Vampire Hexmage

Green
Tarmogoyf
Scavenging Ooze or Courser of Kruphix
Living Wish + Crop Rotation + Standstill + Dark Depths + Thespians Stage\Vesuva + Intuition + Crucible of Worlds + Mishras Factory + Wasteland + either Chalice of the Void or Expedition Map

Black+Green
Deathrite Shaman
Abrupt Decay
Maelstrom Pulse

White
StP
Stoneforge Mystic

White+Black
Lingering Souls

Red
Lightning Bolt etc
Young Pyromancer
Possibly Grim Lavamancer
Possibly REB/Pyroblast
SB: Blood Moon

Monoblue (Yes I think going monoblue tempo might actually be feasible now thanks to this card).
Delver of Secrets
Snapcaster Mage
Standstill + Dark Depths + Thespians Stage\Vesuva + Intuition + Crucible of Worlds + Mishras Factory + Wasteland
Stifle + Daze + Wasteland + either Chalice of the Void or Expedition Map
Spell Pierce
Gitaxian Probe
Counterspell
Jace
Possibly Intuition/Thirst/FoF/Deep Analysis
Possibly Spell Snare
Possibly Phyrexian Revoker
Possibly Phyrexian Dreadnought + Trickbind + Standstill
Brainstorm
Ponder
FoW
Misdirection
SB: Back to Basics

Feel free to edit the above list into the OP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

Flipping this thing on their EOT with an Intuition, then grabbing 1 Lingering Souls & 2 Cabal Therapy, then going to your turn and getting the two cards that were bounced out of their hand (at least) seems pretty awesome.

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That sounds like a beautiful play :)

I'm a little bit unsure if this card really belongs in tempo... for comparison, juxtapose it with Mongoose or Delver which have evasion and are gonna' be "flipped" several turns before it, I think this is a very crucial thing.

A closer comparison to me would be something more like a Psychatog deck, buth work in a similar fashion where you're feeding it with instants/sorceries early on then you just off on them, the benefit of TITI of being less screwed by gy removal. However, I really think maybe exploring a more midrange approach with like Intuition and Deep Analysis and Counterspell isn't a bad idea. Also, I liked the idea someone said about Hymn to Tourach and Cabal Therapy, after you unheaval the board when you flip, that seems like possibly the strongest aspect of making a deck like this. But again, I see TITI more like a Tombstalker or Psychatog, heck maybe even add Tombstalker since it can feed off the instants/sorceries as well for free.

it doesn't rely on graveyard, has better S/T and better evasion then Tarmogoyf and Tombastalker.

it's just slower. You have to rely on something else for the first turns.

Delver/DRS/Burns/Goblin Guide/whatever

that's a win condition that only requires you to play Magic in order to reward you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass

I'm a little bit unsure if this card really belongs in tempo... for comparison, juxtapose it with Mongoose or Delver which have evasion and are gonna' be "flipped" several turns before it, I think this is a very crucial thing.

A closer comparison to me would be something more like a Psychatog deck, buth work in a similar fashion where you're feeding it with instants/sorceries early on then you just off on them, the benefit of TITI of being less screwed by gy removal. However, I really think maybe exploring a more midrange approach with like Intuition and Deep Analysis and Counterspell isn't a bad idea. Also, I liked the idea someone said about Hymn to Tourach and Cabal Therapy, after you unheaval the board when you flip, that seems like possibly the strongest aspect of making a deck like this. But again, I see TITI more like a Tombstalker or Psychatog, heck maybe even add Tombstalker since it can feed off the instants/sorceries as well for free.

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Flipping this thing on their EOT with an Intuition, then grabbing 1 Lingering Souls & 2 Cabal Therapy, then going to your turn and getting the two cards that were bounced out of their hand (at least) seems pretty awesome.

I understand, I just don't see the need to put them on a clock if you're gonna' bounce their shit anyways and win inevitably after that for as long as you can protect it. Just seems that not rushing it and adding things like Intuition/Thirst/FoF (instants) to sneak in CA is a smart thing so you don't run outta' gas.

The biggest threat to this deck I see is Abrupt Decay, pretty much any deck that can fit it is gonna' do it if ever this deck becomes a thing. Obviously "dies to removal" is a horrible case, but the difference is that creatures like Tombstalker/Goyf require less "setup" imo, while you can say more vulnerable to gy, those cards you can topdeck and play on turn 6 if you have to and still get value. That's a weak point for TITI, the value goes down considerably the later on you topdeck. In the perfect world lets say you always drop in turn 2-3 and you can always protect it, but that's now it usually plays out irl.

Black or Black+Green seem to be the strongest colors to splash since this seems ideal in a more grindier slower/controllish deck than traditional delver decks, and discard is amazing with the bounce effect. Black adds so much to the deck

Black
Dark Confidant or possibly Tasigur/Gurmag Angler/Tombstalker
Baleful Strix
Inquisition of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
Hymn to Tourach
Reanimate
Liliana

Black+Green
Deathrite Shaman
Tarmogoyf
Abrupt Decay
Maelstrom Pulse

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass

The biggest threat to this deck I see is Abrupt Decay, pretty much any deck that can fit it is gonna' do it if ever this deck becomes a thing. Obviously "dies to removal" is a horrible case, but the difference is that creatures like Tombstalker/Goyf require less "setup" imo, while you can say more vulnerable to gy, those cards you can topdeck and play on turn 6 if you have to and still get value. That's a weak point for TITI, the value goes down considerably the later on you topdeck. In the perfect world lets say you always drop in turn 2-3 and you can always protect it, but that's now it usually plays out irl.

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I would want to run some number of Misdirection just for Abrupt Decay. Opp plays a threat (say, Goyf) and thinks they are safe thanks to an Abrupt Decay in hand, and you can Misdirect to really punish them for it.

if you really want to be a bitch you can always play Unearth to get back TITI, Delver, DRS, Clique, Snapcaster or to cycle it in case it gets lost.

It also triggers TITI

Should we prefer the control route, Massacre is still very very viable, but I would aggro with 4 Stifle and Daze/Pierce

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass

the difference is that creatures like Tombstalker/Goyf require less "setup"

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@Tombstalker: Disagree. xBB (VS. 1U) is not merely a setup aspect, but a burden & having 6 cards in your gy is no given in a world full of DRS.
@Goyf: I see where people come from when comparing those two creatures, but the fact that Goyf is a dumb beater with a tree in its mana cost, while TITI is a f***ing one-sided Evacuate on a (7/8) stick AND blue, makes him a completely different beast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass

That's a weak point for TITI, the value goes down considerably the later on you topdeck.

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Despite the fact that I do prefer to have my TITI online by turn 4, you seem to be forgetting that chaining cantrips + SCM shenanigans becomes considerably easier the farther we are into a game aka. the more mana sources we have at hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

if you really want to be a bitch you can always play Unearth to get back TITI, Delver, DRS, Clique, Snapcaster or to cycle it in case it gets lost.

It also triggers TITI

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With all the discard effects black gives you access to, I would prefer Reanimate to Unearth just for the ability to steal your opponents threats and hate on Reanimator decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

if you really want to be a bitch you can always play Unearth to get back TITI, Delver, DRS, Clique, Snapcaster or to cycle it in case it gets lost.

It also triggers TITI

Should we prefer the control route, Massacre is still very very viable, but I would aggro with 4 Stifle and Daze/Pierce

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I'm not sure if Unearth or Reanimate are good ideas, simply 'cause the one stregth TITI would have is avoiding gy hate from DRS, but bringing those cards in your immediately opening yourself up to it again. Yeah, I'd use that as a strength as much as you can, the fewer drawbacks the stronger the deck game 2-3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by square_two

I would want to run some number of Misdirection just for Abrupt Decay. Opp plays a threat (say, Goyf) and thinks they are safe thanks to an Abrupt Decay in hand, and you can Misdirect to really punish them for it.

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That's probably a good idea with Misdirection, I like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

@Tombstalker: Disagree. xBB (VS. 1U) is not merely a setup aspect, but a burden & having 6 cards in your gy is no given in a world full of DRS.
@Goyf: I see where people come from when comparing those two creatures, but the fact that Goyf is a dumb beater with a tree in its mana cost, while TITI is a f***ing one-sided Evacuate on a (7/8) stick AND blue, makes him a completely different beast.


Despite the fact that I do prefer to have my TITI online by turn 4, you seem to be forgetting that chaining cantrips + SCM shenanigans becomes considerably easier the farther we are into a game aka. the more mana sources we have at hand.

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Fair enough, I see where your coming from. I mean, this is all just speculation at this point... maybe you're overestimating the card, maybe I'm underestimating it. There's a card that only costs :1::r: that's also a deal breaker for opponent and requires a setup, it's called Goblin Bomb. Now I'm not saying TITI is anywhere near that horrible, sometimes something looks too good to be true but then after playing a few tourneys you find out it actually is. I think a better comparison is Bloodchief Ascension, I'd made a B/R deck around in quite a while back when it came out, had bolts and discards and tried it in a couple tourneys... the games I activated it I absolutely wrecked the opponents, however the other 3/4 of the games didn't go so well lol... I dunno

if you are in a weak situation with graveyard, Unearth will cycle

Played incorrectly (i.e. by itself, as the card reads), this card is [probably] a 3 turns-long summoning sick goyf which has a turn of unblockability and a 7/8 non-trampling body. If this is your wincon, it's kind of inferior to a goyf and even less likely to get 1 or more hits in (jace-1, pyroblast, flickerwisp, etc...).

The real question is what creature/s are you resolving that you want to protect with your own on-board Evacuation effect that swings for 7 if they try to disrupt your intended threats? Is it suicide ETB triggers (dreadnought, evoke critters, echo)? Is it to re-up positive ETB triggers? Is it insurance that lets you play into cards like terminus or supreme verdict?

Don't look too intently at the 7/8, pay more attention to splicing Evacuation onto Brainstorm [or any other instant, moreso than a sorcery] for no extra mana - this is where the real breaking of the card would come from.

As far as an abrupt decay deck facing TITI is concerned, it's more of a Flagbearer than a Horror creature type - one that eats all your decays.

I'm thinking about trying TITI in something like Mono U Omnitell: sculp your hand, while threatening the board, and assembling your combo. Not sure if it's MB-material or SB-material.

What do we consider the top decks going forward?

I would think: Shardless, Lands, Eldrazi, Miracles.

What would TITI's role be in any of those match ups? I would think it will have to be Aggro against Shardless, Tempo against Lands, Control against Eldrazi and Aggro against Miracles.

What would be the deckbuilding constraints of each of the decks? Our 1 mana cantrips and discard spells will be destroyed by COTV against Eldrazi and Countertop will be brutal regardless against Miracles.

How do we shore up or play to our role against those decks given a "Core" of

4 TITI
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will

Against Lands: Perhaps Wasteland and Stiffle?
Against Eldrazi: some sort of removal against COTV: Abrupt Decay? And wasteland against the manabase?
Against Miracles: Abrupt Decay again seems good to deal with countertop. Don't know what else.
Against Shardless: Like with the Miracles issue we need more Aggro Cards. . .

So including Wasteland and Abrupt Decay which were the overlaps from above we have a BUG deck:


4 TITI
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Wasteland
20 Other lands

That leaves 12 cards. Those 12 cards should probably be super aggressive if we hope to win against Shardless and Miracles IMO. I am just stuck on what those cards could be.

Maybe Goyf/DRS/[mystery card]
Go 4 colors for Red for Delver/Burn?

What about Snapcaster Mage then? It just seems really good before or after you flip and "evacuation" kinda like what Fox was saying about ETB triggers. Couldn't you do some crazy stuff like flash it into play, counter a spell, flip then bounce it back to your hand?

@Cire - Why would you want to play 24 lands when you also run 12 cantrips? You can get away with 18-20, like RUG Delver.

I think Snapcasters are a must. So much synergy with TITI, and they're just good in general. I also think a 3/1 Daze/Misdirection split could be interesting, perhaps with another Misdirection in the board to fight Abrupt Decay. 1-2 Spellskite in the board could also come in against Decay and do some work; plus, they're horrors. Finally, I think Vendillion Clique is another must in this deck; like SCM, it rocks with TITI and is strong on its own.

I regard the core as:

3-4 TITI
3-4 Snapcaster
1-2 Clique
1-2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3-4 Daze
0-1 Misdirection

Jace seems like a must. It also dodges TITI and... it's Jace.

After that core, I'm not sure exactly where to go. I'm against Counterbalance / Top since it doesn't help flip TITI and makes us into a worse version of Miracles. Stifle, Waste and Bolt could be interesting, turning this deck into a more reactive version of RUG Delver. Alternatively, DRS, Cabal Therapy, and Abrupt Decay could give us more game against combo and just make us grindier in general. Finally, Stoneforge Mystic has strong synergy with TITI and Swords to Plowshares, Jitte and Batterskull have never been bad. It would also be possible to splash more than one color — in short, there are a lot of directions to go with this.

I'm against Young Pyromancer, Delver, and Monastery Mentor because they have anti-synergy with TITI. Play a different deck if you want to play them, I think. We have enough strong options between SCM, Clique, SFM and DRS. We could even play Dark Confidant and Goyf if we felt like it. (But I don't.) Baleful Strix is also a strong option if we splash black.

Also, Phyrexian Revokers out of the board seem good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LMental

@Cire - Why would you want to play 24 lands when you also run 12 cantrips? You can get away with 18-20

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I was thinking something along the lines that wasteland's will definitely be saced and the cantrip will be shut off with all the COTV's flying around.

Either way - sure - I think I can run less lands. However i'm still having trouble figuring out what those 12-16 cards should be. I'm off the opinion that they should allow you to play aggro - but I am also having trouble figuring out what that means. Does that mean goyf? Delver? etc. . . I like SFM originally, but I feel that it is too controlling and that against the decks I foresee us playing against, I feel that we won't usually be control.

This deck has a good matchup with Lands, Storm and average meta.

Horrible matchup with Miracle.

Our fattie dies to Blast, Swords and like whatevever else they are casting like chump monk blockers ecc
Our only serious chamce is to play a Cbalance soon

If you really want to justify the horrible name you have chosen for this deck, then at least marry it up to an actual Twister or two...

TITI Twister, a.k.a. Steaming Pile of Crap.dec

Win Cons (10)
4 Thing in the Ice (TITI)
3 Storm Entity (Twister)
3 Monestary Mentor

Twister (16)
4 Day's Undoing (Twsiter!)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

Force of Will (4)
4 Force of Will

Mana (12)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

Lands (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Volcanic island
2 Gemstone Caverns

Turn 1, barf out a Mentor or Thing, turn 2 and thereafter, cast all the cards. End with Days Undoing and do it again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cire

I was thinking something along the lines that wasteland's will definitely be saced and the cantrip will be shut off with all the COTV's flying around.

Either way - sure - I think I can run less lands. However i'm still having trouble figuring out what those 12-16 cards should be. I'm off the opinion that they should allow you to play aggro - but I am also having trouble figuring out what that means. Does that mean goyf? Delver? etc. . . I like SFM originally, but I feel that it is too controlling and that against the decks I foresee us playing against, I feel that we won't usually be control.

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I don't think we need to play aggro. I see two directions that we can go with this deck.

1) Tempo. Stifle & Bolt. Yes, we'd be less aggro than Canadian Thresh, but we'd have a more powerful, game ending threat, and flashing back Stifle with SCM would feel amazing. Plus, we could only be 2 colors, allowing for a stable manabase. I like this version a lot; it reminds me of UR Landstill, but stronger. The list I'd play is:

4 TITI
4 SCM
2 Clique

2 Jace
4 FoW
4 Daze
1 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Gut Shot/Mutagenic Growth

4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

SB
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spellskite
1 Misdirection
2 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Shattering Spree

Something like that looks strong, if a bit threat-light, to me.


2) (Death)Blade. This version would be slower but very powerful too; I'm just not sure it takes best advantage of TITI. However, I'd start with something like:

3-4 TITI
3-4 SCM
3-4 SFM
1-2 Vendillion Clique
0-4 Deathrite Shaman

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
0-1 SoFaI

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3-4 Gitaxian Probe
4 StP
0-4 Cabal Therapy
0-2 Thoughtseize
0-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3-4 Ponder
1-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
0-1 Vindicate / Council's Judgement

I just wonder what advantages this gives you over traditional Deathblade or normal Blade. It's not like TITI is great with equipments. It just provides another angle - but not a particularly synergistic one.

Re: counterbalance. I understand the need to protect TITI, especially against Miracles. But I don't think Counterbalance is the way to do it. It has no synergy with TITI, makes us a strictly worse Miracles, and still doesn't solve the Abrupt Decay problem. Rather, we should diversify our threats or play a tempo game so that we can attack from a different angle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LMental

@Cire - Why would you want to play 24 lands when you also run 12 cantrips? You can get away with 18-20, like RUG Delver.

I think Snapcasters are a must. So much synergy with TITI, and they're just good in general. I also think a 3/1 Daze/Misdirection split could be interesting, perhaps with another Misdirection in the board to fight Abrupt Decay. 1-2 Spellskite in the board could also come in against Decay and do some work; plus, they're horrors. Finally, I think Vendillion Clique is another must in this deck; like SCM, it rocks with TITI and is strong on its own.

I regard the core as:

3-4 TITI
3-4 Snapcaster
1-2 Clique
1-2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3-4 Daze
0-1 Misdirection

Jace seems like a must. It also dodges TITI and... it's Jace.

After that core, I'm not sure exactly where to go. I'm against Counterbalance / Top since it doesn't help flip TITI and makes us into a worse version of Miracles. Stifle, Waste and Bolt could be interesting, turning this deck into a more reactive version of RUG Delver. Alternatively, DRS, Cabal Therapy, and Abrupt Decay could give us more game against combo and just make us grindier in general. Finally, Stoneforge Mystic has strong synergy with TITI and Swords to Plowshares, Jitte and Batterskull have never been bad. It would also be possible to splash more than one color — in short, there are a lot of directions to go with this.

I'm against Young Pyromancer, Delver, and Monastery Mentor because they have anti-synergy with TITI. Play a different deck if you want to play them, I think. We have enough strong options between SCM, Clique, SFM and DRS. We could even play Dark Confidant and Goyf if we felt like it. (But I don't.) Baleful Strix is also a strong option if we splash black.

Also, Phyrexian Revokers out of the board seem good.

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I really like the direction you're going with the list you posted so far, and I really like the white splash idea with Stoneforge Mystic, StP, equipment, too.

What do you think about adding 1x Lightning Greeves then? I feel like it's one of those often overlooked cards, but it seems pretty amazing in this kind of deck, I mean if they can't kill it you're pretty much gonna' go Inkwell Leviathin on their ass. I mean, I'm a big fan of the swords but sometimes less is more ya know.

I also have a rules question, so if TITI becomes flipped does it unequip?

@Mystical_Jackass - Thanks, I'm glad you like it.

Regarding Greaves, I do find it interesting, especially if we play SFM - probably in the board, though, to combat removal, and as a 1-of (and I still think it's strictly inferior to Skite). But it would stay attached when TITI flips, I'm pretty sure.

Still, the reason I regard Skite as superior is because Skite is also a blocker, can hold equipment, and is amazing in certain MUs. Greaves will sometimes just do nothing. (Often, actually.)

Why do you prefer the white splash to the red? Because it has more diverse threats? I'm not opposed to such a splash, and I don't think you're wrong to prefer it, but I also see a lot to like in a version with Stifle, Wasteland and more blue. For one, it'll be more streamlined and focused around TITI. To me, both are worth testing.

EDIT: Ah, read wrong. You like both lists. So we're agreed ;)

EDIT: Sorry, I also got your name wrong! I apparently suck at reading.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LMental

I don't think we need to play aggro. I see two directions that we can go with this deck.

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I don't mean aggro as in Zoo, but aggro in terms of deck role in particular matchups. Just by the core cards we run we have a good game against Lands and Eldrazi (IMO - draw, counters, wasteland, big threat). Against Shardless and Miracles though I think we have a bad game. What's more - in those games we will not be control and Shardless does tempo better, and tempe doesn't seem good against miracles. So the solution seems to be to get more aggressive to shore up those matchups.