[Podcast] The Brainstorm Show episode 17: Lots of stuff and ShardStill

Hey guys,
In episode 17 we discuss a variety of topics including a spicy ShardStill deck we've been piloting online. Hope you enjoy.http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/pod...ew-shardstill/

Having a listen to this at the moment and enjoying the complaining about Chalice not being fun. Well, not everyone enjoys watching their opponents masterbate with Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain. Welcome to the street, enjoy the cage fight. It's been a long time coming.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Having a listen to this at the moment and enjoying the complaining about Chalice not being fun. Well, not everyone enjoys watching their opponents masterbate with Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain. Welcome to the street, enjoy the cage fight. It's been a long time coming.

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I like how you put it, Dice. In fact, I made it my signature :laugh:

Yeah Phil loves masturbating (with cantrips). Hopefully we provide a balanced perspective on Legacy though. I loved playing with the Eldrazi deck.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Yeah Phil loves masturbating (with cantrips). Hopefully we provide a balanced perspective on Legacy though. I loved playing with the Eldrazi deck.

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Oh I am right there with you. It feels like a true Legacy parallel to Vintage Shops. Pushing much the same plan and holding many of the same weaknesses. This is why I do not think that it's as big an issue as people make it out to be. Because an underpowered Shops deck in Legacy is just as beatable as a powered one is in Vintage.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Oh I am right there with you. It feels like a true Legacy parallel to Vintage Shops. Pushing much the same plan and holding many of the same weaknesses. This is why I do not think that it's as big an issue as people make it out to be. Because an underpowered Shops deck in Legacy is just as beatable as a powered one is in Vintage.

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Oh for sure. I personally feel that Eldrazi is one of the best things to happen to Legacy in years. It is very beatable but requires people to make some adjustments and consider playing decks other than 50 cantrips plus a few 1-2 mana threats or Top-do-nothing-durdle.

Great with another episode. Following you on twitter as per your orders, oh my masters!

I have to say that I land on the same side as Phil does in regards to chalice decks. You (Dice) might say that cantripping is masturbatory but the cantrip decks (if we are just to lump all decks with ponder and brainstorm together) usually cast cantrips to find spells to cast that generate interaction. Brainstorm to find a removal spell for a creature or a counterspell for a combo card etc. The stompy decks (sol land decks in Legacy and Workshops in Vintage I guess) seem like the very definition of masturbatory... playing by yourself. They do inherently not wish to interact, they don't want their opponents to be able to play the game at all. They hope to land one early lock piece that turns off all the relevant spells the other player is playing.

In Legacy these decks have traditionally been wrought with inconsistency but the power level of the new Eldrazi creatures and their very streamlined curve make up for these inconsistencies. Where before if their turn one lock piece got forced, MUD's hand might just fall apart. Or they might just mulligan into oblivion to find it. Now, if their lock piece is countered, their turn 2 TKS, turn 3 Smasher often be good enough to grind out a win vs many decks.

But that is less of an issue. Like the thing is, if 15% of a tournament was playing MUD I would hate that too. It's all about, like Phil said, having agency over your own chances to win.

In a way, Chalice and Blood Moon feels much like Show and Tell does to me. There are few things I hate more than when I sit down in front of someone who just shrugs their shoulders and goes turn 1 petal, ancient tomb show and tell and I don't have the force of will (or isn't playing a deck with force). It requires NOTHING from them in terms of brainpower, strategic nous or the like. It's the same with chalice and blood moon: /shrug /yolo, play it out, do you have the force? No? Then I guess the game is over. I know there are turn 1 kills in Legacy and that's fine. They won't run rampant as long as force is a thing. Also, losing turn 1 to decks like storm and dredge at least leaves you with impression that they had to use some sort of brain capacity beyond "duuuuh, me cast dis spell, yoo answer? No? Me win".

It is therefor an issue for me when a MUD-style deck becomes tier 1 and is this widely played. It increases the amount of non-games that doesn't require any effort from my opponent, sadly. It's not the end of the world, of course, but to call it [one of] the best thing[s] to happen to Legacy in years just seems quite contrary to how I view it.

But you have agency. You have the whole card pool to pick from and to build with. If you play a deck that dies to a single card, you made a choice to play that deck. You made a choice, you gave yourself that weakness. As a Lands player I do not fear Eldrazi at all, I fear Storm. Should I be really unhappy when I get paired against Storm and claim I have no agency in that match because I choose to play a deck that was bad against it? Should I spend 30 minutes going off about how horrible it is that Storm shits all over me and I have to devote 6 cards in my sideboard for it? Do I get to say that Storm is a blight that I hate or is that not aloud because the deck has been around forever and accepted so that is not something that is acceptable for me to say?

If you are going to play a deck that gets shit on by another deck then you take the risks. This is Legacy, the deck you play with it a choice and nothing is without flaw. You have options, you have information, you have other players who will test with you be it in real life or on Skype/MWS. You do not as a Shardless player get the right to bitch if Painter shits on you. Guess what, that was a choice you made when you picked up your deck. You build a deck with no Basics, you run that risk. By the same tone if your going to build a deck and fill it with 1 drops, be those that filter or those that tap and make mana, you risk that someone will drop a Chalice on you and give you a bad day. Just like Shardless does when Painter shows up in the room. It is a choice you make.

The games you have against something like Dragon stompy comes with the tide of playing in this format, but to tell me you do not have agency over the games that happen is total bull shit. The most you have is before you write your decklist. Just because you lose to a card does not mean that the game was out of your hands. You know I die to Bloodmoon, I also run 4 Grips. That to me is my choices and chances. My "Agency".

Hey that's how you look at it. Having agency in deck building / deck choice. And I'll concede that I enjoy playing Storm and other blue decks and as such I can just shut up or pack up and rethink what I should be playing (I also play stuff that's good against Eldrazi, so it's not the end of the world for me). But even considering this, can you not agree that it is quite feel bad to lose to your opponent doing nothing harder than picking his/her nose? I mean, maybe it's just me but I often seem to encounter inexperienced players, that seem quite bad at playing, choosing the stompy type decks or, alternatively, reanimator or sneak and show. I just can't stand the "yolo" factor.

You don't have a good game one with Lands vs Storm? But I bet a really inexperienced storm player will be an easier opponent that an experienced one... The margin for error is slimmer. But even the most inexperienced, brain-dead MUD/Eldrazi player can look at his/her opening hand, identify the chalice and the ancient tomb and just jam.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Oh for sure. I personally feel that Eldrazi is one of the best things to happen to Legacy in years. It is very beatable but requires people to make some adjustments and consider playing decks other than 50 cantrips plus a few 1-2 mana threats or Top-do-nothing-durdle.

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I was also about to write something like Nevishute above me... funny how the "suit" guys line up there =D ... I'd like take a different angle on it, I'm fine with CotV, I've also spent my fair share of time casting it (in a rather rogue Brown Stax fashion, was my first deck back in 2009/10), I'm fine losing to it time to time... I also like how all extremes are possible and playble next to each other... most importantly because these decks are self-regulating by their nature - the mix of inconsistency and shallow game experience (MUD, hate decks in general), glass-cannon nature (Becher, SI and alike) or mental tax (DD, old Lands) with the fact it usualy takes a specific attitude to play and enjoy playing these decks over and over which is different toa typical Mtg player... any of these played massively makes the gameplay XP worse... in first and second case also very stupid... MUD generaly has a stigma of n00bish, stupid (by gameplay) and budget deck (not anymore)... next leveling it up in consistency and also availability is something that I view as dangerous in general...

While I can see that many people awaited a chance to brew (which is there all the time btw., but still the largest mass of players are obedient netdeck sheep) or some like shake ups like in other formats - I'm definitely not one of them... For me Legacy is about stability, stack interaction, knowledge of the decks, understanding the rules and close decisions based on that... I can't see how introduction of Eldrazi.dec makes Legacy better in any aspect (my deck choice doesn't matter on this)...

Cards have changed - play on, that's fair but there also is a point which when passed I play a game I don't want to play...

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I fear Storm. Should I be really unhappy when I get paired against Storm and claim I have no agency in that match because I choose to play a deck that was bad against it? Should I spend 30 minutes going off about how horrible it is that Storm shits all over me and I have to devote 6 cards in my sideboard for it? Do I get to say that Storm is a blight that I hate or is that not aloud because the deck has been around forever and accepted so that is not something that is acceptable for me to say?

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not relevant to this discussion but I don't think this is true...

@nevilshute: Thanks for listening, man! I completely understand the feeling, but for the most part I identify with Dice_Box on this issue because I view the deckbuilding process as a significant aspect of the game that gives you agency. Phil and I essentially have the same differing perspectives as you guys, and in Phil's case it makes sense to me because I spend a significant amount of time trying to tune and metagame lists, whereas Phil is much more focused on jamming games with the lists and analyzing all of the in-game decisions. This is also part of the reason I think Phil is a good teammate because we bring different strengths to the table which is very cool. Glad people listening to our podcast identify with our different perspectives; I am hoping that means it was an interesting discussion for the listeners.

EDIT @sloth: I posted before I saw your response, but I can certainly appreciate what you are saying, and I think your thoughts are spot-on with Phil's. Glad you guys are agreeing with him because a couple folks in the reddit thread sort of slammed him, and I was giving him a hard time when we were playing last night haha.

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

Hey that's how you look at it. Having agency in deck building / deck choice. And I'll concede that I enjoy playing Storm and other blue decks and as such I can just shut up or pack up and rethink what I should be playing (I also play stuff that's good against Eldrazi, so it's not the end of the world for me). But even considering this, can you not agree that it is quite feel bad to lose to your opponent doing nothing harder than picking his/her nose? I mean, maybe it's just me but I often seem to encounter inexperienced players, that seem quite bad at playing, choosing the stompy type decks or, alternatively, reanimator or sneak and show. I just can't stand the "yolo" factor.

You don't have a good game one with Lands vs Storm? But I bet a really inexperienced storm player will be an easier opponent that an experienced one... The margin for error is slimmer. But even the most inexperienced, brain-dead MUD/Eldrazi player can look at his/her opening hand, identify the chalice and the ancient tomb and just jam.

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The real role of experience comes in when everything goes tits up. I have had this thrown at me time and time again in Vintage everything you just said. I am a Shops player so being told my choice is boring, bothersome, easy to play, noobish, simple, the deck plays itself... I am use to that. I will also say that easy lines are easy, but the skill is what you do when those easy lines are not available. When do you Mull is a skill in Shops that will get you to the top tables or knock you out round 3. What to side also. Just because I do not hold up Brainstorm and Force does not mean that the deck does not take skill. Its just not the same skill that playing Underground Sea calls for.

Still, I will admit I am glad Legacy players are now throwing the same comments around Vintage players do. Warms my cold, cold heart a little. Not enough I will not Chalice on turn one if I can, but a little warmer.

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

not relevant to this discussion but I don't think this is true...

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Why is it not? Why can I as a Lands player not bitch about Storm or Bloodmoon? Its the same thing only on a diffrent wavelength. Why is it that someone can go on a rant about a deck/card that causes them issues but if I was to do the same about a commonly played and accepted deck I would get told to pull my head in and stop being a fool? Why is it fine some someone to bitch when it is Brainstorm that is getting locked out but it is not acceptable for a Lands player to bitch about Moon? I mean I am not bitching about Moon, I like what it does to the format, but what's the difference in those examples other than we have already accepted Storm and Moon as forces that exist/should exist in Legacy?

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

But even considering this, can you not agree that it is quite feel bad to lose to your opponent doing nothing harder than picking his/her nose? [...] I just can't stand the "yolo" factor.

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So true.

As I wrote to Slosh in a private conversation, the problem is that Eldrazi changes Legacy's face which is mostly based on stack interaction and tempo plays. If the metagame changes slightly, that's not a problem, but if
the face of Legacy switches to a static grimace then that's something I dislike. That does not mean that there's something wrong at the moment but playing "shops" and stalling boards with yolo-derpy turn 1 plays takes away
some factors of the format that I enjoy the most. Just take a look at how miserable Vintage games play out. Let modern be the topdeck format, Vintage the yolo-derp turn 1 thing, and leave Legacy as versatile as possible.
In the end, Stompy decks take away a certain skillfulness and understanding of the game but I mean, hey, some people want to make Standard playable in Legacy.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

When do you Mull is a skill in Shops that will get you to the top tables or knock you out round 3. What to side also.

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Mtg Essentials vol. 1

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

Mtg Essentials vol. 1

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Yep, because knowing when to Mull when you have Brainstorm and 2 fetches is exactly the same as when you have 0 manipulation.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Yep, because knowing when to Mull when you have Brainstorm and 2 fetches is exactly the same as when you have 0 manipulation.

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Wow, that's generalized to the max.

Guess that's also part of the so-called "agency" thing. :cool:

Thats not a word I picked. Also really, I am glad you can all bitch about shops now being a thing. You're all about 10 years behind Vintage players but I have faith it will not take you 10 years to work out how to play against it.

But in all honesty, are you all really going to tell me a deck that breaks up the cantrip cartel is a bad thing in Legacy? Are you really going to tell me that years and years of building dominance being taken down a notch is something to be unhappy about? It might not be in a way you like, but it was never going to be. You all just wanted to keep jamming Brainstorm and who cares about the 38-40% of people that didn't. Legacy NEEDS this change. I see no issue whatsoever in this. Feel free to disagree but hey, we all need a new target to bitch about since SnT ain't jamming Demons and wrecking face like it use to.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

So true.

As I wrote to Slosh in a private conversation, the problem is that Eldrazi changes Legacy's face which is mostly based on stack interaction and tempo plays. If the metagame changes slightly, that's not a problem, but if the face of Legacy switches to a static grimace then that's something I dislike. That does not mean that there's something wrong at the moment but playing "shops" and stalling boards with yolo-derpy turn 1 plays takes away some factors of the format that I enjoy the most. Just take a look at how miserable Vintage games play out. Let modern be the topdeck format, Vintage the yolo-derp turn 1 thing, and leave Legacy as versatile as possible. In the end, Stompy decks take away a certain skillfulness and understanding of the game but I mean, hey, some people want to make Standard playable in Legacy.

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First of all, I have to ask, what does "static grimace" mean? Like, I get that it's supposed to be bad, but I just don't understand what "bad" constitutes in your mind because you've described it in poetic terms rather than concrete ones.

The format's best decks are based around making the game as non-interactive as possible. Miracles locks you under Counterbalance + Top. Lands locks you out of mana. Storm is an exercise in masturbation. Sure, getting to that point of lockout is where the interaction happens, but Chalice on turn 1 isn't the end of interaction. There are like a million outs to that play, and if you don't have one, then that's not really the Chalice player's fault. If you do, then we're back to playing interactive Magic. Not only that, but the Chalice player has to figure you have an out, and must either sequence their plays to protect themselves from that eventuality or go all-in on Chalice locking you out and leave themselves vulnerable to an Abrupt Decay.

Now, I don't want to cast aspersions on Storm, Lands, or Miracles players. I recognize that there is a lot of play to those decks, and experience and skill make a big difference. But the same is true of Chalice decks, they just operate differently. Your mulligan decisions are of paramount importance, as once you've settled on your starting hand, you're heavily reliant on the top of your deck. But even once the game's started, sequencing is still rather difficult, unless you have an easy line like turn 1 Chalice (which isn't even necessarily game over, as it's terrible in the mirror and irrelevant against several other decks in the metagame). Deciding whether or not to play around Daze comes up a lot, as it does with other decks, but the pressure to make the right decision is higher because you're less likely to have another chance to resolve a Chalice in that game.

Making these kinds of decisions is highly dependent upon prior experience with the deck. It's very easy to keep a hand with a turn 1 Chalice and have it be the wrong decision: maybe the hand dies to Force of Will, or a single Wasteland. Maybe your turn 1 Chalice requires a City of Traitors to be played, leaving you vulnerable to being completely Wastelanded out of the game if you try to make a turn 2 play. It's not as easy as you think it is, and I think the reason people think it is easy is because they have never played the Chalice deck.

EDIT: I just saw that you edited in a bit in this post about how making mulligan decisions is a level 1 MTG skill. Maybe that's true, but it's also the level 1 skill that the (vast) majority of players don't do properly, and players playing Brainstorm decks get bailed out of their terrible mulligans with quality cantrips so often that they've forgotten what it's like to mull without a safety net. You think you know enough about mulliganing to play a Chalice deck effectively? Do it. Prove me wrong.

Since when is a deck's legitimacy in this format were measured by how difficult it is to play? Is DDFT the "most Legacy" deck? Are the people running Show and Tell or Burn or Eldrazi less smart than the noble [insert pet deck here] player? Personally I think they're smarter for showing up with something that they know will minimize decision fatigue over 9 rounds while still giving them a very good win percentage against the rest of the field. And let's not sit in some high tower and pretend like Legacy's top tier has been some exclusive club of enigmas and cerebral experiences.

You know what "interactions" I've had over the past 5-6 years? Turn 1 Delver with Daze/Force backup! Turn 1 DRS into Wasteland/Hymn! Turn 1 Top, Turn 2 Counterbalance! Super difficult plays there, way more deserving of a win than Turn 1 Show and Tell or Goblin Guide.

Let's face it, SCG shined a huge spotlight on this format and made it a lot more competitive than it used to be. A lot more people are playing to win, not to brew, or to relish the experience. When you show up to a large event to play and have fun with a pet deck, you have to accept that you've made winning a secondary goal, and that not everyone else shares your point of view. I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

But in all honesty, are you all really going to tell me a deck that breaks up the cantrip cartel is a bad thing in Legacy? Are you really going to tell me that years and years of building dominance being taken down a notch is something to be unhappy about? It might not be in a way you like, but it was never going to be. You all just wanted to keep jamming Brainstorm and who cares about the 38-40% of people that didn't. Legacy NEEDS this change. I see no issue whatsoever in this. Feel free to disagree but hey, we all need a new target to bitch about since SnT ain't jamming Demons and wrecking face like it use to.

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GPs have been won by non-blue decks before Eldrazi. There are options to those not wanting to play blue. Death and Taxes, Lands and Elves being the most successful ones in later times. They don't have the same penetration as the blue decks, in the case of lands perhaps in part due to budget, in the case of the other two decks, it probably has a lot to do with many players coming to Legacy to cast their cantrips so the brainstorm decks are (perhaps massively) overrepresented.

That pisses you off?
It gives you a hard-on slamming your turn one chalices because that for some reason annoys you? It seems like the answer is yes.

Am I one to judge you? I guess not. It's a game. We're all adults. But does it frustrate me? It sure does.

But again, for me, it's the skill-issue. Yes you can twiddle your thumbs all day and talk about how great of a gaming experience it makes for when the biggest skill-tester comes before the game begins (mulliganing). I honestly don't think that's anywhere near as interesting as in-game decision making.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree :smile:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Thats not a word I picked. Also really, I am glad you can all bitch about shops now being a thing. You're all about 10 years behind Vintage players but I have faith it will not take you 10 years to work out how to play against it.

But in all honesty, are you all really going to tell me a deck that breaks up the cantrip cartel is a bad thing in Legacy? Are you really going to tell me that years and years of building dominance being taken down a notch is something to be unhappy about? It might not be in a way you like, but it was never going to be. You all just wanted to keep jamming Brainstorm and who cares about the 38-40% of people that didn't. Legacy NEEDS this change. I see no issue whatsoever in this. Feel free to disagree but hey, we all need a new target to bitch about since SnT ain't jamming Demons and wrecking face like it use to.

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Alright. Personally, I don't think it's a tragedy because Legacy cards are balanced enough to deal with a tier 1 Stompy deck; at least as far as I can imagine; decks also proved to be equipped for Eldrazi.

"Cantrip cartel" is a term I am not willing to accept or use. I don't think we should use a negatively connotated word for BS,Ponder,GP in general. Here, nevilshute described it detailed enough in his post above. And yet again, I'd like
to refer back to what I called Legacy's face; meaning the style of the format in comparison to modern (topdecking) and Vintage (yolo-playing). Just a sidenote, I never complained about SneakShow and never really understood people
who were complaining about it. But that's of no relevance here.

I don't see why Legacy would need a change. It changes, certainly; new cards influence the format but something that transforms Legacy into a derpish format where cc3+ spells are a fine choice to mitigate Eldrazi damage is something that changes Legacy entirely. I don't have a problem with the format/meta with Eldrazi but can't understand peoples' interests in the game. I guess, Dark Rituals and BSs had their influence on me. It's clearly a form of subject fallacy on both sides.


Edit: so many comments

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Originally Posted by Delvis

First of all, I have to ask, what does "static grimace" mean? Like, I get that it's supposed to be bad, but I just don't understand what "bad" constitutes in your mind because you've described it in poetic terms rather than concrete ones.

The format's best decks are based around making the game as non-interactive as possible. Miracles locks you under Counterbalance + Top. Lands locks you out of mana. Storm is an exercise in masturbation. Sure, getting to that point of lockout is where the interaction happens, but Chalice on turn 1 isn't the end of interaction. There are like a million outs to that play, and if you don't have one, then that's not really the Chalice player's fault. If you do, then we're back to playing interactive Magic. Not only that, but the Chalice player has to figure you have an out, and must either sequence their plays to protect themselves from that eventuality or go all-in on Chalice locking you out and leave themselves vulnerable to an Abrupt Decay.

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I tried to paint a picture of lock artifacts on turn 1 and then derping to a win.

"Storm is an exercise in masturbation." Funny comment but honestly if you'd play the deck or play against it you'd realize that it's damn far away from that.

I have empathy for both sides of this argument, but ultimately I think the Eldrazi deck is stupid and tt's the power level of the Eldrazi creatures, plus the sudden utility of the extra sol lands the deck can use, that are the culprit, NOT Chalice.

If you are playing this format, you have to be able to beat a chalice on 1 or accept that you will lose to it and move on, because you also have to be able to beat Countertop lock which has been the most dominant deck for like three years now. And you have had to respect Chalice because it will always have some sort of presence, whether it's MUD or Dragon Stompy or Tezzeret or Aggro Loam. So I agree with the people who say that if you can't beat it, that's on you, because it is a known commodity.

But traditionally, people who have been able to beat a Chalice have been rewarded for doing so in those matchups. The issue with the Eldrazi deck is that even if you play around chalice or can beat it, you are by definition on a slower game plan, and the efficiency and power level of the Eldrazi creatures coupled with the no-downsides ramp they are able to employ mean you will simply die to that.

Eldrazi basically gets to play the game in a time warp compared to other fair strategies. That pushes people toward playing either other prison strategies that go after the Eldrazi weaknesses, or very fast strategies that try to win as soon as possible. The end result is that you have a format where interaction is punished. This is one of the biggest complaints on this board about Modern. Legacy has issues with card portability and availability that will prevent it from devolving into all Eldrazi as quickly as Modern did, but at least in Modern you know Wizards will do something. Here, I'm not so sure.

IMO the poster child for the problem is the card Reality Smasher. It is basically a Lava Axe with upside every turn. I've beaten a Chalice out of Eldrazi -- I have yet to beat this card. In fact, when they play a Chalice, I usually breathe a sigh of relief because I will probably get to make a third land drop before dying. But then again, I usually have a plan to beat Chalice, because it's always been a real card and has enough in common with Counterbalance that together they demand an answer in your 75.

Sure, there are a lot of cards that make Smasher more annoying: Mimic makes it 10 coming across on turn 3, TKS can strip whatever tech you come up with, and Chalice can blank your STP + extraneous card if that was your plan. However none of these cards, without the threat of a Lava Axe on legs, are crushing.

I feel like Reality Smasher is Legacy's Lodestone Golem -- it comes down way above curve, protects itself, and synergizes incredibly well with another powerful card set. But even if Reality Smasher was Lodestone Golem... I would take that. No trample, still can bolt it for 2 mana, dies to Ancient Grudge, QPM, blockers... but as is, you basically hold your breath every draw step. No thanks.

Edit: Forgot to actually say why I think all this is bad. I think the Eldrazi deck shuts the door on fringe decks/nonblue decks just as much as it does on blue decks. So if you think that the key to breaking up blue's dominance is this ... forget it. Most nonblue decks also run 1CC spells and also lack the ability to ramp into insane creatures without a little bit more time than is available. You think spending a turn casting Thoughtseize is going to work against this monstrosity?

As long as Brainstorm + fetches are in Legacy, blue decks will always be best equipped to deal with new threats. The format is currently 17% Chalice, 55% Brainstorm. That leaves about a quarter of the format for everything else -- oh and Rishadan Port decks (Lands, D&T) are a third of that.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

EDIT @sloth: I posted before I saw your response, but I can certainly appreciate what you are saying, and I think your thoughts are spot-on with Phil's. Glad you guys are agreeing with him because a couple folks in the reddit thread sort of slammed him, and I was giving him a hard time when we were playing last night haha.

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In fact to some extent I agree with both of you even with Dice_Box... I see no problem in losing T1 to Dredge, Storm, or someone T1 CotV/Moon that's the game we are playing... but I'd not like it to be the norm.... I agree you can improve your chances by tuning your MD/SB according to your chances of playing X and Y this happens all the time, there is a skill in that and that's great... but... what I do mind that out of a sudden pack of debilitated steroid aliens run out of the gates and a beermat can beat you with it... cards have shown through last 5 years which changed the face of the format more or less, I haven't liked most of them and I agree present decks can adjust to the beermat's evil schemes, will adjust, some things get better some worse as happend with DiG, TC and other stuff like DRS, Thalia, Delver...

will the game be better after? do I enjoy it? do I enjoy the process getting there? I'm asking myself these questions and my answer is... no... for reasons mentioned in the first post

after all it comes down to the personal opinion and I'm rather fighting DiG and Cruises (yet I have never cast 1 in Legacy) than something that is directly opposite to what I identify Legacy with

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Why is it not? Why can I as a Lands player not bitch about Storm or Bloodmoon? Its the same thing only on a diffrent wavelength. Why is it that someone can go on a rant about a deck/card that causes them issues but if I was to do the same about a commonly played and accepted deck I would get told to pull my head in and stop being a fool? Why is it fine some someone to bitch when it is Brainstorm that is getting locked out but it is not acceptable for a Lands player to bitch about Moon? I mean I am not bitching about Moon, I like what it does to the format, but what's the difference in those examples other than we have already accepted Storm and Moon as forces that exist/should exist in Legacy?

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obv. you can bitch as you like, in fact I don't care, I've played Lands too... you missed the point, it's not matter of this discussion I just don't believe your Storm MU is that bad to be worth bitching about, if I've come to ~50/50 MU in 2011 with a glacialy slow deck in a LGS, I believe you can do the same in 2016 having agency over your deck this metagame...



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edit - so this turns into another BS shitstorm now feat. CotV, which it wasn't about in the first place... oh wait, it's The Brainstorm show... fine, time to go, have fun:cool:

It's so refreshing to see many people that were dismissive of the "the cantrip cartel is oppressive on the format" faction being for once on the other side. And this is just because BS penetration is not 80% anymore of the top meta, but has decreased to what, 60%? I for one remember a legacy like that, and i liked it way more than the last 3-4 year's one.

Since Eldrazi became a things, the format has changed considerably. With storm weak to all those eldrazi lists, midrange creature lists which destroy eldrazi and are favored vs miracle are getting a lot of play again. Confidant is a card that i see regularly again. Land has become the new probably top deck of the format, and it's not blue. Miracle lists are playing Moats and many decks are playing Ensnaring bridge. Shardless is now the probably the best positioned blue-based deck, and Delver presence has reduced to Grixis 4-c delver with pyromancers and Anglers to be able to interact with eventual chalices instead of playing 38 1-drops, 4 dazes and 18 lands.


It's a legitimate miracle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

I tried to paint a picture of lock artifacts on turn 1 and then derping to a win.

"Storm is an exercise in masturbation." Funny comment but honestly if you'd play the deck or play against it you'd realize that it's damn far away from that.

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My point with that line specifically was just to say that the combo itself is an exercise in masturbation. Setting it up takes skill and effort, and I don't want to diminish that.

I crunched some numbers on the representation of Brainstorm decks in the meta today, and this discussion seems as good a place as any to dump it. So, no real message behind my post, just some information I found.

TC Decks gives points for the tournament's number of rounds and the number of rounds won in the top 8. I went to the month, added up the number of points garnered by decks with Brainstorm, and divided it by the total number of points.

August 2015, right before the DTT ban: Decks with Brainstorm get 69.5% of the points
December 2015, right before Oath of the Gatewatch: Decks with Brainstorm get 71% of the points
So far in March 2016: Decks with Brainstorm get 51.5% of the points

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott

August 2015, right before the DTT ban: Decks with Brainstorm get 69.5% of the points
December 2015, right before Oath of the Gatewatch: Decks with Brainstorm get 71% of the points
So far in March 2016: Decks with Brainstorm get 51.5% of the points

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Oh sweet Lord, we're in a time warp. I actually remember when Legacy was only 50% blue, and I thought nothing short of taking a pack of the best U/x cards out back and shooting them could bring that back. This is the most interesting meta since probably 2011. I will note that that 50% blue meta is what Legacy is to me, and the format has become worse with each passing year (until now).

EDIT: It seems like there are a lot of salty blue players ITT who are unhappy that there is finally a policeman for their excesses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott

August 2015, right before the DTT ban: Decks with Brainstorm get 69.5% of the points
December 2015, right before Oath of the Gatewatch: Decks with Brainstorm get 71% of the points

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Dig Through Time's only crime was being synergistic with what was already the best card quality engine in the format: Brainstorm and friends. Personally I think DTT is a much more interesting card to have around, and if Legacy players weren't addicted to Brainstorm it could be banned and arguments about Chalice would be less heated.

Almost all the share Brainstorm has lost has gone to Chalice of the Void. The vast majority of these new Chalice decks are the Eldrazi deck. I don't think this is the right solution to the blue menace/cantrip cartel. We aren't seeing old favorites resurface or cool engines emerge. Though I guess we're getting that sixth color experience.

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

But even considering this, can you not agree that it is quite feel bad to lose to your opponent doing nothing harder than picking his/her nose?

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Not if my deck is soft to nose-pickers.

If "feel bad" losses are an issue for you, pick a deck that is not soft to the strategies which you personally have issues losing to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

We aren't seeing old favorites resurface or cool engines emerge. Though I guess we're getting that sixth color experience.

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Yes and no. While it's true that Eldrazi are taking the Chalice mantle and running with it, a larger effect of that is a bunch of fair decks (which are both resilient to Chalice and good against Delver and Miracles) are getting a chance to shine. While I'm indifferent to the actual Eldrazi deck, it's good to see what doors it's opened by being a presence to contend with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

Almost all the share Brainstorm has lost has gone to Chalice of the Void. The vast majority of these new Chalice decks are the Eldrazi deck. I don't think this is the right solution to the blue menace/cantrip cartel. We aren't seeing old favorites resurface or cool engines emerge. Though I guess we're getting that sixth color experience.

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I checked on that, and at least so far, what you said isn't the case.

December, 2015:
Decks w/ Brainstorm- 71% of TC Decks points
Decks w/out Brainstorm that aren't Eldrazi- 29% of TC Decks points

March, 2016:
Decks w/ Brainstorm- 51.5% of TC Decks points
Decks w/out Brainstorm that aren't Eldrazi- 39.5% of TC Decks points
Eldrazi decks- 9% of TC Decks points

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

@nevilshute: Thanks for listening, man! I completely understand the feeling, but for the most part I identify with Dice_Box on this issue because I view the deckbuilding process as a significant aspect of the game that gives you agency. Phil and I essentially have the same differing perspectives as you guys, and in Phil's case it makes sense to me because I spend a significant amount of time trying to tune and metagame lists, whereas Phil is much more focused on jamming games with the lists and analyzing all of the in-game decisions. This is also part of the reason I think Phil is a good teammate because we bring different strengths to the table which is very cool. Glad people listening to our podcast identify with our different perspectives; I am hoping that means it was an interesting discussion for the listeners.

EDIT @sloth: I posted before I saw your response, but I can certainly appreciate what you are saying, and I think your thoughts are spot-on with Phil's. Glad you guys are agreeing with him because a couple folks in the reddit thread sort of slammed him, and I was giving him a hard time when we were playing last night haha.

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I was one of those on the reddit thread that slammed him and I think this thread backs me up. The majority of the complaints is that its "easy" its "dumb" and it takes "no skill" Those aren't really valid arguments, its just complaining. If your opponent is such a brain-dead mongoloid just play a distraction spell then jam your brainstorm right into chalice and watch them say "ok" then brainstorm away.

No new arguments have been made since the Eldrazi thread when it LOST the last SCG open, to a brainstorm deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott

I checked on that, and at least so far, what you said isn't the case.

December, 2015:
Decks w/ Brainstorm- 71% of TC Decks points
Decks w/out Brainstorm that aren't Eldrazi- 29% of TC Decks points

March, 2016:
Decks w/ Brainstorm- 51.5% of TC Decks points
Decks w/out Brainstorm that aren't Eldrazi- 39.5% of TC Decks points
Eldrazi decks- 9% of TC Decks points

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Hm, just to make sure it's apples to apples

mtgtop8.com

All 2015 decks: 73% Brainstorm, Chalice of the Void 7%
Last two months: Brainstorm 55%, Chalice 17%

So Brainstorm goes down 18%, and Chalice goes up 10%. I guess that means you're right, but I really don't feel like we're being flooded with new decks besides Eldrazi. I guess one extra non-blue deck every few top 8s adds up, but we didn't exactly get a rush of folks in the False Cure thread when that won an IQ.

Still seems like most legacy players are playing a blue deck or Eldrazi or the best non-blue decks from before this year: Lands and D&T and Elves.

That being said, I took a blue deck to a tournament last weekend after thinking very hard about not doing so for the first time in a year or so. I am not sure if I really got punished, I went 1-1 against Eldrazi, lost the three games where Reality Smasher hit the table and beat Chalice twice.

I guess I'm going to bow out of the discussion though because I'm the only person even arguing that the creatures are the problem and not Chalice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

I guess I'm going to bow out of the discussion though because I'm the only person even arguing that the creatures are the problem and not Chalice.

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I don't mean to pile on (and I don't think there's a problem at all), but the idea that the creatures are the problem seems absurd. They can't get through Goyf or Knight reliably, struggle against Liliana, and get absolutely ruined by Baleful Strix. Even Stoneforge Mystic represents a real problem unless they can put Thought-Knot through Cavern. It's ultimately still a Stompy deck, and once you beat their initial hand they're unlikely to topdeck their way back into the game.

I don't think chalice is creating non-games by itself any more than it used to; the real offender is no turn 1 play [chalice on 1] into TKS any turn 2 play you had. At least there is still FoW for one piece of that sequence, but that hand disruption followup is pretty nasty and single-handedly responsible for turning a known annoyance into a winning strategy. It is a small price to pay though to get miracles out of your local meta; and until they ban counterbalance, eldrazi will be a net positive force in the format (its auto-win vs storm making it a negative force in the format).

If the anti-brainstorm (synonymous with anti-FoW) lobby thinks chalice will protect them from the 'belchers' of the format, they're more than welcome to spectate any modern event and see their hypothesis in action. The old spells are what make legacy fun, you're kind of either for the old powerful spells or for new powerful [uninteresting] creatures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

If the anti-brainstorm (synonymous with anti-FoW) lobby thinks chalice will protect them from the 'belchers' of the format, they're more than welcome to spectate any modern event and see their hypothesis in action.

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Those are not synonymous. Just saying.

In the end, Eldrazi is a net positive the format since it cuts down the % of Brainstorm decks while also increasing the number of nonblue, non-Eldrazi decks in the format that counter Eldrazi (e.g. Lands, various midrange decks).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

Those are not synonymous. Just saying.

In the end, Eldrazi is a net positive the format since it cuts down the % of Brainstorm decks while also increasing the number of nonblue, non-Eldrazi decks in the format that counter Eldrazi (e.g. Lands, various midrange decks).

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Outside of Tezzerator and Merfolk, I'm having a hard time coming up with common blue decks that run FoW but not brainstorm (pretty sure legacy splinter twin with chalices still runs brainstorm)...I guess manaless dredge can run it as a sideboard plan?? There are certainly combo decks that run brainstorm without FoW (fins, storm...aluren runs 1 main sometimes), and maybe this is what makes people anti-brainstorm?

It's strange people dislike brainstorm so much, but are happy with FoW when you generally need both to allow FoW to deter 'belchers' effectively. Without quality cantrips, the only real substitute is less color diversity within FoW decks. Maybe it would help to look at brainstorm penetration in the meta by decks without a 1:1 ratio of brainstorms:FoW; then add that number to decks with the 1:1 ratio but which also run Counterbalance and/or Terminus and/or StP. This seems like the brainstorm grouping that is likely responsible for most of the grumbling the card gets. I think it's an oversimplification to say less brainstorms are better for the format until you can statistically prove that the drops are mostly observed in that demographic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

It's strange people dislike brainstorm so much, but are happy with FoW when you generally need both to allow FoW to deter 'belchers' effectively.

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Not a lot of people actually dislike Brainstorm. I think the deal is that people want to see a presence of fair decks that run different tools for consistency.

Yes, we need FoW decks (and by extension cantrip decks) to keep Belcher and Oops from running rampant. But we don't need 70% of the format to be police decks! This has been shown in the past to be true. And personally I don't mind if Belcher pops up every now and again to keep the format honest.

I always defended Legacy when it was 60-75% Brainstorm penetration because I thought the format was robust and diverse despite that concentration. Today Legacy is even more diverse (although admittedly in flux), and I continue to defend it. I have not a lot for sympathy for "feel bad" losses. This is an eternal format.

On a completely different note, I really like the look of that Shardstill list. I've always wanted to cram a Vendilion Clique or two into Shardless, and I played Landstill and Dreadstill for years and like the idea of shuffling up Standstills again.

How is the combo match with only 2 Cliques and 4 Forces for maindeck interaction? Do the 2 Thoughtseize and 4 Meddling Mage in the sideboard make those matchups favorable? On the same note, I guess the extra Baleful Strixs and the two Jittes go a long way towards helping the creature-based matchups, and then Disfigure and Toxic Deluge in the sideboard probably make those matchps pretty reasonable.

I'd love to see Liliana of the Veil alongside the Standstills, but maybe that's not practical with the manabase. Interesting list, guys!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

On a completely different note, I really like the look of that Shardstill list. I've always wanted to cram a Vendilion Clique or two into Shardless, and I played Landstill and Dreadstill for years and like the idea of shuffling up Standstills again.

How is the combo match with only 2 Cliques and 4 Forces for maindeck interaction? Do the 2 Thoughtseize and 4 Meddling Mage in the sideboard make those matchups favorable? On the same note, I guess the extra Baleful Strixs and the two Jittes go a long way towards helping the creature-based matchups, and then Disfigure and Toxic Deluge in the sideboard probably make those matchps pretty reasonable.

I'd love to see Liliana of the Veil alongside the Standstills, but maybe that's not practical with the manabase. Interesting list, guys!

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Yes, Let's talk about Standstill and how awesome it is. I've been running 3x in Merfolk and I love it, I took it to 2 local tournaments, and crushed a Rock deck, 4c Loam deck (those 2 are not great matchups), Miracles, and lost to a Miracles (I made some terrible plays) and lost to a DnT due to a crazy mana screw. Between Standstill and Silvergill Adept I was drawing so many cards, I could over extend and still have more dudes to play. Its great.

I want to give this Shardstill a try but I'm lacking some cards, I'd love to see a new UR or URw Landstill deck. I think Eldrazi kind of opens the door for this as a prevalence of Chalice has decreased the number of turn 1 delvers than kind of makes standstill unplayable before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreatWhale

Yes, Let's talk about Standstill and how awesome it is. I've been running 3x in Merfolk and I love it, I took it to 2 local tournaments, and crushed a Rock deck, 4c Loam deck (those 2 are not great matchups), Miracles, and lost to a Miracles (I made some terrible plays) and lost to a DnT due to a crazy mana screw. Between Standstill and Silvergill Adept I was drawing so many cards, I could over extend and still have more dudes to play. Its great.

I want to give this Shardstill a try but I'm lacking some cards, I'd love to see a new UR or URw Landstill deck. I think Eldrazi kind of opens the door for this as a prevalence of Chalice has decreased the number of turn 1 delvers than kind of makes standstill unplayable before.

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I don't think that turn 1 Delver was ever really the thing keeping Standstill down. It took a whole lot of meta shifts to firmly push them out (look at what happened with UR Landstill when Treasure Cruise/UR Delver was everywhere). The thing people seem to have missed recently is that turn 1 Delver or Deathrite, turn 2 Standstill (or Stuff + Standstill) is one hell of an opening. It's best use has morphed into being a tempo play rather than a way for a control deck to seal a lead.