Do you enjoy the current state of legacy?

Hi,

just to make one thing clear, i dont want to bitch about certain cards, decks, or state the format is unhealthy or anything like this. Afterall looking at legacy by numbers i think the format is more or less fine in terms of diversity and where its at right now.

But even though the meta seems to be fine by numbers, i cant really enjoy legacy right now... i was wondering how you guys feel about it?

feel free to discuss

and here just my 2 cents on the topic:
In my specific case i think it began with the Eldrazi entering the arena, with tons of chalice decks, Loam-lock decks, Miracles still at the top and so on i think the Meta got "controllier" than before and lots of the more dynamic decks disappered. Its not as if i wasnt able to beat those strategies, but many of the currently well doing decks feel to me as if if they were just trying to slam as many lock pieces as possible and hope that they eventually will get there. The latest episode in the game of hatebears was adding Leovold to BUG... and this is the only thing that really changed over the course of recent legacy history, hatebears and stompy decks were added, thats it

edit: here my first attempt to analyze the metagame

as promised, here are the first results of my research (Attention, wall of text incoming)


Just for better comprehension of the results: What have i done? I split the analyzed timespan into quarters for each year. Then i have built a list of all cards, that were played in this whole timespan. Then i looked up for each single card how big the metashare was for that timespan... There were to methods that came up to my mind for doing so

A: Count all decks that play a certain card during a quarter and divide by the total decks played in that quarter. This gives you a view on how many decks play a specific card, but it doesnt really represent how many copies.

or B: Count the exact numbers of the chosen cards that were played during that quarter and divide by the total of deck played that quarter.

Method B gives you the average Count of that Card over all Decks. For Example over all decks in that quarter 3.1 Brainstorms were played on average. To build a saturation out of that, i divided that number by 4. This means that (3.1/4) * 100 = 77.5% of the possible Brainstorms were played during that era. If the Value reached 100% that meant that all decks would have played 4 Brainstorms. The Issue on this method is that you cant tell wether half of the decks played for 4 Brainstorms or all of the decks played 2 Brainstorms, but it is a lot more precise in terms of getting subtle changes, for example if Miracles played only 3 or 4 Counterbalances during that era or another 4-Off went down to only one copy for example.

I know both methods have heir strengths and weaknesses, but I personally chose B, because i think it is more streamlined to measure the performance of a specific card, rather than the deck it features. And now lets get on to the data. I set the treshhold to a change of 5% in saturation between the quarters and here are the uncommented results:

Important note: The percentages describe how much the meta-share increased or decreased absolutely

I. Q 11 -> II. Q 11

Winners:

Mental Misstep 22,05%
Green Sun's Zenith 12,74%
Hive Mind 7,86%
Ancient Tomb 7,63%
Pact of Negation 7,52%
Leyline of Sanctity 7,42%
Summoner's Pact 6,91%
Grim Monolith 6,83%
Pact of the Titan 6,27%
City of Traitors 5,87%
Underground Sea 5,78%
Flooded Strand 5,73%
Intuition 5,51%
Polluted Delta 5,31%

Losers:

Scalding Tarn -5,23%
Preordain -5,31%
Tropical Island -5,31%
Duress -5,77%
Counterbalance -5,99%
Sensei's Divining Top -6,54%
Progenitus -7,40%
Tarmogoyf -7,64%
Lotus Petal -7,65%
Pithing Needle -7,70%
Aether Vial -8,64%
Krosan Grip -10,21%

II. Q 11 -> III. Q 11

Winners:

Mental Misstep 43,47%
Vendilion Clique 17,47%
Stoneforge Mystic 15,09%
Swords to Plowshares 13,24%
Jace, the Mind Sculptor 13,23%
Tundra 12,96%
Brainstorm 12,68%
Force of Will 12,48%
Wasteland 11,36%
Ancestral Vision 10,86%
Flooded Strand 10,41%
Mishra's Factory 7,77%
Wrath of God 7,73%
Daze 7,68%
Angel's Grace 7,44%
Knight of the Reliquary 7,30%
Meddling Mage 6,79%
Spellstutter Sprite 6,27%
Batterskull 6,13%
Green Sun's Zenith 5,85%
Mutavault 5,80%
Surgical Extraction 5,78%
Disenchant 5,58%
Wooded Foothills 5,18%
Mox Diamond 5,17%

Losers:

Ponder -5,06%
Seat of the Synod -5,22%
Ravenous Trap -5,36%
Krosan Grip -5,60%
Sensei's Divining Top -6,80%
Engineered Plague -7,46%
Ethersworn Canonist -9,52%
Mindbreak Trap -9,61%

III. Q 11 -> IV. Q 11

Winners:

Snapcaster Mage 26,00%
Delver of Secrets 20,00%
Wasteland 15,81%
Lightning Bolt 15,74%
Spell Snare 14,92%
Stifle 13,80%
Volcanic Island 13,54%
Silence 13,29%
Mother of Runes 12,24%
Tarmogoyf 12,09%
Mindbreak Trap 12,06%
Tormod's Crypt 11,27%
Punishing Fire 10,40%
Grove of the Burnwillows 9,62%
Duress 9,06%
Dismember 8,60%
Lion's Eye Diamond 8,51%
Dark Ritual 8,26%
Lotus Petal 8,09%
Hymn to Tourach 7,83%
Marsh Flats 7,24%
Nimble Mongoose 6,94%
Gitaxian Probe 6,55%
Orim's Chant 6,38%
Ravenous Trap 5,92%
Arid Mesa 5,86%
Phyrexian Revoker 5,49%
Chrome Mox 5,32%
Ethersworn Canonist 5,22%
Cabal Ritual 5,05%

Losers:

Exhume -5,05%
Engineered Plague -5,10%
Slaughter Pact -5,11%
Summoner's Pact -5,15%
Entomb -5,32%
Ancient Grudge -5,35%
Mishra's Factory -5,37%
Grim Monolith -5,40%
Disenchant -5,46%
Wooded Foothills -5,54%
Careful Study -5,62%
Standstill -5,87%
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn -6,05%
Pact of Negation -6,36%
Pact of the Titan -6,39%
Stoneforge Mystic -6,41%
Noble Hierarch -6,56%
Mutavault -6,66%
Polluted Delta -6,70%
Ancient Tomb -7,01%
Cabal Therapy -7,08%
Hive Mind -7,23%
Intuition -7,25%
Angel's Grace -7,55%
Meddling Mage -7,88%
Spell Pierce -7,94%
Swords to Plowshares -9,81%
Natural Order -9,93%
Underground Sea -10,65%
Show and Tell -11,29%
Ancestral Vision -12,05%
Flooded Strand -12,56%
Misty Rainforest -13,57%
Tundra -14,19%
Vendilion Clique -14,52%
Brainstorm -16,74%
Jace, the Mind Sculptor -18,96%
Force of Will -21,65%
Mental Misstep -61,52%

IV. Q 11 -> I. Q 12

Winners:

Surgical Extraction 10,48%
Brainstorm 9,91%
Force of Will 9,87%
Jace, the Mind Sculptor 9,17%
Cabal Therapy 9,13%
Intuition 8,48%
Spell Pierce 8,35%
Show and Tell 7,83%
Gemstone Mine 7,83%
Rite of Flame 7,83%
Ancient Tomb 7,52%
Counterbalance 6,74%
Burning Wish 6,09%
Nature's Claim 6,09%
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 5,96%
Chalice of the Void 5,87%
Tundra 5,83%
Flooded Strand 5,74%
City of Brass 5,65%
Engineered Plague 5,22%
Grim Monolith 5,22%
Hive Mind 5,22%
Leyline of Sanctity 5,17%
Underground Sea 5,13%
Polluted Delta 5,09%

Losers:

Grove of the Burnwillows -5,09%
Progenitus -5,13%
Karakas -5,48%
Ravenous Trap -5,61%
Mox Diamond -5,74%
Ethersworn Canonist -5,91%
Spell Snare -5,96%
Punishing Fire -6,09%
Silence -6,74%
Swords to Plowshares -6,83%
Stifle -7,26%
Lightning Bolt -7,61%
Delver of Secrets -7,83%
Mother of Runes -7,96%
Hymn to Tourach -8,22%
Daze -8,35%
Thoughtseize -8,70%
Umezawa's Jitte -9,00%
Scrubland -9,04%
Relic of Progenitus -9,26%
Qasali Pridemage -9,26%
Tormod's Crypt -9,74%
Mindbreak Trap -9,96%
Knight of the Reliquary -10,39%
Marsh Flats -15,09%
Wasteland -15,48%
Tarmogoyf -20,78%

I. Q 12 -> II. Q 12

Winners:

Swords to Plowshares 9,49%
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 8,93%
Mother of Runes 8,62%
Force of Will 8,54%
Noble Hierarch 7,96%
Misty Rainforest 7,91%
Counterbalance 7,55%
Sensei's Divining Top 7,20%
Inquisition of Kozilek 7,18%
Leyline of Sanctity 6,87%
Knight of the Reliquary 6,44%
Lingering Souls 6,00%
Savannah 5,97%
Show and Tell 5,86%
Faithless Looting 5,68%
Submerge 5,55%
Guided Passage 5,36%
Figure of Destiny 5,36%
Ethersworn Canonist 5,22%

Losers:

Cabal Ritual -5,22%
Goblin Piledriver -5,22%
Krosan Grip -5,45%
Bayou -5,66%
Chalice of the Void -5,87%
Dark Confidant -6,19%
Infernal Tutor -6,21%
Gempalm Incinerator -6,52%
Dismember -6,64%
Aether Vial -6,96%
Goblin Lackey -6,96%
Goblin Matron -6,96%
Goblin Ringleader -6,96%
Dark Ritual -8,92%
Spell Snare -9,71%
Delver of Secrets -9,79%
Verdant Catacombs -9,86%
Stifle -11,74%
Wasteland -12,59%

II. Q 12 -> III. Q 12

Winners:

Terminus 13,82%
Cavern of Souls 12,16%
Scalding Tarn 11,46%
Ponder 9,51%
Daze 9,45%
Omniscience 8,89%
Aether Vial 8,62%
Griselbrand 8,46%
Delver of Secrets 7,45%
Goblin Lackey 7,18%
Goblin Matron 7,00%
Goblin Ringleader 7,00%
Oblivion Ring 6,83%
Thoughtseize 6,49%
Stifle 6,37%
Pithing Needle 6,33%
Goblin Warchief 5,92%
Gempalm Incinerator 5,83%
Karakas 5,82%
Volcanic Island 5,35%
Goblin Piledriver 5,34%
Entreat the Angels 5,34%
Faerie Macabre 5,34%
Verdant Catacombs 5,19%

Losers:

Ethersworn Canonist -5,16%
Guided Passage -5,36%
Inquisition of Kozilek -5,56%
Gemstone Mine -5,62%
Stoneforge Mystic -5,91%
Intuition -5,94%
Lightning Bolt -6,39%
Snapcaster Mage -6,97%
Lion's Eye Diamond -7,42%
Leyline of the Void -7,67%
Tormod's Crypt -7,72%
Pyroblast -7,73%
Bloodbraid Elf -7,74%
Nature's Claim -9,04%
Grove of the Burnwillows -10,58%
Punishing Fire -10,58%
Leyline of Sanctity -13,26%

III. Q 12 -> IV. Q 12

Winners:

Abrupt Decay 23,52%
Deathrite Shaman 16,31%
Polluted Delta 16,28%
Brainstorm 13,51%
Tarmogoyf 10,66%
Ponder 8,64%
Tropical Island 8,55%
Duress 7,81%
Force of Will 7,53%
Underground Sea 7,49%
Lion's Eye Diamond 7,38%
Verdant Catacombs 6,61%
Engineered Plague 6,42%
Dark Ritual 5,86%
Cabal Ritual 5,65%
Bayou 5,60%
Hymn to Tourach 5,28%
Infernal Tutor 5,18%

Losers:

Oblivion Ring -5,02%
Choke -5,17%
Red Elemental Blast -5,19%
Sensei's Divining Top -5,24%
Engineered Explosives -5,32%
Omniscience -5,50%
City of Traitors -5,61%
Qasali Pridemage -5,77%
Ancient Tomb -6,06%
Cavern of Souls -6,87%
Mother of Runes -7,28%
Path to Exile -7,79%
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben -8,01%
Windswept Heath -9,17%
Savannah -9,48%
Noble Hierarch -9,61%
Swords to Plowshares -10,07%
Knight of the Reliquary -11,98%
Green Sun's Zenith -12,48%

IV. Q 12 -> I. Q 13

Winners:

Thoughtseize 9,85%
Deathrite Shaman 8,10%
Leyline of Sanctity 7,23%
Lotus Petal 6,59%
Griselbrand 5,74%
Lightning Bolt 5,66%
Verdant Catacombs 5,49%
Wooded Foothills 5,45%
Burning Wish 5,08%
Rite of Flame 5,02%

Losers:

Flooded Strand -5,22%
Terminus -5,29%
Tropical Island -5,57%
Scalding Tarn -5,73%
Vendilion Clique -6,36%
Force of Will -6,71%
Brainstorm -6,95%
Polluted Delta -7,10%

I. Q 13 -> II. Q 13

Winners:

Misty Rainforest 14,97%
Tarmogoyf 14,46%
Force of Will 14,07%
Brainstorm 13,93%
Shardless Agent 12,51%
Delver of Secrets 11,46%
Ancestral Vision 10,40%
Tropical Island 10,19%
Lightning Bolt 9,41%
Nimble Mongoose 8,66%
Baleful Strix 8,66%
Wasteland 8,50%
Daze 8,09%
Volcanic Island 7,91%
Surgical Extraction 7,40%
Spell Pierce 7,36%
Scalding Tarn 6,92%
Ponder 6,38%
Submerge 6,25%
Stifle 5,81%

Losers:

Burning Wish -5,03%
Engineered Plague -5,24%
Lingering Souls -5,32%
Inquisition of Kozilek -5,46%
Seething Song -5,49%
Stoneforge Mystic -5,55%
Dark Confidant -5,72%
Relic of Progenitus -6,14%
Rite of Flame -6,69%
Progenitus -7,37%
Gitaxian Probe -7,90%
Lotus Petal -8,68%

II. Q 13 -> III. Q 13

Winners:

Gitaxian Probe 10,56%
Flooded Strand 6,92%
Swords to Plowshares 6,28%
Flusterstorm 5,66%

Losers:

Grim Lavamancer -5,03%
Underground Sea -5,09%
Scalding Tarn -5,23%
Submerge -5,32%
Baleful Strix -5,66%
Nimble Mongoose -5,70%
Shardless Agent -5,77%
Wasteland -6,00%
Wooded Foothills -6,19%
Snapcaster Mage -6,38%
Daze -6,39%
Spell Pierce -7,38%
Delver of Secrets -7,61%
Force of Will -7,72%
Tropical Island -7,88%
Ponder -8,34%
Brainstorm -9,75%
Lightning Bolt -10,81%
Surgical Extraction -11,12%
Misty Rainforest -11,19%
Tarmogoyf -13,01%

III. Q 13 -> IV. Q 13

Winners:

Lotus Petal 6,13%

Losers:

Flooded Strand -6,59%

IV. Q 13 -> I. Q 14

Winners:

True-Name Nemesis 14,65%
Swords to Plowshares 10,02%
Stoneforge Mystic 9,78%
Wasteland 8,52%
Aether Vial 6,45%
Daze 5,63%
Rishadan Port 5,27%
Pithing Needle 5,07%
Meddling Mage 5,05%
Arid Mesa 5,04%

Losers:

Misty Rainforest -5,06%
Stifle -5,14%
Nimble Mongoose -5,30%
Dark Ritual -5,38%
Duress -6,71%
Lotus Petal -6,79%
Tarmogoyf -6,81%
Cabal Therapy -7,14%
Gitaxian Probe -10,73%

I. Q 14 -> II. Q 14

Winners:

Cabal Therapy 8,68%
Lion's Eye Diamond 8,15%
Gitaxian Probe 7,34%
Deathrite Shaman 6,40%

Losers:

True-Name Nemesis -5,29%
Tundra -5,48%
Flooded Strand -5,88%
Red Elemental Blast -6,53%
Force of Will -6,83%
Stoneforge Mystic -8,98%
Swords to Plowshares -10,85%

II. Q 14 -> III. Q 14

Winners:

Force of Will 8,11%
Flusterstorm 7,37%
Misty Rainforest 7,25%
Sensei's Divining Top 6,44%
Terminus 5,65%
Verdant Catacombs 5,30%
Council's Judgment 5,16%
Arid Mesa 5,02%

Losers:

Dark Confidant -5,10%
Deathrite Shaman -5,29%
Surgical Extraction -5,37%
Thoughtseize -5,85%
Wasteland -11,04%
Polluted Delta -13,98%

III. Q 14 -> IV. Q 14

Winners:

Treasure Cruise 31,85%
Ponder 22,68%
Gitaxian Probe 20,33%
Volcanic Island 20,30%
Polluted Delta 18,66%
Flooded Strand 18,05%
Young Pyromancer 17,47%
Monastery Swiftspear 16,13%
Lightning Bolt 15,17%
Pyroblast 13,56%
Brainstorm 10,46%
Delver of Secrets 10,19%
Dig Through Time 8,33%
Forked Bolt 7,04%
Stoneforge Mystic 6,42%
Daze 6,32%
Force of Will 5,96%
Lotus Petal 5,51%
Tundra 5,10%

Losers:

Hymn to Tourach -5,24%
Goblin Guide -5,59%
Wasteland -5,62%
Ancestral Vision -6,08%
Shardless Agent -6,10%
Underground Sea -6,27%
Misty Rainforest -6,64%
Thoughtseize -6,88%
Liliana of the Veil -7,19%
Abrupt Decay -7,20%
Tropical Island -7,48%
Jace, the Mind Sculptor -7,57%
Tarmogoyf -10,79%
Verdant Catacombs -15,55%
Deathrite Shaman -15,76%

IV. Q 14 -> I. Q 15

Winners:

Dig Through Time 17,72%
Polluted Delta 13,86%
Underground Sea 11,81%
Tarmogoyf 8,64%
Tropical Island 7,85%
Deathrite Shaman 7,57%
Wasteland 6,79%
Force of Will 6,42%
Stifle 5,24%
Brainstorm 5,07%

Losers:

Arid Mesa -5,24%
Lightning Bolt -5,78%
Volcanic Island -7,11%
Gitaxian Probe -7,15%
Young Pyromancer -7,28%
Scalding Tarn -7,76%
Pyroblast -8,60%
Monastery Swiftspear -9,63%
Treasure Cruise -24,51%

I. Q 15 -> II. Q 15

Winners:

Dig Through Time 10,63%
Flooded Strand 7,48%
Snapcaster Mage 6,68%
Young Pyromancer 5,80%
Gitaxian Probe 5,74%
Counterspell 5,54%
Flusterstorm 5,44%
Terminus 5,10%

Losers:

Thoughtseize -5,07%
Delver of Secrets -5,32%
Daze -6,08%
Misty Rainforest -6,55%
Treasure Cruise -7,34%
Wasteland -7,99%

II. Q 15 -> III. Q 15

Winners:

Wasteland 15,01%
Deathrite Shaman 6,94%
Surgical Extraction 5,87%
Abrupt Decay 5,43%
Mox Diamond 5,33%
Trinisphere 5,11%

Losers:

Grafdigger's Cage -5,03%
Polluted Delta -5,32%
Force of Will -5,65%
Volcanic Island -6,24%
Brainstorm -6,56%
Flooded Strand -10,86%

III. Q 15 -> IV. Q 15

Winners:

Verdant Catacombs 6,50%
Stifle 6,02%
Abrupt Decay 5,67%

Losers:

Polluted Delta -5,04%
Trinisphere -5,20%
Preordain -5,28%
Lightning Bolt -5,29%
Flusterstorm -5,36%
Force of Will -5,44%
Brainstorm -5,76%
Volcanic Island -6,17%
Young Pyromancer -6,60%
Pyroblast -6,64%
Gitaxian Probe -9,28%
Ponder -9,30%
Dig Through Time -35,82%

IV. Q 15 -> I. Q 16

Winners:

Ancient Tomb 7,69%
Warping Wail 7,43%
Thought-Knot Seer 7,43%
Eldrazi Temple 7,40%
Reality Smasher 7,40%
Eldrazi Mimic 7,10%
Endless One 6,53%
City of Traitors 6,50%
Dismember 6,07%
Cavern of Souls 6,06%
Eye of Ugin 5,91%
Chalice of the Void 5,17%
Thorn of Amethyst 5,13%

Losers:

Flooded Strand -5,42%
Force of Will -5,72%
Ponder -7,17%

I. Q 16 -> II. Q 16

Winners:

Flooded Strand 6,82%
Ponder 6,40%
Sensei's Divining Top 5,76%
Terminus 5,67%
Swords to Plowshares 5,06%

Losers:

none above treshhold

II. Q 16 -> III. Q 16

Winners:

Surgical Extraction 5,75%
Lightning Bolt 5,02%

Losers:



III. Q 16 -> IV. Q 16

Winners:

Abrupt Decay 6,78%
Deathrite Shaman 5,25%

Losers:

Volcanic Island -5,24%
Lightning Bolt -5,99%
Gitaxian Probe -7,72%

IV. Q 16 -> I. Q 17

Winners:

Ponder 13,54%
Abrupt Decay 11,93%
Brainstorm 11,84%
Force of Will 11,19%
Deathrite Shaman 10,63%
Misty Rainforest 10,58%
Polluted Delta 8,76%
Underground Sea 7,71%
Delver of Secrets 7,03%
Tarmogoyf 6,85%
Daze 6,55%
Leovold, Emissary of Trest 6,15%
Thoughtseize 5,98%
Verdant Catacombs 5,93%
Tropical Island 5,75%
Surgical Extraction 5,53%
Jace, the Mind Sculptor 5,10%
Hymn to Tourach 5,06%

Losers:

Chalice of the Void -5,37%
Matter Reshaper -6,32%
Eye of Ugin -6,46%
Thorn of Amethyst -6,48%
Eldrazi Mimic -6,49%
Endless One -6,61%
Eldrazi Temple -6,73%
Thought-Knot Seer -6,75%
Reality Smasher -6,90%
Ancient Tomb -7,71%
Cavern of Souls -8,23%

so yeah... this is it, lots of things to see there. Sry for the Treshhold, but i had to limit the amount of displayed data somehow. But i think there is a lot of interesting information hidden in there so feel free to discuss

I think there is always a danger at looking at the past with Sunglasses of Urza. (Hehe) But I think magic is unique in the fact that data can actually pin point changes. Do I miss when RUG, High Tide and Maverick fought for top spot? Yea. Do I think that was a better time? Yea, I do.

The issue we face now is that spells where (mostly) strongest in the old boarder, creatures mostly stronger in the new. So if you have been playing long enough, you will have felt the shift. You will have seen the real impact and change. But I caution against some thinking. Thinking that the Eldrazi are a recent addition to the game. The creature type is sure, but the deck is not. "Stompy" as a deck type is older than Legacy. Chalice with Sol lands is not a new phenomenon. Neither is the style of deck that Lands employs with Loam. Stax did that with a card called Crucible of Worlds long ago.

The issue today is not that these things are new, it's that we see them more. In 2004 I did not have the internet, but I had Legacy. In 2009 I had both, but I did not connect the two. The hybridisation of the internet and TCG happened for me much much later. I also feel like it had the same impact on many other people. You can ask my friends from 04, I was Wastelanding them then too. Much like I am now. I just did not have the kind of information and access to cards that I do now. Remember, Tog was a thing because easy access to cards long ago was not simple and he had to play proxy for Jon Finkel.

Time has changed Legacy thanks to technology, information and access. Anyone who bitches about Eldrazi today is just someone who was not getting punched by Pit Dragon yesterday. Anyone who thinks Loam is an issue now likely never had to face down Stax in the mid naughties. Not because these were not options, but because the information was not as board.

Is Legacy better now than it was? No, I don't think so, but I don't think that's totally on new printings and new decks. I think a lot has changed in the last 10 years and Legacy is just one of the things that has ridden that tide with time.

That said, God dam have creatures gotten stronger.

A friend of mine summed it all up recently, I'm paraphrasing but "That the play patterns have become so repetitive that it isn't interesting anymore.". Since Innistrad block there hasn't been anything interesting or different. The same play pattern emerges, only the end game is more absolute because of some of the simian printings. But I have the long view, as Dice alludes to. I remember 30 person 1.5 weeklies with a bunch of decks, people bringing their own takes on things because the edges of the format weren't so absolute. The format was more or less a 75 card deck building experience. Zendikar was like one dry finger. Scars was a fist. By the time we got Innistrad we were elbow deep.

My only solution, as I've repeated a million times is to keep unbanning cards that are clearly worse than cards that are currently ubiquitous and if you run out then ban the ubiquitous cards because something is broken.

It's getting old... just like me.

There's a big hole since the absence of the SCG Sunday Legacy. In their dying days their broad cast got pretty bad when the showcased the same decks it their usual player/contributors.

There isn't the incentive for a lot of the best magic minds out there to come up with new decks and no where to see them in action. So often some of us are left with our glory days and the memories we had of good times.

That being said I really do miss Canadian Thresh and Maverick, Stoneblade...

I think the two comments above me form an interesting contrast. I think part of the phenomenon nedleeds is talking about was caused by the SCG Legacy Opens. The format became more competitive, and the result was that the more diverse but semi-casual format of the past went away. This wasn't everything though; new printings definitely had an effect, but that's just the power creep that's inevitable in a non-rotating format.

It has gotten pretty stale.

Miracles is still the best deck of the format and current "Flavor of the Week" Delver continues to be a thing since 2011.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy

Just look at that. Aside from the usual suspects BS/FoW/Ponder, ~60% of all decks play Abrupt Decay, ~50% play DRS and ~25% of all decks are Delver. Pure fucking cancer right there. I'm so glad I sold out of MTGO again since I couldn't stomach that shit anymore.

Looking at the paper numbers, the numbers are less bad, but then again, looking at the DTB section, paper tournaments are getting more sparse, not to mention coverage. However, who wants to cover a GP located in a goddamn horse barn? :really:

I voted Not Really, but that's not entirely accurate. Amongst the 'official' formats, Legacy is my second favourite after Vintage. The problem(s) with these formats, and why I have semi-sold out of them for 93/94, are the result of years of R&D promoting creatures and planeswalkers as being 'the game'.

As mentioned above, the strategies being employed today are the same as those that have been around for years. The issue now is that the creatures have gotten stupidly good, and as a result the decks have gotten incredibly efficient at winning. The chance of a good comeback story in Legacy has lessened, which I think has at least partially resulted in Control/Prison being so prevalent these days. The strategy now seems to be you stop your opponent from developing a board and then drop a threat that gives them 2-3 draws to find an answer; whereas before, that win condition might have taken 4-5 to win you the game.

The sad thing is that I think we're officially screwed in the sense that we can't fix this without banning a ton of creatures. MaRo has stated numerous times that creatures used to suck compared to spells and he just balanced it out. He chooses to ignore the fact that we used to have things such as fast mana, reanimate, Show & Tell etc to put them into play. Legacy continues to have those things (well, maybe not 'fast' mana like Vintage), but the creatures just do stupid things or are ridiculously efficient, thus resulting in the state of the meta today.

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

I think the two comments above me form an interesting contrast. I think part of the phenomenon nedleeds is talking about was caused by the SCG Legacy Opens. The format became more competitive, and the result was that the more diverse but semi-casual format of the past went away. This wasn't everything though; new printings definitely had an effect, but that's just the power creep that's inevitable in a non-rotating format.

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This is spot on. The problem with Legacy is that the SCG series from ~2011/2012 until 2014 created incentives for lots of low-level (and some high-level) pros and the GP/PTQ grinder set to put serious time into deckbuilding and testing for Legacy. These are people who aren't interested in being different, or trying to modify something they saw do well, or even necessarily in deckbuilding - they want to win, and they need pretty compelling reasons to deviate from established decks and established lists. A few years from now the waters will likely have been muddied enough by new printings that we'll end up back at some semblance of pre-SCG Legacy, but the bar for entering Legacy's top tier will be higher than it 'should be' given the semi-competitive nature the format is growing in.

Interesting that as of right now, It's Great is the leader, but seemingly none of the people chimed in to say why, whereas people who said not really said why they feel the way that they do. I would be interested to see what people see in this meta that we currently have that makes it so great to them.

My enjoyment of Legacy is negatively correlated with the presence of Eldrazi. I think it's good right now, but certainly nowhere near as it was before BFZ/OGW.

I still enjoy the format but rising prices and falling support have had a homogenizing effect there's not much incentive to brew and most players have adopted a grinder mentality. I mean if your only going to own one deck might as well be Miracles or Delver or whatever combo deck suits your fancy.

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Originally Posted by JBlaze

I still enjoy the format but rising prices and falling support have had a homogenizing effect there's not much incentive to brew and most players have adopted a grinder mentality. I mean if your only going to own one deck might as well be Miracles or Delver or whatever combo deck suits your fancy.

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This pretty much spot on. The sheer efficiency of what the format has become with decks being 8-12 cantrips with different win conditions has pretty much pushed out any room to brew.

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Originally Posted by btm10

This is spot on. The problem with Legacy is that the SCG series from ~2011/2012 until 2014 created incentives for lots of low-level (and some high-level) pros and the GP/PTQ grinder set to put serious time into deckbuilding and testing for Legacy. These are people who aren't interested in being different, or trying to modify something they saw do well, or even necessarily in deckbuilding - they want to win, and they need pretty compelling reasons to deviate from established decks and established lists. A few years from now the waters will likely have been muddied enough by new printings that we'll end up back at some semblance of pre-SCG Legacy, but the bar for entering Legacy's top tier will be higher than it 'should be' given the semi-competitive nature the format is growing in.

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Of course the format gets solved faster if more people play it more. However, 2011/12 was the time of Innistrad block that altered the format forever to the worse - Delver, Griselbrand and Terminus haunt the format to this very day and neither of them encourage good game play in their own ways.

And looking at the data above, DRS and AD from RTR (also 2012) are part of the problem as well.

WotC's neglect of the format brought this upon us:
- Miracles has been the top deck for years, but was left alone, despite buff after buff after buff. So people adapted by punching through Counterbalance with AD, the only 100% reliable answer to it.
- Cantrips have been left untouched, despite being too good. So those nonblue decks who can afford to do so retaliate with Chalice to punish them for that.
- Being sick and tired to put up with Counterbalance and Chalice, more cantrip decks picked up DRS (for great consisteny and utility) and AD to retaliate against CotV,CB and the overall way too counter-heavy meta to have a reliable, highly flexible kill spell.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

This pretty much spot on. The sheer efficiency of what the format has become with decks being 8-12 cantrips with different win conditions has pretty much pushed out any room to brew.

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That's true now, but I suspect that it will become less true as time goes on. The incentives to build the most streamlined deck possible will go away as the grinders leave the format, and once the meta becomes more loosely defined you end up with a lot more room to brew and focus on building a deck that's extremely powerful rather than on minimizing the rate at which your deck loses to itself/variance (which is a key reason why Delver and Miracles put up proportionally more top 8s in 15 round events than they do in local events)

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Originally Posted by Barook

Of course the format gets solved faster if more people play it more. However, 2011/12 was the time of Innistrad block that altered the format forever to the worse - Delver, Griselbrand and Terminus haunt the format to this very day and neither of them encourage good game play in their own ways.
And looking at the data above, DRS and AD from RTR (also 2012) are part of the problem as well.

WotC's neglect of the format brought this upon us:
- Miracles has been the top deck for years, but was left alone, despite buff after buff after buff. So people adapted by punching through Counterbalance with AD, the only 100% reliable answer to it.
- Cantrips have been left untouched, despite being too good. So those nonblue decks who can afford to do so retaliate with Chalice to punish them for that.
- Being sick and tired to put up with Counterbalance and Chalice, more cantrip decks picked up DRS (for great consisteny and utility) and AD to retaliate against CotV,CB and the overall way too counter-heavy meta to have a reliable, highly flexible kill spell.

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I think you're focusing way too much on specific cards that bother you rather than the players who are playing them. Innistrad block could have been a dud and it wouldn't have impacted the rate at which the format evolved once someone like SCG started aggressively promoting it. The top decks that arose then are 'sticky' for reasons that go beyond simply how powerful some cards are; the cost of key staples leads to memory effects that slow the rate at which people adapt to major changes, and WotC has (likely) decided that it's better to try to influence Legacy through targeted printings rather than through an aggressive ban list policy, which is likely correct given the cost of Duals and their experience with Modern.

The format is fine, the problem is, there aren't many new things happening. Sure, someone may have some spicy brew, but it's almost assuredly something that has been done before and is simply being revisited. Everything has been done and wizards isn't printing cards that are both good enough and interesting enough to better the format.

Eldrazi was the most "different" thing to happen but it isn't exactly attacking the format in a way that hasn't been done before (or at least, in a dramatically new fashion)

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Originally Posted by Teluin

The chance of a good comeback story in Legacy has lessened

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This right here.

It's still hilarious to me that Delver has become the good-guy of the format, aka the only deck that can actually have a comeback that is enjoyable. Even then, sometimes it just topdecks a True Name and any semblance of an interesting game is thrown under the bus.

What's the rest of the format doing?
- blind Terminus/Entreat off the top and obliterate your opponent
- blind draw the piece you are missing whether it's Emrakul/Grisel/Show/Sneak to obliterate your opponent
- Topdeck anything relevant in Storm or just obliterate you on turn 1
- Topdeck Sanctum Prelate or find it with Recruiter and make your opponent's 4 card hand a 0 card hand without even trying or having to remember triggers.
- t1chalicet2tkst3smasherlolgg or just topdeck multiple smashers in a row.

Fuck I miss the Maverick v Canadian v High Tide v Storm (pre PiF) v Goblins v literally anything sensible meta-game. I even miss when people thought Goyf should be banned because it was "too powerful for 2 mana."

The current meta just feels really un-interactive and it's getting old now. I don't think it's horrible like Modern is, but if I didn't own blue dual's I probably wouldn't bother at this stage. Even DnT, a deck I loved 7 months ago has become so boring and over-powered that I can't bring myself to play it, even with Foil MM Ports separating me from all the plebs who picked it up 2 weeks ago because you can buy it with 2 centrelink payments now.

The Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time era had a streamlining effect on the format in that it made people realize how powerful the consistency of the blue cantrip shell really was.

I feel bad for all the people who started playing eternal after Scars. They don't even know any better.

I think a big problem for alot of people on here is that they play too much MtGO or against too many ubercompetitive opponents who play the same old ____ every game because everyone says it's good. I think players of legacy should start playing different decks, decks that aren't considered top tier although I'd argue that alot of top tier decks aren't really as good as people think they are and seem to win alot of competitive tournaments mainly because of the illusion that they're tier 1 causing more people to play them. If you look at the established section of this forum you will see many decks that aren't played very much in the "competitive" tournaments, decks like Enchantress, Dragon Stompy, Nic Fit, Maverick, High Tide, Pox, MUD, Jund, Burn, Merfolk and others. I think that if people opened up to the immense variety of decks in Legacy and started playing them, the format would get alot better. Now personally for me, I am lucky enough to play in an environment where people don't care about playing the decks that are deemed competitive and play what they enjoy, hence there is tremendous variety every friday night I go to play. Obviously if you play too much against the same decks you are going to get burned out of the format, but ideally, legacy can be as diverse as your playgroup wants(or, admittedly, can afford) it to be. The only problem I have with legacy right now is the lack of unbans which is another story...

OP should clarify the context. What kind of state, the financial state or the meta-game state? I would imagine OP's referring to the meta, not the reserved-list availability aspect of Legacy.

I picked "it's ok"

I don't feel that excited about Legacy at the moment. Feels like "tiers" are sort of established, there's still room for 20ish random decks to spike an event. Nothing has really shaken things up like the Delve cards did. I imagine Fatal Push will put up some results and the recent-ish printings of Leovold, Recruiter/Prelate, Nissa (and probably a few others I'm not thinking of) have boosted some established decks. I'm happy enough playing in this metagame, but would not be opposed to seeing some shake ups.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

OP should clarify the context. What kind of state, the financial state or the meta-game state? I would imagine OP's referring to the meta, not the reserved-list availability aspect of Legacy.

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While I get what you're saying, those two factors are inextricably linked.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I picked "it's ok"

I don't feel that excited about Legacy at the moment. Feels like "tiers" are sort of established, there's still room for 20ish random decks to spike an event. Nothing has really shaken things up like the Delve cards did. I imagine Fatal Push will put up some results and the recent-ish printings of Leovold, Recruiter/Prelate, Nissa (and probably a few others I'm not thinking of) have boosted some established decks. I'm happy enough playing in this metagame, but would not be opposed to seeing some shake ups.

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I basically share this feeling. I'd be up for just about any nonland card getting banned or unbanned just to shake the meta up, but I have a lot of advantages over other players that allow me to change decks easily if something happens to one that I like.

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Originally Posted by JBlaze

The Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time era had a streamlining effect on the format in that it made people realize how powerful the consistency of the blue cantrip shell really was.

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I agree with this. The delve cards were when I started disliking the format for this exact reason. It homogenized decks far too much.

It feels stale to me. Ok, but stale. The "new" Leovold deck doesn't really seem that different, despite using 2 of a new card.

I was watching Romariovidal on twitch last night, having a hilarious time playing Legacy Birds (this list). A friend on the stream mentioned how inbred the meta seems, and legacy in general. This deck with crappy removal, anthems, and tokens, seemed like a breath of fresh air and I stayed up for multiple hours despite tiredness and a headache because of how great it was. Even went 6-1 in league matches with it before he called it a night.

I wish there was an "it's complicated" option. I'd rather play Legacy than any other format or no magic at all, and I value getting a midweek reprieve from work and stuff more than I really care about winning.

But there really is nothing like playing at big, competitive tournaments, and for Legacy right now it just seems like your legitimate options for doing well at one are very narrow.

I agree with much of what's been said in this thread. This format desperately needs a major banned list update, multiple cards going on and off. Deckbuilding is too on rails at the moment and I think that's what's bothering people the most.

I also picked "It's ok".

The period between 2009-2012 was my favorite because things were pretty constantly changing, and a very wide range of fair decks were possible (even outside of the "blue shell"). Since 2013, the developments have been relatively few and far between. We had the delve era and the onset of eldrazi, a couple new combo decks popped up, but mostly the same cast.

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Originally Posted by maharis

I wish there was an "it's complicated" option. I'd rather play Legacy than any other format or no magic at all, and I value getting a midweek reprieve from work and stuff more than I really care about winning.

But there really is nothing like playing at big, competitive tournaments, and for Legacy right now it just seems like your legitimate options for doing well at one are very narrow.

I agree with much of what's been said in this thread. This format desperately needs a major banned list update, multiple cards going on and off. Deckbuilding is too on rails at the moment and I think that's what's bothering people the most.

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This sums up my feelings completely. I'm always happy to go play Thursday night Legacy, and prefer it to every other format, but I'd like to see some shakeups via bannings, unbannings, and new printings (as long as those printings aren't more prisony creatures like Sanctum Prelate or Leovold).

Feel free to yell at me for this, but if you dislike creature power creep and miss diversity and brews, you should try out Pauper. It has many of the things people seem to look for in Legacy plus it doesn't have that stupid 1k USD pricetag for every deck.

Survival of the Fittest banned while Show and Tell is not just force me to say "it's okay". I think Survival was the favourite deck for many people and banning non-blue power cards is just plain stupid while keeping blue unharmed.

I voted "It's okay". It's still the coolest format, but they did their sweet best to cock it up. I mean: printing Emrakul, Delver, Treasure Cruise and Griselbrand... Really? It didn't take a genius to see that those were going to be a problem. And just when they printed a solution for a format that was getting too fast and overpowered, they banned it because eveybody was playing it. Yeah, what did you expect? The card didn't cost mana to cast, so everybody actually could play it. Their second reason was even worse: there were even more decks playing blue than before the printing of Misstep. But they never gave the format time to adapt to that fact. Besides, they of course completely ignored the fact that Delver was a much bigger reason for the abundance of blue in that time.

After the Alara block, only one good thing happened in Legacy: the printing of Liliana of the Veil. Everything else just made things worse.

The format it's quite enjoyable at the moment. You have a good amount of choice between decks and the games are quite fun. Sure, you might smash into a T1 kill or a chalice, but it's part of the game. To be fair, I'm enjoying it that much that I've finally dumped my modern deck forever.

Enviado desde mi Moto G (4) mediante Tapatalk

I feel like Legacy has become less interactive and therefore less fun.

Nowadays there are so many strategies, which are hard to stop or at least to interact with or just have the "I win"-button.

Turn 2: Show and Tell, Emrakul
Recurring Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths
Turn 1: Reanimate, Griselbrand
Dredge
Elves Combo

There are still the slower fair/good stuff decks, but I feel their number has decreased.

I miss the days when Survival was still legal.... Goblins, Landstill, High Tide, Survival, Threshold, Zoo. When you played
decks which actually led you play the game at least for a few turns (except Belcher) and relatively slowly advanced to the win, instead of winning in one attack phase with Emrakul or Marit Lage in the early turns.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I voted "It's okay". It's still the coolest format, but they did their sweet best to cock it up. I mean: printing Emrakul, Delver, Treasure Cruise and Griselbrand... Really? It didn't take a genius to see that those were going to be a problem. And just when they printed a solution for a format that was getting too fast and overpowered, they banned it because eveybody was playing it. Yeah, what did you expect? The card didn't cost mana to cast, so everybody actually could play it. Their second reason was even worse: there were even more decks playing blue than before the printing of Misstep. But they never gave the format time to adapt to that fact. Besides, they of course completely ignored the fact that Delver was a much bigger reason for the abundance of blue in that time.

After the Alara block, only one good thing happened in Legacy: the printing of Liliana of the Veil. Everything else just made things worse.

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I never played legacy with misstep, but I've played it in vintage. It's fucking miserable.

The format is going downhill since Innistrad.

Just look what happened there and afterwards: Delver, DRS, Terminus, Entreat, TNN, Griselbrand, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Decay, Eldrazi, snapcaster mage, etc.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The format is going downhill since Innistrad.

Just look what happened there and afterwards: Delver, DRS, Terminus, Entreat, TNN, Griselbrand, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Decay, Eldrazi, snapcaster mage, etc.

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QFT!

Or let's just start one set before, New Phyrexia. Phyrexian Mana was a mistake as well.

i listed that the format is great. there's still a variety of decks to play and each time i go to a tournament, i am still surprised at the diversity in my matchups. counterbalance/abrupt decay is generally a problem for me, but other than that i'm quite happy with the format.

i'm also glad that there are other ways to deal with these cards/decks! i'm not a delver, miracles, s&t or eldrazi player out of spite.

i think just the fact that there are this many decks that you can show up with is great, even if many of them are blue based. i've played in many tournaments and there are many times where i dodge a lot of the mainstream decks and play vs tier 2 decks all day long.

i'm guessing this depends on how spikey your local meta is. i can see having a different opinion if i showed up each week and there were 3 miracles players out of 8.

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

Feel free to yell at me for this, but if you dislike creature power creep and miss diversity and brews, you should try out Pauper. It has many of the things people seem to look for in Legacy plus it doesn't have that stupid 1k USD pricetag for every deck.

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Been playing Pauper a lot lately and it's fun as hell. The only thing I miss is being able to play an actually good combo deck since they all seem to accrue insane amounts of whining and get banned.

But apart from that, it's really fun. There's no cantrip cartel, you actually get to play. The format's a ton about eking out value, playing interactive magic without humongous haymakers or Planeswalkers and coming out ahead. Plus how can I lie, Capsize-locking people after drowning them in hardcast Mulldrifters is as fun as it is evil.

Seriously. It's a format where Mulldrifter is the best card that's gotten away with murder and is somehow still legal. That can't be an entirely bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

After the Alara block, only one good thing happened in Legacy: the printing of Liliana of the Veil. Everything else just made things worse.

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As an Elves player, I liked the printing of Deathrite and Decay.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I would be interested to see what people see in this meta that we currently have that makes it so great to them.

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First off, I was not a big fan of the Thresh, Maverick, Stoneblade era. The meta was too heavy with fair decks; and too many of those decks were just good-stuff.

I like Legacy now because it feels more diverse (to me). Looking at our DTB, we have:

• One fast combo deck
• One classic "hard control" deck
• One midrange value deck
• One big-mana stompy deck
• One aggressive tempo deck
• One weenie-prison deck.

We have six decks with radically different play-styles, each one running a distintive set of threats and answers. Looking back, it's hard to find another time when the top decks were this different in terms of play-styles, threats, and answers.

Even looking to the next tier, the second best decks include UB Reanimator, Sneak Show, Pyromancer, Lands, Elves, Aggro Loam, Burn, and maybe a couple others? These decks add a lot of variety too.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

The format is fine, the problem is, there aren't many new things happening. Sure, someone may have some spicy brew, but it's almost assuredly something that has been done before and is simply being revisited. Everything has been done and wizards isn't printing cards that are both good enough and interesting enough to better the format.

Eldrazi was the most "different" thing to happen but it isn't exactly attacking the format in a way that hasn't been done before (or at least, in a dramatically new fashion)

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I have to disagree. Eldrazi is quite a bit different than MUD; but more importantly the meta now has a tier one Stompy deck, which is quite a big difference.

Then there is the new Reanimator shell. Two new tier-one decks in a single year seems like a lot to me.

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Originally Posted by janchu88

and here just my 2 cents on the topic:
In my specific case i think it began with the Eldrazi entering the arena, with tons of chalice decks, Loam-lock decks, Miracles still at the top and so on i think the Meta got "controllier" than before and lots of the more dynamic decks disappered. Its not as if i wasnt able to beat those strategies, but many of the currently well doing decks feel to me as if if they were just trying to slam as many lock pieces as possible and hope that they eventually will get there. The latest episode in the game of hatebears was adding Leovold to BUG... and this is the only thing that really changed over the course of recent legacy history, hatebears and stompy decks were added, thats it

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Funny, but I feel the opposite! If anything, the control decks are more aggressive now than in the earlier days.

Used to be decks like Enchantress, Pox, or Geddon Stax were a lot more competitive. But those creature decks keep getting better and better, while pure prison is left in their dust! Nowadays the best "prison" decks need to be loaded with speedy threats (D&T or Eldrazi), or include a fast combo which can end a game out of nowhere (Lands).

That said the format is still incredibly fun and diverse - at least from the perspective of a Lands player where I find great strategic variety from one match to the next. Also I play a lot of RUG Lands - and while it doesn't put up significant numbers I find the deck powerful, well positioned, and (for the most part) a hard-control prison deck.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I have to disagree. Eldrazi is quite a bit different than MUD; but more importantly the meta now has a tier one Stompy deck, which is quite a big difference.

Then there is the new Reanimator shell. Two new tier-one decks in a single year seems like a lot to me.

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Eh, both can be boiled down to "play lock piece, beat face", and while MUD can go for a more prison oriented game, they play out similarly.

Aggressive Griselbrand with disruption, I've seen that a couple of times.

Do agree people are looking at 2012 with rose colored glasses, remember RUG playing Counterbalance as the sideboard plan for the mirror?

Legacy today is very Xerox like in nature. I expect to see the same thing happening from the same cards who have all taken up a larger and larger meta share. Am I looking at the past with Sunglasses of Urza? No, I don't feel like I am.