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This thread is for speculating about the new Legacy metagame following the April 24, 2017 banning of Sensei’s Divining Top.
I'll get it started off. I think many people will try playing their pet decks that were less or non viable in a Miracles meta, such as Maverick.
I also believe Elves is going to become a DTB again; every deck is going to need a plan for beating Elves.
Elves and all those speculative fair decks will be good fodder for Lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
D&T maybe switches more to Imperial Taxes?
Affinity has a reason to exist again; it is ready and able to shit all over fair decks, and can run chalice. Not sure if better than eldrazi of course :tongue:
I wouldn't be surprised if a UWx mentor or stoneblade list got popular in the wake of miracles departure. Card availability is a real thing for legacy so the people that don't ragequit or swap decks have to go somewhere.
Dude - I wish!Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
Obviously there are huge ripple effects from Top that we won't fully understand for some time.
I'm sleeving up Maverick again. I think Storm will probably pick up, and like you mentioned, Elves. With that in mind, I'll probably hedge on more Zealous Persecutions, Null Rods, maybe an Engineered Plague, and some extra discard.
It'll be interesting.... I don't know how it will pan out. I want to say there will be more midrange-control, but that's already the direction the format was heading in with Miracles. I don't think there is another pure-control deck that will fill the void.
The collateral damage is difficult to account for as well. There are decks that are affected aside from Miracles. Painter, Nic Fit, fucking ANT.... They're all losing a valuable tool, but the end of Miracles is a much bigger format change overall.
Some kind of Stoneblade becomes a deck again. Lots of other decks people were previously embarassed for holding on to become viable tier2 strategies again.
There will be little reason not to play BGxx or BUGx decks now. They performed decently against Miracles as well as the rest of the metagame, and they're not going to lose to any of the jank that will come out because of the Miracles ban.
Says who? Stoneblade and mentor decks could totally be built to compete with pile, especially if they don't have to worry about terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Modern players who started playing legacy because of how wotc handles modern.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
I think everyone has gathered that UBx is going to be the premier archetype. I think the most interesting thing about this change is that you are less forced to run decay now that counterbalance is no longer a real card. Obviously the decks that get hit the most are decks that are running top or ones that prey on miracles. SFM is a card again in decks that aren't d&t.
Even more reason to watch the Legacy Premier League this season. We're having players resubmit new decklists!
Whoa, will week one standings remain?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I was expecting the League to continue under the old rules/banlist, but in this light it seems indeed exciting to see what decks these guys will brew up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
People keep talking so much shit about how bad modern is but it's honestly the best it's been in years and was more fun for me to play than workshop vs mentor vintage. People just get so pissy about bans that they can't think straight. I'm confident that legacy will be more fun going forward even if it's sad that miracles got hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
BUGx decks (Food Chain, Shardless, 4C Control, Noble Duke), Deathblade decks (Bant, Esper), combo decks (Elves, Show & Tell, Reanimator), and Delver decks (Grixis, 4C, BUG) will be most popular at first.
Price of Progress decks (UR Delver, Burn) are absolutely absurd too and may take a month or so to catch on, but I could see UR Delver being a top deck in the format especially if people start shaving an Abrupt Decay or two without Counterbalance being an issue.
BWx Stoneblade decks, maybe even Punishing Jund, might start getting played again just because Deathrite -> Hymn -> Liliana is actually quite good in this format, but they won't be Tier One by any means, just more viable strategies.
Then, people will realize that Deathrite Shaman is far more miserable of a card than Sensei's Top ever was and he'll be banned and we'll be having this same discussion again six months from now.
There are many answers to drs. Cb and top on the other hand have like 4 things to answer itQuote:
Originally Posted by NeckBird
I do agree with this, but one of those answers is playing Deathrite Shaman before your opponent. At a certain point people are going to come to the conclusion that the best way to beat Deathrite Shaman is just playing your own (assuming your playing a fair deck).Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
At first:
Less Miracles means less Moat which means more Eldrazi. Also no Counter-Top means less reason to be forced to run Decay so less BUGx lists. No more Terminus means more Aggro.
Later:
DRS and Decay are still fantastic so BUGx lists will return. But I think Eldrazi and Aggro will also remain strong.
Here is the problem I see:Quote:
Originally Posted by T-101
- Maverick was pushed out by Jund having a similar game but being generally better.
- Jund was pushed out by TNN Blade decks - about to explode again.
- Shardless is still a better version of Jund - especially against TNN or combo (counters).
- Aggro Loam is still a better KotR midrange deck on account of CotV against combo and cantrip decks.
I don't think Miracles has been what's holding Maverick down.
I'm no expert though (and I don't personally play midrange). I could very well be wrong. Also this is Legacy, where a tier two deck isn't that much worse than a tier one deck (the death of Miracles probably narrows this gap further). Best of luck!
4 DRS
3-4 SCM
4 TNN
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland
2 Leovold
3-4 Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay
The next tier 1 deck imo.
I think the DRS and CB comparison is a good one. There's only like Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, and Engineered Explosives for cards that can cleanly and reliably answer CB, otherwise you're completely locked out of the game. DRS is a 1/2 elf.
I think the existing decks (BUG, Eldrazi, ANT, SNT) will grow in the meta share. Newly enabled decks like Maverick and BUG Delver can come out of the woodwork, with other fast combo like Turbo Depths emerging soon.
A few Ux control decks will come out to take Miracle's control share, along with reinvigorated aggro (if any...Zoo?), but I think that will take some time to develop and mature. Until then, fast combo and midrange.
Regardless of what happens it should be interesting. I guess this means that GP Vegas is going to be our version of the pro tour huh?
I think we'll see a shift away from the slower midrange decks that have been getting popular lately. In the interim, I think we'll see aggressive decks like Burn, UR Delver, and Ru Sligh punishing these 3-4 color durdly midrange decks.
I see Stoneblade getting more popular again, as well as Elves. I don't think decks like Zoo are coming back... those decks were pushed out by other archetypes, way before Miracles started dominating.
I think we'll settle back into a Delver infested meta long-term, with some midrange value decks that are good against Delver, and various Combo that punishes the midrange decks.
As a Tezz player, I for one am a HUGE FAN of fewer Maindeck Decays!Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
People talk 'shit' about Modern because until today it was the format where you could spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on cards to play a deck only to have it disappear overnight because, reasons. WotC has clearly spent years trying to force it to follow the NWO philosophy and has wielded bans accordingly. If you are doing something they don't like and it gets popular, you are screwed. Forget allowing players to adapt strategies, forget stuff like getting Judges to actually act on Slow Play, just ban it and move on. Because new players might get their fee-fees hurt if they don't have fun watching other people play.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
I don't think you will see fewer midrange BUG-ish lists just because Decay isn't vital now - how often were they siding it out against non-Miracles lists? I think more people will force aggro because the Kird Ape Brigade are stubborn, but they are going to get DESTROYED by Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Maverick, or multiple dedicated Aggo archetypes, or bad creatures in general. People seem to forget or just choose to ignore that what killed Maverick/Zoo was that Delver was a strictly better aggro creature in a color that allowed you to run Brainstorms. Being able to Spell Pierce in your Legacy Aggro deck >>> running random idiots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Yup. Miracles players (those that don't straight-up ragequit) will slot into Stoneblade much easier than some kind of Standstill nonsense. And Delver, Delver, DELVER.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
The two bans that Modern had most recently belong to two of the currently most played decks: Dredge and Death's Shadow. Infect took a beating, yes, but that is more because of the presence of Death's Shadow than the absence of Gitaxian Probe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
Also I'm jumping into this thread to say: I'm starting to play Legacy because of this change. This could be good or bad news, but in my anecdotal experience, I think that Legacy veterans have blinders on that keep them from seeing how many people weren't interested in their format because of CounterTop and Terminus.
BUG-colors, Delver, various Combo, and Blood Moon. Something like that...
Every single time this has happened the majority of the value of the deck is there even after the bans. Individual cards lose some value but the overall deck is going to be worth basically the same as it was before. Just like every modern deck that's been banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
You don't know what NWO is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
I think judges definitely dropped the ball for years when it came to top bullshit but at the end of the day miracles determined the successful decks while being a drag on everything having to do with format. Complaining about fee-fees in this kind of rant is an especially hilarious lack of self awareness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
I disagree with this. If TNN returns en force, then eldrazi is gonna have a huge issue. Plus eldrazi lost one of its most favorable matchups. I think red stompy is well positioned however. It still runs chalice but has access to t1 blood moon or magus, which is gonna wreck house against all the delver/bug/bantblade decks that rely on greedy mana bases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
MaRo's NWO philosophy is presented under the guise of reducing 'Complexity' of the game and lessening the amount of information that a player is expected to keep track of at any given time when making decisions. The biggest issue is straight-up quoted in the article:
WotC redistributed whatever complexity budget they allowed for a given cardspace based on the presentation to beginners. When WotC started designing expansion sets with an eye towards new-player acquisition instead of the old methodology of having separate product for introduction and for experienced play, they hamstrung themselves by worrying how new players would respond to cards at certain rarities instead of what the value of the design of the set was as a whole. Players who can just buy the cards they want to play and who aren't reliant on getting them out of the 2-3 packs a week that WotC is catering retail product to now have become 2nd class citizens because they aren't customers anymore, they are advertising for the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by BadGameDesigner
From the people who brought you Mythic rarity comes game design by market research. Resource denial (Land D) and Draw-go control are 'unfun' for players who don't understand that level of complexity in game design, regardless of how effective they are within the context of actual gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by BadGameDesigner
Where you see a shadowy cabal bent on taking the fun out of magic I see a limited design principle that makes commons less complex and has zero effect on legacy B&R announcements. You can scapegoat Maro all you want but you are reaching when blaming NWO for the top ban. Like that article mentioned at every possible chance, NWO is about set design, not B&R methodology which we know very little concrete about.
Are Counterbalance and Terminus left for dead in the wake of the top ban or could they still be playable with other cards?
For example Mirri's Guile? While it doesn't function like top (either in terms of instantly rearranging to counter, or instantly drawing your wrath) it can set up some roadblocks for people to play around a counterbalance and still ensure that your wraths are only 1 mana. If you don't want to play green, perhaps Soothsaying? It is not as mana efficient and also can't draw a card, but it does pitch to FOW.
AKA, while some are celebrating the death of Miracles, and while others are mourning its demise, is their a hope or fear for miracles to be reconstructed - weaker, perhaps much much weaker - but still alive? Or at least some of it's famous interactions like the cheap wrath and angels or counter-top(lite).
The Miracles could see play in a fringe tier 2 or worse Scroll Rack / Land Tax type of Wx control deck, but Counterbalance is pretty much worthless now.
Scroll Rack can set your library in order, even with cards from hand. Can't draw a card itself, but since it doesn't actually draw cards, you can use it on your opponent's turn and then draw a miracle with some other effect. Fun to use alongside Land Tax to dig 8+ cards at a time. I wouldn't consider it with Counterbalance though.
UW control will exist in some form or another, be it stoneblade/landstill/new miracles, and the cards will be tested in whatever new shell emerges.
Is counterbalance good when it is not a variable Chalice of the Void? Probably not, but it was never meant to completely lock down a format.
Will terminus be played when it isn't always 1 mana and at instant speed? Probably not, but it was supposed to be a big deal when a miracle happened, not an every time occurance. I have more hope for terminus, as brainstorm is still super strong and wraths fir 1 are good no matter when you play them. You will just be a little safer on your own turn.
4 Brainstorm and X Jace... seems like Terminus is a perfectly fine two-of in control decks. You still have swords-snap-swords and other removal/wraths.
Unban Drain and Terminus gets a lot better.
IMO Terminus is still worth running, although possibly not as a full set. Guarantee it will still see play in control decks, because it the effect is just so much more powerful than any other sweeper. Those decks will still have access to Brainstorm/Jace/Ponder, and Scroll Rack, like others are mentioning.
Basically, the metagame lost 2 or 3 decks, and nothing new will take their place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I don't see a 'Shadowy Cabal bent on taking the fun out of Magic.' I see a series of banning with thematically inconsistent justification even within the same Announcement. 'Top has been a problem for years, so we're killing it because we don't want to police slow play in Vegas. Also you'd better stop making Standard boring or we'll ban something else!' Forsythe literally calls out the primary action for BnR consideration being player feedback on his Twitter, but that's not enough to do something about Standard right now? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the absolutely terrible optics that would come from consecutive Standard bannings, because letting something juiced through every once in a while is fine, but acknowledging that they can't seem to control the format like they would prefer to is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
In the last year, just for Standard, they've acknowledged that their aggressive rotation plan was terrible, they've had to ban multiple cards from different decks, and they are dealing with an upset playerbase calling for bans *AGAIN*. The last time they couldn't control something like this was in 2011 with JTMS and Stoneforge. It's been low-hanging fruit for years to kvetch about the way they manage Modern - when they fuck up Standard this badly, it raises concerns that maybe someone in charge doesn't know what they are doing. If they could kindly keep their mitts off the actual Eternal formats until they can figure out what's going wrong, it would raise less worry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_VLFZhfrBQ
Legacy 2012, play proactive combos~!