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https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...hrite-is-next/
So hypothetically, if the little green guy hits 50% of the meta, but it's not one deck. How would you guys feel?
I don't think it's inconsistent to leave Brainstorm (70%) and ban Deathrite because Brainstorm enables far more strategic diversity, whereas Deathrite makes games revolve around him, and he's just plainly too undercosted.
I'd like to see how the meta shakes out before I make a decision about this. Your points are totally reasonable, but I can imagine a situation where Lands and Reanimator are only held in check by Deathrite or running Vintage-esque levels of Graveyard hate, and then a ban becomes much less likely unless they're ok with knock-on bans.
I'm on record saying that I wouldn't mind seeing DRS banned. However I just commissed my new logo and I have plans for it to include DRS :eek:
I mean, that is plausible, but I don't think this is a deterministic outcome of the Top ban.
Deathrite is really good. In fact, he is extremely good. Remember when people realized how good Tarmogoyf was? People were putting it in every deck. I think this is another case of that. People were even discussing banning Tarmogoyf at a point. I think we can look back at that and realize it was a bit silly.
Now, Deathrite is better than 'Goyf, sure, but I think the same principles apply. It's a creature, it doesn't have some crazy protection or anything. I think the format will adjust, more 'yard hate in the form of more Rest In Peace and other effective coutermeasures (Phyrexian Rovoker, etc.) will pick up as well. Things will sort themselves out. Decks that can prey on BUG decks, like Death and Taxes, UR Burn, and so on will pick up and Deathrite (while good in these matchups) won't really save them there. People will realize there are reasons not to run him and we'll find an equilibrium.
It'll take some time, but I am not buying the doom and gloom.
It really wouldn't shock me if DRS took a bullet, but I would hard pressed to call anything right now. The meta is about to shift and shift big. I am not sure this is the moment when such predictions are truly able to be made.
At this point I think it's prudent to let the chips fall, then make calls on what we see.
The banned SDT, not Brainstorm.
Seems like - as has always been the case - they react to powerful decks, not powerful but versatile cards. Even with Treasure Cruise the sited reason was Patriot Delver (though more accurately should have been sited as a conglomerate of Patriot plus U/R Delver).
I can't see BUG decks being so abundant (and Jund or Maverick will not even be tier-one). Too many things to eat them.
I suppose it depends on how much of the Top decision was data based vs public outcry based. If they are listening to the angry mob, anything could happen.
Let's be bluntly honest, Wizards is not listening to anyone but a balding man who use to work for them. Outside of that I don't think they really do. If they listened to us (As a whole) something would have happened long ago and there would be at lest three less cards on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Saying "We hear you" after not doing anything for years is PR spin. The truth is likely closer to "Ok so the data for the last 6 GPs was highly slanted in one direction... And hey, something about online communities complaints, even though we haven't paid attention to that outside of the VSL..." It's fine that that's what got them to act, but they could at lest be honest about it and say: "We know you have all been asking for some changes for years, but Randy doesn't play your format, so shut up and sit in the corner."
DRS is first and foremost a mana dork.
Sure it does other things, but the decks listed in that article could replace them with hierarchs or birds without losing a significant amount of power.
The alternatives for SDT are far worse then the ones for DRS, can't really compare it. Unsure why anyone would say "DRS ties decks together" when it can be replaced by at least 2 cards while keeping the decks in great shape.
Mana dorks will always be popular for obvious reasons, DRS is the best generic manadork, hence its popularity. It isn't always the best dork for a specific deck though (infect), so the balance is probably fine. Its not part of any fancy 2-card combo, it just gets used for what most people like to have, mana.
DRS before Brainstorm? Article writers with their own agendas or just some generally acceptable Brainstorm bias?
As people have pointed out several times Brainstorm has far better numbers than DRS and for far longer time.
For the record, I'm not saying both are not stupid good and yes to a degree an autoinclude and I wouldn't shed a tier if both of them got the axe, but I'm not amused why people (in general, not only the author of this rather short article) are already calling for DRS ban while allowing all blue decks dominance due to Brainstorm.
I don't want this to derail into yet another Brainstorm thread, but I don't see articles and statements like this ("DRS is next") to be doing any good to Legacy either so.. you know, try to think with your own brains first before buying into sensationalism "DRS is next". I'm expecting next article to be titled "Only 1% of players know this secret". :wink:
I think you vastly underrate the subtle power of Deathrite. Being cast off of an underground sea is just the first way that it is far better because you don't have to run a pile of forests to cast your mana dorksQuote:
Originally Posted by s&s
I don't see the alarmism about a gattling gun of bannings about to be unleashed on Legacy, like they did with Modern. If you don't count the broken Treasure Cruise and DTT, Top is the first serious ban since what, Survival? And Survival only really came to sudden power with the release of Vengevine if I'm not mistaken, so that was a reactive banning as well within months. I'm not fully informed on that so if I'm mistaken please correct. Past that...?
Top got it's broken counterpart in Terminus and began dominating the format since 2012. Undisputed #1 deck by data for a solid year, maybe 2 years.
A single deck got Top banned because it had a warping stranglehold on the format and influenced Wizards design changes since 2012. I doubt DRS (or anything else except maybe, maybe Show and Tell) will be touched for a long, long time.
It's a 1/2 creature that's dependent on the graveyard. There's thousands of answers for that and several natural predators in the format - many of which just got unshackled because Miracles is gone.
It's ok if some of you think pure numbers a certain card sees should be the deciding factor for whether something gets banned. But please have the maturity to acknowledge that not everyone shares your sentinment. I for example couldn't care less for numbers of a certain card if the meta itself was super diverse from a strategic point of view.
Kick out strix and Goyf to add thoughtseize & snapcaster. Thats my betQuote:
Originally Posted by Poron
DRS is a mana dork that esper and grixis decks get to play, which is nuts. If DRS is banned, Grixis Delver doesn't get to ramp. Delver players do not say 'hmm maybe we should play Birds of Paradise'. There would still be a few decks that ramp but it would slow down the format a lot. Right now decks that *aren't* base-green and aren't even designed to need a t1 ramp play get to have one anyway, because, why not, card is all upside.Quote:
Originally Posted by s&s
I don't think DRS is going anywhere. It's really strong but so is the rest of the format and it has to compete with the likes of LED or Entomb or Narcomoeba or Show and Tell. If anything it fits right in by promoting more interactive strategies at a similar power level. It's also much, much more negotiable than Top ever was, which has like 4 cards that are okay against it and you never wanted to maindeck any of them. And look how long than ban took. In particular, I'm not even sure DRS is better than Delver or Goyf going forward- killing your opponent quickly seems REALLY underrated by the strongest DRS advocates. Maybe it's from 3 years of PTSD from Terminus.
But to whom does he listen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Was ArFo watching stats, or watching memes?
Borderline click bait
I've been bitching about DRS for this exact reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
We'll see? I could be happy either way. DRS gets the axe someday? Hierarch's value explodes and Goose becomes a thing again.
Doesn't? Well I get to play a mana-dork + maindeck grave-hate in BUx.
Eh, the format will probably see more creatures overall, meaning more targeted removal. Not that every deck won't still run 4x of the little bastard, but it's also not something you'll necessarily be building your deck just to beat.
Put me in the "Nope" opinion.
Creatures, which are so darn vulnerable, are very rarely the subject of bans in Legacy. DRS is great, but I think it is way down the list of cards that could get banned.
Specifically, I would put the following 12 cards ahead of DRS.
Brainstorm
Ponder
Fetchlands
Hope the community flips to trying to release prisoners rather than witch hunting. It's seems a little premature to start pointing fingers.
Really it's a load of f'ing crap that Mindtwist/Earthcraft/Goblin Recruiter - any or all of them, didnt get released.
I'm for this. Instead of killing Miracles it would have been great to just give other decks some of those very powerful spells. Give the non-blue players their banned cards back (and then maybe give blue players Mana Drain please)Quote:
Originally Posted by hymnyou
None of those spells could have done much.Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy
Legacy is the format of card selection, miracle was the king of card selection.
The only way to brute force a less cantrippy deck into the meta is to give it something actually insane, we are talking about desire/bargain level, not a 1/2 that moves the stack of creatures you already had on the bottom of your library back on top.
Still with no miracles around I doubt that the good old sick cards will see the light again, "bad ones" will but recruiter could be too good for example, we just have no idea what is going to happen, we havent played this game for 5 years.
I have to disagree, DRS is a creature and is infinitely more interactive than top+balance, it also doesn't protect itself and hide from removal.
At the end of the day he is just a really good one drop that is dependent on the graveyard, not ban worthy in legacy.
Right, they all suck- but it's weak that they didn't release any prisoners of war in exchange for the formats Lieutenant Commander, since they are all basically Cadets and Officers in Legacy's current state. Before going after another, I think at least 3 soldiers should be released back to the camps. If it wouldn't do anything, then just do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
Surely it would be fun, but we already have the biggest meta shake since delve/survival, maybe it's not the right time to throw more toys around, we already have plenty of "new" old stuff to play with.Quote:
Originally Posted by hymnyou
I really like the idea of an official "Watch List". I'm sure most of us will be able to guess 80% of the list without knowing it but extra communication on these things can only be a good thing.
Interesting to see that Huang thinks Chalice decks will suffer. If there's a rise in Delver and other mid-range decks one would assume that Chalice / Bloodmoon is would be nice to combat those decks.
I agree with others who've compared DRS to Brainstorm. True, it's ubiquitous in decks that play Black/Green and have a creature-centric strategy, but it enables multiple types of strategies, even if there is a fair amount of overlap in terms of card selection. For example, BUG Delver and BUG Cascade share a LOT of card choices, but the two decks play out differently and have a not-irrelevant number of different strengths and weaknesses. And obviously they're significantly different from Deathblade, Elves, Jund, etc.
DRS increases meaningful interaction, especially against obnoxious graveyard decks that otherwise would require a ton of sideboard space. So it also functions as a sort of pre-emptive measure against potentially broken strategies.
Like Brainstorm, DRS would be ban-worthy if the justification was based on concentration %. But the two cards are likely to be safe from the banhammer because they are played in different sorts of decks. At this point, DRS is kind of like a pillar of the format, along the same lines like cards such as Brainstorm, Force of Will, Daze, Wasteland, and Ponder.
SDT was played in more decks besides UWr Miracles, but none of those decks were arguably Tier 0/1 strategies or dominated tournaments for multiple years.
I think rather than banning DRS, they should design another 1-mana creature that's similarly powerful but instead of being :bg:, it could perhaps be :wr:.
Oh come on, don't you want to see somebody putting Mind Twist into a Maverick deck and fueling it with Gaea's Cradle? Let Timmy have some fun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
To be honest, i just was hoping to see Mind Twist unbanned, SDT being banned was like a chair-flipping "whoa" moment.
I think the other bit about DRS that makes him ubiquitous is that he suppresses grave-based cards, which are basically "too good." Delve, Goose, Loam, Reanimator, Dredge, etc..
They all survive the format with him in it, but they are nerfed a bit; while he is also vulnerable to grave hate himself. Getting him RiP'd is pretty bad F.E. And he is normally next to Gurmag, Goyf, recursion, or other grave-cards. I've lost plenty of midrange games to D&T players who spam RiPs just because it doubles as mana disruption when your deck is reliant on a grave-based manafixer.
I think it's weird they gave mono-black a true mana-dork at a good price, but the fact he hates on grave-strats is probably a net boon to the format.
Though, while he's in basically every deck I make, I don't care which way he goes. I think the article is just flame-bait and a "You're not my dad!" lashing out at reality where the writer believes he'll get back at the legacy community by triggering DRS-players. Good luck doing that.
I don't think this would do anything. The main reason people throw DRS in decks is because it's a good 4c mana fixer. He makes it easy to make weak manabases that are held together by the card. If DRS were WR, they would still do the exact same thing, playing Esper+X except instead of green to activate the lifegain, they would splash red to activate the damage. It would essentially still be the same deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
The sequence would be:
T1 - Fetch, Tundra, WRS
T2 - Brainstorm, Fetch, tap for mana, Badlands, Baleful Strix
or
T2 - Wasteland (blow something up), Tundra, tap for mana, Baleful Strix
Honestly though, DRS does good things for the format. As much as I dislike the ridiculous decks like Czech Pile which are just poorly made piles of good cards, tied together by a strong manadork it's a very good thing for the format to have MB'able hate for the graveyard that's available to practically everything.
It wouldn't have to fix mana. Something like this would be cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Boros Wizard (R/W) 1/2
(T) deal one damage to a creature/player or (and?) prevent one damage to a creature/player
(R) (T) exile an instant or sorcery card in GY draw a card then discard a card
(W) (T) exile a creature or land card in GY tap target nonland permanent (or maybe just a creature if that's too strong; or alternatively, target creature cannot attack or block this turn)
---
I really wish they made this card :laugh: it's kind of busted (so is DRS) but it helps R/W be more viable.
Figure of destiny!!!!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
A Legacy playable tapper would be sick as fuck. I mean I've tried out the Thornscape Apprentice in Maverick who is pretty sick as a Green Sun target, especially against Show and Tell. But I mean with all of those apprentice style cards none of them are actually playable. I think the key to Deathrite is that unless there's something like RIP out, he's always live. Ramping early, killing late. You need a card in that similar vein.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
This guy would be a bit different and I tried to make it always relevant. The red ability can filter cards (and feeds himself). The white ability can be used offensively and defensively. And then the colorless ability is universally applicable and can be used offensively or defensively. Then again, Merfolk Looter meets Grim Lavamancer meets Thornscape Apprentice might be a bit too good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
It would be pretty cool for the meta if red/white was viable in the same vein as green/black.
I don't see a DRS ban happen.
As noted by others, there are tons of ways to get rid of the creature, unlike top, which could protect itself by an activation and putting it on top of your deck. Artefact hate is also rarer then generic creature removal in the format.
The best way to tackle SDT was along the lines of Phyrexian Revoker [Which basicly only DnT wields] Pithing Needle [Relatively common SB card] or Null Rod.
DRS can be removed, or people go for the GY [RIP, Leyline of the Void] Most shells thats run DRS also run Goyf, Anglers next to them.
DRS can be ''countered'' by your own DRS. Granted, the one that has the DRS online first has an advantage, but it basicly turns into a stall: Im waiting for you to activate your DRS first so I can activate mine in response. (exception Elves in combination with Quirion Ranger tricks)
I don't find DRS broken, its just a VERY good magic card. There are plenty of other cards which I rather see go before DRS [Show and Tell grr)
I actually applaud the designer of DRS, they should give the dude another shot at designing more cards in different colours which are roughly at the same power level of DRS.
Lolno. How easily did decks replace Deathrite Shaman with those cards in Modern when it was banned?Quote:
Originally Posted by s&s
Saying you can replace Deathrite Shaman with Hierarchs or Birds is as goofy as saying that you can replace Green Sun's Zenith with Hierarchs or Birds.
The big one that I remember was Pod because I played it at the time. It was a straight swap, and the only real casualty was that the deck became 3 colors rather than splashing a fourth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Jund however dropped mana acceleration entirely and went back to 3 colors rather than 4.
Overall I think that's the only real drawback of DRS, it's great as hate and acceleration. Pushing decks 4c is the one bad consequence.
I think that the thing that's being overlooked here is the fact that Wizards (and more likely Hasbro since I'm guessing that sign showing up on social media was not something they were thrilled about) gave in to terrorism. There was a better ban to make in Counterbalance that didn't create a cascade effect in the short term. Despite that, the ban still opens up the possibility that if people make a spectacle of the situation, Wizards will feel compelled to make a move. This is a horrible precedent to set since it denies a conversation in the format's growth, which is how we end up with a format like Extended.
This ban was not based on and future bans will likely not be based on format health or what's fun. It's based on social pressure.