Is THE SOURCE's overall activity decreasing?

I joined a bit over 10 years ago and quickly became an avid Sourcer. I've seen users like myself come and go.
Now that I'm chiming in much less frequently than in the past, I'm viewing things (meta, deck development, etc..) more from the bird's eye perspective. It's still nice to drop by once in a while and follow the discussions.
However one thing strikes me every single time: When I don't visit THE SOURCE for 1-2 weeks, or more, I don't seem to have missed much, both quantity- and content-wise. A few years ago I would have missed much much more it seems.
Anybody else got that impression?
What are the implications?
What are your thoughts?

I think its fine. This forum never was super active. I mean IF something happens like the Hulk Flash combo, things go wild fast. Im still kinda dissapointed about this spoiler season - really not much to talk about.

I think some of the discussion (among higher tier players of certain archetypes) has shifted to private Facebook groups or other media. Also maybe the popularity of Legacy is decreasing.

My impression is that discussions have moved to various deck threads rather than there being articles on general topics or meta trends. Years ago, there used to be more articles linked to from outside sites. Part of this change has to do with paywalls for content now; part of it has to do with Star City changing the two-day Standard/Legacy format; part of it has to do with avid Legacy writers being pulled away from the game due to other responsibilities. Now that Team Trios-style events are being adopted, such as GP Santa Clara, Legacy will be getting more camera time for a large audience. There's also a Legacy GP in Seattle in a few months, so that will be a big stage.

Sean Brown was linking his excellent weekly digest for a while. He's still writing. People might not be aware of that, so here's a link to his most recent articles:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/search?author=81

Here's a roundup of Legacy articles from SCG's recent select-side archives:
http://www.starcitygames.com/tags/Se...-07/2018-01-07

And here's one from SCG's premium side. The premium articles become free/select-side after 30 days:
http://www.starcitygames.com/tags/Pr...-01/2017-12-01

Some threads have died due to discord channels or Facebook groups. That's a bit sad because then the discussions won't be documented

They are in Discord, you can search a server.

I have noticed this too, that The Source is slowing down. But that feels like a reasonable change as technology changes. A lot of the Australian legacy scene left the site we had for it and moved to Facebook.

The thing that this site offers though is still a place to network, a place to find the DTB for those who care and a place to gather and console information. Like the list of Discord servers and stores that offer Legacy.

I haven't playing as much...
Life getting in the way. Still have my decks. Elves, Dnt, Czech Pile, Miracles, Grixis Delver...
Next step is teaching my 3 boys Legacy starting with my 6 year old.

Legacy just isn't a particularly interesting format right now. The power level and efficiency of DRS, Brainstorm, Force, whatever else decks has pushed out the ability to really do anything actually interesting

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Legacy just isn't a particularly interesting format right now. The power level and efficiency of DRS, Brainstorm, Force, whatever else decks has pushed out the ability to really do anything actually interesting

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Without looking back at your past posts I'm relatively sure you've hated the format for some time. How often do you post here...? There's just a saturation of forums and TheSource is not the most user friendly. Also, many newer players are probably already familiar with FB and don't scour the web for a place to chat about mtg. I prefer TheSource rather than FB, reddit, discord, etc.

I stop by to read certain threads, but generally I am among those who visit the site less than I once did. I started to get annoyed about the constant whining (even when it was legitimate). I also just sorta got tired with regards to the way that R&D designs the game. They have been doing it about 10 years now at least and it has ruined Legacy in my opinion. I now just enjoy the Old School variants, whereas prior I enjoyed both. I have kept a Legacy deck however and am not opposed to playing it once in a while, it's just not my jam.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

They are in Discord, you can search a server.

I have noticed this too, that The Source is slowing down. But that feels like a reasonable change as technology changes. A lot of the Australian legacy scene left the site we had for it and moved to Facebook.

The thing that this site offers though is still a place to network, a place to find the DTB for those who care and a place to gather and console information. Like the list of Discord servers and stores that offer Legacy.

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Discord / chat tools seem completely out of place to me. It's true that direct discussion is better to confront opposite views/ideas and reach a conclusion... when there's only a couple potential people in the discussion. What's being said/discussed is lost to anyone who's not currently connected. That would already feel ill-advised if that only meant that newcomers had no way to catch up to the last days/weeks of discussion, but the fact that the audience is global - meaning only a small fraction of users will ever be connected at the same time - makes this painfully inefficient and counterproductive. With users across all the globe, anything that's being said is lost to the 90% that aren't currently connected. What if you have a question ? Do you interrupt the current discussion ? Do you come back later and hope someone will be there as well (hopefully someone that will be able to answer correctly ? how do you know the answer you got is not shit ?) ?

On a side note, does anyone enjoy having to be 100% available to the discussion taking place and/or suffering random dudes with weird voices or badly set up micros babbling in one's ears ? Ignoring a post or even a user is extremely easy in a forum. In an oral discussion ? Not so much.

If a team has its own discord channel, then sure, that seems logical. They might want to discuss some topics privately or only between themselves knowing they're all on the same level / page entering the future discussion. Otherwise, for discussion with strangers from all over the globe (be it sharing new ideas or answering questions or debating whaterver), this trend, if there's indeed one, baffles me. It's a great tool for a lot of jobs - this jusn't isn't one of these.

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Originally Posted by ESG

Now that Team Trios-style events are being adopted, such as GP Santa Clara, Legacy will be getting more camera time for a large audience.

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As a quick aside; will legacy statistics from team trios be integrated into DTB @DiceBox?

For me, most of the fun of magic was building crazy decks and fine tuning them to be able to take down specific metagames. Legacy used to be a wide open format that enabled my tinkering. Over time it's just become harder to do anything out of the box and have it perform well, so I've stopped following it.

I also used to be a lot more into the competitive MTG scene, but refuse to police my opponents for cheating for 1-2 day tournaments, which you definitely have to do if you want to win. It's just too draining for me to do it anymore, especially when there are enough other games out there that can fulfill my competitive drive.

I imagine this site lost a lot of traffic from people who enjoyed the age of rogue decks, but that time is pretty much over.

I think message boards in general are less popular than they were a decade ago due to social media, reddit, etc.

So I think this trend is mostly unrelated to the state of legacy - it's not like mtgsalvation is particularly active, especially considering how popular modern is in comparison.

Personally I check out the site almost daily to check up on my favorites decks and the pimp thread. I stopped adding comments on most pages for a few reasons.

~Aluren: I play with Imperial Recruiter, that version never has discussion and I'm told I shouldn't be playing certain cards even when I explain my reasoning and not being given reasons in return as to why it shouldn't be played.

~D&T/Imperial Taxes: I've shared my ideas about trimming certain cards and been laughed at (I was the first on here to suggest 3 SFM for example) and I am told that I play the deck wrong (3 Magus, 3 Imperial, Ghost Quarters over Ports by choice as I have sets of both). Also no one talks about the Imperial Recruiter anymore, it's all Recruiter of the Guard.

~MUD: I haven't seriously played the deck in a long time, so I lurk there to keep somewhat up to date with development, but a lot of it deals with the Locus mana base that I don't enjoy using.

~Enchantress UG and GW: I like to try lots of different things, but also haven't played in a serious tournament for along time with the deck.

~Couple random other decks that I haven't gotten around to putting the cards together and playing even though I have the cards and the decks look like fun.

I used to play Legacy (and by extension, use the site) religiously, but then the format ossified and Miracles became the Obvious Best Deck and I cashed out and switched to just playing Limited and EDH.

I think there's a few things at play here:

1) Bulletin board-style forums are on the downswing as tools allowing for more immediate conversations grow in popularity. This is mostly because the loss in long-term record keeping is more than made up for by the immediacy of chat and the ability to coordinate in real time. Most people have no particular desire to go back in time and read posts from six months ago, even in a format as static as Legacy.

2) The format is stale and defined by power level mistakes. Brainstorm and DRS are so much better than anything else you could be doing that your options are basically reduced to playing Brainstorm or trying to play to beat Brainstorm. Furthermore, because the power floor in the format is absurdly high, most of the cards that make it in from new sets are just incremental improvements for extant decks. When was the last time a new deck even cropped up because of new releases? Eldrazi MUD?

3) Modern has supplanted Legacy as a diverse format with a broad card pool. This is partially because it has way more tournament support, partially because it's way cheaper, and partially because WotC's astonishing train of fuckups in Standard drove people to the next-biggest format en masse. For the people like me who are brewers rather than iterators, Modern is a much, much more interesting format. For people who want to play competitively but don't want to drop $1k on a manabase alone, Modern is a much more accessible format. Legacy had its moment when Extended was in its death throes and players were looking for something more interesting than Standard but less daunting than Vintage, but now Legacy isn't markedly cheaper than Vintage is.

4) Many of the old guard players have moved on from Magic or aren't playing competitively. Just speaking for myself for a moment: my Magic habit turns 21 this year, and I haven't played the game in any capacity in months because of a combination of work, shifting interests, and a lack of engagement with or enthusiasm for the game. I imagine there's lots of guys out there who used to be active on the site when they were in college, or just out of college, who got married, started a family, and now don't game at all anymore, or just barely do so.

I suppose you could also argue that MtG being thoroughly outclassed online by games like Hearthstone means you're not getting the same kind of traffic growth you got five or ten years ago. Players looking for games on the internet aren't landing on Magic and, by extension, aren't landing on Magic forums as much anymore. Also, as mentioned above, the growing importance of social media as a forum for discussion about everything was bound to hurt other venues.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Everything Aggro just said.

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I haven't posted in months myself.. but I agree with everything Aggro said. I love playing oddball legacy decks.. and I got a point where being beat by brainstorm week after week made me lose alot of interest. I'm now on my offtime just building oldschool 93/94 decks that I grew up with... even though I don't have a lot of people to play it with.

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Originally Posted by ScottW

Without looking back at your past posts I'm relatively sure you've hated the format for some time. How often do you post here...? There's just a saturation of forums and TheSource is not the most user friendly. Also, many newer players are probably already familiar with FB and don't scour the web for a place to chat about mtg. I prefer TheSource rather than FB, reddit, discord, etc.

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Well my post count suggests that I have no life (and it's correct) and join date was probably a few months after I started the format. But yes I have not enjoyed the format for at least a year now, maybe more. It was fine to me really until Khans and the Delve spells showed you should really just try to be hyper efficient to the best deck.

The format is totally boring imo...sorry to say, and its been this way for quite some time.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Well my post count suggests that I have no life (and it's correct) and join date was probably a few months after I started the format. But yes I have not enjoyed the format for at least a year now, maybe more. It was fine to me really until Khans and the Delve spells showed you should really just try to be hyper efficient to the best deck.

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I've also been dissapointed more or less and can see how certain types of eternal players could feel more so. I can respect a land destruction enthusiast :smile:

What Aggro_Zombies said.

I can't believe I'm the oldest member posting in this thread. Really feeling old now, like a relic from a different time.

The same things that killed Vintage are slowly but surely killing Legacy. Specifically, ever-increasing costs combined with an essentially solved meta.

The only thing that will breathe new life into the format at this point is either a change in the reserved list policy or the banning of certain meta-defining cards (e.g., Brainstorm and/or DRS.)

I don't want this to turn into a B/R discussion about specific cards so let's avoid that here, but basically the meta needs to shake up for anyone that ever cared about the format to want to keep playing it into the future.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

The same things that killed Vintage are slowly but surely killing Legacy. Specifically, ever-increasing costs combined with an essentially solved meta.

The only thing that will breathe new life into the format at this point is either a change in the reserved list policy or the banning of certain meta-defining cards (e.g., Brainstorm and/or DRS.)

I don't want this to turn into a B/R discussion about specific cards so let's avoid that here, but basically the meta needs to shake up for anyone that ever cared about the format to want to keep playing it into the future.

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Agree with the first point, which is the reserved list aka dual lands problem.

Disagree with the second point. Old Miracles had a 4-year run, 2013~2016, before it got the axe. Top actually got on the radar on 2015~2016. The meta is always going to be stale, or stable, depending on how one looks at it. Some think the current dynamic of Legacy is just fine.

In contrast, with team constructed pro-tour, GPs, and SCG's team constructed events, and the typical Legacy GPs, Legacy the format is actually getting more visibility than before. Hence, the format might be getting more exposure, how about the site? Maybe a marketing campaign is the real answer. How many standard players or newcomers of Magic are aware of this site?

I agree with Zilla, his avatar gif basically sums up my feelings in regards to a solved meta, why I stopped being active (aside from the work firewall changing and blocking this site.)

On the 1st page, it was made mention that there is little to no room for rogue decks (true home brews, not new decks in infancy). I miss being able to jam with jank, net decking isn't as much fun. Just searching SCG (cause gatherer is bollocks) for card types at a certain cc, color, with blank keywor is much more entertaining than copy+paste+pay. /rant

For me, the solved meta is the main issue. Legacy isn't really exciting right now. It's the same DRS/Brainstorm slugfest over and over again. Bans are one way to handle it, but it wouldn't solve that issue in the long run (balance is a different topic).

A few new cards to shake up the meta or even enable a new deck would be nice.

I honestly don't think anything can fix it. The main reason I stated on the last page (rogue decks can't compete anymore) is mostly because of efficiency now. There's no point in going Survival of the Fittest into Sneak Attack into Bogardan Hellkite anymore (yeah, I'm proud of that deck), because any rogue deck doing anything similar to that should just be trying to play Griselbrand or Emrakul. It's not just how the Brainstorm/Deathrite efficiency meta has become overpowering, it's also about how the linear decks have homogenized into these things that just instakill.

Old Legacy had big threats that were still scary, but gave you turns to come up with an answer. Any powerful card now is "counter me right now or you die," or at most "you have literally one turn to answer me." You used to have to grind out games with incremental advantages, now you have the answer or you don't. Remember when Werebear was a scary threat?

You can't ban a single thing anymore to bring back the open field that it was back in the 200x's, creatures kill too fast, bomb cards are too explosive, and there's just no reason to play 99% of the old cards that don't see play anymore, because one thing or another has just completely supplanted it.

I only come here out of habit and to say something in the Modern thread every once in a while.

Honestly, the most pessimistic statements seem to be coming from the people who play very little Legacy now. If you think the meta is solved, it's possible you're not engaged enough with the format to be noticing the evolution. Earlier in this thread, I posted links to a lot of recent Legacy articles, and nobody seemed interested in using them to launch other points of discussion.

You can be unhappy with the format for any number of personal reasons, such as preferring a lower overall power level, but saying the meta is solved is just false.

Let's look back at recent breakout decks that weren't considered decks before this year: Ravager Shops, Big Eldrazi, Nyx Fit, Reanimator Depths. Ruby Storm hasn't broken through yet, but it has some promise. It's considered a known deck now. If we go back a bit farther, we hit BR Reanimator and Turbo Depths, too, which shook things up. Those decks came to life or were advanced via the New and Developmental Decks forum. Nyx Fit grew out of the Nic Fit thread in Established, and the Established Decks forum is enormous. People have so many deck options right from the start, and there are plenty of other possibilities still to be explored.

Locally, Aluren, RIP/Helm Control, Miracle of Science, UWr Stoneblade, Enchantress, Death's Shadow, The Cure, and Tezzerator have proved themselves to be real decks. If you think it's not possible to brew anymore, you're wrong. The format's power level has increased, which makes it less forgiving to jank, but you can still try new things and tune your creations to achieve better finishes.

Hollywood/Michael Keller is a good example of someone who's always tinkering. He's had good finishes with Manaless Dredge, Dredge, Thought Lash (I think?), and Painter, and if you read his tournament reports and contributions to deck development threads, he's always adapting, digging out old cards and finding new tech.

Hanni is another longtime Sourcer who had a big finish recently with a deck he adapted. His Deathblade build for Eternal Weekend shifted significantly from common Deathblade lists, incorporating Monastery Mentor, Cabal Therapy, and main-deck Spell Pierce.

I understand that some people have kids now, but if you don't make time for Legacy, then that's a personal choice; that's not a failing of the format.

Well said ESG, well said.

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Originally Posted by ESG

Honestly, the most pessimistic statements seem to be coming from the people who play very little Legacy now. If you think the meta is solved, it's possible you're not engaged enough with the format to be noticing the evolution. Earlier in this thread, I posted links to a lot of recent Legacy articles, and nobody seemed interested in using them to launch other points of discussion.

You can be unhappy with the format for any number of personal reasons, such as preferring a lower overall power level, but saying the meta is solved is just false.

Let's look back at recent breakout decks that weren't considered decks before this year: Ravager Shops, Big Eldrazi, Nyx Fit, Reanimator Depths. Ruby Storm hasn't broken through yet, but it has some promise. It's considered a known deck now. If we go back a bit farther, we hit BR Reanimator and Turbo Depths, too, which shook things up. Those decks came to life or were advanced via the New and Developmental Decks forum. Nyx Fit grew out of the Nic Fit thread in Established, and the Established Decks forum is enormous. People have so many deck options right from the start, and there are plenty of other possibilities still to be explored.

Locally, Aluren, RIP/Helm Control, Miracle of Science, UWr Stoneblade, Enchantress, Death's Shadow, The Cure, and Tezzerator have proved themselves to be real decks. If you think it's not possible to brew anymore, you're wrong. The format's power level has increased, which makes it less forgiving to jank, but you can still try new things and tune your creations to achieve better finishes.

Hollywood/Michael Keller is a good example of someone who's always tinkering. He's had good finishes with Manaless Dredge, Dredge, Thought Lash (I think?), and Painter, and if you read his tournament reports and contributions to deck development threads, he's always adapting, digging out old cards and finding new tech.

Hanni is another longtime Sourcer who had a big finish recently with a deck he adapted. His Deathblade build for Eternal Weekend shifted significantly from common Deathblade lists, incorporating Monastery Mentor, Cabal Therapy, and main-deck Spell Pierce.

I understand that some people have kids now, but if you don't make time for Legacy, then that's a personal choice; that's not a failing of the format.

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Must be nice to have a local scene.

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Originally Posted by ESG

If you think it's not possible to brew anymore, you're wrong.

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I also wonder sometimes if this feeling comes as much from becoming more experienced as it does with the format itself changing. Many of the posters here have played Legacy for long enough that the perceived loss of openness in the format could just as easily be their increasing unwillingness to play questionable decks - it might've felt like there were more available decks early on, when they were less able to evaluate viability. I'm not saying the format hasn't also become more streamlined, but I do think there are a lot more viable decks in Legacy than there are in many other formats, and the gameplay is more interesting to boot.

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Originally Posted by Barook

For me, the solved meta is the main issue. Legacy isn't really exciting right now. It's the same DRS/Brainstorm slugfest over and over again. Bans are one way to handle it, but it wouldn't solve that issue in the long run (balance is a different topic).

A few new cards to shake up the meta or even enable a new deck would be nice.

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eldrazi winter was not that long ago. LOL at the solved meta.

New stuff makes new decks all the time. Old decks get new tools

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Originally Posted by ESG

Honestly, the most pessimistic statements seem to be coming from the people who play very little Legacy now. If you think the meta is solved, it's possible you're not engaged enough with the format to be noticing the evolution. Earlier in this thread, I posted links to a lot of recent Legacy articles, and nobody seemed interested in using them to launch other points of discussion.

You can be unhappy with the format for any number of personal reasons, such as preferring a lower overall power level, but saying the meta is solved is just false.

Let's look back at recent breakout decks that weren't considered decks before this year: Ravager Shops, Big Eldrazi, Nyx Fit, Reanimator Depths. Ruby Storm hasn't broken through yet, but it has some promise. It's considered a known deck now. If we go back a bit farther, we hit BR Reanimator and Turbo Depths, too, which shook things up. Those decks came to life or were advanced via the New and Developmental Decks forum. Nyx Fit grew out of the Nic Fit thread in Established, and the Established Decks forum is enormous. People have so many deck options right from the start, and there are plenty of other possibilities still to be explored.

Locally, Aluren, RIP/Helm Control, Miracle of Science, UWr Stoneblade, Enchantress, Death's Shadow, The Cure, and Tezzerator have proved themselves to be real decks. If you think it's not possible to brew anymore, you're wrong. The format's power level has increased, which makes it less forgiving to jank, but you can still try new things and tune your creations to achieve better finishes.

Hollywood/Michael Keller is a good example of someone who's always tinkering. He's had good finishes with Manaless Dredge, Dredge, Thought Lash (I think?), and Painter, and if you read his tournament reports and contributions to deck development threads, he's always adapting, digging out old cards and finding new tech.

Hanni is another longtime Sourcer who had a big finish recently with a deck he adapted. His Deathblade build for Eternal Weekend shifted significantly from common Deathblade lists, incorporating Monastery Mentor, Cabal Therapy, and main-deck Spell Pierce.

I understand that some people have kids now, but if you don't make time for Legacy, then that's a personal choice; that's not a failing of the format.

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I agree rather whole hearted with this.

It's possible lack of local tournaments have people jaded. I'm lucky enough to be in Chicago area where we have 5+ weeklies and other big events in the mdiwest.

I personally have a healthy 15-20 man weekly I can attend, a larger monthly, and a big quarterly and that's not to mention traveling a bit for many other events. Legacy is just not in an interesting place right now.

Curious here as I've been playing legacy for quite a long time. What decks were present when the format was "interesting"?

Generally [insert player] found the format 'fun' and 'interesting' when [insert player]'s pet deck was doing well.

I think you all lost interest for magic in general (which is understandable after such a long time) rather than in legacy specifically.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

Curious here as I've been playing legacy for quite a long time. What decks were present when the format was "interesting"?

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I've only been playing for a few years at most now (Legacy). Probably more like 2.

Meta has had pretty big shifts once to twice per year. I actually don't understand when people call it stale. I would LIKE it to be stale.

I might actually git gud if deck's weren't getting new tools, and new decks didn't keep popping up.

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

Curious here as I've been playing legacy for quite a long time. What decks were present when the format was "interesting"?

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For me personally, I enjoyed Legacy the most when people where complaining that Goblin Lackey was overpowered. I miss having truelly aggressive decks like Goblin and Zoo running around. Even Fish has nosedived. While I love Lands I miss the days before the race to the bottom had yet to take over and a 5 mana 2/2 that made 3 tokens was a true powerhouse.

I guess my answer is thus, Legacy was best just before the Goyf showed us what creatures where to become.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Generally Dice found the format 'fun' and 'interesting' when Goblins was doing well.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I guess my answer is thus, Legacy was best just before the Goyf showed us what creatures where to become.

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man do I hope you're among the regulars who visit my decks page as I think you'd really enjoy the nostalgia

I have only played Legacy since 2011, but yeah. Goyf seems like it was basically the beginning, and we are far past the point now.