[Deck - CaNG II WINNER] NDW - an ATS evolution

When ATS started, well, sucking, I was disappointed, as I'd started building the deck. In a few weeks it wouldn't matter, as my collection would be stolen. But with the support of The Lucky Frog, Team Scrabs, the Hatfields, Jesse Krieger, Jander and Kaddy, and even, yes, Calosso, I obtained and borrowed enough cards to throw together Enchantress and ATS. It was at this time I started questioning some of the presuppositions that I think influence the ATS decklist.

My list developed into the following;

4x SotF
4x Mana Leak
4x FoW
4x Brainstorm
4x Eternal Witness
3x Wall of Blossoms
3x Basking Rootwalla
2x Tradewind Rider
2x Stifle
1x Squee
1x Genesis
1x Anger
1x Rofellos
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Caller of the Claw
1x Manowar
1x Uktabi Orangutan
1x Mystic Snake

4x Tropical Island
2x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
8x Forest

I abandoned mana acceleration because they were useless against control and Birds especially because it was fragile. Ranger I kept for a short period, but without Birds it was subpar. Caller and Rootwalla were there for combat tricks. Hermit was muscle and a fresh line of blockers when needed. Witness and Leak were upped to 4 to give the deck more control sans the Survival.

I had a favorable record vs Goblins and went about 50-50 with Solidarity. After a while, I noticed the Stifles being pretty mediocre, but I didn't want to lower the blue count, so whatever replaced them had to be blue. Eventually I decided on 1x Ninja of the Deep Hours, and 1x Mistblade Shinobi. The Ninjitsu mechanic had strong synergy with the deck; come into play abilities could be reactivated, creatures could be fed to Survival, and Rootwalla especially had synergy. With this version I went 7-9 verse goblins, and 5-3 verse UGR Gro. But there were still problems. I noticed that my creatures were generally fragile and not very strong, and my only answer to Lackey on the draw was Rootwalla. In addition, I lost games because of mana screw; I was playing only two Taigas and without Survival I'd often hold onto dead cards. In an efford to fix the various problems, I made some dramatic changes to the deck.

NDW; Ninja Deck Wins.

4x Mana Leak
3x Eternal Witness
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Brainstorm
3x SotF
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Basking Rootwalla
2x Werebear
1x Ninja of the Deep Hours
1x Throat Slitter
1x Skullsnatcher
1x Okiba-gang Shinobi
1x Bone Shredder
1x Krovikan Horror
1x Genesis
1x Wonder
1x Mystic Snake
1x Uktabi Orangutan
1x Caller of the Claw
1x Dimir Infiltrator
1x Spike Feeder

4x Bayou
4x Tropical Island
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
5x Forest

SB:
4x Engineered Plague
2x Scrabbling Claws
2x Phyrexian Furnace
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Duress
1x Spore Frog
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Nezumi Graverobber

I'm still in the process of getting actual numbers, but preliminary testing has been positive against Goblins, both with Burrows and Port. Black has given me solid utility, and thus far I haven't ever been impaired by the switch from Squee to Horror.

Card explanations;

4x Mana Leak; it lets me play the aggro-control role.

4x Eternal Witness; though weak vs. Goblins, it shines verse everything else, garnering impressive card advantage and quality.

4x Nimble Mongoose; amazing vs. Goblins, it's a cheap beater that's hard to kill, and in the mid-late game it's easy to get all 4 on the board and smash.

4x Brainstorm; the best available draw spell, with 7 fetches and 3x SotF.

3x Basking Rootwalla; a solid trick with Survival that buys time, and often a potent threat on its own.

3x Cabal Therapy; I switched to Therapy over FoW for three reasons; less card disadvantage on average, its proactive, which is important vs Solidarity, and it means I can lower my blue count freely.

2x Werebear; a little bit of mana accel and/or muscle.

Tradewind Rider; sometimes a useful answer, but not the heart of the deck anymore.

Ninja of the Deep Hours; very solid draw, plus the utility of the Ninjitsu mechanic. Returning Witness to your hand to smack with Deep Hours is hot.

Mistblade Shinobi; not impressing me, honestly, but I haven't tested the new build vs Gro, so we'll wait and see.

Throat Slitter; has in my limited experience always created a 2 for 1.

Skullsnatcher; anti-Thresh tech.

Orangutan; usually a 2 for 1, and an answer to various threats. His erstwhile compatriot Lyrist was not included, because the prime target would be Humility, which, yeah.

Caller of the Claw; a combat trick and anti-removal ace in the hole.

Mesmeric Fiend; Therapy #4 that's tutorable and lets me see their hand if they're playing something unexpected.

Bone Shredder; the tutorable kill has come up quite a lot.

Mystic Snake; again, a 2 for 1 most of the time. I like card advantage.

Krovikan Horror; honestly, I never used Squeer more than a few times a game. I get the same mileage out of Horror, plus he doesn't suck on his own.

Genesis; still an MVP vs Control.

Wonder; Great synergy with the Ninjas and an aswer to flyers, which were problematic beforehand.

Running Tally;
Goblins 4-1
Burn 0-3
RGZoo 1-1
ASStompy 1-0
Solidarity 1-0
MUCStasis 1-1

Testing changes;
-1 Mesmeric Fiend
-1 Tradewind Rider
-1 Mistblade Shinobi
+1 Okiba Gang Shinobi
+1 Dimir Infiltrator
+1 Spike Feeder

Congratulations on having the courage to cut cards from a Survival deck. Most people refuse to consider Survival without Anger/Rofellos. I like Wonder and the ninjas, but I'm not sold on Wearbear, Fiend or Horror over Squee. How long does it take to get Threshold?

^ So far your idea is IMo most perverted and original. Totally mad, consistent and probably dangerous. Good luck in competition!

I'm only afraid that it's too slow for legacy. Sure, you can drop some threats fast, but without acceleration all these techs will lay in your hand forever. :wink:

This looks like a fun casual deck. :)

Actually, I give him total props. This is a nice, innovative concept going on here. It's cool to see a spin on ATS, but your new build is far different from ATS. It's in it's own category, something like threshold-meets ATS-meets a lot of decks. I guess NDW is a suitable name though :)

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Congratulations on having the courage to cut cards from a Survival deck. Most people refuse to consider Survival without Anger/Rofellos. I like Wonder and the ninjas, but I'm not sold on Wearbear, Fiend or Horror over Squee. How long does it take to get Threshold?

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Actually, I've cut Rofellos from my own build. I'd presonally have another Wall of Roots in that slot, because the ability to produce mana while having a fatass is much better than a speed boost that requires a lot of prequisites. I haven't cut Anger though, no. I still believe the ability to give haste is God's greatest good. However, my build isn't as reliant on him as before, as graveyard hate is too common. Werebear in his deck is all right, as it can also be acceleration should he need it. Plus, tutoring for a 2 mana 4/4 that can fly is pretty good.

I still keep an updated list using red, but I'm definately going to be sending out my efforts to my own list like this(with acceleration dammit) :p

Props on a cool list. One concern, however. I see exacly zero answers to Humility once it's on the board. This seems like a major Bad Thing. Has it been a problem for you in testing? How has your testing vs Rifter/Wombat gone?

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Originally Posted by BlindMage

Props on a cool list. One concern, however. I see exacly zero answers to Humility once it's on the board. This seems like a major Bad Thing. Has it been a problem for you in testing? How has your testing vs Rifter/Wombat gone?

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Since we're all being cool and importing some of the better ideas from my old deck, if you want to answer Humility maindeck (apart from Therapy), fit in a Dimir Infiltrator and Naturalize. It would also let you pretend you have the fourth Survival.

I like some of the ideas presented here. Werebear seems like a good choice, with Brainstorm and the fetches. I'm not so sold on the ninjas, though, are they really better than their non-ninja equivalents? For example, is Mistblade Shinobi really better than Man o War? Certainly I would like to see a defense of Skullsnatcher over Withered Wretch. Not including at least one in the SB over one of your three other RFG cards seems a sin.

I never ever liked Mystic Snake in Survival builds. The mana is absolutely awful, and I never used it. So maybe you can tutor up a counterspell, but if you have SotF the only card that scares you is Akroma's Vengeance, and even then you have Caller. Otherwise you should just get such an overwhelming advantage from SotF, you should win right away.

With no tutors for SotF, why not run 4?

I see a serious lack of evasion. Because you run so few dependable creatures, it seems like you're going to have Ninja troubles. Consider Gaea's Skyfolk because it just happens to hit for 2 in the air in addition to being a good ninja enabler.
Ophidian Ninja seems awful because of the afore-mentioned lack of evasion. If you need a draw engine, isn't Shadowmage Infiltrator 100x better?
It just seems like Mesmeric Fiend, Mystic Snake are all very weak and you should want better creatures that don't require a Survival chain to set up.

I'd consider Bob or extra Dimir Infiltrators to help get Survival up and running.

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I never ever liked Mystic Snake in Survival builds. The mana is absolutely awful, and I never used it. So maybe you can tutor up a counterspell, but if you have SotF the only card that scares you is Akroma's Vengeance, and even then you have Caller. Otherwise you should just get such an overwhelming advantage from SotF, you should win right away.

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GGGGU is not awful mana for a tutorable counterspell. Every mana source in the deck produces green, and finding a single blue isn't of any difficulty either. As an experienced survival player, the ability to tutor up a counterspell at will is one of the greatest strengths the deck has. Of course, it's a little better when you have more acceleration to quicken it :p, but it still works none-the-less.

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With no tutors for SotF, why not run 4?

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I would also like to know the answer to that question.

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see a serious lack of evasion. Because you run so few dependable creatures, it seems like you're going to have Ninja troubles. Consider Gaea's Skyfolk because it just happens to hit for 2 in the air in addition to being a good ninja enabler.
Ophidian Ninja seems awful because of the afore-mentioned lack of evasion. If you need a draw engine, isn't Shadowmage Infiltrator 100x better?
It just seems like Mesmeric Fiend, Mystic Snake are all very weak and you should want better creatures that don't require a Survival chain to set up

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1x Wonder

Yeah, I saw Wonder, but that's fairly iffy. Besides the risk of getting a Tropical Island Wastelanded, it's a kludgy answer that pre-supposes you get Survival down. Sure, you can get Survival down, then go Horror->Rootwalla->Wonder->Ninja etc etc etc... but don't you have better things to do once you have Survival down?

Would you think about running a second Sex Monkey to combat Needle on Survival?

I tested a bit, and one deck kept beating me

Burn: I just wasnt fast enough. We need a way of stabilizing life points, because even when I killed there threats they just topdecked lucky and killed me. There was nothing I could do.

Thanks for listening,
A Banana

Lots of stuff.

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

Would you think about running a second Sex Monkey to combat Needle on Survival?

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Yes, I've thought about it, though a Viridan Shaman would be better. But yes, I've thought about it, although at the moment testing hasn't shown it to be a huge concern.

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Originally Posted by parallax

Congratulations on having the courage to cut cards from a Survival deck. Most people refuse to consider Survival without Anger/Rofellos. I like Wonder and the ninjas, but I'm not sold on Wearbear, Fiend or Horror over Squee. How long does it take to get Threshold?

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With Survival, not long at all. Without, a bit longer. Probably a turn or two behind Threshold, depending on the deck you're up against. Currently I'm trying to figure out some decent ways to hit it faster sans Survival.

Werebear is never dead; it's either acceleration or a beater. Horror, like I said, gets basically the same mileage as Squee. Fiend is a little iffy. It's one of the cards on the "watchlist".

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Originally Posted by Warmonger

I'm only afraid that it's too slow for legacy. Sure, you can drop some threats fast, but without acceleration all these techs will lay in your hand forever.

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Technically, Werebear is acceleration. But that aside, the curve is lower than that of other Survival builds, because I run virtually no accel.

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Props on a cool list. One concern, however. I see exacly zero answers to Humility once it's on the board. This seems like a major Bad Thing. Has it been a problem for you in testing? How has your testing vs Rifter/Wombat gone?

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Unfortunately I've had no testing vs Wombat or Rifter with the newest list.

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Originally Posted by MattH

Since we're all being cool and importing some of the better ideas from my old deck, if you want to answer Humility maindeck (apart from Therapy), fit in a Dimir Infiltrator and Naturalize. It would also let you pretend you have the fourth Survival.

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The only list I looked at actually was the "standing" list about 7 months ago. Since then, all development has been independent of any online source(barring some testing on MWS). Infiltrator is an interesting idea that merits some playtesting; I like its various synergies.

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I like some of the ideas presented here. Werebear seems like a good choice, with Brainstorm and the fetches. I'm not so sold on the ninjas, though, are they really better than their non-ninja equivalents? For example, is Mistblade Shinobi really better than Man o War?

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Mistblade has proven to be the least effective NINJA!; you'll see in the original list I was running ManoWar(in place of Drake). I'll put in some more testing with Mistblade, and unless it starts shining, the Jellyfish will take its place. Deep Hours has no equivalent. Throat Slitter is all ready accompanied by his friend Bone Shredder.

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Certainly I would like to see a defense of Skullsnatcher over Withered Wretch. Not including at least one in the SB over one of your three other RFG cards seems a sin.

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Double black plus mana to activate seems prohibitive when Skullsnatcher provides 2 activations plus combat tricks and Ninjitsu synergy for a measly B. The single point of ass is a liability, but not verse Thresh.

Regarding the NINJA!s in general, it's impossible to describe how well they fit into the deck without playtesting it for a while.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

I never ever liked Mystic Snake in Survival builds. The mana is absolutely awful, and I never used it.

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We'll have to agree to disagree then, as I find the Snake absolutely amazing.

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So maybe you can tutor up a counterspell, but if you have SotF the only card that scares you is Akroma's Vengeance, and even then you have Caller.

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It's not just that it's a tutorable counter. Its also a two for one sans Survival, and an instant speed creature.

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Otherwise you should just get such an overwhelming advantage from SotF, you should win right away.

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The problem is once you drop Survival, there's still a couple turns where you have to catch up, since Survival doesn't have an immediate impact on the game. This is also why Rootwallas are so important in the deck.

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With no tutors for SotF, why not run 4?

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The deck functions without it, doesn't necessarily benefit by dropping it early, and its terrible to draw in multiples. In my experience I do better without than with extra dead cards in hand.

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I see a serious lack of evasion.

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See above. Wonder is amazing. Without, its actually not that hard to force through a Rootwalla with two mana open, or a Mongoose with Thresh.

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Because you run so few dependable creatures, it seems like you're going to have Ninja troubles. Consider Gaea's Skyfolk because it just happens to hit for 2 in the air in addition to being a good ninja enabler.

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While some additional evasion would be nice, the only evasion creature I'd consider heavily worth testing at the moment is the Dimir Infiltrator mentioned above, because of multiple synergies, with both Survival itself, NINJA!s, or even Mana Leak.

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Ophidian Ninja seems awful because of the afore-mentioned lack of evasion. If you need a draw engine, isn't Shadowmage Infiltrator 100x better?

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Double mana requirements and one more mana, plus a lack of haste, which is effectively what Deep Hours has. He won me at least two games so far based off his card advantage.

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It just seems like Mesmeric Fiend, Mystic Snake are all very weak and you should want better creatures that don't require a Survival chain to set up.

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I agree with Fiend; however, 4x Therapy seems like overkill, as often I'll play vs Random, where it's hampered quite a bit. I could simply run a Duress.

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I'd consider Bob or extra Dimir Infiltrators to help get Survival up and running.

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I thought about Bob, but I have two concerns; a) the ass of 1, and b)Genesis, Tradewind, Snake, Wonder, and the NINJA!s.

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Yeah, I saw Wonder, but that's fairly iffy. Besides the risk of getting a Tropical Island Wastelanded, it's a kludgy answer that pre-supposes you get Survival down. Sure, you can get Survival down, then go Horror->Rootwalla->Wonder->Ninja etc etc etc... but don't you have better things to do once you have Survival down?

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The advantage is that its not that bad a plan sans Survival. And while you could try to go uber busted with the standard Anger, Squee, Rofellos nonsense, the plan proved too easily disrupted to me, and required several weaknesses in the decklist, like a higher curve, mana acceleration*coughfluffcough*, etc. Compared to RGSA, well, their curve is way too high. That's the bottom line. That, and Goblin King.

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Originally Posted by A Banana

I tested a bit, and one deck kept beating me

Burn: I just wasnt fast enough. We need a way of stabilizing life points, because even when I killed there threats they just topdecked lucky and killed me. There was nothing I could do.

Thanks for listening,
A Banana

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I played three very close games against burn that all went in their favor. I'm entirely genuine when I say they were very close. I think that adding a single Spike Feeder would be enough to tilt it in our favor, but the only cards I'd think about cutting right now are Caller of the Claw and Fiend. Right now Infiltrator is next up for testing in Fiend's slot, and I think Caller will be critical when I get a chance to test vs Rifter/Wombat(Wifter).



If I forgot to address anything, my apologies.

NINJA VANISH!

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

I played three very close games against burn that all went in their favor. I'm entirely genuine when I say they were very close. I think that adding a single Spike Feeder would be enough to tilt it in our favor, but the only cards I'd think about cutting right now are Caller of the Claw and Fiend. Right now Infiltrator is next up for testing in Fiend's slot, and I think Caller will be critical when I get a chance to test vs Rifter/Wombat(Wifter).
NINJA VANISH!

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Maybe run Ravenous Baloth? I could see that, Eternal Witness, and a ninja making a cute little combo, sorry, I mean and EVIL little combo. it would just require adding 1 more card and would swing the burn match into your favor.

Thanks,
A Banana

Rootwalla, Mongoose, Brainstorm, Mana Leak, Therapy, Survival, Werebear, Lands...that is a pretty low mana curve.

So what about that little badass Dark Confidant. I mean, you play B, your most expansive Spell are a lonely Tradewind Riders, Genesis and Throat Slitter. He seems like a natural inclusion for me.

I second Tao. You should test him. He also is good w/lifegain creatures, like Ravenouse Baloth! Lol, I'm kidding. But he should go in, and so should baloth.

I disagree. Bob does not seems like a natural inclusionin a deck with 15 cards casting cost 3 or higher, including several 4s and a few 5s. And anyway, it's not like the deck doesn't already have a huge draw engine. However, adding a Baloth might not be a bad idea, given how good he is with Genesis. On the other hand, that lifegain engine I just mentioned is very, very slow and mana intensive. Still, 4 life could be enough to swing a close game against burn in your favor. Failing that, you could always sideboard Zuran Orb or something of the sort, if burn is common in you area.

Speaking of the sideboard, I see fully 6 anti-Gro cards. Is that amount of sideboard space really justified? It seems like Threshold should be a favorable matchup for you, since you have comparibly sized creatures, Genesis, Mistblade, Boneshredder, and Thoat Slitter. It seems like a card like Haunting Echoes would be more useful than Tormod's Crypt, since it's the scoopmeister against control, and also hates thresh, in a pinch.

How necessary are the 3 Basking Rootwalla? It seems like, while they are good in the deck, three might be too much, and that one might be better served as a Ravenous Baloth to combat burn.

...Well rootwallas are commonly used with Survival of the Fittest sprees, so multiples are always good.

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Originally Posted by awbarry00

How necessary are the 3 Basking Rootwalla? It seems like, while they are good in the deck, three might be too much, and that one might be better served as a Ravenous Baloth to combat burn.

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He's cool because you can pitch a creature to get him, pitch him to get him, pitch him to get him, and then pitch him to get another creature. Yayyyy.

I'd either leave Rootwalla at 3 or drop it completely. Having multiples is essential.

Some more testing against Solidarity;

Pre-board 3-5
Post-board 2-1;

SB plan
-1 Slitter
-1 Shredder
-1 Orangutan
-1 Feeder
+3 Duress
+1 Caller

Against Rifter;

1 incredibly painful drawn out game - 0

This looks like a very fun deck. I'm planning on putting together.

Just a thought here, have you try Walker of Secret Ways? I might give her a try because it seems like she would allow even more Ninja tricks. I'm goping to test her and will get back to you on it.

One other thing that does trouble me a liitle is, there is really only one way to get Wonder in the yard. Has this ever been a problem? Because it does seem that it is a key pc.

3 Rootwallas is the correct number, any more and they are dead, and any fewer, and you don't draw them naturally.


As for walker of the secret ways, that seems bad to me. It doesn't do anything to change the board position aside from seeing what's in you opponents hand, and you usually don't care anyway, and it's other ability is such a large amount of tempo loss it's not even funny.

Has the interaction between Mesmeric Fiend and Tradewind Rider been a significant impact? That could help you a lot against Rifter and Solidarity, I would think. Am I seeing Mesmeric Fiend correctly? Can you bounce it to keep the card out forever? Is that even good enough in here?

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Originally Posted by Finn

Am I seeing Mesmeric Fiend correctly? Can you bounce it to keep the card out forever? Is that even good enough in here?

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If you bounce it, it leaves play, so the Card will be returned. You would have to bounce it in response to the Fiend Trigger to keep it until the end of game. Call it the slowest Duress ever.

If you want to get cute with discard, use something like Ravenous Rats, or Chittering Rats. They do a better job, and don't require as much to be effective.

Though I'm not sure any of that is necessary.

Have you tested in of the fat ninja's(Ink-eyes servent of the oni, Higuri the still wind)? They both have very usefull abilites and are pretty strong alone.

The fat ninjas don't seem like they would be great as they raise the mana curve alot, and the deck doesn't seem to need them as it can do damage very consistently.

Dirt 2-1

LoLz

Goblins is looking roughly 60%, although unfortunately I lost track of total games.

I tried Ink-Eyes for a short period, but she's damned expensive. Higuri seems
much weaker.

Grats on the win. I still think you should test R. Baloth.

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Originally Posted by MonkeY

Grats on the win. I still think you should test R. Baloth.

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Do you like it over spike feeder? You can always remove one counter from feeder before ninjitsuing it and replaying. Do you need the fat in this deck?

4 mana is also a bit much. Plus, Feeder is also good against Humility.

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

4 mana is also a bit much. Plus, Feeder is also good against Humility.

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But Baloth beats Burn for ya.

Feeder also does that. Also, Humility.