The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UWg
https://i.imgur.com/nyNw69V.jpg
For the more visual people...
Why this deck? History of Control, Philosophy, Brainstorm
So why this deck? Why not Miracles, or some other control variant centered around Delver or Angler?
The long and the short of it is that we want to be more controlling than those decks. Sure, you can miracle your entreat for 5, but them being all 1/1s that get halted on the shores of a moat means you still cannot win.
We are using a building strategy first pioneered by Brian Weissman in the very early years of Magic's history. Back when the only win condition in the deck was a miser's copy of Serra Angel. Or a little bit later when you could only win with the 1-2 copies Kjeldoran Outpost in your entire list.
This deck is built with the spirit of those decks. Our win conditions are 2x Jace & 1x Teferi.
After playing with this deck a good bit, and seeing the work Nate has done with this on his channel, I firmly believe this could be the most skill-intensive brainstorm deck. And the one that might be able to Brainstorm better than any other (with the right pilot).
"Beckett Gem-Mint" Card Selection
There have been figurative mountains written about brainstorm specifically. The usual "legacy" method of utilizing it involves using BSn putting 2 cards you don't want back, and then cracking a fetchland to shuffle away the cards that are not useful for the current moment/matchup.
But the true strength of BS into fetch is options of when you get rid of the extras, and how. Do you want that card on top? Is the second one down pointless or another option? Were you hiding cards in response to a Hymn? The list goes on.
This deck enables what I consider to be the best selection options out of Brainstorming. Our 5 fetchlands are our first set of shuffle effects (and crucible lets us reuse them for quite a long time with the high count of fetchable lands). After that we have both of the Sterling Groves as additional search effects, which combo well with the presence of counterbalance. Not only protecting the backbreaking enchantment, but allowing us to enlightened tutor the proper enchantment to the top of deck to enable our ability to CB counter a spell. Finally, we have the 2 Search for Azcanta. While not necessarily being a 'shuffle' effect post brainstorm, they allow us to clear one of the cards if we so choose. Letting us delay that choice even longer than the opponent's endstep if needed. Once SfA flips, having an impulse-effect to dig for our business, and clear dead cards that we brainstorm-ed or sylvan-ed back to the top is huge.
Our deck is running an 'extra' Brainstorm effect above and beyone the playest of BS and the 2 JtMS. Scroll Rack, while inherently being card disadvantage, allows our selection to be supreme, above and beyond what the 8-10 cantrip decks get to use. Additionally, having rack could arguably be better than top was in the counterbalance world. Allowing us to hide important cards early, and keep interaction in hand for it's uses, or put back on top to flip with Counterbalance. You need only play with the set once to really feel how much more in-control you feel compared to the old Top shenanigans.
The final boon to the card selection power of this deck is Search for Azcanta. We can put a card we want 2 down off the BS, and the situational card on top of it. If we don't need the situational card, we can mill it away with the search. Often it is correct to not flip search for Azcanta as fast as possible. Both of its sides have tremendous value for us, and we want the back side of it to be the nail in the coffin for out opponent in the late game. Either they play a spell and it gets countered, or we get to draw a card from our Azcanta on their endstep.
Throne of the High City has been sidelined for the time being. Having it on the shortlist of cards that we would like to include is probably where it will be fore now. Ideally, it is the card to punish other control decks. But for the time being, Sylvan Library is a much better card to punish them, and we have 2 tutors to help find it in addition to all of our other card selection.
Enjoy the game like a 5 course meal... Slowly.
Alongside Humility + Moat , this deck that focuses around controlling the board through counters and removal. It is plausible that we do need to run 1-2 Supreme Verdicts in the 75. Currently, finding the cut is proving difficult.
We will win a long game. Our card advantage engine is more powerful with the Ancestral Visions and the Future Sight. Our mana advantage is better the longer we go with As Foretolds. We just need to get there.
Conveniently, control provides the answers. Having Moat Humility in G1 can allows us to largely ignore traditional win conditions. Once we resolve them, there are very few main-deck cards in the legacy format that can break that lock up. Which is the current reason to not be running the Supreme Verdicts. We just don't care Anglers, Angels, Elesh Norn, etc.
The density of countermagic, (between 4 og Counterspell, 2 Pierce, 2 Force, & Counterbalance) give us resounding ability to interact on the stack. Coupled with our unique ability (Moat, Humility, Plows, Detention Sphere, Teferi) to not care about a lot of traditional threats, we get the option of deciding to not counter creatures that decks like miracles need to counter. The more often we don't have to counter something, the better a position we are in to leverage our countermagic for the real threats.
Control has been a strategy of magic for almost as long as the game has been around. And as such, there are countless archetypes that incorporate elements of it into another strategy or gameplan. The old control decks of yesteryear had a more focused strategy than modern day control decks: "If you can't do anything, eventually my 1-2 cards will come down and win. So my strategy; is to not let you win."
As for the current sideboard Subject to change
Nate brought an excellent point to mind:
Quote:
"We want every [opponent's] deck to hate their match against us in game 1. And then [in game 2] feel like our sideboard was designed to beat their specific deck."
A lot of people have looked at Compost in question so far. But with it in play, suddenly every discard spell they hit us with is card disadvantage. Assassin's Trophy is an opponent giving us a 3-1 (and you can bet they siding them in after losing to AF, Moat, Humility). An opponent dredging can ancestral us. Storming off with black rituals if feeding us FoW fuel. Sure, it isn't the BEST answer in everyone of those circumstances, but it is a good card in all of those situations. And that is what we want. Our deck shouldn't change what is is after board. Only get better at enforcing its initial strategy. Our semi-enchant build leans into the use of enchantment answers as tutorable cards in the board for G2. This is what separates a good board from a great board. Compost is an example of this. We will win with card advantage. If we make it so that them interacting with us, or pushing their game plan, is giving us advantage, the main parts of our deck will be able to in out.
How many times have you kept a hand that was terrible at doing what your deck wanted to do, but had a sideboard card that you could not win without finding?
This deck eschews this idea. Yes, all the cards are good. But we want the cards to be good at the matchup, and be furthering our strategy. Taking 'time off' to resolve your SB answer feels bad because it doesn't help you win. Just keeps you from losing. There is a difference. Our SB is designed to get us closer to winning. Not just stop us from losing.
And that is why we have chosen to go with enchantment answers throughout the main and sideboard. Yes Surgical is better against lands and dredge. But it is much worse against Shadow and Sultai. Null Rod is good in the brown matchups, but it isn't tutorable, doesn't remove the artifacts, and doesn't pitch to force.
Yes, there will be better options specifically for the meta of decks. But control style decks like this don't have the luxury of only siding to the best decks. We want to beat all of the decks. Our main gameplan is already good against a wide swath of the field.
- Control the early game
- Force the game long
- Win with superior card advantage engines
Ray of Revelation: Miracles/Lands/Enchantress
Flusterstorm: Storm/Reanimator/SnT/SpanishI/Belcher/Tempo shells(better than force)
Chill: Painter(some)/Burn/Ruby/Wish Storm/Sneak [Also better than white options because it pitches to force. Slowing those decks down is more important than life]
Energy Flux: Affinity/Tezz/Painter(basically all lists)/Storm(LEDs)/DnT/Lands
Force of Will: Combo/Prison/Reanimator
Gaea's Blessing: Dredge/Reanimator/Lands/Painter(Can't be milled out)
Compost: Dredge/Reanimator/SultaiX/DeathsShadow/Pox/Storm(some variants, better than Humility, Sight, and StP)
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Reading this decklist got me like
https://i.imgur.com/4EddSxr.gif
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
I ran AF at a Team Constructed (SCG) that basically used planeswalkers, Ancestral Visions, Zuran Orb and Restore Balance. It's a lot of fun, but clunky if you can't get As Foretold online. I tried this out for a long time, actually - it just couldn't break through.
Hoping someone else has success with it.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
I strongly dislike the Green splash. You can get the Gaea's Blessing effects in Blue on both Devious Cover-Up and Stream of Consciousness, and from a land on Mistveil Plains.
One other thing you're missing from "the Deck" is a Browse type effect. Fact or Fiction and something like Thirst for Knowledge both work here, but you need a lot more than one of them.
You're also running too many "cute" one-of. Figure out your plan and run more copies of that. If you go a crucible route you can run singleton Depths/Stage and extra Crucibles, or some man-lands and take an approach similar to Landstill. Or with AF you can just wait for it to ramp up to 7 and then win with Approach of the Second Sun.
But ONE Humility and 4x stp? If you want to do that run more Humility and some DoJ or something.
The deck as listed is pretty incoherent, and your selection is a grand total of 4x Brainstorm. That's not going to cut it. At all.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
One other thing you're missing from "the Deck" is a
Browse type effect. Fact or Fiction and something like Thirst for Knowledge both work here, but you need a lot more than one of them.
I'm sure there is room to improve the deck, but Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin reads pretty similar to browse.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Quote:
Originally Posted by
from Cairo
No, it really, really, really doesn't. The good thing about Browse that a lot of people didn't understand was that it got rid of your deck, so you could start recursioning your graveyard directly into your draws. That was how the deck just destroyed people, it powered up so it was basically Demonic Tutoring from the graveyard every turn in the end game.
That's why I said you needed something like multiple FoF's and TfK's. To burn through the deck so the recursion engine kicks into high gear.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Agree with more Fact or Fiction. Seems like this is the best deck to leverage that card.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UWg
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keepflyin
After playing with this deck a good bit, and seeing the work Nate has done with this on his youtube channel, I firmly believe this could be the most skill-intensive brainstorm deck. And the one that might be able to leverage it better than any other with the right pilot.
+1. This deck looks excellent!
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
I make a motion to officially name this: The Deck As Fuck, because that's the way I interpreted it on first glance.
"How close to 'The Deck' is this?"
"Dude, it's 'The Deck' AS FUCK!"
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Enlightened Tutor should find a home in this archetype. You really want to land AF, and with all of the other one-of enchantment and artifacts, it seems like a good idea.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
I make a motion to officially name this: The Deck As Fuck, because that's the way I interpreted it on first glance.
"How close to 'The Deck' is this?"
"Dude, it's 'The Deck' AS FUCK!"
I did consciously choose the title for the thread for that reason. As Foretold helps fill in the "As Fuck" nicely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
Enlightened Tutor should find a home in this archetype. You really want to land AF, and with all of the other one-of enchantment and artifacts, it seems like a good idea.
So enlightened tutor was a test earlier in the list. We ended up shaving it because of how bad the card disadvantage is early on.
And I agree with a browse-style effect. Something that would actually remove the junk from the deck as we sift through everything.
Nate and I were talking last night, and realized we probably want 1 more wincon in the 75, as well as a couple of answers to resolved problematic non-creature permanents. We were thinking 1 Detention Sphere and 1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria.
Teferi also serves as an additional wincon, lets us tap out for him with force backup, but hold up countermagic on their turn, and 'answers' a resolved jace or something of that sort.
Detention Sphere Gives us an out main board to monk tokens, elementals, or the storm deck that goes for 8ish goblins on turn 1. Its not the best out in the later case, but is is an out in a situation where moat would be too slow.
What do you guys think?
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
Enlightened Tutor should find a home in this archetype. You really want to land AF, and with all of the other one-of enchantment and artifacts, it seems like a good idea.
This 100%, and I really feel that green is probably unnecessary. I like the Zuran Orb/Crucible/Library interaction (where you are gaining life, which trades for cards) but I think the Orb + Crucible lifegain is likely enough. Search for Azcanta seems more than reasonable as a 2 mana enchantment. I would straitaway cut the Library for Enlightened Tutor. I would probably also cut the Gaea's Blessings, and play maybe 1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. The shuffle effect is what you want, but you also would like something that draws you cards and is reasonable to cast at 10 mana. I mean, going to time in each round is a hoot and all, but I'm pretty sure a tournament would be miserable.
This is what I would do:
-1 Sylvan Library
-2 Gaea's Blessing
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Then fix the mana-base for added stability. When you cut to only 2 colors you can easily get 1x Ghost Quarter in there as well, which is another engine with Crucible.
EDIT: What does Throne of the High City even do for this deck?
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
EDIT: What does Throne of the High City even do for this deck?
Be a one-sided Howling Mine if you have them locked with Humility plus Moat. Which means it's probably just win-more.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
"The Deck" style all control is largely a dead concept, because deckbuilding in general has moved way, way, way beyond that. But if I was building this Archetype, with AF, I'd take your list and go: -Gaea's Blessing, -Land Tax, -Scroll Rack, -Sylvan Library, -Restore Balance (it's a complete dead card without AF, and it's situational besides), -Counterbalance, -Zuran Orb (you're a big mana deck without ways to get extra lands into play, you're already running Wasteland, and you can't always count on AF covering for you), -Green Lands, -Throne of the High City, -1 Wasteland, -Compost (what in the actual fuck is this going to do here? get some graveyard hate, jesus).
That clears up 12 slots maindeck and 4 in the sideboard. +1 Teferi, +1 Tithe, +2 FoF, +2 Ancestral Vision, +1 Arid Mesa, +1 Scalding Tarn, +1 Mistveil Plains, +1 Crucible of Worlds, +1 Detention Sphere, +1 Celestial Colonnade/Westvale Abbey/Kjeldoran Outpost
And in all honesty, although I'm not sure where to put it, if you're going AF, I think you really, really, really have to consider Approach of the Second Sun as your win condition. Non-blue decks can't interact with it, and blue decks, you can prep hard for the counter war over the second resolution, then even if they win, simply Mistveil it back into your library and do it again. Should strongly consider a 4th Ancestral Vision, it's bonkers with AF, and pretty decent on its own.
// Instant (19)
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterspell
1x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Tithe
2x Fact or Fiction
1x Tithe
// Sorcery (5)
1x Ancestral Vision
1x Council's Judgment
2x Gaea's Blessing
1x Restore Balance
2x Ancestral Vision
// Enchantment (11)
4x As Foretold
1x Counterbalance
1x Humility
1x Land Tax
1x Moat
2x Search for Azcanta
1x Sylvan Library
1x Detention Sphere
// Artifact (3)
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Scroll Rack
1x Zuran Orb
1x Crucible of Worlds
// Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
// Land (21)
4x Flooded Strand
5x Island
1x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Throne of the High City
1x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
3x Wasteland
1x Mistveil Plains
1x Arid Mesa
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Celestial Colonnade
// Sideboard (15)
4x Chill
4x Compost
4x Any graveyard hate
4x Disenchant
3x Spell Pierce
EDIT: also, Chill? For what? If you're worried about burn or something just run Warmth, at least that doesn't die to REB.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Be a one-sided Howling Mine if you have them locked with Humility plus Moat. Which means it's probably just win-more.
Well in the lock it is great.
But in general, it is a threat in the control matchups that they need to address. The Deck feels pretty hostile towards creatures already, and having the monarch on a land is an uncounterable way to start gaining card advantage, which we can use during out opponent's endstep.
I am open to other options that can fill a similar role of punishing other control builds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
EDIT: also, Chill? For what? If you're worried about burn or something just run
Warmth, at least that doesn't die to REB.
So Chill is there as a force-able card that can matter in the gixis matchups, and storm matchups. While it can be pyro-ed, Life isnt the concern in the same way that letting them cast spells is. While Warmth is enough to win the burn matchup, it might be better to have a sideboard option that is good in others as well.
Part of the reason the original list doesn't have any grave-hate in the board is because of the double Gaea's Blessing in the main, in addition to most of the grave-decks like dredge being stopped by some of the other main deck cards as well as auto-losing to compost.
Surgical Extraction might be a better call, but I'm not as sold on it over other cards that will be good in the situation and still advance our game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
This is what I would do:
-1 Sylvan Library
-2 Gaea's Blessing
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
So Gaea's Blessing isn't in there to mill with the FoF or Searches and get a full reshuffle. While that is a good secondary effect; the primary reason we included it was to allow us to restock the deck with high value cards in the match that may have gotten countered or discarded earlier in the game, without adding back a bunch of useless cards like extraneous fetches.
All of these are just the reasonings behind the choices so far, but I am open to more suggestions.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Nate and I did some pretty dense theory crafting and testing over the weekend, and I will be updating the initial post soon. The biggest change is to increase the Ancestral count to 4, along with shaving the gimmicky cards. Another change to the main board is the inclusion of a 2ed JTMS and a single Teferi,Hod. This sufficiently expands our win conditions for a control deck.
I'll be updating the original post later this evening with the new strategies and list.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Not playing the deck (well, THE deck) but just surfing through the forum an came across this and I can't help thinking that this list screams "play Supreme Verdict".
Has it been considered?
If i get it right, this is a control deck with mana ramp. Blowing their stuff up, uncounterable, and then still having your lands untapped to land the kill looks spicy.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
I tried this deck out last year before the Deathrite ban. Turn 2 As Foretold was very good when it hit, but the deck struggles without it. I'd definitely add Enlightened Tutor, more Ancestral Visions, and look into utility like Tolaria West that can tutor for 0cc spells and 0cc artifacts (Zuran Orb is huge with Restore Balance, and Engineered Explosives works pretty well).
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jander78
So we have added 2 Sterling Groves to the main deck. They protect our AF and other enchants with all the Assassins's Trophy lists about, allow us to search for silver bullets, in particular matchups, and give us an additional way to set the top for counterbalance.
Because of this, we have added a single Future Sight to the main deck. This is to ensure that counterbalance can counter Force of Will when we have a grove in play.
Having Sterling Grove instead of enlightened tutors feels much better. ET is strict card disadvantage, whereas something like Grove has additional utility on the game in the turns before needing to tutor. Furthermore it allows us to hold up alternate colors or basics and still get the ET effect.
We have also added a Detention Sphere to the main board. This gives us just enough time against storm decks to potentially draw it if they are on the play and get 8 or less goblins. Or 10 and we have a swords. Its not a huge out, but it does give us at least a single line. If we are on the play, having the single copy also gives us a sterling grove into sphere line.
It is also a way to be able to remove a resolved JtMS, monk tokens, elemental tokens, etc.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keepflyin
So we have added 2
Sterling Groves to the main deck. They protect our AF and other enchants with all the Assassins's Trophy lists about, allow us to search for silver bullets, in particular matchups, and give us an additional way to set the top for counterbalance.
Because of this, we have added a single Future Sight to the main deck. This is to ensure that counterbalance can counter Force of Will when we have a grove in play.
Future Sight is bad. It's clunky and there's no reason to get overly cute with design space to justify its use in a highly-niche situation like that. Hard or conditional counters work far better.
Quote:
Having Sterling Grove instead of enlightened tutors feels much better. ET is strict card disadvantage, whereas something like Grove has additional utility on the game in the turns before needing to tutor. Furthermore it allows us to hold up alternate colors or basics and still get the ET effect.
Enlightened Tutor gets you As Foretold online as early as turn two. Without acceleration, Grove gets it online by turn four. Grove is also more mana intensive and forces the deck to play green. If Trophy starts seeing more play than Decay, that's a good thing - because it opens up your ability to counter the spell straight-up.
Quote:
We have also added a Detention Sphere to the main board. This gives us just enough time against storm decks to potentially draw it if they are on the play and get 8 or less goblins. Or 10 and we have a swords. Its not a huge out, but it does give us at least a single line. If we are on the play, having the single copy also gives us a sterling grove into sphere line.
Detention Sphere is fine, but is this really the best option against Storm? A single Engineered Explosives can do the same thing and has far more utility in affecting the board state in other match-ups. The only time it would be awkward is if an opponent casts Chalice on zero, but realistically how often is that going to happen?
Quote:
It is also a way to be able to remove a resolved JtMS, monk tokens, elemental tokens, etc.
Explosives handles all of those cards, except really Jace, where other colors like red (for Pyroblast or Red Elemental Blast) work just as fine. Even Pithing Needle works just as well.
Re: The Deck (AF) - Heavy Control UW
This is what I have been playing.
4x Ancestral Vision
3x Ancient Tomb
4x As Foretold
4x Brainstorm
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Flooded Strand
4x Force of Will
3x Island (HOU)
2x Jace the mind sculptor
1x Plains (HOU)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Ponder
2x Restore Balance
2x Mission briefing
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
2x enlightened tutor
2x energy field
3x Rest In Peace
1x supreme verdict
1x Helm of Obedience
Sideboard:
3x flusterstorm
3x surgical extraction
1x zuran orb
1x porphyry nodes
1x detention sphere
1x humility
2x hydroblast
1x supreme verdict
1x back to basics
1x pithing needle
It was trying to be turbo mentor before with Gitaxian probes.
But now with mission briefing, av and af the card advantage is real.
I tried tombs as crystal veins to really lean into restore balance but too cute.
