VineTraders

What is VineTraders?

The deck is based around the amalgam of Bazaar of Bagdad and Serendib Efreet. That amalgam being Bazaar Trademage. So how do we build around the Bazaar of Bagdad effect? Easy. We jam Vengevine, Hollow one and Basking Rootwalla into a tempo-esque shell.

Only having an explosive creature synergy in the deck didn’t feel enough for the deck so adding red to a blue green shell seemed interesting. So what good cards do we get if we splash red? Legacy’s newest superstar, Wrenn and Six. With Wrenn and Six lands like Wasteland, Cephalid Coliseum and Barbarian Ring became more appealing for the deck, alongside with crop rotation. Besides adding another axis of attack to the deck Wrenn and Six does an excellent job with getting more cards into your hand, which is a good thing since Bazaar Trademage is expensive cardwise.

So how does the 75 look like? The person who I brewed this deck with (called Pankhurst here at mtgthesource) and I decided on the following 75:

Main deck:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Bazaar Trademage
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Crop Rotation
4 Daze
3 Wrenn and Six
4 Force of Will
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Winter Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Cindervines
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Magmatic Sinkhole

We are currently testing this list but so far it has been a lot of fun and it presents interesting boardstates and lines of play.
Other cards that the deck is currently considering for sideboard/main:
Narset, Parter of Veils
Dack Fayden
Hooting Mandrills
True-Name Nemesis/Vendilion Clique

We just wanted to share what we’re working on and we hope that more people feel the urge to jam some Vengevines and Hollow Ones after reading this. Also feel free to give feedback if you think that something could improve the deck. We want as many as possible to become a VineTrader!

have you considered magus of the bazaar?

You could also consider the fauna shaman/mana dork plan.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

have you considered magus of the bazaar?

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Yes and so far it doesn't seem good enough! Besides being a 3/4 creature with flying, Bazaar Trademage is also the first creature spell that you cast that turn which makes it much easier to trigger the Vengevines from the graveyard. (Because Hollow One will cost 0 to cast after the ability and discarded Basking Rootwallas will be cast using madness, also triggering Vengevines).
It's an interesting thought for sure. I could see a version trying that or Dack Fayden.

The trader is really good actually. How quickly does this deck usually kill?

Red splash for just Wrenn and Six and some sideboard stuff seems like a wasted splash. Faithless Looting would slot into this deck very very well. If you're committed to the xerox plan, you could play Careful Study as well.

Personally I tested Bazaar Trademage in a UG Madness shell, pretty similar with your list, and I always felt it was underwhelming. Cards like Wild Mongrel or Noose Constrictor always felt superior.

Intuition is also very good in this kind of deck.

At moment we’re playing ponder over looting and study. I believe it to be better in the deck, even if those spells and the UG Madness creature package works wonders sometimes with Vengevines etc. Ponder is generally better post-board, it’s not card negative, which is a real factor when your gameplan is playing a card that on resolution leaves you with less cards in hand, and finally it is better (in my opinion) against discard decks.

Fauna Shaman/Wild Mongrel/Wild Constrictor is on the radar as well. Most games that I’ve played with the deck I’ve disrupted my opponent enough to then finally land my 3 mana Trademage and end up with 11+ power in play and this is something that discard outlets can do as well but digging the extra 2 cards and having a 3/4 flying creature had been superior so far!

How would these lists with these cards look like if you built them? Would be interesting to see and also see if there are certain parts of the deck that would be upgrades to this one!

I love to see the deck evolve and just came to offer a perspective, it's a bit unstructured but hopefully some useful ideas or input shine through. I am a little unconvinced about the usefulness of running Hollow One and Basking Rootwalla, how often are those good and how often do they seem bad?

I've been following the BG Vengevine thread and trying to brew along those lines too (with ChristoferV even at times, although very briefly ;) - if you can drop t1 Putrid Imp (or the slower Lotleth Troll who has the upside of regenerating which Grixis decks often can't deal with, though t2-3 already feels slow without haste if you want to be a fast deck) into a mix of Rootwalla, Vengevine and Hollow Ones that seems great, it's a very quick clock, but putting the 4/4's and 1/1's into play on t3 from a Trademage seems just too slow. Which means you must have good ways to slow down opponents, like discard or taxing effects. I don't know, that's just a feeling, but it is kind of emphasized by the crashing footfalls and shardless agent (and Arcanist, I think) synergy which seems better, no need to run the seemingly bad Rootwalla (maybe it's better than it looks, never played it yet). It's hard to evaluate these cards and strategies without playtesting them, but two 4/4's with trample in one card offers both card advantage and evasion, both great advantages, while the hollow one offers neither - it even has the disadvantage of being an artifact which means getting eaten for breakfast by Kolaghan's Command. Actually Shardless Agent has nice synergy with Vengevine, but I imagine you already considered that route. But Crashing Footfalls doesn't trigger Vengevine so maybe not go that way, I don't know...

Personally I decided to go the Intuition-Vengevine route, using value control creatures like Snapcaster, Clique and Coatl to trigger it... They are all great by themselves and I feel like the Vengevines should provide enough beatdown and grindy recursion for [edit: getting an edge in] a control deck. Also using Therapy and FoW to slow opponent down.. Very much work in progress though.

Keep up the good work!

Is that enough graveyard fodder to consistently get value from Trademage? How bad are those cards in hand (Rootwalla, Vengevine, Hollow One) when you don't have a Trademage to resolve? Do you have to hardcast them? Or just leave them in hand as dead cards waiting to hit a Trademage? Would another discard outlet be beneficial?

There's another thread on BG Vengevine/Hollow One based on a higher threat density but without blue cards. That thread has evolved into Hogaak combo like Modern, but maybe some of the core ideas could be useful for VineTraders.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...engevine/page8

You don't have the zombie count to leverage Gravecrawler, and cards like Prized Amalgam and Bloodghast don't trigger Vengevine, but would 2-3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis be good? Even outside the combo it's just a nasty Delve threat.

As a back-up discard outlet, instead of Magus of the Bazaar what about Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? It won't be as good an enabler as Trademage, but it will give you another way to discard Rootwallas and co. for profit without being card disadvantage, it's a blue card for FoW, and the planeswalker will be relevant sometimes.

Maybe it's too slow, but... did you consider Fauna Shaman?

Am i nuts or should Brainstorm/Ponder be Faithless Looting/Careful Study?

I've spent a lot of time trying to make decks like this work, and here's the main issues you're not dealing with, and the reason these have never really taken off.

1. You're playing a graveyard based deck that's slower than Dredge and slower than Reanimator.
2. You're playing a graveyard based deck that wants cards to sit in the 'yard doing nothing for longer than Dredge and Reanimator.
3. You don't have a compelling reason to run a deck that's vulnerable to everything Dredge and Reanimator are but is also much, much slower, and doesn't have the kind of random T1-2 wins that keep those decks working in the format in the face of extreme hate.
4. You're playing the Xerox shell in a deck that isn't tempo oriented, so you can't take advantage of that tempo as well, because you're actually playing a slow, easily disrupted combo for your aggression.

I'd love to see a deck like this work and be good, but you really need to answer the question of why your deck, which is worse at being Xerox than Xerox is, and worse at being Dredge than Dredge is, exists. What role does it fill?

Anyway, that's always been my experience with decks like this, they're the Bernie Kosar of MTG. It's really good at being just good enough to lose to the tier 1 stuff.

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

I've spent a lot of time trying to make decks like this work, and here's the main issues you're not dealing with, and the reason these have never really taken off.

1. You're playing a graveyard based deck that's slower than Dredge and slower than Reanimator.
2. You're playing a graveyard based deck that wants cards to sit in the 'yard doing nothing for longer than Dredge and Reanimator.
3. You don't have a compelling reason to run a deck that's vulnerable to everything Dredge and Reanimator are but is also much, much slower, and doesn't have the kind of random T1-2 wins that keep those decks working in the format in the face of extreme hate.
4. You're playing the Xerox shell in a deck that isn't tempo oriented, so you can't take advantage of that tempo as well, because you're actually playing a slow, easily disrupted combo for your aggression.

I'd love to see a deck like this work and be good, but you really need to answer the question of why your deck, which is worse at being Xerox than Xerox is, and worse at being Dredge than Dredge is, exists. What role does it fill?

Anyway, that's always been my experience with decks like this, they're the Bernie Kosar of MTG. It's really good at being just good enough to lose to the tier 1 stuff.

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I don't understand your assessment.
The only card I'd consider "graveyard-based" is Vengevine and maybe Wrenn and Six (which is not key). This deck does not struggle as much with Rest in Peace or LotV as the other dedicated GY decks.
It runs 8 counterspells, so it does not need explosive starts.
Vengevine, Hollow One and Rootwalla are tempo plays, because you usually pay less mana than appropriate, why do you think it's not tempo oriented?

It's like saying decks running Snapcaster Mage are GY based and are therefore unplayable because they are slow.

I think this kind of deck can work but it remains to be seen whether Bazaar Trademage will make it competitive. It's a very good piece for this deck because it's both a discard outlet for Vengevines and a creature to trigger those Vengevines. It allows free Hollow One's by itself. The big issue is that you are functionally down a card after playing it unless you are gassing up with Vengevines. My biggest issue (in Modern) was that there wasn't enough discard fodder in R/G. Black gives the most synergistic elements, but 4 colors isn't really ideal. I think Hogaak can be that extra value in the graveyard, especially because he can be cast off of green creatures (Birds of Paradise, Rootwalla, Vengevine.) I don't think the deck can handle 4 copies, but I would start with 3 and go from there.

Delve threats seem to be very good here, most likely Hooting Mandrils. In modern it was almost always a 4/4 trampler for G. I also don't hate Nimble Mongoose for this deck specifically because it will be a 3/3 easily by turn 3 and supports the aggressive plan. I'm not sure if Shardless Agent is worth playing in here, probably not. I think the only 3-mana plays you want are Trademages.

I read back through the thread and saw the reasoning on BStorm/Ponder over Looting/Study. It makes sense in the long game. I just know that in modern any hand starting with Looting was leagues better than any other combination. I would probably favor Study to pitch to Force of Will, which should allow for explosive starts. Then you can fill in the other 8 slots with Brainstorm.

Wren and Six is a cool new card, but isn't Loam just strictly better here? Loam doesn't provide removal (outside of Barbarian Ring) but actively feeds your graveyard for Vengevine plays and delve potential. A card that is often seen to glue together Vengevine and Hollow One is Street Wraith, but with Loam you could easily play Edge of Autumn as a free cycle effect that feeds delve, saves Loam from Surgical at instant speed, and in a pinch gets you a critical 3rd land for Trademage. It's possibly too slow for Legacy standards, but it seems like this is going for a tempo plan, not a combo plan. That means explosive early turns backed with disruption like Daze, Force, Wasteland. The upside to this from dredge is that you can do all of your graveyard shit in one turn, so if you find a window their hate can be nullified.

Lastly, I don't think it's a terrible idea to attempt some number of Golgari Grave Trolls, especially if Hogaak is tested. It should super-charge your delve spells (should you include them) and set you up for multiple Vengevines.

EDIT: I'm really scratching my head on the lack of Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire. It seems like a free-roll synergy that really supports a grindy plan. Tempo is what you're going for, but once you start going the route of Loam and Colisseum I think it could be pretty effective at killing blockers/getting damage through. I don't think you could do it alongside Wasteland without making the mana-base more fragile, but it may be a better route of disruption. I know Wasteland can sometimes be a liability in some metagames.

Just some thoughts.

I played a deck pre-hollow one and such with rootwalla, smugglers copter, vengevines, and stuff that felt somewhat powerful. I think the Mana base was Deathrite Fueled though. Can't remember what thread I posted it in, but copter was pretty sick since it can give your guys a sort of "haste" and it gets vines in the yard and gives free rootwallas while making otherwise dead rootwallas on the board a reason to live

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I played a deck pre-hollow one and such with rootwalla, smugglers copter, vengevines, and stuff that felt somewhat powerful. I think the Mana base was Deathrite Fueled though. Can't remember what thread I posted it in, but copter was pretty sick since it can give your guys a sort of "haste" and it gets vines in the yard and gives free rootwallas while making otherwise dead rootwallas on the board a reason to live

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Wow, Copter is a good find. I like what it does with Nobles if you don't need the mana, and even attacks for 4 that way. Rootwallas have always been anemic as threats but necessary as 'free' creatures for Vengevines. I like that Copter changes that math. If Deathrite fueled the mana-base, Nobles should be enough (but with Grove/Fires I would opt for Birds of Paradise for the red mana.)

Dunno if you guys are on board with it, but I think aether vial is probably pretty good here.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Wow, Copter is a good find. I like what it does with Nobles if you don't need the mana

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nothing?

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Originally Posted by [reptiLe]

nothing?

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Tap the Noble to activate the Copter, attack for 4 with exalted, loot. Is that enough 'nothing' for you?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Tap the Noble to activate the Copter, attack for 4 with exalted, loot. Is that enough 'nothing' for you?

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How exactly are you planning on buffing noble to activate copter?

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Originally Posted by [reptiLe]

How exactly are you planning on buffing noble to activate copter?

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DOH! I need to RTFC, thanks for the correction. I thought it just needed to be a creature, not a creature with power 1 or more. I apologize for my ignorant, and smug, response.

Lol. Yeah forgot DRS having that extra power was good to crew copter. Maybe copter is just bad then. Fetching out Dryad Arbor is a fun surprise copter block though if you want to play that

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Lol. Yeah forgot DRS having that extra power was good to crew copter. Maybe copter is just bad then. Fetching out Dryad Arbor is a fun surprise copter block though if you want to play that

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I was thinking the same; Misty Rainforest and some number of Wooded Foothills could accomplish this. I think even just Rootwalla crewing the Copter is enough to get some number of Copters into the deck.