[Deck] A Cold Day in Hell (Breach Freeze)

A Cold Day in Hell: Underworld Breach Combo
AKA: BUB (Brainfreeze Underworld Breach), Breach Freeze

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...6412&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...3255&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...7599&type=card



Old thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...e-Brain-Freeze
Name credit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

EDIT: Regarding naming the deck, what about "Breach Freeze"? "A Cold Day in Hell"?

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1. Introduction

Ever since Underworld Breach from Theros: Beyond Death was first spoiled, players have been brewing decks to break it. The card looks like Yawgmoth's Will for only 2 mana... as long as you have cards in graveyard to pay the escape cost. On its own it can do some cool things but is kept in check by the escape costs. But combined with Brain Freeze (which puts 3 cards in your GY for each spell cast) and a free reusable mana source like Lion's Eye Diamond or Lotus Petal, it creates a deterministic loop that puts your whole library into your graveyard and generates enough mana and storm to cast any of the spells you need to win!

As soon as this interaction was discovered, combo brewers went to work. Before the card's release, many early brewing discussions took place on multiple platforms: Discord, Reddit, CFB, MTGGoldfish, and here on TheSource. This primer covers hopefully most of the development that took place here on TheSource.


2. Why Play Breach Combo?

Always wanted to play Dredge & Storm at the same time?
Like winning with no library and no cards in hand?
Want a change from the usual storm decks?
Sick of passing the turn with 1/1 Goblin tokens?
Enjoy explosive combo decks and sequencing around subtle stack interactions?
Get off on going off at 5 life the turn before opponent would win?
Want to KNOW you can go off and not worry about fizzling after casting 9 spells and wasting 10 minutes?
This is the deck for you!

The main lines are deterministic storm kills. Unlike most storm decks (ANT, TES, High Tide, Spanish Inquisition), fizzling isn't a thing. You don't need to hope to chain into the right cards to win. Once you start going off, you go off (barring disruption).

Early criticisms of this deck focused on the fact that it's a 3-card combo and vulnerable to a lot of hate (grave hate, storm hate, artifact hate, enchantment kill, counters, anti-mill, hexproof). On paper, that looks too flimsy to put up consistent wins against tier decks, especially when the combo bar is set by decks like B/R Reanimator, ANT and TES. The Epic Storm blog said this deck was maybe cute for the Johnny player but not viable for Legacy (Haters Gonna Hate: https://www.theepicstorm.com/card-re...rworld-breach/)... then AnziD used Jeskai Breach to beat BryantCook's TES on the opening weekend's Legacy Showcase Challenge, steamrolling the Swiss with 1st seed and only losing in the top 8 to the MIRROR MATCH with MentalMisstep, who won the event. MentalMisstep proved this deck has chops going undefeated all weekend. Since then, Breach combo has consistently put up numbers online, showing it is a force to be reckoned with under a good pilot!

The deck can be hard to play, with subtle sequencing and deck construction choices making the difference between wins and losses. On top of that, opponents are smartening up on how to hate us out. YMMV. But the performance ceiling is very high! This deck is able to run the Xerox package, tutors, and a lot of answers to hate, giving it a lot of resilience to recover and go off out of nowhere! We can combo off as early as turn 1 with protection. After being disrupted, we can win with nothing but 2 mana and a topdecked Underworld Breach!



3. The Escape Mechanic

Underworld Breach lets you cast ANY spell in your graveyard as long as you pay both the mana cost and exile 3 cards to Escape. Unlike Yawgmoth's Will, the card goes back to the graveyard, so you can cast the same card over and over again. Escape is a very powerful mechanic as long as you have spare cards in the graveyard.

We can fill our graveyard using:
- fetchlands
- cantrips
- self-milling (pre-combo Brain Freeze @ self)
- cheap spells

Storm count accumulates on the opponent's turn too, counting the opponent's spells and any counter wars you have, so EOT Brain Freeze can often put 12 or more cards in your graveyard for 2 mana, letting you untap with enough gas to go off.



4. How the Basic Combo Works

You can go off with as little as 2 mana, as early as turn 1!

Cast Lion's Eye Diamond for 0
Cast Underworld Breach for 1R
Crack LED for UUU, discarding your hand (including Brain Freeze)
Escape Brain Freeze, paying UU and exiling 3 cards from graveyard. Mill yourself for 9+.
Escape LED, exiling 3 cards from GY
Crack LED for UUU
Escape Brain Freeze, paying UU and exiling 3 cards from graveyard. Mill yourself for 15+.
Escape LED, exiling 3 cards from GY
Crack LED for UUU
Escape Brain Freeze, paying UU and exiling 3 cards from graveyard. Mill yourself for 21+.
Escape LED, exiling 3 cards from GY

Now most of your library is your graveyard. You have at least storm 8 and UUU floating. At this point you can use any win condition:
1) Keep building storm and Brain Freeze opponent to death
2) Brain Freeze the rest of your library and cast Thassa's Oracle
3) Use LED to make RRR, escape Burning Wish for Grapeshot, cast it from hand, then escape Grapeshot.
4) Use LEDs to make 6-7 red mana and cast Lightning Bolt at the opponent over and over (this one is slow and resource-intensive)



5. The Deck: Core Shell

Breach combo has only been in Legacy since Jan 2020, so there are still a lot of variations seeing play. The core combo is in UR and only requires about 40 slots. The other 20-ish are open to customization. Jeskai (UWR), Temur (RUG), Grixis (RUB) and artifact-heavy versions have all put up results.


CORE 40-45
//Mana: 19-21
9-10 fetchlands
5-7 Island-heavy mix of basics & duals
4 Lotus Petal

//Combo: 12
4 Underworld Breach
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brain Freeze

//Cantrips: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

//Wincons: 1-4
0-1 Thassa's Oracle
0-3 Burning Wish
0-1 Grapeshot
0-2 Lightning Bolt


FLEX SLOTS 15-20
4-10 Card Selection
7-13 Protection
0-4 Fast Mana


Most of the builds that have emerged fit this general structure. This shell goes off turn 2-3 consistently. The choices for the flex slots will determine things like consistency-speed tradeoff and resilience to beat different answers from the opponent. There are no universal best choices. Different choices will perform better against different metagames and different hate. Magic is an interactive game. The flex slots and sideboard are where we get to choose our interaction.


FLEX SLOTS in UR MAIN COLORS
//Card selection: 4-10
0-4 Preordain
0-4 Thought Scour
0-4 Gamble
0-4 Intuition
0-4 Faithless Looting
0-2 Tome Scour

//Protection: 7-13
0-4 Force of Will
0-3 Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm / Pyroblast
0-2 Defense Grid
0-2 Pact of Negation
0-2 Force of Negation
0-3 Chain of Vapor
0-4 Daze

//Fast Mana: 0-4
0-4 Rite of Flame

//Sideboard (not including Wishboard or splashes): 7-15
0-3 Chain of Vapor
0-2 Spell Pierce
0-1 Flusterstorm
0-2 Pyroblast
0-2 Surgical Extraction
0-1 Burning Wish
0-2 Force of Negation
0-2 Brazen Borrower / Echoing Truth

//Burning Wish Wishboard: 4-8
1 Grapeshot
1 Tome Scour
0-1 Void Snare
0-1 Sevinne's Reclamation
0-1 Infernal Tutor
0-1 Shenanigans / Meltdown / Pulverize
0-1 Reverent Silence
0-1 Massacre
0-1 Pyroclasm
0-1 Empty the Warrens
0-1 Echo of Eons
0-1 Fragmentize



6. The Deck: Splashes

JESKAI (UWR)
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...3489&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...1883&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...5360&type=card

Reasons to play white:
-Enlightened Tutor package
-Silence effects
-Mentor plan B
-Serenity and other disenchants

Jeskai is the most prevalent version of the deck. MentalMisstep should be credited with popularizing it, though we had been developing a very similar Jeskai build here on TheSource before that. The Jeskai version uses the 1 cmc instant Enlightened Tutor to help assemble the combo and find answers to hate. There's a singleton Grinding Station, which can replace Brain Freeze in the combo chain and can be found with ETutor (Brain Freeze can't). Jeskai uses a protection suite of counterspells and Silence effects, which provide a sheild to go off without disruption. Monastery Mentor allows a postboard plan B of beatdown, once they board out their removal for combo hate.


The early Jeskai builds with ETutor used the following shell:

UR CORE 41
//Core Lands: 16
10 fetchlands
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

//Core Spells: 24
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Underworld Breach
4 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

//Win Condition: 1
0-1 Thassa's Oracle
0-1 Grapeshot

JESKAI 14
//Card Selection: 7
4 Preordain
3 Enlightened Tutor

//Backup Combo Piece: 1
1 Grinding Station

//Protection: 6
4 Force of Will
2 Orim's Chant

FLEX 5
//Other Cards: 5
0-2 Silence
0-2 Spell Pierce
0-2 Pact of Negation
0-2 Force of Negation
0-1 Daze
0-1 Flusterstorm
0-1 Enlightened Tutor
0-1 Seal of Cleansing
0-1 Seal of Removal
0-1 Defense Grid
0-1 Teferi, Time Raveler
0-2 Sevinne's Reclamation
0-3 Burning Wish

//Sideboard: 15
2-3 Serenity
0-4 Monastery Mentor
0-4 Swords to Plowshares
0-2 Silence / Abeyance
0-2 Wear // Tear
0-3 Chain of Vapor
0-1 Force of Negation
0-2 Pyroblast
0-2 Spell Pierce
0-1 Pithing Needle
0-1 Silent Gravestone
0-1 Seal of Cleansing



JESKAI INTUITION (UWR Intuition)

By late Feburary the Jeskai Intuition builds gained popularity, cutting ETutor for an Intuition package and card advantage. The main advantages of this build are not having card disadvantage to ETutor, not having to run some suboptimal slots to have ETutor targets, more card advantage (Predict), and a stronger Mentor SB plan B. This strategy was created by Rodrigo Togores and popularized by AnziD.

It uses the following shell:

UR CORE 39
//Core Lands: 15
9 fetchlands
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

//Core Spells: 23
3 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Underworld Breach
4 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

//Win Condition: 1
0-1 Lightning Bolt
0-1 Grapeshot

JESKAI INTUITION 15
//Card Selection: 8
4 Preordain
2 Predict
1 Intuition
1 Sevinne's Reclamation

//Protection: 7
4 Force of Will
2 Orim's Chant
1 Teferi, Time Raveler

FLEX 6
//Other Cards: 6
0-2 Spell Pierce
0-1 Orim's Chant
0-1 Silence
0-1 Flusterstorm
0-1 Lightning Bolt
0-1 Teferi, Time Raveler
0-1 Intuition
0-1 Predict
0-2 Thought Scour
0-1 Lotus Petal
0-1 fetch


//Sideboard: 15
3-4 Monastery Mentor
3-4 Swords to Plowshares
2-3 Serenity
2-3 Wear // Tear
0-2 Silence
0-2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
0-2 Pyroblast
0-1 Flusterstorm
0-1 Vendilion Clique
0-1 Brazen Borrower
0-1 Chain of Vapor
0-1 Snow-Covered Plains


EOT Intuition for Sevinne's Reclamation, Underworld Breach and Lion's Eye Diamond is enough to go off no matter what card they give you (LED + Intuition can be used midcombo to grab Brain Freeze). This compactness frees up space to board in more cards in game 2/3 and improve draw quality instead of going all-in on the combo.


TEMUR (RUG)
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...6952&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...4403&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...2316&type=card

Reasons to play green:
-Veil of Summer
-Reverent Silence for Wishboard

The RUG version has seen the most success from Jbinder (clone103). It's primarily UR, splashing green for Veil of Summer. By staying in UR it has more stable mana than other multicolor versions, fetching basics Islands most games. This also makes it easier to support Force of Will (higher blue count) and Spell Pierce (basic Island open more often). RUG gets its tutoring power from Burning Wish. The Wishboard contains a win condition, a Brain Freeze replacement (Tome Scour), a way to find Underworld Breach (Infernal Tutor, Sevinne's Reclamation), and answers to hate. This lets Burning Wish function much like ETutor in the Jeskai build, without the card disadvantage but costing more mana.

//Maindeck:
3-4 Veil of Summer
3-4 Burning Wish

//Sideboard:
1 Reverent Silence




GRIXIS (RUB)
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...5969&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...7308&type=card

Reasons to play black:
-discard
-Infernal Tutor

The Grixis version has seen less discussion on TheSource. Discard gives perfect information and a powerful proactive way to interact with opponent's hate, though it can be too slow on the draw and can be bad in a metagame full of Veil of Summer. Infernal Tutor finds any card in the deck without card disadvantage, but forces you to go all-in by cracking LED. Grixis colors lack Veil/Silence effects or ways to remove enchantments, which is a liability in these colors and opens you up to more hate.

//Maindeck:
4 Thoughtseize
0-4 Infernal Tutor
0-4 Wishclaw Talisman
0-4 Duress / Inquisition of Kozilek
0-4 Dark Ritual
0-1 Memory Sluice

//Sideboard:
0-4 Dark Confidant
0-1 Massacre
0-2 Dystopia
0-2 Plague Engineer




4 COLOR (RUbg or RUbw)

Since Grixis lacks the same anti-hate options that green and white offer, some builds opt to go 4 colors to have the best of both. This allows you to play Thoughtseize with Enlightened Tutor and Silence effects and Serenity, or Thoughtseize and Infernal Tutor with Veil of Summer and Abrupt Decay. That gives you the best of all colors, with the drawback of having a more vulnerable manabase.


ECHO (Artifact-heavy)

//Maindeck:
3-4 Echo of Eons
3-4 Mox Opal
0-4 Gamble
0-4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
0-4 Narset, Parter of Veils
0-3 Chrome Mox
0-4 Riddlesmith
0-4 Ovalchase Daredevil
0-4 Mishra's Bauble / Urza's Bauble

This build is a hybrid with the Echo of Eons storm combo decks, designed to be faster and more explosive. It has an alternate "win" through Echo of Eons + Narset, Parter of Veils drawing you 7 cards and removing the opponent's hand. The Riddlesmith + Ovalchase combo also lets you draw through the deck and generate storm just by casting 0 cmc artifacts. These builds have the advantages and drawbacks of other Echo of Eons decks. It can sometimes win explosively on turn 1, but other times you can mulligan the opponent into a better 7 while giving yourself a dud hand. This version maximizes the SPEED end of the speed-consistency tradeoff from the flex slots, while most other versions focus on consistency.


EMRY STOMPY (Artifact-heavy)

//Maindeck:
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
3-4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble / Urza's Bauble
2-4 Sevinne's Reclamation
2-4 Teferi, Time Raveler
0-4 Chalice of the Void
0-4 Ancient Tomb

This build uses Emry and 0cc artifacts, playing more of a self-mill game to dig into key pieces instead of tutoring for them. Then it uses Emry and Sevinne's Reclamation to get combo pieces into play. These builds often run 0 cantrips and maindeck Chalice of the Void to disrupt the opponent. Chalice @ 1 stops a lot of problems like Spell Pierce, Surgical Extraction, Crop Rotation, Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus...



7. Winning Decklists

Breach combo, especially the Jeskai build, has put up consistent tournament results online every week since Underworld Breach became Legacy legal!

Online

• MentalMisstep (UWR) - 1st place MTGO Legacy Prelim, Jan 25th 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24435&d=370763&f=LE
• MentalMisstep (UWR) - 1st place MTGO Legacy Challenge, Jan 26th 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...sstep_st_place
• AnziD (UWR) - Top 8 MTGO Legacy Challenge (7-2), Jan 26th 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...anzid_th_place
• Ultimar (Echo) - 12th MTGO Legacy Challenge, Jan 26th 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...timar_th_place
  
• Jbinder (RUG) - MTGO 5-0: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2705596#paper
• Samu_27 (URwb) - MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...-01-25#samu__-
• AronGomu (URwb) - MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...-25#arongomu_-
• MmillanB (UWR) - MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...-25#mmillanb_-
• spellholdgames (UR) - MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ellholdgames_-
  
  
• AronGomu (UWR) - 5th place MTGO Legacy Challenge, Feb 2nd 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ngomu_th_place
• SoulStrong (UWR) - 7th place MTGO Legacy Challenge, Feb 2nd 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...trong_th_place
• MartinMedMitten (Echo / Riddlesmith) - Top 16 MTGO Legacy Challenge, Feb 2nd 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...itten_th_place
• Oddball (UWR) - Top 16 MTGO Legacy Challenge, Feb 2nd 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...dball_th_place
  
• AronGomu (UWR) - 6th place MTGO Legacy Challenge, Feb 9th 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ngomu_th_place
• AnziD (UWR) - Top 16 MTGO Legacy Challenge, Feb 9th 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...anzid_th_place
• Todeshort (UWR) - Top 16 MTGO Legacy Challenge, Feb 9th 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...horst_th_place
  
• Jbinder (RUG) - MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...-02-15#clone_-
• Ultimar (Emry Stompy) - MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...2-15#ultimar_-
• MM_17 (UWR) - MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...20-02-15#mm__-
• Gul_Dukat (RUB) - MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...15#gul_dukat_-
  
• WonderPreaux (4C ANT) - 3rd place MTGO Legacy Challenge, Feb 16th 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...reaux_rd_place
• SoulStrong (UWR) - 10th place MTGO Legacy Challenge, Feb 16th 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...trong_th_place
  
• Gul_Dukat (RUB) - 1st MTGO Preliminary: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24685&d=372686&f=LE
  
• Sarusta (UWR Intuition) - 4th place MTGO Legacy Challenge, Feb 23rd 2020: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...rusta_th_place
  
• AnziD (UWR Intuition) - MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...-02-29#anzid_-
• thinks (Grixis Delver) - MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...02-29#thinks_-
  
• WhiteFaces (UWR Intuition) - 1st place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 1 2020 https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...faces_st_place
• Iwouldliketorespond (UWR Intuition) - 2nd place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 1 2020 https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...spond_nd_place
• ziofrancone (UWR Intuition) - 5th place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 1 2020 https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ncone_th_place
• DankConfidant (UWR Intuition) - 11th place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 1 2020 https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...idant_th_place
• The Atog Lord (RUG Snowko) - 12th place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 1 2020 https://magic.wizards.com/en/article..._lord_th_place
• Maxtortion (UWR Intuition) - 15th place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 1 2020 https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...rtion_th_place
  
• jtl005 (UWR Intuition) - 4th place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 8 2020 https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...llrad_st_place
• Sharkcaster Mage (UWR Intuition) - 5th place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 8 2020
• ziofrancone (UWR Intuition) - 7th place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 8 2020
• AnziD (UWR Intuition) - 11th place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 8 2020
• Samu_27 (UWR Intuition) - 12th place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 8 2020
• StormCount10 (UWR Intuition) - 15th place MTGO Legacy Showcase, Mar 8 2020

Paper

• Claudio Bonanni (Grixis Echo) - 1st place (36 players), Feb 2nd 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24596&d=372030&f=LE
• Stephen Conway (UWR) - 2nd place (23 players), Feb 9th 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24598&d=372052&f=LE
• Mattias Anderson (UWR) - 1st place (16 players), Feb 9th 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24597&d=372046&f=LE
• Antoine Dambron (UWR) - Top 8 (154 players), Feb 9th 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24584&d=371922&f=LE
• Seth Yandrofski (Emry Stompy) - Top 8 (48 players), Feb 9th 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24576&d=371864&f=LE
• Hanlin X (UWR) - 1st place (11 players), Feb 11th 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24704&d=372823&f=LE
  
• Dennis Kampelmann (UWR Intuition) - 4th place (88 players), Feb 15th 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24703&d=372819&f=LE
• Nicola Guidi (URwb) - 3rd place (33 players), Feb 16th 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24732&d=373040&f=LE
• Dennis Aufermann (UWR Intuition) - Top 8 (43 players), Feb 16th 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24667&d=372545&f=LE
• Jay Carter (UWR Intuition) - 4th place (34 players), Feb 23rd 2020: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24780&d=373416&f=LE
• Anuraag Das (UWR Intuition) - 8th @ Dice City Games Open, Feb 24th 2020: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2794649#paper
  
• ESG (UWR) - 1st place Leap Day 1K (6 rounds + Top8), Feb 29th 2020: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...n-Snohomish-WA
• Michael Keller (4C) - Top 4 in Legacy 2K at From the Vault Syracuse NY, Feb 29th 2020:

8. Playing Around Hate

Once you get used to executing the basic line, it becomes autopilot. It's a deterministic line that will eventually win. Most of the decisions piloting this deck come down to assembling the combo and playing around hate. We can beat hate with a combination of deckbuilding choices and sequencing choices.

We are vulnerable to grave hate, storm hate, artifact/enchantment hate, and countermagic. This section covers some strategies and card choices to beat them.


Grave Hate

Leyline of the Void/Rest in Peace: We obviously cannot do anything with these cards in play, so we need to find bounce or enchantment removal before we can fill the graveyard or go off. Leyline is the reason why it's important to have tutorable enchantment kill (Burning Wish -> Reverent Silence, Enlightened Tutor -> Seal of Cleansing/Serenity).

Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus/Nihil Spellbomb: These cards can interrupt us mid-combo, but they only get one shot to blow. They have to play them at sorcery speed and leave them on the board, so we see them coming far in advance and can dig for an answer. We can try to force their hand by playing artifact kill, bounce, or Pithing Needle. That can force them to activate at a suboptimal time. Then we can Brain Freeze ourselves and win.

Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog: This can blow us out at instant speed, like Crypt effects, except we can't stop it with Pithing Needle or artifact kill and we can't see it on the battlefield. As a rule, we should counter any Crop Rotations the opponent tries to resolve on our combo turn. Silence effects and Defense Grid prevent Crop Rotation, but Veil of Summer does not.

Knight of the Reliquary/Elvish Reclaimer into Bojuka Bog: Similar as above, except it's a permanent we can see on the battlefield. We can Pithing Needle, kill, or bounce the creature to force their hand before we have much in the graveyard.

Grafdigger's Cage: This card stops us from escaping cards, effectively turning off Underworld Breach. We can try to counter it or remove it with artifact kill or bounce.

Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre: They will try to exile LED or Brain Freeze in the graveyard to interrupt the combo. We can dodge some of this with sequencing!

Cast LED
Cast Breach
Crack LED for UUU
Escape LED (you never pass priority with LED in grave, so they can't target it)
Escape Brain Freeze (if they try to target BF while LED is on the stack, you already have UUU in pool and can respond by casting BF)
Crack LED for UUU
Escape LED
Escape Brain Freeze
etc...

By going off like that, we take away windows of interaction from the opponent. We should always sequence like that as long as there are enough cards in graveyard to escape LED first before Brain Freeze. This pattern also leaves U floating at all times to in case we need to escape Spell Pierce to counter Surgical or some other spell. Surgical can be countered (e.g. escape Pact of Negation for 0 mana) or stopped proactively with Silence effects or discard

We can also beat Surgical effects with redundancy. Lotus Petal can form a deterministic loop with Underworld Breach + Brain Freeze, so we can win even if they extract LED. If they extract Brain Freeze, some builds can win with a Grinding Station loop or a Tome Scour loop (found with Burning Wish). Just don't let them extract Underworld Breach! Avoid blind-milling yourself in games 2 and 3, in case you walk into a Surgical on Breach.



Storm Hate

Deafening Silence: This card turns off our combo. Like Leyline, this is a reason we need tutorable enchantment kill.

Chalice of the Void: Chalice @ 1, a common choice against most decks, will stop our cantrips but doesn't stop us from going off. We can combo off completely ignoring Chalice @ 1. But Chalice @ 0 or Chalice @ 2 stop the combo. We need artifact kill for this. If you're tutoring for artifact kill, think about what number Chalice might be on before deciding on the tutor and the kill card for your deck. Both have to resolve.

Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst/Damping Sphere: Resistors slow us down but don't outright nullify our spells like Chalice does. Against decks with multiple resistors and Chalices, cards that kill multiple artifacts are very strong (Serenity, Pulverize)

Mindbreak Trap: This card doesn't see much play lately but can interrupt our combo through a Veil of Summer! We can beat it with counterspells or Silence effects. Escaping Pact of Negation (0 mana) is useful to interact with cards like Mindbreak Trap that would be cast midway through our combo chain.

Silence: The Jeskai mirror can interrupt you with Silence, awkwardly stopping you from going off. We can try to counter Silence or cast our own Silence effect first.


AntiFreeze Effects

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn: Any deck running this can't be killed with Brain Freeze. That's OK. We can win with Thassa's Oracle or Grapeshot. All builds should have a win condition other than Brain Freeze.

Veil of Summer: Veil gives hexproof from Blue and Black, meaning we can't target them with Brain Freeze. Grapeshot and Thassa's Oracle get through this. Tendrils of Agony does not.

Leyline of Sanctity/Solitary Confinement: These cards see little play but would stop both Brain Freeze and Grapeshot. Thassa's Oracle can still win. Burning Wish builds can win by searching for enchantment kill first.


Hatebears

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: This card increases the costs just enough that our loop is painful but not impossible. We can still win through Thalia, but it consumes more resources (cards in GY, mana from lands). It's much better to remove Thalia either before going off or early in the chain. Grapeshot, Swords to Plowshares or Burning Wish -> Massacre/Pyroclasm are answers. EOT bounce works too.

Collector Ouphe: Ooph. This card stops both LED and Lotus Petal. We can't win or even make much mana with this out. It needs to die or be countered. Expect every GSZ X=2 to be an Ouphe. Counter it.

Sanctum Prelate: Prelate @ 0 or Prelate @ 2 stop us from going off. We need a 1 cmc answer like Swords to Plowshares, Chain of Vapor or Lightning Bolt. Unfortunately Prelate @ 2 shuts off Wish into Massacre.

Phyrexian Revoker: They can revoke either LED or Lotus Petal, but we can still deterministically win with the other one. Revoker is an annoyance but doesn't stop us from going off.

Meddling Mage: If you happen to face a 5c Humans deck running this, Mage on Breach demands an answer but any other choice (LED, BF, Wish) could be played around by redundancy.

Scavenging Ooze: This gravehatebear can attack our graveyard but is limited by their available green mana. They will try to exile LED or Brain Freeze or a wincon, or just cut down escape fuel. If we can't kill it, we can try to go off before they have many activations available. We can somewhat play around it with stack control, the same way we play around Faerie Macabre and Surgical, but it's better to not let them get too many cracks at us.

Eidolon of the Great Revel: The damage from this adds up fast, especially if opponent has already dealt us damage or might have Fireblast in hand. However we can still start to go off through this and tutor for an answer partway through. Eidolon can be answered with bounce, StP, Grapeshot, or Pyroclasm. Just be careful about life totals. Play around Bolts and Fireblasts.

Marit Lage: He is effectively a hatebear with T: target opponent can't win the game. More specifically, loses the game. Immediately. 1-shot threat demands an answer. Bounce and StP both work.


Nonbasic Hate

Wasteland: We can play around Wasteland by fetching basics first or by not cracking fetches until we need the mana. Most builds are run 3-4 basics. The 4 color builds are most vulnerable to Wasteland.

Back to Basics: Same thing. Fetching basics dodges this. B2B is very slow, we can race it, so it may not even stay in postboard.

Blood Moon: We depend on a lot of fetchlands (manafixing, graveyard fodder). But if we can a basic Island in play first, we can probably just win around Moons. Our combo doesn't need our lands to produce any nonred mana! The red mana also casts Burning Wish into answers. Lotus Petal fixes colored mana.


Enchantment and Artifact Hate

Null Rod: If anyone plays this, it shuts down both LED and Petal and demands an answer before we can win. We can answer it with counters or artifact kill.

Force of Vigor/Wear // Tear/Disenchant: Opponent may try to directly kill Underworld Breach to stop the combo. Breach needs to be in play, otherwise you lose the Escape ability. We can beat this with countermagic or Silence effects, but not Veil of Summer.

Abrupt Decay: Abrupt Decay can kill Breach and we can't counter it. We can proactively prevent it with Silence effects, Veil of Summer (hexproof from black) or Defense Grid. We can also play around it by casting a 2nd Breach (from hand or graveyard) immediately after the first one resolves, without passing priority to the opponent, before they can Decay the 1st one.


Counterspells

Force of Will/Spell Pierce: Opponent will try to counter Breach. We can try to counter them back, cast Veil of Summer, or proactively prevent it with Silence effects, discard, Defense Grid, or Teferi. If they do counter Breach (or Silence), we haven't committed resources to going off yet and can try to go off again another turn.

Force of Negation: This one is a bit more dangerous because it exiles the card. Beat this the same way you beat FoW.

Daze: If you're facing a deck that usually runs Daze (e.g. RUG Delver), play smart and don't walk into Daze unless you absolutely have to due to a clock.

Veil of Summer: Veil acts as a counterspell against our counterspells, winning counter wars. But it can't interact with Silence effects! Orim's Chant leaves Veil looking awkward. Veil also doesn't stop us from going off on its own, they can only use it to get a leg up in a counter war or to stop our discard.

Flusterstorm: We walk into this one. We generate too much storm to deal with all the copies of an enemy Flusterstorm. Luckily it can't counter Breach or LED. It can only help them win counterwars or stop a Brain Freeze. If they counter Brain Freeze, we can cast it again... Defense Grid, Silence effects, or our own Flusterstorm are other possible answers.


9. Card Choices

I put this after the "Playing Around Hate" section, lower than in most primers, because the choices are driven by beating the hate we expect to face.

Combo Pieces
Underworld Breach: The deck's namesake. Essential to go off. Automatic 4-of.

Lion's Eye Diamond: Another core combo piece. 4-of

Brain Freeze: The 3rd piece. Fills your graveyard with escape fuel. Pre-combo it can be useful to fill the graveyard after a few spells have been cast. 4-of

Lotus Petal: Mana rock but also backup LED. Breach + Petal + Brain Freeze is a deterministic win (Petal -> Petal -> BF -> Petal -> Petal -> BF). 4-of

Grinding Station: Backup Brain Freeze in ETutor builds. It forms a combo chain by escaping LED/Lotus Petal and then sacrificing it to mill yourself for 3. Repeat until you find Brain Freeze or generate enough storm.

Tome Scour: Backup Brain Freeze in Wishboards. It forms a combo chain with LED. Every 3 Tome Scours nets you +3 cards in the graveyard, either digging you to Brain Freeze or generating enough storm and fuel to cast a win condition.

Memory Sluice: Backup Brain Freeze in Infernal Tutor builds. It forms a combo chain with LED, netting +0 cards per 3 Sluices, but generating storm and digging you into Brain Freeze. The advantage over Tome Scour is the ability to cast it for B, which is convenient when cracking LED for BBB to escape Infernal Tutor.



Cantrips
Brainstorm: One of the best cards in the format. Helps sculpt our hand. Fills the graveyard. Hides combo pieces from discard. Not running 4 is crazy.

Ponder: Helps sculpt. Fills the yard. Good card is good.

Preordain: Cantrips 9-12. Doesn't dig as well as Brainstorm or Ponder, but sometimes you just want more cantrips.

Thought Scour: Both cantrips and mills you a bit, but without card selection. Instant speed enables leaving mana open for tricks.


Tutors
Enlightened Tutor: Finds any combo piece: Underworld Breach, LED/Petal, or Grinding Station (replacement for BF). Also finds answers: Seal of Cleansing, Serenity, Pithing Needle, Silent Gravestone, Defense Grid. 1 cmc instant tutors are good! The main drawback is putting the card on top of your library, so you usually want to cast this EOT, Upkeep, or with a cantrip to draw the card.

Burning Wish: Enables a Wishboard for alternate win conditions (Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens), ways to find Breach (Infernal Tutor, Sevinne's Reclamation), Brain Freeze replacements (Tome Scour, Memory Sluice), answers (Void Snare, Reverent Silence, Massacre, Pulverize, etc..), and a hail mary (Echo of Eons). Wish can find a lot of answers. The drawbacks are it takes up SB space and the 2 mana can be slow in some matches.

Infernal Tutor: Finds any card, but you have to crack LED first, leaving yourself without a hand and exposed to gravehate. Infernal Tutor + LED is enough to go off on its own, which is the real power. You can float mana with LED, tutor for Breach, cast Breach, then escape LED and escape Tutor for Brain Freeze or Memory Sluice to go off (Sluice can be cast off BBB from LED used for the 2nd IT).

Gamble: Finds any card, but you have a random discard. Many cards are OK to have in the graveyard, but losing Breach, mana or protection can hurt.

Intuition: On its own it can choose 3x any card to tutor the card to hand for 2U at instant speed. The drawback is it costs mana and tempo, leaving you open to mana denial and blowouts from Surgical Extraction. Sometimes that's still good enough to get the win. Where it really shines is in combination with Sevinne's Reclamation or Underworld Breach, making your graveyard live, which allows you to generate 3-card piles of singletons and tutor up multiple cards at once for value.


Win Conditions
Grapeshot: This card wins in most scenarios where Brain Freeze can't (e.g. anti-mill cards, hexproof from blue due to Veil of Summer). It can be played maindeck or found with Burning Wish. Achieving high enough storm count is not an issue because you can escape Grapeshot and play it again! Storm 9 is usually enough for the first one. It even wins in scenarios that Tendrils of Agony can't (e.g. hexproof from black due to Veil of Summer, Gaddock Teeg, too few mana/cards in GY to make Tendrils mana). Pre-combo Grapeshot has other utility killing hatebears and weenies.

Thassa's Oracle: This card wins the game in almost any scenario, even in obscure ones that Brain Freeze and Grapeshot cannot (e.g. Solitary Confinement lock, Glacial Chasm with Emrakul in deck, infinite life). The "win the game" trigger still works even if Oracle is killed in response, as long as your library is empty. If Oracle gets Stifled then you lose the trigger, you can't recast it (not in the GY), and you might just lose the game. However there's a good chance you can beat a Stifle if you've already comboed off that far. The main drawback of Oracle is that it does nothing until you've completely gone off and milled your library. It's a terrible topdeck.

Lightning Bolt: This was suggested in the early builds as a win condition. Bolt is a good card pre-combo, killing threats and hatebears. Once you go off, you can make 7 red mana and escape Bolt 7 times at the opponent's face to win. It works, but it involves exiling 30 cards just to use the win condition, very resource-intensive and slow to execute. If you faced disruption and are in any way constrained on resources, you might reach a point where it's impossible to win with Bolt because you just don't have enough cards left. That risk outweights the benefit of Bolt doing more than Grapeshot precombo.


Protection
Force of Will: Catch-all solution to counters, hatebears, permanent hate, just about anything. Very common choice due to its flexibility. However the card disadvantage and strain on the blue count can hurt.

Orim's Chant/Silence: Stops opponent from playing spells. Prevents a wide range of problems like countermagic, enchantment kill, Crop Rotation, Surgical... It can also be used to Time Walk the opponent's turn to buy tempo, or to interrupt an opposing combo deck and stop them from going off (even if they cast Veil!).

Veil of Summer: Beats counterspells and discard. Also lets you win through Chalice @ 0 or Chalice @ 2. Doesn't stop Crop Rotation, Surgical, Disenchants or enemy Silences in the mirror.

Defense Grid: Pseudo-Silence, but opponent can potentially leave FoW + 3 lands open to still disrupt you. Grid is also slow to deploy, costing you tempo.

Teferi, Time Raveler: The static ability acts as a better Defense Grid while the minus ability bounces problematic permanents to let you go off. The abilities are great. Costing 3 mana is the only problem. Some builds will consider this too slow.

Spell Pierce: Answers problems before the combo turn (discard, Chalice, etc) but requires leaving mana open, which is not always easy for all builds.

Pact of Negation: 0 cmc answer for anything on the combo turn. Can be escaped for 0 mana. If you sequence correctly, Pact is always live (either from hand or GY) at any point of interaction during the combo chain, ready to counter things like Surgicals, Crop Rotations, disenchants and other disruption. The only drawback is that little "lose the game" clause. It's dangerous to cast outside the combo turn, though you can pay the upkeep with LED if you need to.

Force of Negation: This can't protect you on the combo turn but acts as FoW #5-6 to help stop turn 1 problems like Chalice of the Void, Deafening Silence, Grafdigger's Cage, Blood Moon, Trinisphere, etc. It's good in a metagame running a lot of early permanent-based hate (but not hatebears)

Chain of Vapor: Answers hatebears, Chalice @ 0 or Chalice @ 2, Leylines, and other problems. Pitches to FoW. Interacts with only 1 mana open. Cast it EOT and go off. In a pinch, you can Chain your mana rocks first before Chaining the opponent to build storm count for Brain Freeze. Good in a meta with a lot of permanent-based hate including a mix of Chalices and hatebears.

Thoughtseize: Discard lets you proactively remove many problems from their hand (counters, Surgical, Crop Rotation, enchantment kill, Thalia) or even just slow them down enough to go off. On the play it can answer permanents like Chalice, Deafening Silence and Grafdigger's Cage, but on the draw these cards will come down before you can discard them. Thoughtseize's main drawback is that it can't help stop permanent-based hate on the draw. The life loss is not an issue because our engine doesn't care about the life total the way Ad Nauseam does.

Duress: Thoughtseize #5. Gives perfect information. Hits Force of Will but misses hatebears. Sometimes blanks against some decks.

Inquisition of Kozilek: Thoughtseize #5. Gives perfect information. Hits hatebears but misses FoW. Personally I think this is more useful than Duress given the cards we worry about.

Pyroblast: This card 1-for-1s with countermagic, Braistorms and Delvers. The ability to trade 1-for-1 is a big advantage over FoW when you just need to grind out more protection than the opponent has answers, but it only hits blue cards (still 70% of the format) so it may be better in the SB than main.

Flusterstorm: Another 1-for-1 counter war answer. Performs better than Spell Pierce in the lategame, but can't stop permanent-based hate early like Pierce can.

10. Gameplay and Strategy Tips


A collection of tips from the other thread (credits: Lemon, Jblinder)

• Crack LED in response to cantrips when searching for BF in a "go off now or lose" state.
• Escape LED before casting BF to protect from surgical extraction
• Cast Silence before casting UB. Even if they don't have countermagic it could protect you from permanent hate.
• When fighting with a UB on the field remember that you can escape counterspells, but not for alternative costs.
• Always exile lands to escape first, you may need those spells later.
• Reusing ETutor is powerful, but remember that it goes to top of library. You need a way to draw if you're looking to escape Etutor.
• Grinding station triggers to untap on it's own entry. Responding to this can be the difference between having enough cards in the yard to escape and losing.
• Vs potential abrupt decay (suppose you’re too tight on mana to cast double breach or otherwise have a breach in graveyard). Cast underworld breach. Crack led, cast underworld breach from graveyard. You’re now insulated against removal.
• Chain of vapor trick: you go for combo early to try to go under a knight of the reliquary they just played (which represents bog once active). You end up fizzling. You can chain of vapor your own underworld breach, sacrifice a land and also hit their knight to go off again next turn.
• If missing LED or Petal, EOT Brain Freeze can get a lot of cards in the yard (counts opponent's storm), especially if you had a counter war or played any instants on their turn.
• Against decks that might have Chalice, 3sphere, Thalias or discard play out Lotus Petals and LEDs early to make sure they resolve.
• An early Petal enables tricks on the opponent's turn, even if you used all your lands to cantrip.
• If you mess up and can't go off, you can pay for Pact of Negation with LED mana. Brainstorm/ETutor can hide Breach on top of your library to go off again.
• Teferi's second ability can bounce hate or recycle Breach
• 1RR + Burning Wish + LED (BBB) is enough to get Underworld Breach in play via Infernal Tutor without any swamps
• Playing around decks with a lot of artifact and enchantment hate, try to get Serenity in play the turn before you want to go off. That way it blows up on your upkeep and you go off that same main phase, not letting them cast any more hate.
• ETutor can be cast on upkeep to get Breach, draw it, and go off that turn by surprise and dodging discard. Just needs 2 lands in play (with 1 more source in hand).
• Against storm, Silence/Chant in response to their Wish/Tutor cracking LED should be GG. They might go off with Veil and not expect to get Silence slapped.
• Against slow control decks with too much hate to fight through but no clock (e.g. Lands, Miracles, Karn), Double Brain Freeze @ opponent can win lategame without the graveyard. If you sandbag a few mana rocks or have a counter war, that could be 11-15 copies of Brain Freeze.
• If you need to build storm without Breach, you can Chain your own Petals/LEDs (sacrificing the Island you used to cast it) and something of the opponent's, then replay the Petal/LEDs. You can bounce multiples. Just float mana for Brain Freeze first.

While going off, leave blue mana floating when possible. I try to leave at least U (e.g. crack LED for UUU, escape LED, escape Brain Freeze with U floating, crack for UUU, escape LED, escape Brain Freeze, crack for UUU, escape LED, escape Brain Freeze, etc..). That does a couple things. You avoid passing priority with LED in the GY to dodge hate. Whenever LED is on the stack you also have mana to cast Brain Freeze in response (to Surgical, Faerie Macabre, Bog, Abrupt Decay). The extra mana floating also leaves up Spell Pierce and Chain of Vapor for tricks. I've seen some players go LED -> BF -> LED -> BF -> BF again (using up the last UU). There's no reason to deplete your mana like that if you don't need to, especially if you would need to cast and resolve an LED/Petal before you can get more mana.

Facing Bojuka Bog when you have an answer in the graveyard (e.g. Pithing Needle for Knight or Reclaimer, Silence for Crop Rotation), they will probably Bog you with Breach on the stack before you can escape the answer. You can beat that by digging for another Brain Freeze in hand before trying to go off. Let their Bog hit, lose your initial graveyard, Brain Freeze yourself for more cards, then go off. They might have multiple Crop Rotations and Knight untaps, but they only have 1 Bog!


11. Alternate Combo Lines

Credit: Cire

• Breach + LED + BF = Win (1R, at least 3 other cards in grave/hand to start)
• Breach + Petal + BF = Win (2R to start. Petal for U -> Breach -> BF for 9+ cards -> Escape Petal -> Escape Petal -> Escape BF -> win)
• Breach + LED + TomeScour = Win (1R, at least 3 other cards in grave/hand to start. Loop Tomescour and LEDs till you get BF and then just win)
• Breach + Petal + TomeScour = 75%-99% Win (1UR, at least 1 other card in grave for 75% and X additional cards in exile for each about additional 4%s to start. Petal -> Tomescour -> Breach -> Escape Petal -> Escape Tomescour, loop till you get LED then loop LED and tomescour till you get BF)
• Breach + LED + Gamble = Win (1R, an average of 9.6 other cards in hand/grave to start (or 1RU an average of 6.6 other cards in hand/grave to start (or 1RR and 3 other cards in hand/grave to start), Breach -> LED -> Escape Gamble -> BF -> escape LED -> Escape BF, Win)
• Breach + Petal + Gamble = Win (1R, an average of 9.6 other cards in hand/grave to start (or 1RU an average of 6.6 other cards in hand/grave to start). Breach -> Gamble for LED -> cast or escape LED -> escape Gamble for BF -> escape LED -> escape BF, win)
• Breach + Gamble = Win (1RR, an average of 9.6 other cards in hand/grave to start. Breach -> Gamble for LED -> cast or escape LED -> escape Gamble for BF -> escape LED -> escape BF, win)
• Gamble + Petal = Win% equal to (Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble-1)/(Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble) (1RR, and about 9-12 cards (haven't figured out average) in grave to start Gamble for Breach -> Breach -> Petal -> Escape Gamble for BF -> Escape Petal -> Escape Petal -> Escape BF, win)
• Gamble + LED = Win% equal to (Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble-1)/(Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble) (1RR, and about 6-9 cards (haven't figured out average) in hand/grave to start Gamble for Breach -> Breach -> LED -> Escape Gamble for BF -> Escape LED -> Escape BF, win)
• Breach + LED + 2 Emrys (3 cards other cards in hand or grave and need 2 artifacts in play but you can use this to cycle through Emrys similar to tomescour to find BF to win).
• Echo + LED (together they draw 7 hoping you float enough mana and repeat or have enough mana to use other line of play if possible).
• Wish+LED (1B+9 cards in hand or grave, 1BU+6 cards in grave, or 1RR +9 cards in grave. Cast LED ->1B - Cast IT to search for Breach ->Crack LED in response for RRR ->Cast Breach (R floating) ->Exile 3 cards in graveyard - Cast and Crack LED for BBB (BBBR floating) ->Exile 3 cards in graveyard - Cast IT for BF (BB floating) ->Hopefully have one mana still open for U or 3 more cards in graveyard for another LED crack for UUU - Cast BF win. OR Cast LED1RR -> Cast Wish->Crack LED in response for BBB->Wish gets IT->Cast IT for Breach (RB floating)->Cast Breach->Exile 3 cards in graveyard - Cast and Crack LED for BBB (BBB floating)->Exile 3 cards in graveyard - Cast IT for BF (B floating)->Exile 3 cards in graveyard - Cast and Crack LED for UUU - Cast BF win.

12. Matchup Analysis

To be continued...


13. UGH, Why isn't this card banned already???

Good, we have done our job.

Edit: Ban accomplished! Mar 9th 2020.
Underworld Breach lasted in Legacy barely longer than a month, after critics initially thought the 3-card combo had too many moving parts to even be Legacy-viable. We showed 'em!

Major credits to everyone who grinded this deck on MTGO and showed what a force it can be.

Reserving another spot as backup

Fantastic primer. I love the deck and am excited to see which of the builds ends up being the best.

(I still don't like that name)

Great primer! :eek:

*chomps on ceegar*

Well, it looks like we did it.

Thanks for writing the primer! I'm eager to see where the deck goes from this point. People are definitely coming prepared to beat it.

Really nice primer, it's effort like this that keeps me on this forum.

Thanks everyone! Glad to do it.

Did anyone here play Breach this weekend and have any results to post? I didn't have a chance. I'm curious how the meta's adapting and how the deck performs through that.

Couldn't quite convert today at the Mox Boarding House/Card Kingdom 1K. Both of my losses were to Bant/4c Miracles. What are people's opinions on sideboarding for that matchup? I know we have to bring in bounce or removal for Deafening Silence and Rest in Peace, but I'm also running into Counterbalance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ESG

Couldn't quite convert today at the Mox Boarding House/Card Kingdom 1K. Both of my losses were to Bant/4c Miracles. What are people's opinions on sideboarding for that matchup? I know we have to bring in bounce or removal for Deafening Silence and Rest in Peace, but I'm also running into Counterbalance.

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Which build are you playing? Counters, bounce and removal all seem good postboard.

In Jeskai cards like Spell Pierce, Pyroblast, Chain of Vapor, Serenity are good. Bringing in more 1-for-1 counters helps win the counterwars. Try not to let CB resolve. ETutor into Serenity is the best answer for all of those cards (Deafening Silence, RiP, Counterbalance) and also kills their Astrolabe. If you're digging for Seal of Cleansing or relying on bounce, I can see that running into problems if they have multiple enchantments to answer. I wouldn't cut Seal, but Serenity seems like the 1st choice tutor target here. If they have no clock, take the time to sculpt a hand to fight counter wars. You need to resolve your removal and your combo.

In RUG, if you can resolve Burning Wish, Reverent Silence clears all those enchantments and is 95% not getting stopped by their CB. Veil of Summer can turn off Counterbalance for a turn to let you Chain something else and go off. Countermagic is important in this match.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Thanks everyone! Glad to do it.

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I probably will never play this deck, but this is a great primer.

Played four-color Breach at Bearded Dragon yesterday (2K). Lost my win and in to an insane turn by my opponent. Deck felt really powerful.

Wow, this is a great primer. Good job!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

Played four-color Breach at Bearded Dragon yesterday (2K). Lost my win and in to an insane turn by my opponent. Deck felt really powerful.

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List of the 4c deck?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

In RUG, if you can resolve Burning Wish, Reverent Silence clears all those enchantments and is 95% not getting stopped by their CB. Veil of Summer can turn off Counterbalance for a turn to let you Chain something else and go off. Countermagic is important in this match.

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No one mentioned Xantid Swarm. The comeback of one of the top three green creature card?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Which build are you playing? Counters, bounce and removal all seem good postboard.

In Jeskai cards like Spell Pierce, Pyroblast, Chain of Vapor, Serenity are good. Bringing in more 1-for-1 counters helps win the counterwars. Try not to let CB resolve. ETutor into Serenity is the best answer for all of those cards (Deafening Silence, RiP, Counterbalance) and also kills their Astrolabe. If you're digging for Seal of Cleansing or relying on bounce, I can see that running into problems if they have multiple enchantments to answer. I wouldn't cut Seal, but Serenity seems like the 1st choice tutor target here. If they have no clock, take the time to sculpt a hand to fight counter wars. You need to resolve your removal and your combo.

In RUG, if you can resolve Burning Wish, Reverent Silence clears all those enchantments and is 95% not getting stopped by their CB. Veil of Summer can turn off Counterbalance for a turn to let you Chain something else and go off. Countermagic is important in this match.

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Jeskai. I was on two Chain of Vapor, two Fragmentize, one Teferi, and one Detention Sphere, along with my Forces. Fragmentize was there instead of Wear/Tear because it comes online faster against resistors. I expected resistors in the field (which there were). Fragmentize won me a game that I would've lost with Wear/Tear, and it lost me a different game I would've won with Wear/Tear. I had been on three Teferis before this, and that's a strong card vs. Miracles, but Counterbalance is quite good against Breach, and I faced a lot of copies of that card on the day. You can't really sculpt when they have a Counterbalance on the battlefield. I'm going to switch my board up tonight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ESG

Jeskai. I was on two Chain of Vapor, two Fragmentize, one Teferi, and one Detention Sphere, along with my Forces. Fragmentize was there instead of Wear/Tear because it comes online faster against resistors. I expected resistors in the field (which there were). Fragmentize won me a game that I would've lost with Wear/Tear, and it lost me a different game I would've won with Wear/Tear. I had been on three Teferis before this, and that's a strong card vs. Miracles, but Counterbalance is quite good against Breach, and I faced a lot of copies of that card on the day. You can't really sculpt when they have a Counterbalance on the battlefield. I'm going to switch my board up tonight.

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Did you find the 3 Teferis too slow in other matchups? I like that card for control, but in other games (especially Delver and D&T) 3 mana is a big deal.

Some of the other threats (e.g. resistors) you can let resolve and then try to remove. CB is much easier to manage if you don't let it resolve in the first place. So your build had 0 Spell Pierce, 0 FoN, 0 Pyroblast, 0 Flusterstorm? Winning the stack might be the better answer. I like having those 1-for-1 counters postboard in the UWx matches. If you watch AnziD's streams, counters seemed good for him too vs control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Did you find the 3 Teferis too slow in other matchups? I like that card for control, but in other games (especially Delver and D&T) 3 mana is a big deal.

Some of the other threats (e.g. resistors) you can let resolve and then try to remove. CB is much easier to manage if you don't let it resolve in the first place. So your build had 0 Spell Pierce, 0 FoN, 0 Pyroblast, 0 Flusterstorm? Winning the stack might be the better answer. I like having those 1-for-1 counters postboard in the UWx matches. If you watch AnziD's streams, counters seemed good for him too vs control.

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At least for me, Teferi has been fine vs. Delver, but I needed more space in the deck to fit Silences in the main. I was expecting to play against the mirror, and the field ended up being different than I had anticipated, with only two of us playing Breach (49 players in the event). I went with two Silence and one Teferi in the main, which felt OK, but at this point, I don't think either is mandatory. I think Teferi is the better card overall. Force of Negation was a card I had run in other events in the main, but I didn't have it in the 75 this time. I was aiming to be more proactive. Overall, the deck felt very smooth on the day. It was only the Miracles matchup that felt less favorable than before, but that ended up mattering a lot. I will continue to tinker with the numbers as I win and lose.

I am very curious about the 4 color decks. One thing I have noticed about the Breach builds is that there is a lot of card disadvantage, and it always feels bad....always. I have been cutting FoW, silence, e-tutor, etc etc. It left me with "all of the best cards" and in my opinion streamlined what we are actually trying to do, which is get Breach into play and chain together a win with Brain Freeze etc. I went back to the old thread and saw a post from @Lemon (i think) about using Infernal Tutor and Memory Sluice. I tested it out in a previous build and I think it works well, at least well enough to deserve a singleton slot.

Another issue I have run into is that our mana fixing is not that great. In the traditional builds we require R, U, and W usually with access to maybe 3 lands on the turn we try to go off. Our only "fast mana" is really Lotus Petal and gives us access to some explosive starts but I think we could use more fast mana; enter Dark Ritual...which also works well with the Infernal Tutor -> Memory Sluice plan when you go all in on B mana. To fix the color issues I have added Astrolabe back to the deck along with making the 3 basic lands into Snow lands (2 Island and 1 Swamp). This fixes our mana so well and allows us to run 4 or possibly even 5 colors, which I am toying with now. The AA's are not card disadvantage which is huge IMHO.

Since I have settled back on the Infernal Tutor plan we may as well play Ad Nauseam. AN is a real card advantage engine as you all know if you followed TES or ANT over the years and it works for us in the same way.

Here is what the MD looks like right now:

4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual

4 Underworld Breach
3 Brain Freeze
1 Memory Sluice
1 Grapeshot

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Thoughtseize
3 Veil of Summer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Arcum’s Astrolabe

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

In thinking about a 5 color build I can see silence/chant or T3feri being the only inclusion from White, with maybe StP in the SB. It would also be possible to drop the Sluice and GS for a couple of B-Wish. A lot more testing with AA needs to be done before I cut in a 5th color though. Just saying that out loud sounds crazy but that is what AA let's decks do, play the best spells in a "splash" color to maximize their chances of winning against any scenario.

Some thoughts:

In non-goldfish testing we are most afraid of getting our hand picked apart by discard spells - that's why it almost seems like there are two stages to the playing the deck. Stage 1 is cantripping into as many Silence/Chant/Veil/Fow's that you can get and Stage 2 is assembling the combo. Since Stage 1 is such a big part of the deck's strength it's hard to justify cutting out protection spots. This makes sense when you look at the successful lists which all run about 10 to 11 protection slots. Especially as the meta turns to answering this deck it seems improper to answer that meta by cutting protection spots - if anything you need to fine tune the protection spots.

In regards to 4C versions we need to look at what each color brings to the table and why we would play that color:

White - Enlightened Tutor and Silence Effects. Tutor provides card selection and silence is a big card in combo-wars or fighting against control. It also simply acts like a time skip against decks early on which is just so useful to this deck.

Green - Veil and Burning Wish into Reverent Silence. Veil doubles as a better Silence compared to white, but the real difference between the two colors is that you have better wish targets. Now that the meta is advancing to answer breach decks the maneuverability of the wish board becomes more important.

Black - Infernal Tutor, Discard, creature kill. ITutor can function like Etutor in some scenarios and with some work arounds, and discard also fufills the general role of silence/veil to varying degrees. Due to this black seems like a worst White redux since every tool of black that you would want white has a spell that fufills that roll either cheaper or better. Even creature kill, that is becoming more important due to GSZ -> Ouphe can be solved by white (STP) or even Dismember, which doesn't require black.

Looking at the above I would think that if you want to build a 4C deck instead of URwb or URgb you should go URwg.

I think this is a novel concept since the only 4C builds that I have seen thus far have been URwb or URgb. But such builds confuse me since the cards you would get from black seem like worse cards that you can get from white.

So I'm thinking of something like the following:


10 fetchlands
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Underworld Breach
4 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Burning Wish

4 Force of Will
4 Veil of Summer
2 Orim's Chant

//Sideboard:
1 Consign // Oblivion
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shenanigans
1 Tome Scour
1 Serenity
1 Defense Grid
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Dismember


Edit - RE the above I think to justify the 4C build you have to argue what it is doing better than 3C builds. I think with URgw the argument would go that it has access to Veil and Silence, that while they fulfill similar roles, this version runs around 6 of that effect and runs 4 of the best version (veil) of that effect. Moreover this build gets to run the wish board with Reverent Silence and also have the flexibility of Etutor.

Why have the 4 color builds been URwb and URgb but not URgw? I think it's because green and white both offer similar tools (Veil / Silence and enchantment kill) while black offers different tools (discard, Infernal Tutor, Massacre).

4C is a significant hit to the manabase consistency. Is it worth that risk just to have more maindeck Veils over Chants? Keep in mind that for Veil to do anything you need green mana open, otherwise it does nothing. On the combo turn, Silence is better than Veil of Summer (Silence prevents more threats). Veil only shines pre-combo (discard, counters, cantripping). But you still need green mana open for it to do that. If they Thoughtseize you when you don't have green mana untapped, you're still vulnerable to discard. If they counter some pre-combo spell (e.g. tutor, cantrip, answer for hate) before you have green mana ready, Veil can't help you. That means you need to fetch a basic Forest or Tropical early, when you otherwise wouldn't need that land for anything else. That's a strain on the manabase. Is that a good enough reason to splash a 4th color?

The RUG build lets you play Veil and less card disadvantage without the hit to the manabase. Anyone worried about card disadvantage or mana-fixing consistency should try out Jbinder's RUG version first.

Went 4-1 in the Legacy Preliminary with this list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
1 Badlands
4 Duress
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Prismatic Vista
3 Preordain
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Thassa's Oracle
4 Underworld Breach
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Daze
4 Brain Freeze
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Dark Confidant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Pact of Negation

3 Pyroblast
1 Plague Engineer
2 Echoing Truth
2 Dystopia
2 Fatal Push
2 Shenanigans
3 Faerie Macabre

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Why have the 4 color builds been URwb and URgb but not URgw? I think it's because green and white both offer similar tools (Veil / Silence and enchantment kill) while black offers different tools (discard, Infernal Tutor, Massacre).

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See my argument is that tools black gives you aren't all that different from the tools white gives you. Etutor vs. Infernal, Discard vs. Silence, STP vs. Massacre. They look and feel different but they fill the same roles Tutor, Protection, Creature Kill. The most important difference is how Discard protects you vs. how Silence protects you. Discard you usually cast on turns you are not going off, while Silence you cast to protect you turn going off. The idea behind the GW 4C list was to maximize silence/veil effects to prevent/scare off discard as I find discard the most painful "hate" that we face, and then have additional protection to go off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cire

See my argument is that tools black gives you aren't all that different from the tools white gives you. Etutor vs. Infernal, Discard vs. Silence, STP vs. Massacre. They look and feel different but they fill the same roles Tutor, Protection, Creature Kill. The most important difference is how Discard protects you vs. how Silence protects you. Discard you usually cast on turns you are not going off, while Silence you cast to protect you turn going off. The idea behind the GW 4C list was to maximize silence/veil effects to prevent/scare off discard as I find discard the most painful "hate" that we face, and then have additional protection to go off.

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I think that discard is only the most painful hate we face because we have so few good ways to get ahead on card advantage, Our white suite is inherently bad at this, and none of our blue cards help. Both FoW and Etutor are both 2:1s, and we have no way to get those back. I don't know what the answer to this problem is though. I know some people were playing around with running Predict, but I'm not sure about that one.

Potential solution is Sylvan Library? Provides Card Selection and Card Advantage? Another option in my proposed URgw version. A green enchantment that you can tutor for if need be.

I am still a fan of the 4c builds. In chatting with a buddy about W vs G he mentioned the SB options that W offers. Mentor and StP being the biggest reasons. I had to agree with their assessment and have decided to cut G. My current list is:


"Yawgwill" (4)
4 Underworld Breach

Win Con (5)
4 Brain Freeze
1 Grapeshot

Tutor (3)
3 Infernal Tutor

Fast Mana and Fixing (11)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Arcum's Astrolabe

Selection (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

Protection (10)
4 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation
2 Thoughtseize
2 Silence

Lands (15)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

I think this list hits most of the points we need to hit for protection, with the downside of not running many maindeck answers for things that hit the board (no bounce or disenchant effects), which I think is ok for most G1's. I am still working out the SB, but 2-3 Mentor and 3-4 StP will certainly be there. Some number of bounce/disenchant spells, 2-3 silence effects, maybe another W producing Land, 1-2 discard spells, and maybe some general targeted GY hate.

I think this list feels incredibly strong and flexible. Give it a go and let me know what you think. I am going to try and get some leagues in later with it.

Also, @Cire, Library is an interesting thought. Being able to ponder every turn "for free" may be something we can take advantage of. I will think more about this and see what a list would look like. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cire

See my argument is that tools black gives you aren't all that different from the tools white gives you. Etutor vs. Infernal, Discard vs. Silence, STP vs. Massacre. They look and feel different but they fill the same roles Tutor, Protection, Creature Kill. The most important difference is how Discard protects you vs. how Silence protects you. Discard you usually cast on turns you are not going off, while Silence you cast to protect you turn going off. The idea behind the GW 4C list was to maximize silence/veil effects to prevent/scare off discard as I find discard the most painful "hate" that we face, and then have additional protection to go off.

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Veil and Silence fill a similar role. Discard is "protection" but interacts differently and stops different problems. It's proactive, live as early as turn 1, protecting us under a different axis than Veil and Silence do. That's why the URwb and URgb builds splash black for Thoughtseize. It's something unique green and white can't do.

IT and ETutor function very differently. ETutor is cheap and instant but can only find some card types, is card disadvantage, and only goes to top of library. IT puts the card in hand immediately but is slower to use and requires an enabler (LED or play out hand). ETutor forces some suboptimal card choices so that they're tutorable, while IT doesn't restrict the rest of your deck design.

While both are "tutors" and "protection", the way they accomplish that has very different impacts on how the deck plays out vs an opponent. IT is more replaceable because all of the tutors have some drawback, but Thoughtseize is something no other color can do.

Silence doesn't scare off discard. If you want to maximize Veil to scare off discard, why not just play RUG with 4 Veils?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemon

I think that discard is only the most painful hate we face because we have so few good ways to get ahead on card advantage, Our white suite is inherently bad at this, and none of our blue cards help. Both FoW and Etutor are both 2:1s, and we have no way to get those back. I don't know what the answer to this problem is though. I know some people were playing around with running Predict, but I'm not sure about that one.

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Discard hurts because we have to sculpt an A+B+C combo with protection. We can't cast Breach until the combo turn, so we need to keep Breach and protection in hand. Discard disrupts that. Discard hurts Jeskai even more because it lacks card advantage and has multiple sources of card disadvantage (FoW, ETutor, Silence).

How to answer this? The RUG build has less card disadvantage and has Veil, so it isn't hurt by discard as much. Jeskai has advantages in other matchups (especially storm mirrors) but RUG does better in attrition games.

Another option is Michael Keller's list above playing Dark Confidant to get back card advantage. Bob is smart. Our curve is low and, unlike ANT, we don't care about life total. I wonder if Bob is better in transformational SB (after they board out removal) instead of maindeck in game 1, when it will eat 100% of removal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Silence doesn't scare off discard. If you want to maximize Veil to scare off discard, why not just play RUG with 4 Veils?

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The reason I proposed URgw is because (1) I recognize veil as the best card for discard, currently the best hate against us, and (2) crave the consistency of Etutor. I've played the RUG version and found it less consistent (personally) than the ease of just running Etutor. Essentially, I'm wondering about splashing white for tutor and green for veil. All other cards in the list (Orim's Chant/Rev Silence) are bonus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Another option is Michael Keller's list above playing Dark Confidant to get back card advantage. Bob is smart. Our curve is low and, unlike ANT, we don't care about life total. I wonder if Bob is better in transformational SB (after they board out removal) instead of maindeck in game 1, when it will eat 100% of removal.

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I really like the inclusion of Bob in the black lists - which goes back to my earlier hypo of running library in the proposed URgw list. 2 Library's MD with Etutor seems like a good way to get card advantage. Something like -1 Chant, -1 Preordain, +2 Library

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Veil and Silence fill a similar role. Discard is "protection" but interacts differently and stops different problems. It's proactive, live as early as turn 1, protecting us under a different axis than Veil and Silence do. That's why the URwb and URgb builds splash black for Thoughtseize. It's something unique green and white can't do.

IT and ETutor function very differently. ETutor is cheap and instant but can only find some card types, is card disadvantage, and only goes to top of library. IT puts the card in hand immediately but is slower to use and requires an enabler (LED or play out hand). ETutor forces some suboptimal card choices so that they're tutorable, while IT doesn't restrict the rest of your deck design.

While both are "tutors" and "protection", the way they accomplish that has very different impacts on how the deck plays out vs an opponent. IT is more replaceable because all of the tutors have some drawback, but Thoughtseize is something no other color can do.

Silence doesn't scare off discard. If you want to maximize Veil to scare off discard, why not just play RUG with 4 Veils?



Discard hurts because we have to sculpt an A+B+C combo with protection. We can't cast Breach until the combo turn, so we need to keep Breach and protection in hand. Discard disrupts that. Discard hurts Jeskai even more because it lacks card advantage and has multiple sources of card disadvantage (FoW, ETutor, Silence).

How to answer this? The RUG build has less card disadvantage and has Veil, so it isn't hurt by discard as much. Jeskai has advantages in other matchups (especially storm mirrors) but RUG does better in attrition games.

Another option is Michael Keller's list above playing Dark Confidant to get back card advantage. Bob is smart. Our curve is low and, unlike ANT, we don't care about life total. I wonder if Bob is better in transformational SB (after they board out removal) instead of maindeck in game 1, when it will eat 100% of removal.

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I think you are looking at IT as an all-in card only. It can also turn itself into any other card in your hand. Need another Cantrip, how about another silence or Veil? Those cards all give us lines to play to win....effectively stopping our opponent. You are correct in power level assessment though, it can get any card in the right circumstance (IT + no hand). In most cases it is a backup Breach if the first one gets countered. I think with the non-G builds we want to use our mana every turn, including T1 (unless saving for a BS and fetch for T2), but in most cases I want to cast ponder, preordain, astrolabe, or thoughtseize on T1.

I am still toying with the G vs W, and Veil may just be a better card for us...but it requires some different deck building decisions. The G builds probably want 4x Thoughtscour, and may also lean towards B-Wish (though I think IT is just better for us). I'll get some games in with the UBrg list tonight. My gut tells me that UBRw is correct though....at least for 4c.

Is there a 5c list we should try? What are the best cards in each color?

Blue:
BF
BS/Preordain/Ponder/Thoughtscour
FoW/FoN/Daze

Black:
IT
TS/IoK/Duress
D-Rit

White:
Silence/Chant

Red:
UB
Grapeshot
B-wish
RoF

Green:
Veil

Artifacts:
Petal
LED
Astrolabe

I don't think we could run FoW/FoN in a 5c build. Would that be a huge loss? Does 5c offer us anything that 4c wouldn't?

5c Astro-Breach:
3 BF
4 UB
4 LED
4 LP
4 Astro

12 Ponder/Preordain/BS/ Thoughtscour

3 Veil
3 Silence
3 TS

3 IT/B-wish

2 Remaining slots

Looks interesting! In any case, let's keep exploring!


Bob is an interesting card but I do not like turning on an opponents removal spells, pre or post board. S-Library may be a new card that Cire mentioned that we have not really explored in depth yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cire

I don't think we could run FoW/FoN in a 5c build. Would that be a huge loss? Does 5c offer us anything that 4c wouldn't?

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It is my opinion that Thoughtseize et al. fill the same role as FoW and FoN, and thus shouldn't be played together unless you really need those extra copies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemon

It is my opinion that Thoughtseize et al. fill the same role as FoW and FoN, and thus shouldn't be played together unless you really need those extra copies.

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I disagree a little. FoW and FoN fill a role that TS etc will never be able to fill....that is being a "free" answer. It answers cards on your opponents first turn when they are on the play. Stopping a sphere, chalice, combo, or anything else that matters is a big advantage. What I dislike about is that it is card disadvantage which may or may not matter depending on what you "have to" pitch.

I tried fooling around with with 5C but it seems too crowded. For example:

The core w/o Burning wish is:

16 Lands
4 Petal
12 Combo (Breakthrough/BF/LED)
1 Win

You're probably increasing the lands by at least 1 and adding in 4 Astrolab's just to deal with the color commitments. Then with 4 BS and 4 Ponders, which are essentially mandatory you already have 45 cards set. That leaves you with 15 cards. With those cards you'll probably run at least 3 Etutors, because otherwise why play white, you'll run probably at least 3 Veils, because why run green otherwise, and at least 3 discard and some number of Infernal Tutor (and maybe sluice), because why run black otherwise. That's at least 11-12 cards leaving you only 3-4 other cards which should all be protection related due to the fact you're running only 3 veils + 3 discards thus far. That protection can't be FOW simply because you're not running enough blue cards, so you'll probably up that to 4 veil and 4 discard, leaving you about 2 cards extra for protection. That could probably be Defense Grid and Silence, and the 5C deck looks a bit like a mess and doesn't look like it can do anything that the 4C build can't do?

@Lemon: FYI you misquoted me as saying "I don't think we could run FoW/FoN in a 5c build. Would that be a huge loss? Does 5c offer us anything that 4c wouldn't?" when it was shojeel. That said I completely agree with him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cire

I tried fooling around with with 5C but it seems too crowded. For example:

The core w/o Burning wish is:

16 Lands
4 Petal
12 Combo (Breakthrough/BF/LED)
1 Win

You're probably increasing the lands by at least 1 and adding in 4 Astrolab's just to deal with the color commitments. Then with 4 BS and 4 Ponders, which are essentially mandatory you already have 45 cards set. That leaves you with 15 cards. With those cards you'll probably run at least 3 Etutors, because otherwise why play white, you'll run probably at least 3 Veils, because why run green otherwise, and at least 3 discard and some number of Infernal Tutor (and maybe sluice), because why run black otherwise. That's at least 11-12 cards leaving you only 3-4 other cards which should all be protection related due to the fact you're running only 3 veils + 3 discards thus far. That protection can't be FOW simply because you're not running enough blue cards, so you'll probably up that to 4 veil and 4 discard, leaving you about 2 cards extra for protection. That could probably be Defense Grid and Silence, and the 5C deck looks a bit like a mess and doesn't look like it can do anything that the 4C build can't do?

@Lemon: FYI you misquoted me as saying "I don't think we could run FoW/FoN in a 5c build. Would that be a huge loss? Does 5c offer us anything that 4c wouldn't?" when it was shojeel. That said I completely agree with him.

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I don't think that E-Tutor is a must in a 5c build. The only cards I see being needed from white is some number of chant effects (2-3). If the deck plays B-Wish then I could see Savinne's Rec in the SB. 4 Veil and 4 Discard would be crucial. I think the question in 5c is what color do you play as your second most played color? I think it has to be B or R, but I guess a case could be made for W for E-Tutor (I just don't like the card). Maybe something like this:

4 Underworld Breach

Win Con (5)
3 Brain Freeze
3 Burning Wish

Fast Mana and Fixing (11)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Arcum's Astrolabe

Selection (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtscour

Protection (10)
3/4 Veil of Summer
4 Thoughtseize
2/3 Silence

Lands (16)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

I don't think you would play white just for 2 silence effects? White's draw is Etutor. Your deck will probably improve if you cut white go down to a 4C mana base and replace the 2 silence's with Veil + discard/draw. If you don't like Etutor, you don't play white and you make due with Infernal tutor or just more draw spells (or Bob, a suggestion I like, and Library, my own suggestion which I'm itching to try once I get out of work).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shojeel

I think you are looking at IT as an all-in card only. It can also turn itself into any other card in your hand.

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It can. But because we're an A+B+C+protection deck, most of the time we want to find a card that's not already in hand, unlike ANT where finding extra rituals is enough to go off. Finding a 2nd Breach or 2nd Silence is useful in some scenarios, but probably less often than in other IT decks. Finding a cantrip for 2 mana at sorcery speed (huge tempo cost) is pretty bad. Unless it can find exactly what your hand needs most times, would IT be better as some other card?

One of the Grixis builds linked in the primer uses Wishclaw Talisman instead of IT for its flexibility without LED. TES has started doing the same. Wishclaw may deserve a look. It also turns on Mox Opal to improve fixing for 4c.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shojeel

I think with the non-G builds we want to use our mana every turn, including T1 (unless saving for a BS and fetch for T2), but in most cases I want to cast ponder, preordain, astrolabe, or thoughtseize on T1.

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Mana optimization seems important. Thoughtseize does help that, by allowing you to spend protection mana on any turn instead of on the combo turn.

Have you tested Astrolabe in real games? I ran it many iterations ago and cut it, finding it too slow. If you do run it, it makes Mox Opal better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shojeel

I'll get some games in with the UBrg list tonight. My gut tells me that UBRw is correct though....at least for 4c.

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Check out the the 4c 5-0 lists linked in the primer. They may be a good starting point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shojeel

Is there a 5c list we should try?

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5C is a big hit to the manabase. There has to be a really good reason for each color. Otherwise 4c seems better.

Before Breach was printed, I goldfished 300+ games across many different iterations of the deck in different color combinations and different manabases. Even 4C started causing mana consistency issues. 5C has mana problems. Astrolabe and Opal could help. Test it out. I think unless you can really justify each color, fewer colors is better in a meta where Delver and D&T are tier 1. Fair blue decks are currently favorable matchups for the Jeskai build. That could change with a switch to 5C.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cire

I tried fooling around with with 5C but it seems too crowded. For example:

... you'll probably run at least 3 Etutors, because otherwise why play white, you'll run probably at least 3 Veils, because why run green otherwise, and at least 3 discard and some number of Infernal Tutor (and maybe sluice), because why run black otherwise. That's at least 11-12 cards leaving you only 3-4 other cards .... so you'll probably up that to 4 veil and 4 discard, leaving you about 2 cards extra for protection.

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I agree. We don't have a lot of flex slots, and you have to devote more space to fixing. It seems crowded. Does the benefit justify the cost?

ETutor also gets worse when you don't run the ETutor package (Grinding Station main, Seal main or SB, etc). If you don't run the package and have another maindeck tutor (IT or Burning Wish), maybe you don't want ETutor at all. At that point, do you even need white just for Silence? Veil + Defense Grid could be good enough. Sevinne's can be in the Wishboard without any white sources main. LED/Petal/Astrolabe makes white.

I have been playing real games with the 4c. 5c will happen tonight or tomorrow. And I’ll play in at least a league tomorrow. I think you are underestimating silence, but maybe I am wrong and tutor is better. I will try it out but I have had plenty of goldfishing to turn 2-5 where silence with backup Veil is really good. Astrolabe enables a lot of “off color” interaction. I don’t like E-tutor but I do like Chants and Mentor plus StP in the side. Chants are also really good in the mirror or TES and most other combo decks.

For additional fixing I can see Mox Opal. Maybe cutting preordain? Switch B-wish to Wishclaws? I like have answers in the side, mostly because we have no more “free” interaction due to FoW getting cut. E-tutor in that slot almost forces us to run a Seal and a G-Station.

In any case, I think it comes down to me realizing that we don’t need to go faster. We need to interact and stop our opponent when and if we need to. This makes me miss FoW but I digress. We don’t need to be fast, we need to set ourselves up so our opponents can’t stop us.

I look forward to some real 5c games.

Pact of Negation is often overlooked as one of the best cards in the deck when going off. The fact that it’s free after an initial use helps because you don’t need a mana investment when it’s in your graveyard - just three cards. But that’s been critical every time I’ve won games having a “free” counter.

I like your Grixis build. How useful was Bob? What was your loss to in the Legacy Prelim?

Dystopia and Plague Engineer are interesting. I'm guessing you chose 3cc answers on purpose (Chalice, Prelate)? How did they perform? Did Dystopia ever kill an Oko?

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

Pact of Negation is often overlooked as one of the best cards in the deck when going off. The fact that it’s free after an initial use helps because you don’t need a mana investment when it’s in your graveyard - just three cards. But that’s been critical every time I’ve won games having a “free” counter.

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I agree. Pact is very strong. Most good Jeskai lists run 1-2 copies. Jbinder's RUG build runs 2 copies.

There was a lot of discussion about it in the old thread. If you carefully manage your graveyard size, Pact is active at all windows of interaction!

Cast Breach (Pact is in your hand to counter their spell)
Breach resolves
Crack LED for UUU (Pact goes to graveyard before opponent has priority and can be immediately escaped)
combo off (Pact is in graveyard to escape)
etc..