4 Card Blind: Ban-Back Better

It's been a while since we played right?
A solid year since any posts in the thread?
Well, maybe we should play again?

SCORES
SUBMISSIONS

Tha rules: (edits in bold)
Normal 4cb. Perfect info, perfect play, Legacy card pool, yadda yadda yadda.
New cards: Wotc posts new cards all the time because they're milking us dry. If a new card is revealed that you have to have it will be legal the game-week after it's been spoiled for a full week. We'll use mythic spoiler for reveals.*
Season Gimmick: Creativity by Force!
1) Initial banned list: All "my deck is empty, I win the game" cards are banned. Laboratory Maniac, Thassia's Oracle, etc.
2) At the end of each week, all cards used are banned. Basic lands excepted.
3) At the end of each week, for each card in your deck used by another player your score will be reduced by one. This effect is cumulative. Basic lands do not count towards this**
4) If all four of you cards are in use by other players and you do not win a single game you shoot the moon, like in hearts, and we'll give you some points. Basic lands here are also disqualifying I don't know how many yet but some amount. Maybe however many the leader go this round? Turn all your losses into wins? Invert the penalty? I'm open to suggestions.

*Basically a card needs to have been posted for two deadlines before you can use it. A card revealed the day before deadline 1 will be legal in week 3.
** -2 for each other copy of the card in the field, so if you and I have identical decks that's -8 for each of us. If a third player then has one shared card it's -10.


Any questions?
Any interest?
Signup now!

ROUND 6 DEADLINE: 2 April, 6am US Central Time

Scores after 4 rounds:

#		R1	R2	R3	R4	R5	R6	Total	Change
1	DTE	18	16	5	9	18		66	+18
2	Wrath of Pie	13	13	2	2	9		39	+9
4	FTW	0	9	5	16	0		30	-
5	Silkster	13	0	0	14	10		37	+10
6	GoblinSmashmaster	-	-	10	12	10		32	+10
7	Four Dogs Ina Horsesuit	2	2	16	0	9		20	+9
8	Asthreal	7	7	0	0			14	-

New Banned list:
Initial cards plus,
reclaim
llanowar mentor
vengeful pharaoh
lotus petal
rite of flame
empty the warrens
geier reach sanitarium
saprazzan skerry
show and tell
emrakul, the aesons torn
undiscovered paradise
thoughtseize
durkwood baloth
stormkirk noble
inquisition of kozilek
volatile fault
bitterblossom


Cabal Therapy
Dark Depths
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Vampire Hexmage
Saprazzan Cove
Force of Negation
Subtlety
Gadget Technician
Mental Misstep
Scythe Tiger
Forest
Surgical Extraction
Scrubland
Doomed Traveler
Path to Exile
Thespian's Stage
Young Wolf
Hexdrinker
Overgrown Tomb


reanimate
grief
force of despair
chancellor of the forge
pyrokinesis
leyline of the meek
bayou
swarm shambler
blackmail
pithing needle
agadeem's awakening
leyline of sanctity
leyline of the guildpact
scion of draco
serra's sanctum
ghost quarter
memnite
city of traitors
leyline of anticipation
volcanic island
tropical island
field of ruin
burning inquiry
tropical island
nether spirit
crashing footfalls
chronomaton
burning inquary
foil
Ancient Tomb
Damping Sphere
leyline of the void
mutavault
Chancellor of the Annex
Karakas
Lion's Eye Diamond
Unburial Rites
Foundtain of Cho
Wasteland
Solitude
Evil Presence
Unmask
Corpulent Corpse
Cenn's Tactician
Leyline of Singularity
Force of Will

Can we ban all the stupid attraction and sticker cards WOTC has put upon us?

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Can we ban all the stupid attraction and sticker cards WOTC has put upon us?

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I definitely don't like them, and am going to day no to stickers because I don't want to handle the compounding calculations of which 10 sticker sheets were optional and then which random 3 were the worst, and then the optional one of those three.
Dungeons and attractions are cards though so if two players do an attraction deck though they'll each end up with minus 10 just because of the matching attraction deck, and then those ten being removed says there's only 11 remaining so at most the ban policy says we can only have attractions twice.
Same with dungeons and initiative.
E: also you can include an attraction deck in a deck that doesn't use attractions so you can work towards banning them yourself.

Even if we allow attractions we won’t allow sideboards for wish/companion right?

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Even if we allow attractions we won’t allow sideboards for wish/companion right?

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Correct.
That's the standard, right?

The traditional standard is that cards outside the game effectively don't exist. Of course this was far simpler in the days without non-traditional Magic cards like dungeons and the like, but effectively none of that works. (It's arguable whether or not dungeons/initiative make Card Blind better, of course.)

4) needs to exclude draws for obvious reasons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

The traditional standard is that cards outside the game effectively don't exist. Of course this was far simpler in the days without non-traditional Magic cards like dungeons and the like, but effectively none of that works. (It's arguable whether or not dungeons/initiative make Card Blind better, of course.)

4) needs to exclude draws for obvious reasons.

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Draws are the risk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

The traditional standard is that cards outside the game effectively don't exist. Of course this was far simpler in the days without non-traditional Magic cards like dungeons and the like, but effectively none of that works. (It's arguable whether or not dungeons/initiative make Card Blind better, of course.)

4) needs to exclude draws for obvious reasons.

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Draws are the risk. Esp in the early rounds where the most common cards are pretty predictable and I can just name the four most common cards in 4cb.

Oh i forgot you could run the same card twice. how about 5)
For the purposes for any points other than W/L/Ds a duplicate card does not count. You cannot shoot the moon with two copies of the same card in starting deck.

I think y'all are talking across each other regarding draws. Rule 4 says "you do not win a single game", but that happens somewhat often in draw-heavy rounds. I think Wrath of Pie is saying that the rule should be that you must lose every single game. Or maybe not, in which case I propose that you should have to lose every game. Though that's kind of not hard to do if you only run cards you can't cast or just four basics. I suppose the challenge is playing played cards. Also, if two people just *try* to shoot the moon, then they'll draw and neither will succeed. Though I suppose that's okay?

I don't think duplicates will come up much, but I think the thing to do is to say that two decks both playing two copies of something overlap twice, but one copy here and two copies there overlap only once.

Do we want basic lands to be exempt from points penalties?

Forcing a diverse meta and then banning every single card is going to make the banlist massive, but I'm good with that.

That's an oversight, yes basic lands should be excepted from penalties.
I did remember to except them from bannings.

Purely by coincidence I log in to this forum, and behold: 4Dog launches new 4CB!
I wish I weren't so busy right now... But I'll try to join for sure.

I have no preferences for rules, bannings, formats or whatever.
Just play what you guys think is cool and if it needs adjusting we can always be adjusting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

I think y'all are talking across each other regarding draws. Rule 4 says "you do not win a single game", but that happens somewhat often in draw-heavy rounds. I think Wrath of Pie is saying that the rule should be that you must lose every single game. Or maybe not, in which case I propose that you should have to lose every game. Though that's kind of not hard to do if you only run cards you can't cast or just four basics. I suppose the challenge is playing played cards. Also, if two people just *try* to shoot the moon, then they'll draw and neither will succeed. Though I suppose that's okay?

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Losing every game is way harder than drawing every game if you have to submit cards that are shared by other players. It also gets easier the more entries there are (because there are more cards in the eligible pool). Granted, the idea behind both is the same - since there is no actual attempt to win, you instead try to guess what other people are submitting (other than any way to generate mana, naturally).

Also, shooting the moon in hearts is basically similar in that you have to take every point card, so the best way to mimic that here is to require the losing.

It does seem very easy to just name 4 common non-basic non-wincon cards if there are a lot of people. It should at least require outright losses.

Not that I suspect anyone of doing this, but collusion instantly wins the round, just both name any 4 interactive cards and you shoot the moon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

It does seem very easy to just name 4 common non-basic non-wincon cards if there are a lot of people. It should at least require outright losses.

Not that I suspect anyone of doing this, but collusion instantly wins the round, just both name any 4 interactive cards and you shoot the moon.

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This would actually be really funny if it happened by accident, but it would only be funny to those two people. To everyone else...

Shooting the moon in Hearts is something that only one person can do. If two people try it simultaneously, it's a disaster for both. So not allowing draws does seem fitting.

My additional thoughts on the rules are the same as Asthereal's: Anything is fine, and we can fix it as we go, as long as the rules are clearly understood.

Should we be filling out the Sing Up Sheet. It looks like people might have missed it or been overwhelmed by the very difficult questions.

I'm just glad someone else signed up!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

This would actually be really funny if it happened by accident, but it would only be funny to those two people. To everyone else...

Shooting the moon in Hearts is something that only one person can do. If two people try it simultaneously, it's a disaster for both. So not allowing draws does seem fitting.

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This is a good point. "Losing every game while having only cards that others play and would cost you" ensures that only one person can achieve this each round, and it seems very difficult to do.
I would vote to award max points for a round for this. So in my old seasons that'd be 6 points. (And no loss of points for the cards, in this case.)

EDIT: I'm also in, by the way.

Also in, and thanks for organizing this!

I'll play. Thanks for organizing!

I want to do a test round to see if I have all the behind-the-scenes stuff setup right. And to sample a round.
Please submit your deck. 6am Monday is the deadline.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

I want to do a test round to see if I have all the behind-the-scenes stuff setup right. And to sample a round.
Please submit your deck. 6am Monday is the deadline.

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I got sick and missed a few days of forum. And other stuff, but that's not important now.
When's the deadline? Next Monday? Which timezone should I count for 6AM?

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I got sick and missed a few days of forum. And other stuff, but that's not important now.
When's the deadline? Next Monday? Which timezone should I count for 6AM?

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Feel better soon!
Also it's a meaningless test round to demonstrate rules and make sure I set up all the sheets and redirects correctly.
Central time. It's currently 830 here. Compare that to the localized timestamp on my post for the time zone.

What does meaningless round means?

Should we submit a bad/random deck then, or our treasured best bet?

Otherwise, very nice submitting system!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Feel better soon!
Also it's a meaningless test round to demonstrate rules and make sure I set up all the sheets and redirects correctly.
Central time. It's currently 830 here. Compare that to the localized timestamp on my post for the time zone.

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Localized timestamp tells me you posted at 3:30PM, so you definitely don't mean Central European Time. :wink: (That's where I'm at.)
So I'm +8 from you, meaning I have until halfway the afternoon on d-day to get a deck in.

I already have one though. It's a tribute to the person who's reviving my old thing. :cool:
I'll put it in the form so you can see how things look when people send stuff in.

Cards 3 and 4 are not required on the form for some reason

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Cards 3 and 4 are not required on the form for some reason

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noted

Reminder: Sample test round deadline is less than 10 hours from 12 minutes ago!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Localized timestamp tells me you posted at 3:30PM, so you definitely don't mean Central European Time. :wink: (That's where I'm at.)
So I'm +8 from you, meaning I have until halfway the afternoon on d-day to get a deck in.

I already have one though. It's a tribute to the person who's reviving my old thing. :cool:
I'll put it in the form so you can see how things look when people send stuff in.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Reminder: Sample test round deadline is less than 10 hours from 12 minutes ago!

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Looks like -16 was also a solution?

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Originally Posted by dte

Looks like -16 was also a solution?

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It's a 24 hour clock, but I think you might end up on the wrong day of the week if you go that way

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

It's a 24 hour clock, but I think you might end up on the wrong day of the week if you go that way

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Well, Asthereal thought he had until mid afternoon Monday, turns out it is midnight Sunday in Europe.
So, more -6 than +8, or did I miss something - besides 10 hours ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

Well, Asthereal thought he had until mid afternoon Monday, turns out it is midnight Sunday in Europe.
So, more -6 than +8, or did I miss something - besides 10 hours ?

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What? Europe has Monday before I do

Oh I meant 22, or something

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Oh I meant 22, or something

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I am quite familiar with writing here the wrong date :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

I am quite familiar with writing here the wrong date :)

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I think I thought it was Sunday when I posted
I have a two month old so just assume I'm wrong about anything for the next few years until she can sleep through the night

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

I think I thought it was Sunday when I posted
I have a two month old so just assume I'm wrong about anything for the next few years until she can sleep through the night

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Noted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Reminder: Sample test round deadline is less than 10 hours from 12 minutes ago!

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Wait, I'm confused. When you declared your time to be 8:30, did you mean PM? I assumed you meant AM, which puts you in Chicago time, which makes the deadline 11 hours and change from now.

You have 10 hours from now.
Right?
4+6?

TEST ROUND ENTRIES:
4 Dogs: Dryad Arbor, Subterranean Hangar, Dark Ritual, Razorlash Transmogrant Notes: N/A
Asthereal: Hickory Woodlot, City of Traitors, Mongrell Pack, Akroan Horse Notes: Four dogs in a pack and four soldiers in a horse suit is as close as I came to your name. :)
Wrath of Pie: Botanical Sanctum, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Crashing Footfalls Notes: Can't submit a deck if the comprehensive rules don't define it as one
dte: Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar, Chancellor of the tangle, Grief, Aether vial Notes: N/A
Silkster: City of Traitors, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Noxious Revival Notes: N/A
E: Bonus TestUser Testy McGee: Forest, Subterranean Hanger, Dark Ritual, Grief

See, I had until the middle of the afternoon. I as completely correct. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

TEST ROUND ENTRIES:
4 Dogs: Dryad Arbor, Subterranean Hangar, Dark Ritual, Razorlash Transmogrant Notes: N/A
Asthereal: Hickory Woodlot, City of Traitors, Mongrel Pack, Akroan Horse Notes: Four dogs in a pack and four soldiers in a horse suit is as close as I came to your name. :)
Wrath of Pie: Botanical Sanctum, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Crashing Footfalls Notes: Can't submit a deck if the comprehensive rules don't define it as one
dte: Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar, Chancellor of the tangle, Grief, Aether vial Notes: N/A
Silkster: City of Traitors, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Noxious Revival Notes: N/A

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Results for test round:
4 Dogs: Dryad Arbor, Subterranean Hangar, Dark Ritual, Razorlash Transmogrant WW
Okay, I think you trade Arbor for the Pack, but your 3/1 doesn't block, and I get an extra 1/1 every turn so my team gets bigger every turn and my clock is faster.

Asthereal: Hickory Woodlot, City of Traitors, Mongrel Pack, Akroan Horse <-me

Wrath of Pie: Botanical Sanctum, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Crashing Footfalls LL
I can't cast things. Booh! Too good for test round.

dte: Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar, Chancellor of the tangle, Grief, Aether vial LL
Ugh, too complicated. But I'm guessing your deck with actual cards will defeat the memes. I'll write up LL for now.

Silkster: City of Traitors, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Noxious Revival LL
12/12 trample is pretty good against my randomness.

Total: 6 points, minus what I lose for the City of Traitors.

4 Dogs: Dryad Arbor, Subterranean Hangar, Dark Ritual, Razorlash Transmogrant Notes: N/A
6-0

Asthereal: Hickory Woodlot, City of Traitors, Mongrell Pack, Akroan Horse Notes: Four dogs in a pack and four soldiers in a horse suit is as close as I came to your name. :)
Pretty good name mimic!
Less good 4cb deck, 6-0.

Wrath of Pie: Botanical Sanctum, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Crashing Footfalls Notes: Can't submit a deck if the comprehensive rules don't define it as one
1-4 I think?
Didn't do the maths but seems right :)

dte: Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar, Chancellor of the tangle, Grief, Aether vial Notes: N/A
Me, with the longest card name for the longest pseudo meme. Quite less inventive than Asthereal.

Silkster: City of Traitors, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Noxious Revival Notes: N/A
0-6, noxious too good for me.

E: Bonus TestUser Testy McGee: Forest, Subterranean Hanger, Dark Ritual, Grief
4-1, the sad mirror.