[Deck] CounterSliver

Alrighty, since it was getting so confusing to keep the list updated with so much junk clogging the first post, I'm starting from scratch and just posting the most recent list here. If you don't understand the card choices already, odds are you don't know enough about the deck to start posting right away anyway. Give it a few test runs if you don't understand.

The List:
Last Updated: 10/5

//Land (17)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures (16)
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Countermagic (10)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle

//Removal (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

//Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Chain of Vapor/Disenchant/Naturalize/Something else to deal with enchantments and artifacts.

I like your post!
It's an interesting idea, and one that's viable since rifter is dying out more due to iggy pop's recent uprise. Unfortunatly everyone and their brother will play Iggy pop, so you need to find a respectable way to beat this game 1. I remember counter-slivers back in the day, was a fun deck. The reason I like this decklist over all other versions of it is that it's stream-lined. It's not trying to look like the tribal deck with the queen and overlord, it's trying to win games. Thresh looks like a bad matchup game 1, since they can make bigger creatures quicker, thus overrunning you, but since there isn't any evidence either way i can't prove it. I'd like to see this deck in action, need's a tourney report and some suggested changes at the end. For the moment I'd say stifle should swing iggy-pop heavily in your favor. especially since many iggy-pop players just picked up the deck and won't know how it works well enough to outplay you. -peace, j.j.

I don't think you will ever ever se the mirror.....ever. I hope you were being sarcastic. :P
Now I pose a question.:

Does E Plague hurt you? It is in a loyt of SB and that could pose a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Togit460

I like your post!
It's an interesting idea, and one that's viable since rifter is dying out more due to iggy pop's recent uprise.

---

:laugh: lol, I completely forgot about Rifter. It would be tough. Of course, if you can keep humility off the table (FoW, Chain of Vapor), you should be okay. Stifle is also fantastic here. But yeah, Rifter would be bad for us, since the entire deck is creature abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Togit460

I'd like to see this deck in action, need's a tourney report and some suggested changes at the end. For the moment I'd say stifle should swing iggy-pop heavily in your favor. especially since many iggy-pop players just picked up the deck and won't know how it works well enough to outplay you. -peace, j.j.

---

Why thank you :).

We should have a tourney report by this Friday when we take it to the weekly tourney, but it should also be noted here that our meta is seriously fucked up. Our meta is pretty much 7-8 versions of Gobs (hence the heavy testing), ranging from optimal to jank, a few builds of thresh, and random ass jank. We should clean up nicely, but it probably won't yeild terribly conclusive results.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Rack

I don't think you will ever ever se the mirror.....ever. I hope you were being sarcastic. :P
Now I pose a question.:

Does E Plague hurt you? It is in a loyt of SB and that could pose a problem.

---

I don't think E. Plague would hurt us that much. Between Muscle and Plated Sliver, you get enough of a toughness boost to keep your dudes from dying, and to be honest, only 2 of your slivers (Winged and Talon) die to E. Plague anyway. And those aren't even the 4-ofs. Every other sliver in the deck has 2 toughness, so they won't die to a single E. Plague. And the deck runs Chain of Vapor to deal with problem enchantments anyway. Sure, they'll replay it, but if you make sure you have counter backup, you can keep it from hitting the table again.

You're probably right about the mirror, though. We're not really taking this to any really big tourneys, so it probably won't gain popularity very fast, if at all. If someone else wanted to pilot it, though...:wink:

I love slivers.

But wouldn't you be better off playing UGBR Thres's manabase over UGWs?

You can play some burn.

You can play Dark Confidant.

You can play Blade Sliver and the new Sedge Sliver which is the best sliver ever printed.

Magma Sliver can be a good win condition if you need.

All the gold 2 mana for 2/2 slivers are very strong and you can run all of those but the veyr worst one.

Heart Sliver's haste is awesome

Just saying, you have a ton of better options than White gives you.

Just play a bunch of cantrips like thres instead of one drops.

Also, have you thought about Living Wish over Eldamarie's Call for it's versatility. You could run Talon Sliver along with Meddling Mages in the side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clark Kant

I love slivers.

But wouldn't you be better off playing UGBR Thres's manabase over UGWs?

---

If you lose white you lose STP, and Armageddon and Meddling Mage in the sideboard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clark Kant

All the gold 2 mana for 2/2 slivers are very strong and you can run all of those but the veyr worst one.

---

You're right that Victual Sliver sucks, but Crystaline Sliver is possibly the best ever.

Aether Vial didn't make the cut? And instant-speed slivers, too, oh my.

[QUOTE=Pinder;88026][*]Piledriver. Sure, you can run your 1/2 into my dudes

Pro Blue for the lose. Does Worship have any consideration?

engineered plague won't kill this deck for the same reasons it doesn't kill goblins decks, they have options to get rid of it or nullify the effects, hence mainboarded disenchants, naturalizes, goblin kings, etc.... slivers can do all of that except that muscle sliver is a cheaper more needed king anyways, which makes the plague a whole lot less effective, remember him saying how it helps nullify cards like pyroclasm, well, engineered plague works like that in this situation. of course 2 engineered plagues is GG without multiple muscle slivers are on the board, and if you can't keep it off with your wall of counters. I'd like the admin. for this board to rename this counter-sliver, since it's got the same idea, and i love that name. Thresh so far looks like the toughest matchup for this deck, with goblins being rather simple, and iggy-pop simply about playskill. B/W deadguy ale might be more interesting though, i think that the main reason to stay with UGW manabase and not go with exotic slivers should mainly be due to the presence of wasteland/sinkhole/rishadan port. all of these cards shut down that manabase more effectively than the UGW manabase. I certainly think that aether vial would be a decent inclusion if there's more slivers. it solves the counter-war over your creatures with thresh, and helps you save mana for counters/ability's. thoughts? -peace, j.j.

First off I wanted to thank everyone from their feedback, (im helping with the deck too btw).

Now, in regards to the suggestion to cut white, weve actually been trying out a BGR version, but its a totally different deck thats needs more testing.

Cutting white in this deck is basically out of the question. Crystaline sliver is the backbone of the deck. Not STP is the MVP of removal, plus plated sliver is pyroclasm protection with muscle sliver or himself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maverick676

Now, in regards to the suggestion to cut white, weve actually been trying out a BGR version, but its a totally different deck thats needs more testing.

---

Thats funny that you say that. As soon as I first read this thread I started brainstorming a BGR sliver deck with duress and bolt. Anyways, such a deck would need its own thread once a list is perfected.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goblin Snowman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pinder

[*]Piledriver. Sure, you can run your 1/2 into my dudes

---

Pro Blue for the lose. Does Worship have any consideration?

---

Wait, Piledriver's triggered ability has pro blue too? Oh NOES! Seriously, Stifle targets the ability, not the creature. We thought that at first too, though. It's just that Stifle is so awesome

Vial was in the original build, but we cut it because we'd rather just run more slivers (and it makes Chain of Vapor a little worse). It's honestly still a consideration, even if it's just SB against control, though.

As for Worship, we used to run 1 in the main, but it ended up being a little bit of a win-more card. Also has poor synergy with Chain of Vapor, but that honestly doesn't matter too much. I could see it in the sideboard as well, or possibly in the Talon Sliver slot, as Talon sliver is mostly there against Gobbos.

Honestly I'm just waiting for the white flanking sliver :laugh:.

EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MasterBlaster

Thats funny that you say that. As soon as I first read this thread I started brainstorming a BGR sliver deck with duress and bolt. Anyways, such a deck would need its own thread once a list is perfected.

---

I agree. The RGB version would be straight Aggro though, as opposed to this Aggro Control shell. All I can say is that T2 Muscle Sliver followed by T3 Sedge Sliver is the sexy.

Counter-Sliver is one of my all-time favorite decks. Your list seems really solid. I love the fact that you're running Eladamri's Call, btw. I was using that tech years ago, but I've never seen anyone else running it. UGW is definitely the way to go if you want to make a competitive sliver deck. RGB would never be anything more than a "fun" deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volt

RGW is definitely the way to go if you want to make a competitive sliver deck.

---

Did you mean UGW or are you serious about the deck dropping blue for red, if so I would be interested in what you would add in, specifically which slivers, to make up for the loss of crystaline sliver and counterspells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maverick676

Did you mean UGW or are you serious about the deck dropping blue for red, if so I would be interested in what you would add in, specifically which slivers, to make up for the loss of crystaline sliver and counterspells.

---

Oops. Yeah, I meant UGW. Sorry. I'm going to edit my post to fix it...

EDIT: Wow, Volt's last edit made my original post entirely irrelevant. UGW FTW!

On that note I've been thinking that this deck already has an impressive matchup with Gobs, so it's probably okay to cut a few cards to improve the Thresh/Gro matchup, even if it would soften the Gobs matchup a little. Take Stifle for example. I know I've been singing this card's praises ever since I posted this list (I mean, it is great), and it definitely fits, but mostly it's only great against Goblins and Storm. With the Thresh matchup, it doesn't really hit much except fetchlands, with Thresh being static and all. Maybe shaving a few of our cards down to 3-ofs to improve our Thresh matchup wouldn't be a bad idea. Maverick was suggesting MD Counterspells, which I agree would help with Thresh, but might be too mana intensive. Aether Vial could also fit in this slot to help against Thresh, I suppose. It would probably look something like:

-1 StP
-1 Chain of Vapor
-1 Stifle
+3 Counterspell/Aether Vial/Other card to help improve problem matchups

Further testing will ensue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pinder

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Stifle
2 Eladamri's Call

---

Wait... I just realized you have 63 cards maindeck. You gotta cut something. How important are the Chain of Vapors?

[EDIT: Also, I agree a couple of hard counterspells would be good. How about:

-4 Chain of Vapor
-1 Stifle
+2 Counterspell ]

There's a player in my area who plays Slivers regularly. He runs Aether Vial. Personally, I don't see the point of using up slots for an artifact that will only be used to cast a 2cc creature for free two turns later.

Pinder actually got the main deck a little wrong, the actual list is
- 1 serum visions
- 1 flooded strand

so there is actually 61 cards (oops), but im hesitant to say what card gets cut until i discuss with pinder. My guess is that it will either be 1 land or stifle possibly. Since chain of vapor is so freakin great in this deck.

at least two more cards need to be cut to make room for counterspells though, Ill test without chain probably but i still really like it, its a great way to answer engineered plague, aether vial ect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maverick676

Pinder actually got the main deck a little wrong, the actual list is
- 1 serum visions
- 1 flooded strand

so there is actually 61 cards (oops), but im hesitant to say what card gets cut until i discuss with pinder. My guess is that it will either be 1 land or stifle possibly. Since chain of vapor is so freakin great in this deck.

at least two more cards need to be cut to make room for counterspells though, Ill test without chain probably but i still really like it, its a great way to answer engineered plague, aether vial ect.

---

I wouldn't go below 17 land. I think we can take a lesson from UGW Gro, since this is basically the same deck except with slivers instead of thresh creatures. Gro always plays 17-18 lands.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maverick676

Pinder actually got the main deck a little wrong, the actual list is
- 1 serum visions
- 1 flooded strand

---

Oh, did I? Oops. The decklist above has been changed.

At any rate, I agree with Volt that we shouldn't drop below 17 lands. 17 is stretching it a little thin as is, and any lower would open us up to mana screw, especially in a three color deck.

I agree with you though that pulling another Serum Visions is probably better than pulling Chain of Vapor. 6 Cantrips is a little low, but we might be able to make it work.

And what do you think about upping the Call count by one? At only 2 I hardly ever see it. This could also be a good argument for cutting it, but it's close enough to Demonic Tutor in this deck that I'm hesitant to do that. It might just be that it's main purpose is to nab Winged Sliver so you can fly over for lethal once you've built up your Sliver base.

As for what to cut, I'm with you that 1 serum visions is the right call to get the deck down to 60. I still have no idea what to cut for the counterspells though.

I really think that 2 is the right number for call though, because of the mana cost you dont really want to see more than one per game if at all since its main purpose is to tutor for winged or talon sliver. I definitly wouldnt cut it for anything but living wish.

To continue upon the living wish train of thought I think it might be better than call because it would free up deck space and allow for counterspells in the main deck without cutting cantrips, stifle or bounce, plus you would get some utility like ronom unicorn and sex monkey.

Ive been trying to come up with a few ideas on how to beat Iggy-Pop since this matchup is horrible. At first I thought about more counters but thats not really the problem. Defense grid is what really kill this deck in the Iggy match, it prevents all your counters and stifle from doing their job, so the deck needs an answer that is not a responsive spell.


Heres what Ive thougt of:

- Tormod's crypt, sac in responce to Ill gotten gains
- Leyline of the void = GG in most cases
- Planar Void - this would require a black spash however
- Samurai of the pale curtain WW might be rough but Iggy has no land disruption so it would probably be okay. This would only prevent reccurring lion's eye though, which im not sure would be enough to stop the combo.
- Chalice for 0 - again hating on the diamond, question is would this slow iggy down enough to stop the combo?

Of all these ideas i think leyline would be the best, mulliganning down to it would be painful but if you drop this before the game starts and then mage naming their bounce it would be GG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maverick676

As for what to cut, I'm with you that 1 serum visions is the right call to get the deck down to 60. I still have no idea what to cut for the counterspells though.

I really think that 2 is the right number for call though, because of the mana cost you dont really want to see more than one per game if at all since its main purpose is to tutor for winged or talon sliver. I definitly wouldnt cut it for anything but living wish.

To continue upon the living wish train of thought I think it might be better than call because it would free up deck space and allow for counterspells in the main deck without cutting cantrips, stifle or bounce, plus you would get some utility like ronom unicorn and sex monkey.

Ive been trying to come up with a few ideas on how to beat Iggy-Pop since this matchup is horrible. At first I thought about more counters but thats not really the problem. Defense grid is what really kill this deck in the Iggy match, it prevents all your counters and stifle from doing their job, so the deck needs an answer that is not a responsive spell.


Heres what Ive thougt of:

- Tormod's crypt, sac in responce to Ill gotten gains
- Leyline of the void = GG in most cases
- Planar Void - this would require a black spash however
- Samurai of the pale curtain WW might be rough but Iggy has no land disruption so it would probably be okay. This would only prevent reccurring lion's eye though, which im not sure would be enough to stop the combo.
- Chalice for 0 - again hating on the diamond, question is would this slow iggy down enough to stop the combo?

Of all these ideas i think leyline would be the best, mulliganning down to it would be painful but if you drop this before the game starts and then mage naming their bounce it would be GG.

---

Why not run some combination of Chalice & Crypt? Both fit right into your mana curve without disrupting either your tempo or your gameplan. They also have utility against a number of other decks. You might also consider Null Rod, which doesn't hurt you but does affect a numberof other decks, although it would mean not running Crypt obviously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scrumdogg

Why not run some combination of Chalice & Crypt? Both fit right into your mana curve without disrupting either your tempo or your gameplan. They also have utility against a number of other decks. You might also consider Null Rod, which doesn't hurt you but does affect a numberof other decks, although it would mean not running Crypt obviously.

---

Chalice just plain doesn't make sense for this deck. I was actually thinking Engineered Explosives might be good as an answer for Chalice, as well as blowing up other random nuisances. I think the Gro builds that run EE are better than the ones that don't, so it's worth considering for this deck, too.

Null Rod is a great sideboard card that doesn't get enough play, imo. It's awesome against Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Iggy Pop, and some other decks. I think it might actually hurt Iggy Pop more than Tormod's Crypt does. It's even decent against Vial Goblins, although I would rather have Pithing Needle for that matchup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volt

Chalice just plain doesn't make sense for this deck.

---

Yeah, when 20+ cards in the MD cost 1 mana, chalice doesn't make any sense at all. In fact, Chalice is one of the things we have to worry about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volt

I was actually thinking Engineered Explosives might be good as an answer for Chalice, as well as blowing up other random nuisances. I think the Gro builds that run EE are better than the ones that don't, so it's worth considering for this deck, too.

---

We originally had 3 MD, but we took them out for specific reasons. First, there wasn't much at 1 mana that we couldn't already deal with MD. Second, EE for 2 kills all of our dudes. Third, EE for 3 doesn't happen often, and there's not a whole lot at 3 that we need to blow up, either. It would definitely be great as an answer to Chalice at 1, though, which makes it more than a consideration for the board, and possibly even to put back in the MD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volt

Null Rod is a great sideboard card that doesn't get enough play, imo. It's awesome against Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Iggy Pop, and some other decks. I think it might actually hurt Iggy Pop more than Tormod's Crypt does. It's even decent against Vial Goblins, although I would rather have Pithing Needle for that matchup.

---

That is actually a really good idea. Doesn't do much for our Thresh matchup, though. Oh well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maverick676

To continue upon the living wish train of thought I think it might be better than call because it would free up deck space and allow for counterspells in the main deck without cutting cantrips, stifle or bounce, plus you would get some utility like ronom unicorn and sex monkey.

---

You have a point, but you shouldn't forget that Call is instant, so you can do it at the end of their turn. The main thing I don't like about Wish here is that you have to play it on your turn, and usually you have to wait until next turn to drop the dude. Fetching Unicorns is sexy, though. Maybe we should try them out again.

I think that Crypt is our best sideboard choice here. It doesn't hit Iggy Pop like Null Rod does, but it also hits Thresh pretty hard, which is a matchup we need to improve on as well. If Iggy Pop starts showing in full force, though, Null Rod will probably be better.

Well it sounds like crypt is the way to go for the sideboard since it improves two matchups significantly, null rod is something i am considering for my meta since white weenie with equipment seems to be on the rise, but i already use needles, so null rods might not be needed.

I definitely think that hydroblast needs to be cut from the sideboard since the goblin match is so good already, this should free up some slots for crypts/wish targets should we decide to go that route over call.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volt

Chalice just plain doesn't make sense for this deck. I was actually thinking Engineered Explosives might be good as an answer for Chalice, as well as blowing up other random nuisances. I think the Gro builds that run EE are better than the ones that don't, so it's worth considering for this deck, too.

Null Rod is a great sideboard card that doesn't get enough play, imo. It's awesome against Faerie Stompy, Affinity, Iggy Pop, and some other decks. I think it might actually hurt Iggy Pop more than Tormod's Crypt does. It's even decent against Vial Goblins, although I would rather have Pithing Needle for that matchup.

---

I assumed we were talking about your combo matchups, which need shoring. Chalice at zero hurts Iggy, as does Chalice at one (also very good versus Solidarity & it hurts them much more than you). It should not affect you much since you would be siding out the STPs vs Iggy & probably the STPs and Chains versus Solidarity. Your solid win conditions are all 2cc, 1cc is set-up & utility. Null Rod is fine, but nothing to help your Solidarity match, Crypt is great versus Iggy & helps with Thresh but again does little to Solidarity.

The guy that brings Slivers is a friend of mine, and we have spent many afternoons playing Slivers vs. UG Madness, RGSA, TJS, the works.

The reason he runs Vial is that it opens up a world of combat tricks and ways to dodge removal. Just having Vial in play with two counters makes opponents change their plans for combat. Instat speed Crystalline Slivers are about the best thing ever.

Running one or two Essense Slivers also helps the aggro match, and makes Vial more useful. He also runs two Fact or Fiction, which is just plain crazy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maverick676

I definitely think that hydroblast needs to be cut from the sideboard since the goblin match is so good already, this should free up some slots for crypts/wish targets should we decide to go that route over call.

---

I completely agree. I came to the same conclusion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scrumdogg

Null Rod is fine, but nothing to help your Solidarity match, Crypt is great versus Iggy & helps with Thresh but again does little to Solidarity.

---

The thing here is, we don't really need help against Solidarity. The reason our Iggy Pop matchup is less than favorable is mainly because defense grid makes harder to keep them from going off. And that it sometimes goes off as early as turn 2. If we can keep Defense Grid off the table, Stifle owns Iggy Pop.

Now, Solidarity doesn't run MD Defense Grid, nor does it go off on turns 2-3 (It usually needs at least 4 lands). It also has to resolve High Tide to go off. So with FoW, Daze, and Stifle in the main, plus Geddons in from the board, the Solidarity matchup is already looking pretty solid.

Our problem matchups currently are Iggy Pop and Thresh. Since Crypt hits both of them, that makes it the best choice here in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Running one or two Essense Slivers also helps the aggro match, and makes Vial more useful. He also runs two Fact or Fiction, which is just plain crazy.

---

How many lands are you running? Because Essence Sliver costs 4. So does FoF. From what I can tell with testing, we can hit our first 3 land drops fairly consistently, but the 4th usually takes a bit of cantriping to hit. Both of those just seem pretty expensive. And our Aggro matchup is already pretty solid.

I agree that Aether Vial needs some definite reconsidering, though.

EDIT: And with Vial, I suppose that the cost on Essence Sliver isn't too much of a problem. And we could always bounce and replay it to get it back to two counters :laugh:. Maybe Essence as a 1 or 2 of as a Call target.

EDIT MORE: Or a wish target....

Goas, is that you?! I'm ducksoup31 on MOTL. If it's not you, ignore this.

I must say, I'm really liking the deck!

To respond to all the discussion about improving the aggro matchup, it is not nessecary since it's great already. Stifle against fetches and chain or vapor/swords completely ruins there tempo. Plus once you stabilize with 3 or 4 slivers they cant punch throught with anything short of a darksteel collosus or something.

The matchups that do need work are the Iggy-Pop specifically (not combo in general), and thresh tormod's crypts seem like a great answer for both of these since the main deck defense grids iggy plays are difficult to stop. Since they can play them while going off.

As for running more expensive slivers i just dont see a need. Sure essence is nice but not really an essenstial sliver at all, he's 4 mana and at 17 lands thats not a reliable turn 4 drop.

In regards to Aether Vial, while this card could let me play more expensive slivers it will make chain of vapor less than great because it will now screw you over too, And I REALLY like the chains of vapor theyre just so good in any aggro matchup, plus if your land flooded it can be used for suprisingly effective combat tricks.

BTW Ive already tested Fact or Fiction and found that 17 lands just cant support it reliably.

Would it make sense to have a single Meddling Mage maindeck as a Call target? Also, it just doesn't seem like there's enough room for both Chain of Vapor and Stifle in the deck. Which is more important? It sounds like Pinder really likes Stifle, while Maverick really likes Chain of Vapor.

Here's the decklist I have in mind right now:


4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver
1 Meddling Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
2 Eladamri's Call

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Meddling Mage

Volt your list looks good. I think your right about the chain of vapor/stifle issue, one needs to go. Which one I'm not sure. I think that will probably be metagame dependent. Chain is generally better against aggro, gobs being the exception, plus it provides an answer to anything that slips through the counters. Stifle is great against control, combo and specifically gobs (see pinders incredibly enthusiastic explanation)

As for maindeck mage im not so sure, its slow to come down probably not before turn 4+ with the call which might be too slow in the relevant matchups except solidarity then it would be golden game 1. Almost makes me want to go the living wish route for additional "maindeck" utility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maverick676

Volt your list looks good. I think your right about the chain of vapor/stifle issue, one needs to go. Which one I'm not sure. I think that will probably be metagame dependent. Chain is generally better against aggro, gobs being the exception, plus it provides an answer to anything that slips through the counters. Stifle is great against control, combo and specifically gobs (see pinders incredibly enthusiastic explanation)

As for maindeck mage im not so sure, its slow to come down probably not before turn 4+ with the call which might be too slow in the relevant matchups except solidarity then it would be golden game 1. Almost makes me want to go the living wish route for additional "maindeck" utility.

---

The more I think about it, the more I think I like Stifle over Chain. It's so good against wastelands, fetch lands, storm, various goblin shenanigans, and so on.

The lone maindeck Meddling Mage can come out. You're probably right about it being too slow. I also question how valuable the lone maindeck Talon sliver is. Maybe that could be relegated to the sideboard. That frees up two slots right there for Chains or something else (Pithing Needle?). I suppose you could even go with the 3 Stifle + 3 Chain of Vapor plan.


EDIT: Btw, other things Stifle is awesome against: Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orchard

I must say, I'm really liking the deck!

---

Well, thank you. And I'm not Goas, and I'm pretty sure Maverick isn't Goas. Volt might be Goas though. Check with him ;).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volt

It sounds like Pinder really likes Stifle, while Maverick really likes Chain of Vapor.

---

Now, I really like Stifle, but I also really like Chain of Vapor. If we end up putting more targetable permanents I can see Chain leaving rather than Stifle, but as it stands, under Crystalline (and sometimes even not) Chain of Vapor is just broken in this deck. Having a one mana answer to anything that sticks to the table is just fantastic.

For a brief overview, I give you a list of the pros and cons of each:

Stifle
Pros: Well, you know. Scroll up a bit.
Cons: Doesn't do too much against Thresh or anything else static, and also isn't the best topdeck in the late game.

Chain of Vapor
Pros: Answers just about anything, from pesky creatures (a la Meddling Mage) to problem enchantments or artifacts (a la Worship/Mongoose or something silly like that).
Cons: It's good, but it's really only fantastic under Crystalline Sliver, and even then only when your only other permanents are also Slivers (and land).

So, I think it comes down to our other inclusions. I haven't tested it, but Volt's list looks pretty nice. If we run Aether Vial/Meddling Mage/other non-Sliver permanents, I think that Chain of Vapor is out, as Swords is just as good of an answer to problem creatures, and we don't see too much by way of problem enchantments.

Optimally, I'd really like to see both stay in the deck, even if it's only in limited numbers. Between cantrips and fetches, we should still be able to get them when we need them. The only question there being, which do we usually need more? I'd go with Stifle here (suprising, no?). Here's a suggested list if both stay:

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Aether Vial
2 Counterspell
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Stifle

You'll notice that I cut the Calls for the Counterspells, and threw in the Vials. I also cut Stifle to 3, StP to 3, and Chains to 2. Now Calls for Counterspells might be a bad trade off, but I'm still not sold on Call as a 2-of. At that number, I just don't think we'll see it often enough for it to matter. I could be wrong though, but only more testing will prove that. Aether Vial seems like it warrants a little more testing here, but with only 15 creatures maindeck mutliples would be sort of useless, and my first thought is that eventually we're gonna run out of creatures to pump into this thing. If that ends up being the case, then we could cut them to bring the Stifle/StP count up to 4, and the Chain count up to 3. Or, if we end up cutting Chain entirely, we could add Call back in alongside Counterspell as a 3 of, which is a more appropriate number in my opinion if we want to see it reliably.

EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volt

The lone maindeck Meddling Mage can come out. You're probably right about it being too slow. I also question how valuable the lone maindeck Talon sliver is. Maybe that could be relegated to the sideboard. That frees up two slots right there for Chains or something else (Pithing Needle?). I suppose you could even go with the 3 Stifle + 3 Chain of Vapor plan.

EDIT: Btw, other things Stifle is awesome against: Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives

---

You're probably right about the lone Talon Sliver being less than great, especially since our Gobs matchup is reliably fantastic. The only issue I see here is that if we cut it, we would probably need to cut it for another Sliver, to keep the Sliver count (and creature count in general) the same. It could possibly turn into Winged Sliver number 3, which is generally more useful in most matchups anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pinder

Well, thank you. And I'm not Goas, and I'm pretty sure Maverick isn't Goas. Volt might be Goas though. Check with him ;).

---

I am not Goas. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pinder

//Land
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Talon Sliver

//Spells
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Aether Vial
2 Counterspell
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Stifle


You'll notice that I cut the Calls for the Counterspells, and threw in the Vials. I also cut Stifle to 3, StP to 3, and Chains to 2. Now Calls for Counterspells might be a bad trade off, but I'm still not sold on Call as a 2-of. At that number, I just don't think we'll see it often enough for it to matter. I could be wrong though, but only more testing will prove that. Aether Vial seems like it warrants a little more testing here, but with only 15 creatures maindeck mutliples would be sort of useless, and my first thought is that eventually we're gonna run out of creatures to pump into this thing. If that ends up being the case, then we could cut them to bring the Stifle/StP count up to 4, and the Chain count up to 3. Or, if we end up cutting Chain entirely, we could add Call back in alongside Counterspell as a 3 of, which is a more appropriate number in my opinion if we want to see it reliably.

---

Maybe your play-testing will prove differently, but I don't think Aether Vial will really help this deck all that much, aside from being able to do some nifty combat tricks from time to time. The deck simply doesn't run enough creatures to make the Aether Vials consistently useful. Also, they are susceptible to hate.

Regarding the Eladamri's Call, I think the proper way to look at them is not as "2x Eladamri's Call," but rather as "Crystalline Sliver 5-6," and "Winged Sliver 3-4." Just my opinion. Of course, Counterspell is pretty good, too. :wink:

Well after looking at everyones list heres what im considering for my friday tournament, results will probably show where cuts/additions should be made.

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest

4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver//Winged Sliver

4 FoW
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Stifle

SB-------------------
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Null Rod
3 Tormod's Crypt

Aether Vial Ive already tested and found that its less than stellar in this deck. I'm not trying to shut anyone down or anything but it seemed like every time this came online turn 1 it only let me play a free sliver that i had the mana for anyway. The vial is good enough however to warrant some further testing, It would be nice to go in response to your swords ill vial in crystalline MUHAHAHAHA. It would probably have to be a 4 of or nothing though, since you always want to play it first turn if possible.

I'm still not sure about which sliver should be in the main talon or winged? Usually you need about three or four slivers on the board to win and by that time your bigger guys are usaully 3/4's and 4/5's so if they have first strike they can cut down just about anything in the format except fatties like enforcer or something. In which case you aim a swords the fatty's way.
I guess the question im posing is whether it's better to have the evasion of flying or the board dominating first strike?

I have also upped the visions count by one since taking out call is just like taking out two slivers, visions should help find more slivers/answers which is always good.

A quick not on the sideboard: I am opting to run 2 null rods because at least 5 people in my meta are likely to play White Weenie with 12+ equipment and null rod gives them nightmares.

At first I was going to say Slivers, WTH.

However, the write up was pretty funny, and it isn't too bad, so lets see how it does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maverick676

I'm still not sure about which sliver should be in the main talon or winged? Usually you need about three or four slivers on the board to win and by that time your bigger guys are usaully 3/4's and 4/5's so if they have first strike they can cut down just about anything in the format except fatties like enforcer or something. In which case you aim a swords the fatty's way.
I guess the question im posing is whether it's better to have the evasion of flying or the board dominating first strike?

---

That's a really good question, and it's something I hadn't really thought about. I guess the conventional wisdom is that evasion trumps all, but I think your question merits play-testing to figure out the right answer. One point in Winged Sliver's favor is that flying does protect your crew against things like Flamebreak, Earthquake, etc. I don't think those cards are big concerns right now, though, unless there's a lot of Burninator in your area. I think this deck probably rolls over and dies to Burninator, anyway.

I really like the changes you made to the deck, although I would recommend keeping at least one Eladamri's Call in there. As I was telling Pinder, I think the proper way to think of it is not as some random spell that you rarely draw, but rather as an extra copy of whatever sliver you may happen to need. In any case, good luck on Friday night. I look forward to your report.

I think current format First Strike is better than flying, however, if you ran a one of and a call you could fetch the first strike of flying.