[Deck] UGb Aggro DAT

For those that don't know, DAT stands for Dredge-a-Tog. I'm sure there are countless other threads for DAT but I have yet to see any go with a more aggro approach. Anyway, I threw this together and played around with it for a few games and it seemed pretty solid. I figured I'd share the list, although I have absolutely no testing with it against any of the Tier 1 (unfortunately).

UGb Aggro DAT

Lands (20)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit
3 Lonely Sandbar

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Intuition
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Mox Diamond

I haven't gotten around to building a good sideboard, I just have some randomness thrown together for the moment (some Stifles, Needles, Krosan Grips, etc).

Basically, I wanted to try and fuse together Threshold and Psychatog sorta. Nimble Mongoose is just begging to get put into a deck with Loam, as is Wild Mongrel. Mongoose is a great Lackey blocker and is also great at slowing down opposing aggro strategies early on. It's a great alternate win condition to Psychatog (especially with Wonder), and it's a thorn in many peoples sides regardless. G for a 3/3 untargetable is a solid inclusion to DAT, IMO, especially since DAT is a typically slow deck. Wild Mongrel is great because it gives me an additional discard outlet if I have a Wonder or Genesis stuck in hand and it's also a fairly strong beater for 2... it's not Threshold dependant, it avoids color issues (like vs Mother of Runes), and it can get fairly large with Loam. Both provide excellent early game protection vs opposing fast aggro strategies and provide excellent alternate win conditions to Psychatog.

I wanted to try and encompass the 8 cantrip plan that I usually roll with because it helps out early game bad hands but also digs for stuff throughout the entire game while being very mana efficient. They increase the consistency of my plays and also help develop Threshold for Mongoose if I don't get an early Loam. Backed with the 8 cantrips, I run 3 Intution to either dig for Loam itself or toolbox (Cabal Pit, Wasteland, Lonely Sandbar, Wonder, Genesis). I considered some of my other options... Deep Analysis, Fact or Fiction, Careful Study, and so forth but none of them seemed better than the 4/4/3 config I have right now.

As far as countermagic goes, I found Counterspell a little slow in Aggro DAT since I typically curve out throughout most of the early and mid-game. It's somewhat weak vs Goblins usually and against combo I think it may be a bit too slow. It's great vs Threshold but I should be able to overwhelm Threshold with card advantage, since I have early game beaters to slow down their assault long enough. This is all theoretical for the moment though. I went with Daze because, although DAT is usually mana hungry, I felt that it was important to gain as much control over the early game as possible (getting my early beaters or Intuition etc to resolve). So far I've liked Daze, the return a land part hasn't seemed too counterproductive for what it's worth so far. I may find myself changing them to Counterspell, but for now I think Daze works better since I want to put aggro into play early on.

2 Loam seemed like an appropriate number with 3 Intuition, since multiples are usually pointless, but I fear with only 1 I may not be able to get one or keep ahold of one. This may get dropped down to 1, I'm not sure.

For removal, I figured I didn't need a ton since I am using aggro to trade with aggro (and I can board into removal g2 and g3 if necessary). 1 Darkblast can be tutored with Intuition and recurred to wreak havoc on things like Goblins, 1 Cabal Pit can be recurred with Loam to handle most things, and the 3 Pernicious Deed is insanely good, even with Mox Diamond. I enjoy Deed'ing things and then recurring my guys with Genesis, it's lovely. It helps give me card advantage vs just about everything... killing Vials (Deed + Wasteland wrecks Goblins), Werebears, Slivers, you name it. I run 3 so that I can grab 1 with Intuition if need be and 4 seems a bit overkill, at least MD.

To round the deck out, I run 20 lands with 4 Mox Diamond. Running only 20 lands hasn't seemed to be an issue so far... the 8 cantrip + basic Island enable me enough dig for the early game, especially since my guys curve at 1cc and 2cc, and Loam eventually overwhelms me with land. Mox Diamond with only 20 land hasn't been a problem so far, although I'm sure it's an eyesore to most. Basically, I like how it enables turn 1 Mongoose + cantrip, turn 1 Loam, or turn Mongrel plays (and turn 2 Intuition is very sexy too). It may seem counterproductive with Deed, but I actually think Mox Diamond and Deed go well together... the Mox helps me accelerate in Deed faster. Losing the Mox is rarely an issue if I get a Loam active anyway. It cannot be Wasted or Ported, so it helps out greatly against Goblins or even B/w Deadguy and B/r Sui. The acceleration is amazing vs just about everything else.

The deck is pretty fun to play and alot faster than typical UGb DAT and I think it solves alot of the problems that standard DAT builds had... simply too slow to keep up with Goblins and little to no way to beat combo. The combo matchup is probably bad still but I think with the additional aggro and potential sideboard options (such as Stifle and Duress), the deck shouldn't have a terrible matchup vs combo. I'm hoping for the Goblin matchup to be good and I will try to test this against Goblins when I can. As far as Threshold goes, I'm almost positive that this deck has a favorable matchup against it... but don't quote me on that.

Comment/Suggestions welcome, Discuss!
Enjoy ;)

Nice build Hanni. I've always been a fan of your work. But is there any reason you're running Serum Visions over AKs? Even something like Deep Analysis might be a slightly better option than Serum Visions. That's probably something you've already considered, but I would love to hear the reasoning behind that choice.

There's a long running thread on this topic here. Might give you some ideas.

Deep Analysis is a very strong draw option in this archetype because of its obvious synergy with the Dredge mechanic.

There are basically two directions to go with the archetype: extremely aggressive aggro-"combo", or control. A lot of the controlling builds run the AK/Intuition draw engine, but I think those builds tend to have the same failings as normal Tog in this format. I think an aggressive build is probably the way to go. The hard part is in finding the right balance of aggressiveness and ability to control the gamestate while protecting your threats.

In my experience with the archetype, it's seemed very potent and explosive, but also like it's trying to fit too many things into one deck. You have to dedicate a massive amount of resources to your various engines, and it tends to leave very little room for versatile control elements. If you can find the proper balance, though, it could theoretically be viable.

godzilla, the link doesn't work.

Is it possible to discard the top card of your library for psychatog or wild mongrel if you got future sight in play?

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Originally Posted by radley

godzilla, the link doesn't work.

Is it possible to discard the top card of your library for psychatog or wild mongrel if you got future sight in play?

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No, you can't. They errataed all the text that said "You may play... as though it were in your hand" to just "You may play..." because it made people think that you could discard it to mongrel or it could be duressed or anything along those lines.

Ok, that sucks then ^^

Is fact or fiction ok for this deck?

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Originally Posted by radley

Ok, that sucks then ^^

Is fact or fiction ok for this deck?

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No, it's too mana-intensive and doesn't help with things like Dredge here. Aaaaand...he has one draw engine anyway.

no cunning wish/beserk? I have been playing GAT quite a bit lately and i have fallen in love with the deck. Beserk has won me games I should'nt have. Mostly because of a huge dryad, but the trample abilty beserk gives can send that killing damage home. Also wishing for echoing truth is huge against TES right now.

The list looks solid, but I don't think the 8 cantrip plan is very good here. Brainstorm is an obvious include but visions seems out of place. You might consider a couple more lands to support mox diamond better and maybe a couple more counterspells or even misdirection ,as It could take care of pesky swords/REBs pointed at your tog.

4 mox D with 3 deeds really suck man.... and....you dont have any other spotremoval except for 1 darkblast. It has the same weakness as tog does...except for a bit more strenght then usual DAT-lists imho.

But don't see this to be a competetive deck, eventhough I love Tog and Loam :>

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Originally Posted by rockSTAR

4 mox D with 3 deeds really suck man.... and....you dont have any other spotremoval except for 1 darkblast. It has the same weakness as tog does...except for a bit more strenght then usual DAT-lists imho.

But don't see this to be a competetive deck, eventhough I love Tog and Loam :>

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I have to disagree with you. Mox Diamond accelerates everything in the deck and feeds your graveyard. In combination with Pernicious Deed it can actually help you fill your graveyard to an even further extent. There really isn't any anti-synergies there with the interaction of those two cards.

I'm sorry that I failed to address specifically why I don't run cards like Eternal Witness, Cunning Wish, and Fact or Fiction. Let me explain:

Those cards are extremely slow. Witness does absolutely nothing to help against matchups that are already difficult... vs combo, it's a bad clock. Vs Goblins it also sucks... 3cc 2/1's won't help me slow down the early game assault. It makes my late game much stronger but I feel as though my late game is already incredibly strong. The same applies to Fact or Fiction... it's just too slow to help me when I need it and I already have a mid-late draw engine with Loam. As for Cunning Wish... I'm paying 3cc for a tutor and then however much for the tutored card, so by the time I cast the tutored card, I'm way behind. Intuition also costs 3cc but it's a necessary evil for the deck.

I don't run Accumulated Knowledge because, on it's own, it seems like a fairly bad draw card. Drawing 1 card for 2 mana is terrible. I realize with Dredge it gets a little better but I still find it lacking. I never Intuition for it... I have more important targets for Intuition and 5 mana for 3 cards doesn't seem overly amazing anyway.

I had considered Deep Analysis as well but dismissed it because it's only truly good if it's already in your graveyard, making it situational, and I should already have a draw engine by the time I can get to that point. An early Mongrel into Deep Analysis is nice, but I just find Serum Visions doing more for me throughout the entire game.

Again, I find the 8 cantrip plan to be amazing. It helps feed me lands early on with 1 Island in play through land disruption if that's the problem and it digs for important cards like Intuition/Loam in the early game without breaking my curve. It allows me to cast Mongoose and a cantrip in the same turn, it allows me to cast Mongrel and a cantrip in the same turn, and it digs for specific cards I need at the time. It's also a nice cheap pump spell for Mongoose (Threshold), all the while enhancing my card quality. The deck already gains massive card advantage through the Loam engine, Deed, Genesis, so on and so forth. With the cantrips, I can increase my card quality too. Basically, the 1cc of the cantrips are the premier reason I run them... they help speed up the deck alot more than a version with slower draw like Accumulated Knowledge. As an avid blue-based aggro/control player of various types (Thresh/Fish/Slivers/etc), I'm very aware of how strong the 8 cantrip plan is and why it's strong. I think adding some of those tempo concepts in DAT strengthens it greatly (even if you consider cantrip as a tempo loss, 1cc cantrip is much less of a tempo loss than something like Cunning Wish, for example).

I don't feel that the deck really needs Berserk with Mongoose and Mongrel... they quicken the clock quite a bit and, situation depending, can lower the opponent's life total enough to where Tog can go lethal much sooner. Berserk is extremely iffy and is extremely vulnerable to StP. Wonder usually gives me all the evasion I need... if not, I can either Deed or make multiple swings rather than 1 big one.

To address Godzilla:

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In my experience with the archetype, it's seemed very potent and explosive, but also like it's trying to fit too many things into one deck. You have to dedicate a massive amount of resources to your various engines, and it tends to leave very little room for versatile control elements. If you can find the proper balance, though, it could theoretically be viable.

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That was actually something I forgot to address in my original post. I agree that a balance between aggro, combo, and control needs to be found for the deck to work efficiently. I'm not sure exactly where I'm at so far but I'll find that out with further testing. Basically though, I love how the deck combines all 3 (kinda like Goblins). It allows the deck to change gears depending on the game state; it molds to the situation. The deck can go from being the beatdown, to the control, to the beatdown, over and over throughout the match. Of course, mis-assessing the correct role to play in a given match may lose some games... but the ability to be able to switch like that gives the deck incredible power, in my opinion.

Again, to address the land issue. I really need to do alot of testing to figure out how many lands and what kind of configuration to be run would be the optimal in here. For the handful of games I played randomly on MWS (with about half of them being some form of LD, whether it be a weird Stax deck I played or some other Loam variation), the manabase seemed to be fine with the slightly lower curves vs the traditional builds and the Loam itself to fix my mana. 20 lands with 4 Mox Diamond looks pretty bad on paper, I agree, and further testing with prove whether or not I need to increase the land count. For now I want to try and work with 20 and see if it works well... I don't really need too many lands total in the deck if I get Loam going anyway.

I realize the anti-synergy between Mox Diamond and Deed. However, Mox Diamond helps accelerate into Deed... Deed is a bit slow, costing 3cc just to cast it and then however much to blow it up (like, say, vs Goblins, they go Lackey into SCG... that means I need 8 mana). Loam pretty much cancels out whatever damage that Deed does to my manabase, but Deed is a necessary evil for dealing with all kinds of randomness from Vial to Jitte to creatures, etc etc. I also think that Mox Diamond is really strong in here for the acceleration... turn 1 Mongoose + cantrip is extremely strong, among the other possible plays (turn 1 Mongrel, turn 1 Loam, turn 2 Intuition, etc etc).

I also realize that my only actual removal is 1 Darkblast and 3 Pernicious Deed... but you're forgetting about the 1 of Cabal Pit and the fact that I'm using aggro creatures themselves as removal for opposing creatures. Mongoose is just as good as StP against a Lackey... Mongrel is just as good as a Smother vs a Piledriver. If I really need additional removal, I can board into it, but my aggro deals with opposing aggro (which is also recurrable)... and again I also run 1 Darkblast and 1 Cabal Pit for recurrable removal and 3 Pernicious Deed to wipe away everything.

I think the deck has the potential to be extremely strong in the format, though I'm sure alot more fine-tuning needs to be done to my current build. I also need to figure out a sideboard configuration but I'll do that as I playtest more and figure out the major weaknesses the deck now has (since it's quite a bit different from traditional DAT). Cards like Counterspell may eventually make their way into the deck... but for now, 4/3 Force/Daze backed with 3Deed has been sufficient for dealing with most problems. We'll see in time. Misdirection seems like it would be better relegated to the sideboard if anything, though.

Have you considered adding Cabal Therapy to make the deck more proactive?

I have just thrown together DAT based on your list with the following differences:

-4 Serum Visions
-3 Daze
-1 LftL

+2 Deep Anal
+3 Cabal Therapy
+1 Psychatog
+2 Stinkweed Imp

Basically I am sacrificing some early-game control for greater threat density and higher power-level.

I realise Deep Anal. is a bit situational but it just seems the best 2-off to round off the draw suit, especially since I am adding more dredgers and the ever-hungry Tog.

No Grave-Troll? He makes Tog friggin' huge in no time...seems like you'd want to include at least 1 to Intuition for.

Stinky seems strictly superior as for 1 less dredge it is:

1) useful as a creature not just as a corpse
2) cheaper
3) in our secondary colour
4) always castable (empty graveyard makes troll very sad and very dead)

I don't really feel as though the deck needs the additional dredge, since the deck wants to be actually drawing cards rather then dredging up stuff (with Loam, I get cycle lands). The Mongoose/Mongrel package can usually lower the life totals enough to where Psychatog can swing for lethal anyway so I don't really need to make Tog huge quick, but...

After playing a ton of games on MWS, I think a 1-of on Stinkweed may be a good idea. I didn't really feel I needed a 3cc creature removal card MD, but after having trouble with some fatties in a few games, I think a lone 1-of on Stinkweed may be a good idea. I'll give it a try. It doesn't seem like it's going to improve my Goblins or combo matchups but it should help a little with Threshold (Enforcer), AS (Exalted), etc etc.

-1 Life from the Loam
+1 Stinkweed Imp

I should be fine, at least MD, with only 1 Loam (I'm hoping), and it was the only questionable slot I could think of.

I'm still debating whether or not to run Counterspell over Daze too, but I'd rather run either of those over Cabal Therapy since they are in my main colors and pitch to FoW, as well as I don't want to sac guys early to play Cabal and later on (where it's effective with Genesis) it's usually not so good since the opponent's hand usually sucks and they typically topdeck into good stuff.

So far though, the deck has been running great. I love how I can so easily change the game state from being on the defensive/control role to being the aggro role after dropping a few Mongooses (post Thresh).

Oh, and also:

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Stinky seems strictly superior as for 1 less dredge it is:

1) useful as a creature not just as a corpse
2) cheaper
3) in our secondary colour
4) always castable (empty graveyard makes troll very sad and very dead)

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My secondary color is actually green, hence why I named the thread UGb and not UBg. I only splash black for 1 Cabal Pit, 1 Darkblast, 3 Pernicious Deed, and 2 Psychatog (and now 1 Stinkweed Imp), with green having a much stronger presence in the deck than black (although sideboard options may be heavy with black, I'm not sure).

An alternative to Counterspell would be Rune Snag. It is less colour demanding and has great synergy with dredge/pitch.

The problem I have with Troll is that it only does one thing in this deck and that's dredge. With the format the way it is I think you need cards that are able to fulfill different roles and that can be useful whenever they are drawn. I'd much rather see Stinkweed Imp than Troll.

I fixed the link in my first post in this thered. Here it is again. I strongly recommend reading through the entire thing, because it has a wide array of possible builds, some on the pure control end of the spectrum, and some on the pure combo end of the spectrum, with everything in between.

Also, I have to agree with Vetinari on the Grave-Troll issue. The Dredge count does matter, when you're dredging as many as 3 times in a single turn. It can mean the difference between a turn 4 kill and a turn 5 kill. Also, it is an insanely strong threat in the lategame by itself. Look how many other creatures you're running, and think how many will end up being dredged to the yard. Grave-Troll is an excellent early-game accellerant and doubles as a strong backup threat in the lategame. It deserves consideration.

I'll give Grave-Troll a try after I test some more with the current build, although I don't really think I need too much late game muscle in addition to Pyschatog. Stinkweed Imp can deal with problematic fatties that I can't otherwise touch with my other removal or aggro and it dredges for 5 so I want to try it out first.

As for sideboarding, this is what I put together so far:

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
3 Krosan Grip
4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed

After playing against Goblins, I decided I wanted to run Plagues in the board. Deed is nice but it's only a 3-of and it doesn't answer Goblins permanently. My opponent proceeded to cast 4 Matrons and 3 Ringleaders in game 2 (and a bunch in game 1) and I simply couldn't hold out forever (although the game did last quite long). I was about 2 turns off of being able to swing with Tog (had Genesis in Tog in yard but I needed to keep Genesis'ing up Mongooses to chump block). I may have made some mistakes in the 2/3 I played with my opponent, but I think E Plague + Stifle out of the board should give me a very favorable matchup as opposed to what is probably about a 50/50 or so. I'm not quite sure, I need to do alot more testing.

Against Thresh, I'm not sure... Duress is good vs them, as is Deed and Krosan Grip for Needle. Again, more testing needs to be done.

Against combo, the 4 Duress + 3 Stifle seems like a solid addition with the clock I have and I'm hoping it to be sufficient. The Duress may become Cabal Therapy... I don't know yet.

Any opinions on this?

Oh, and I had forgotten about Cephalid Coliseum.

-1 Polluted Delta
+1 Cephalid Coliseum

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Originally Posted by rockSTAR

4 mox D with 3 deeds really suck man.... and....you dont have any other spotremoval except for 1 darkblast. It has the same weakness as tog does...except for a bit more strenght then usual DAT-lists imho.

But don't see this to be a competetive deck, eventhough I love Tog and Loam :>

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STILL saying this. MoxD and Deed have such a big dissynergy that u simply CANT play them in 1 deck.... btw.... you play 17 real lands(cycling lands=spells) with 4 moxDs? Oo

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STILL saying this. MoxD and Deed have such a big dissynergy that u simply CANT play them in 1 deck.... btw.... you play 17 real lands(cycling lands=spells) with 4 moxDs? Oo

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Cyclers make for excellent Mox fodder as they become good only when LtfL comes on-line.

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STILL saying this. MoxD and Deed have such a big dissynergy that u simply CANT play them in 1 deck.... btw.... you play 17 real lands(cycling lands=spells) with 4 moxDs? Oo

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...and I'm still saying that I've been playing them both together and have not once, in the 10 or so times I've Deed'd away my Moxes, had any problems with this. Mox accelerates my early game... by the time I am able to Deed my Moxes, mana screw is not an issue. I run 20 lands... if I need to put a cycle land into play, I'll do so. Otherwise, they pitch to Mox all the same. 17 lands is fine since I run 8 cantrip and Loam to get me as many lands as I need anyway. I've been playing this deck literally all day yesterday and all day today and I have yet to ever get mana screwed due to Deed + Mox... actually, I don't think I've been manascrewed yet at all to be honest (though I'm sure it's bound to happen eventually).

EDIT: Yea I got manascrewed in a game just now... I opened with Trop, Sandbar, Mox... I put Mox into play discarding Sandbar, put Trop into play, cantripped, and proceeded to see no other lands and no Loam (though I did have an Intuition).

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Originally Posted by Hanni

...and I'm still saying that I've been playing them both together and have not once, in the 10 or so times I've Deed'd away my Moxes, had any problems with this. Mox accelerates my early game... by the time I am able to Deed my Moxes, mana screw is not an issue. I run 20 lands... if I need to play a cycle land, I'll do so. Otherwise, they pitch to Mox all the same. 17 lands is fine since I run 8 cantrip and Loam to get me as many lands as I need anyway. I've been playing this deck literally all day yesterday and all day today and I have yet to ever get mana screwed due to Deed + Mox... actually, I don't think I've been manascrewed yet at all to be honest (though I'm sure it's bound to happen eventually).

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I totally agree. I think that both cards actually have synergy with each other since you're ultimate goal is to feed your graveyard. That's a point that alot of people overlook when they see those two cards together.

I've played a lot of this deck. Some thoughts:

-You don't need that many fetchlands, probably. I would try dropping 2 Strands for another Island and maybe a Swamp or something.

-I highly doubt you need more than 1 Loam unless you fear it getting RFGed.

-Have you considered Mental Note over Serum Visions? It feeds graveyard better, works very well with Brainstorm, can still dredge off of it, and can pull a Loam back to your hand in response to a Crypt or something.

-Vedalken Shackles is a strong sideboard card. Do you really need the fourth Deed?

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I'll give Grave-Troll a try after I test some more with the current build, although I don't really think I need too much late game muscle in addition to Pyschatog.

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I disagree. You need alternative late game fat specifically because you're running Tog. Tog gets neutered by Needle, Crypt, REB, and even chumps like Piledriver. Grave-Troll is good specifically because it dodges this kind of hate completely, while feeding your engine in the early game.

I disagree with that. It mostly depends on how you are testing but when you two for 1 yourself with mox diamond and follow that up with a real strong 2 for 2 using deed on top of having to avoid blowing up 'geese, dogs, and togs you've got problems. I love the idea of the deck but I really think mox has to go because you can only generate card advantage with the incredibly slow lftl engine or try and deed more of your opponents guys then your guys. The tempo you are gaining from mox diamond is not worth the card you lose to it. on top of all that discarding a land you really want to have in your gy is also pretty situational (tropical island in gy only has so much combo with lftl.) Sure starting a game with Fetch Mox Lftl is real great but starting a game with turn 2 deed and having to pop it turn 3 and you end up with 2-3 cards left in hand is real tough. mox diamond is really only good if the lftl engine is on.

Have you tried out Brawn at all? I always liked it in my build, because if I didn't see Wonder or my opponent had a flyer I could always Trample over. Of course my build was more of a "combo" build (no LFTL or Deeds). I build it on a modified Gro engine. You could cycle to find Tog then use all the cantrips to fill the yard with repeated Dredges.

I don't really think the deck needs Brawn but if I find myself wishing I had trample, I'll try to fit it in. I'm really against adding more set-up cards though since the deck already has so much it's trying to do.

I think many people are misinterpreting the use of Deed and Mox. You're the one that casts Deed and pops it. If Deed isn't good in a particular situation, don't Deed. It still gives the deck maindeck answers to problematic things. Mox accelerates you're early gameplan... beyond that, it's not too much of an issue. I like being able to cast turn 2 Intuition. Loam ensures I'm making land drops every turn so if I do happen to Deed away a Mox, whatever. If I Deed away a Mox it's because it put me in a favorable position. Mox accelerates Deed anyway... Deed isn't going to save you against Goblins if you die before you pop it. Both cards are great in the deck... even if running both together causes both to lose a little bit of effectiveness in certain areas, the trade-off is worth it. Basically, I've been playtesting this deck quite a bit and it hasn't been a problem. I keep saying this but no one is listening. Does it look bad on paper? Yes. Has it been bad in testing? No. Have any of the naysayers tested it? If not, why are you saying it's bad? The only drawback I've had with Deed is popping my own men... which isn't so bad because if I know I'm going to Deed, I either won't play men or I'll hold onto a couple until I do. The only time I've this has posed a problem so far is when I don't have Genesis in the yard... but I still think Deed is strong in here.

Onto some actual content... I'm thinking of dropping Daze for Stifle. Stifle is much stronger against Goblins and Combo than Daze is (and is also stronger than Counterspell vs both of them too). It also keeps my early mana sources protected from Wasteland until I can establish the Loam engine. It's also pretty good vs Threshold too, since it answers Needle and Mage's CIP effects (being able to cast Deed is huge vs Threshold).

I'll test this... if it works out good, I'll stick with it:

MD
-3 Daze
+3 Stifle

SB
-3 Stifle
+3 ?

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Originally Posted by Hanni

It's also pretty good vs Threshold too, since it answers Needle and Mage's CIP effects (being able to cast Deed is huge vs Threshold).

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Needle and Mage's CIP abilities aren't triggered. They're static abilities that are applied when they come into play. From SCG:

Q: Pithing Needle's naming a card ability looks triggered. Can I Stifle it, as I might a Storm ability?

A: No, Pithing Needle does not have a triggered ability. Triggered abilities all use the words "when," "whenever," and "at". That ability is a static ability that is applied as the Needle comes into play. You cannot Stifle this ability.

Ahh I see. Thanks for the clarification Zilla. Well... I think I still wanna try the Stifles though, since they do play into the mana denial theme vs Threshold and this deck has Waste-lock potential. If they suck too much vs everything else besides Goblins and Combo, I'll probably switch back. However, I think Goblins and Combo are the more important matchups to consider.

Have you considered Engineered Explosives over Deed? And, with the right cantrip/counter base, you could easily support Quirion Dryad along side Pyscatog.

I'm considering putting a couple EE's in the board but I think I'd rather have Deed's main (deals with more things, mainly Goblins). EE's in the board would come in vs Thresh, since it can remove Needles on Deed (and Mongooses). I'm not sure though.

I'm also considering these changes:

-1 Lonely Sandbar
-1 Serum Visions
+1 Underground Sea
+1 Island

With Cephalid Coliseum, I'm finding myself not needing the full 3 Lonely Sandbar. Intuitions either grab 1 Sanbar, 1 Loam, 1 something else or 2 Sandbar and 1 Loam. Coliseum is awesome because once I no longer need to make landrops, I gain superior card quality (Loam up Coliseum and 2 other lands, draw 3 cards, discard the 2 other land cards and 1 other card). It's also great for discarding Genesis/Wonder when I don't have a discard outlet. I also don't want to draw into crappy lands early on, which is why I feel 2 Lonely Sandbar should be sufficient.

I also dropped a Visions so that I could increase my land count to 21. 1 Island 1 Underground Sea seemed like the right call.

I'll try this out and see how it works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I think I still wanna try the Stifles though

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I don't disagree with that at all. Stifle is very strong for all the reasons you mentioned, and is quite likely a better choice than Daze here, particularly because it's added protection against Crypt. Just wanted to clarify about the CIP thing is all.

Just for reference, this is the decklist (with sideboard) that I've been currently testing:

UGb Aggro DAT

Lands (20)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Lonely Sandbar

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Intuition
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives

I decided to go back up to 4 Visions because it not only digs for land early, it also digs for Intuition. I don't really want to run 4 Intuition cause I really only need 1 to set up my engine, but I do need to see 1 to set the engine up (if I don't see Loam itself). They also help fuel Threshold without the Loam engine, among the other nifty uses the cantrip has.

I haven't seen too much difference with Stifle instead of Daze so far but I haven't done alot of testing with them yet.

I tuned the board up a little. Krosan Grip can deal with Needle, EE is solid vs Thresh/Fish/Slivers and other randomness, Plague secures my Goblins matchup, Duress/Extirpate makes a solid disruption package vs Combo, and Extirpate can answer other Loam randomness or even hurt Threshold. I'm not sure if I want to fit in Needles yet and I'm not sure how good this board is yet. I'm also unsure of how I want to sideboard for the Big 3 yet... I know what to bring in but I don't know what to pull out.

Zilla is absolutely right. Grave Troll is nearly better than Tog late game! Even with 5 creatures in your yard having that recurring 5/5 Regenerate is nasty. I used to kill people with him alot. His dredge count is beastly and gives you lethal tog very quickly when you Brainstorm and dregge lftl, troll, and stinky. His high dredge count helps you recover from Tormods Crypt as well.

As for the rest of my experience with the deck. Your land count is low and really depends on the Diamonds now. You can definitly play Deed w/ them but now that your only playing one LftL you'll never see that nifty turn one loam much at all. Infact count on rarely ever seeing Loam at all unless you resolve your Intuition.

I dont think you need the Stifles. Anti combo would be better as Chalice of the Void. Take advantage of your draw engine that costs (U) but doesnt actually have a converted mana cost of one. The deck hates Extirpate, Swords to Plowshares, Needle and Tormods Crypt. Chalice is a great answer for all of those. Since your playing Mox you even have a lethal turn one CotV@1. I know Mongoose is nice but look into this tactic. Brainstorm can still be run with Chalice for one in the deck. It pitches to FoW and has huge dredging potential. You really need the chalice to protect you, your not running Cunning Wish for help. Good luck.

Right now, the deck runs 16 1cc spells MD. Pulling them for Chalice @ 1 switches the deck into a completely different version of DAT that no longer is aggro/control and is instead control. I don't really feel that the combo matchup is so bad... the deck can drop Mongooses and achieve Threshold pretty quickly, so the clock isn't slow, and the disruption package (especially post board) is pretty good too. I actually beat TES 2-1 with this deck so far with a timely FoW and proceeding to Waste-lock my opponent's lands with double Mongoose out. Swapping out for Chalice may make my combo matchup better, but I think it's fairly solid as is. The Threshold matchup doesn't really need much help either. If I'm fearing Crypt, I have Stifle. If Needle is the problem, I have Deed main with EE and Krosan Grip in the board. I'm also unsure of how Needle and StP wreck me... I am running alternate win conditions afterall.

Early on, I think the land count is more dependant on the cantrip than the Mox Diamonds since the deck essentially wants to see 3 land drops early on. Mox Diamond accelerates out the manabase but 2 lands + Mox doesn't actually count as 3 lands. Mox gives nice protection vs Wasteland/Port/Sinkhole/etc but I wouldn't go as far as saying that I'm relying on it for mana sources early on. The purpose of them is to either accelerate my early game or allow me to play 2 lands mid-game when my Loam engine is going. Otherwise, they are Mongrel fodder or they simply get dredged away. The cantrips are what make the 20 land count work early game... and they are also what digs for my Intuition. The cantrip has been an extremely strong addition to Tog, despite popular belief. Once I establish Loam, it really doesn't matter how many lands I'm running because I'm going to make a land drop every turn anyway.

I don't need to Loam turn 1. I don't need to dredge ASAP. I realize I need Intuition to see Loam moreoften than not... I'd rather see Intuition first. Intuition sets up the Loam engine... it grabs Loam and the other pieces I need to make the engine good (Lonely Sanbdar, Wasteland, etc). Playing Loam as a 1-of is a pretty smart idea since it reduces dead draws in the deck. You also need to weigh in the fact that I'm running 8 cantrip... I'm going to see my less than 4-of's more often than the # they are on paper (and I'm going to see them earlier than if I had more expensive draw because the cc of the cantrip is so low).

More often than not I win with Mongooses and Mongrels. I don't even gun for playing Psychatog when I play this deck. Basically, I just try to constantly switch from the beatdown to the control in order to constantly be in the better position. I try to get the Loam engine going... I Waste-lock if it's possible, I hit land drops and draw cards. I beat with Mongoose/Mongrel or I defend with Mongoose/Mongrel. I try to get Genesis and Wonder in my yard. If I haven't won with Mongoose/Mongrel beats by the time I can cast Psychatog, then I'll use Psychatog. If I know my opponent plays StP, I won't even attempt to try a Psychatog win. Psychatog is nice in the deck because it basically says that if the game goes long enough, I win regardless. Otherwise, I try to win before I get to that point. I try to slowplay the deck when it comes to building Psychatog... I don't dredge heavily just for the sake of dredging and I'm not gunning to get Psychatog into play ASAP and win ASAP. I like a quicker early game and a slower late-game. This may influence how the deck is currently built a great deal.

As far as Golgari Grave Troll goes... I can see the merits to it. I don't think it really fits into the deck very well the way the deck is designed right now but I won't dismiss it until I try it.