[Deck] Speed Belcher

So this is my build of belcher, it lacks control aspects of goblin welder and focuses more on speed, i picked it up because i felt like playing it over iggy when i wanted something new at a tourney, a went 2-0 goblins, 2-0 friggorid, 2-1 solidarity, and i lost the match that should been an autowin, 1-2 angel stompy, shit draws, i got second, it goes turn two most the time, almost consistently, and pulls a turn one on good occasion. heres the list

lands//
1xBayou
1xTaiga

Creatures//
4xElvish Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4xSimian Spirit Guide
4xBirds of Paradise

Instants//
4xSeething Song
4xDark Ritual
4xCabal Ritual
4xSpoils of the Vault
2xPlunge into Darkness -2 plunge

Sorcery//
4xLand Grant
4xRite of Flame
4xInfernal Tutor
+2 Empty the Warrens

Artifacts//
4xGoblin Charbelcher
4xLion's Eye Diamond
4xLotus Petal

Side Board//
3xOxidize -3
4xXantid Swarm
4xDuress
4xRed Elemental Blast
+3 Shattering Spree
So, the sideboard is meant to deal with control and needles, thats all this deck has had any problems with, it just plain outspeeds anything else...any thoughts?

Theres already a belcher thread with lists more developed than this. Your version isnt any different to warrent a new thread.

Congrats with your finish tho. Look into Chrome Mox since they make the spirit guides permanent sources of mana and Empty the Warrens to work around Force and Meddling Mage.

Teah, this is quite similar to the Spirit Guide Belcher lists floating around these days. I did some testing with it and came to the determination that Empty the Warrens was an extremely solid alternate win condition, particularly because it lets you play around Pithing Needle, which a lot of decks pack in the main, and totally shit you down game 1.

You're probably also going to want mroe outs to Chalice of the Void in the board. Oxidize is great, but it doesn't answer a Chalice set to 1. Shattering Spree may be the better choice.

I strongly recommend testing ETW as an alternate win. I ran a 3/3 split in my build and it worked out quite nicely. On the hands where I was one mana short of a Belcher + activation, I could often get an 8+ token Warrens resolved on first turn instead, which is gg against a lot of decks in the format.

Overall, the maindeck looks good... I'd suggest trying the following changes to see how you like them:

-1 Belcher, -2 Plunge
+3 Empty the Warrens

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

Theres already a belcher thread with lists more developed than this. Your version isnt any different to warrent a new thread.

Congrats with your finish tho. Look into Chrome Mox since they make the spirit guides permanent sources of mana and Empty the Warrens to work around Force and Meddling Mage.

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i did, ive tested the hell out of this deck, i personally dont like the chrome mox as much b/c it nets a minus two card loss for permanent mana, this is focused on outspeeding everything, if they dont have force, its gg, sb in xantid swarms duress and red elemental blast just for anti force, the net -1 loss of cards in hand hurts this deck too much, i think this deck alone can warrent a thread, playtest it, you'll see the fun

Welcome to The Source. Please make an effort to use proper capitalization and punctuation, as they are requirements on these boards. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

Teah, this is quite similar to the Spirit Guide Belcher lists floating around these days. I did some testing with it and came to the determination that Empty the Warrens was an extremely solid alternate win condition, particularly because it lets you play around Pithing Needle, which a lot of decks pack in the main, and totally shit you down game 1.

You're probably also going to want mroe outs to Chalice of the Void in the board. Oxidize is great, but it doesn't answer a Chalice set to 1. Shattering Spree may be the better choice.

I strongly recommend testing ETW as an alternate win. I ran a 3/3 split in my build and it worked out quite nicely. On the hands where I was one mana short of a Belcher + activation, I could often get an 8+ token Warrens resolved on first turn instead, which is gg against a lot of decks in the format.

Overall, the maindeck looks good... I'd suggest trying the following changes to see how you like them:

-1 Belcher, -2 Plunge
+3 Empty the Warrens

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ya i tryied that, its hot, ive consistently emptied the warrens for 10, thats nice, thanks to that, it does have more answers to needle, i like it

What about the Summoner's Pact from Future Sight?

0
Sorcery
Summoner's Pact is a green card.
Search your library for a green Creature Card and put it in your hand. At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2GG or you lose the game.

Couldn't this be used to find ESP or tinder Wall when needed?! I dunno, i'm not to familar with the deck

Its possibly usefull to turn G into RR with Tinder Wall. That gives you +2 to your storm and +1 to your mana, granted the storm part isnt important unless your casting ETW and then you need to pay the Future cost of the spell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by largebrandon

What about the Summoner's Pact from Future Sight?

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Seems like far too big a risk. Its greatest asset is that it builds storm count by fetching a Tinder Wall, and yet the only time Storm count matters is when you're building up a large ETW, which absolutely won't be winning you the game the following turn. You won't be able to pay Pact's 2GG cost and you will lose.

When building towards a Belcher win it might add a bit of consistency (wlthough it only effectively nets you one mana), but it makes opposing disruption like Stifle, Force of Will, and even Daze far more effective against you. When you "fizzle" with this deck, it's still possible to regain moment and win after a few more turns. With Pact, it's do or die. I suspect the "die" will happen more often than the "do".

Belcher pwned the Quebec metagame over the weekend at the Montreal GPT! :eek:
4 people played the deck and two of them met in the finals. Here is the list that all 4 of them ran:



CRET Belcher

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Elvish Spirit guide
4 Simian spirit guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Wild Cantor
3 Tinder Wall
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard:
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Cave-In
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Simplify

Remove Dark Ritual for Living Wish, Wild Cantor for 3 Goblin Welder, add the 4th Tinder Wall and change the Bayou to another Taiga and that's the list I've been playing for about a month.

I don't see the justification for Dark Ritual, the deck has more than enough mana and storm, the same case for Wild Cantor. Living Wish and Goblin Welder at least give the deck more outs against disruption and hate, and Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes is the third win condition no one is prepared for.

Cave-In, and that Pyroclasm card that has the same mechanic, are solid tech tho'.

I would have paid to see some one manage to Burning Wish->Inernal Tutor with LED on the stack for Goblin Charblecher, that's fucking balls right there. Mite as well add the Diminishing Returns to the SB at that rate, at least it's a justifiable come back from behind card.

so basically, you've designed for yourself a combo deck that scoops the second that you see either a discard spell, or even the slightest hint of a counterspell. This sounds terrific!!!

OMG why doesn't everyone play this so I can get first at my local tourney every week!!! that would be wonderful.......

the sideboard needs help, maybe if you took out all of the one shots then maybe you'll actually win a game against a control deck... but no promises... it also depends on if the deck has a competant pilot just like every other deck in the format.

I agree with you Freak Accident. I play B/U/W Fish and I have played against Belcher like 50 times and never lost once. It truely is the most fragile deck in the format. It is like the grass tha breaks against a hurricane. Or the infantille baby that I kick against the wall. It is that weak.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

so basically, you've designed for yourself a combo deck that scoops the second that you see either a discard spell, or even the slightest hint of a counterspell. This sounds terrific!!!

OMG why doesn't everyone play this so I can get first at my local tourney every week!!! that would be wonderful.......

the sideboard needs help, maybe if you took out all of the one shots then maybe you'll actually win a game against a control deck... but no promises... it also depends on if the deck has a competant pilot just like every other deck in the format.

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My sideboard runs 4x Xantid swarm, 4x Duress, 4x Red Elemental blast, if you have a good pilot they float an extra red, because control never counters the mana, only the belcher, then the red elemental blast. Thats also why warrens is there, as an alternate win. If the pilot is good, the deck will not auto lose to control. I played it in a tourney, with the list at the top of the post, and went 4-0 i beat solidarity, a food chain combo, THRESH, and then beat an iggy. The deck does not roll over to control and forces an opponent to aggressively mulligan for force, blue card. This gives card advantage and with any cards in from sideboard in hand it will do just fine.

I'm glad someone agrees with me, as a control player this is by far one of the easier of matchups, especially for blue based control... I boast at the fact that I have never lost to this deck... you should really consider runing protection mainboard, and if you are having success with the alternate wincon in ETW then you should quickly switch that into the main kill con... storm based combo decks are a lot less likely to die out to control like belcher is.

As for the win against thresh, that was a fluk.. trust me, unless he was asleep, there is no way that you could have won that MU.. In my build I run 3 main deck needles, 4 meddling mages, and 11 countermagic cards; all of which are adequate enough to defeat your precious belcher. And in my SB I run krosan grip, which you have no answers to, so yes you do loose without a doubt to threshold; don't boast about wins that you should not have gotten.
Now if you were playing with solidarity then that would be a different story.

And you cannot boast about winning against other combo decks, that simply means that you had better hands... and luck does not count for anything when it comes to skill or deck quality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

so basically, you've designed for yourself a combo deck that scoops the second that you see either a discard spell, or even the slightest hint of a counterspell. This sounds terrific!!!

OMG why doesn't everyone play this so I can get first at my local tourney every week!!! that would be wonderful.......

the sideboard needs help, maybe if you took out all of the one shots then maybe you'll actually win a game against a control deck... but no promises... it also depends on if the deck has a competant pilot just like every other deck in the format.

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My sideboard runs 4x Xantid swarm, 4x Duress, 4x Red Elemental blast, if you have a good pilot they float an extra red, because control never counters the mana, only the belcher, then the red elemental blast. Thats also why warrens is there, as an alternate win. If the pilot is good, the deck will not auto lose to control. I played it in a tourney, with the list at the top of the post, and went 4-0 i beat solidarity, a food chain combo, THRESH, and then beat an iggy. The deck does not roll over to control and forces an opponent to aggressively mulligan for force, blue card. This gives card advantage and with any cards in from sideboard in hand it will do just fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

I'm glad someone agrees with me, as a control player this is by far one of the easier of matchups, especially for blue based control... I boast at the fact that I have never lost to this deck... you should really consider runing protection mainboard, and if you are having success with the alternate wincon in ETW then you should quickly switch that into the main kill con... storm based combo decks are a lot less likely to die out to control like belcher is.

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The ETW is meant to be an alternate win, not a main one, the point is that game one your opponent will not know what you are playing if word of mouth has not spread and will not mulligan agressively for FOW. The ETW is there for control but is too slow and reliant on two turns later to win against other matchups. The point is belcher outspeeds most and uses alt kill as win vs control g1 and g2, g3, it uses sideboard plus win of choice.

Belcher on average gets a first turn win about 15% of the time, I tested it myself (as a control player I like to know exactly what I am up against in the current meta), belcher is a horrible combo deck compared to those that have already prooven themselves in the midst of battle; TES, Iggy, and Solidarity are good exaples of superior combo decks, you may be able to beat them; but they do not die out in the current meta like belcher does. This deck relies on the first two turns to win in an explosive and surprising fashion, without that surprise factor (like the player knows what is coming) the deck looses.

I have played many, many games against belcher & every other combo deck for that matter; guess which one give the least resistance? That's right, belcher. Unless you are willing to realize that this deck needs to change in order to win outside of flukes and surprise, you will eventually find yourself with players that have 'caught on', and your 4-0 record will flip and it will look like this 0-4.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

Belcher on average gets a first turn win about 15% of the time, I tested it myself (as a control player I like to know exactly what I am up against in the current meta), belcher is a horrible combo deck compared to those that have already prooven themselves in the midst of battle; TES, Iggy, and Solidarity are good exaples of superior combo decks, you may be able to beat them; but they do not die out in the current meta like belcher does. This deck relies on the first two turns to win in an explosive and surprising fashion, without that surprise factor (like the player knows what is coming) the deck looses.

I have played many, many games against belcher & every other combo deck for that matter; guess which one give the least resistance? That's right, belcher. Unless you are willing to realize that this deck needs to change in order to win outside of flukes and surprise, you will eventually find yourself with players that have 'caught on', and your 4-0 record will flip and it will look like this 0-4.

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Im not new to the game, before i started playing belcher i was playing iggy. The sideboard is all the deck needs to play control, and i dont think you tested the belcher posted at the top because i know, from experience of owning and playing it, im sure more times then you, that it combos 1st turn way more then 15%. I like your statistic, you know 80% of statistical facts are made up on the spot.

JohnnyCage, are you referring to outright kills or to combo-outs that either win or leave you with a good board position (more than 10 goblins or Belcher on the table with mana to use it next turn, that kind of thing)?

Because if it's the former, I haven't even been able to get the 15% he cited without taking disproportionate risks. If you include the latter, however, that percentage jumps from just over 10 to around 50 from my experience.

Quote:

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so basically, you've designed for yourself a combo deck that scoops the second that you see either a discard spell, or even the slightest hint of a counterspell. This sounds terrific!!!

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If you were talking about the single kill condition Belcher list, then I agree with your comment.

If you are talking about Cret Belcher you are sadly mistaken. Test the deck (this build), learn to play it well, then rant all you want. Or better, play your control deck against a competent player piloting Cret Belcher. It is definitly not an autowin for control (and obviously not an autowin for Belcher either). The guy who finished first, with Belcher, at GPT Montreal won match-ups against 2 x Deadguy (so discard is not an autolose), 1 x UGr-Thresh, 1x UW Fish (packing 4 Fow, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 3 Needles MD). Please don't come up with the ever original "his opponents were asleep/noobs", "he got lucky all day long", etc and try to understand why/how the deck works. Stating that you tested without giving any conclusions or explanations amounts to void. Your tests may also be biased by the fact that you (or your testing partner) may not be the best Belcher player(s) (for example, not knowing how to appropriatly mulligan will greatly affect the outcome of a game). I don't mean to be arrogant by saying this, it's just that I arrived at conclusions similar to yours by testing against Belcher and realized after playing against a competent Belcher player that my previous testing results (i.e. Belcher Scoops to control) were not that conclusive.

If Freakaccident read the latest article by Kevin Binswanger, I think he would realize that counterspells don't neccessarily beat Belcher. Quote on quote, Kevin pointed out that if they don't have an answer for the win condition then you outright win. He also pointed out that alot of the times you won't have an answer to Belcher by the first or second turn so you're able to win regardless. I think that Kevin made an excellent point and that's something that alot of people overlook when considering overall Magic strategies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cavius The Great

If Freakaccident read the latest article by Kevin Binswanger, I think he would realize that counterspells don't neccessarily beat Belcher. Quote on quote, Kevin pointed out that if they don't have an answer for the win condition then you outright win. He also pointed out that alot of the times you won't have an answer to Belcher by the first or second turn so you're able to win regardless. I think that Kevin made an excellent point and that's something that alot of people overlook when considering overall Magic strategies.

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So if you don't have a swords than a first turn Akroma via reanimation spell, it will kill you... no WAY?!

I'm not saying that it cannot kill... I know without a doubt that it could throw 40 at my dome, that's just a duh statement.
But the fact is, if your playing combo & your opponent is playing a control deck... he/she will probably mulligan if they do not have an answer for the said combo.... I know if i'm playing against iggy and my hand looks like (needle, swords, swords, land, land, creature, creature) then I probably will not keep that hand, when in some MUs I might consider it.
Any combo deck can 'go off' without disruption, that's what they were designed to do.


@ johnny boy over there: the 15% was given to me through that fact that my opponent (jerry bonner, who is actually a great belcher player) got an average of a first turn win 1 out of every 5-6 games; and that is fact my friend... this could have been a bad night for the belcher player, but there is no way that you could possibly boast at much better consistancy in your list, seeing as it is very similar to jerry's.

I'm not going to argue with you any more, cuz I know that if we were to play in RL I would win outright JB, so I guess I'll see you at the next D4D, I'll be your opponent with the control deck :wink: .

Tell you what. The more I think about this deck the more I like it. If you are facing it with FoW, do you counter the acceleration? You have to if the Belcher player plans to win with ETW. But in the past, it was the Charbelcher itself that was the obvious target for the counter. So DO YOU? It looks like a gamble to me. That alone makes this deck far better than it used to be all by itself. It gets around Mage. It gets around Needle, like Zilla said. This is a smart move, and I would say that it makes the deck yet another viable option that used to not be thanks to Empty the Warrens. I see all the storm combo that does not end in "olidarity" looking more and more like the same thing these days.

Storm is so damned brokeneedd...and getting worse.

It also doesn't lose to Duress, with 4 Living Wish, the deck has 15 win conditions, or 2 per hand, so the opponent has to discard an accelerant a lot of the time.

I wouldn't generalise that control decks are favoured against Belcher if it includes an alternate kill. The deck is so full of acceleration that they have an excellent chance of putting down an overwhelming number of goblins turn 1. Countering acceleration helps them about as often as it hinders them.

Mulliganing into a Force isn't a problem. Mulliganing into mass removal that is fast enough (such as Pyroclasm or Engineered Explosives) is doable with some decks. Mulliganing until you get both - hardly.

It becomes better on the play if you have access to permanent-based hate... but Belcher is not quite as fragile as some people claim.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

If you are facing it with FoW, do you counter the acceleration?

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Exactly the kind of dilemma I had in mind. Sure, you can mulligan to FoW, but if your opponent goes with the ETW plan, you might be screwed. Also, while you are using resources to counter their ETW plan or to get rid of tokens, they might get enough acceleration/resources to get the Belcher plan working.

Game 1, Needle does not totally shut down the Belcher plan (Burning Wish for Spree). FoW, etc. doesn't shut down the ETW or the Belcher plan (if they know you play control, they won't walk into counterspells unprepared). I've seen players win through CotV@0,1 by either Wishing for Spree or just accumulating a lethal ETW with countered 1cc acceleration (ESG and SSG rock in that particular scenario).

@thefreakaccident: I don't want to start a flame war, but bragging and boasting doesn't help anyone understanding anything. Why don't you explain how you can wreck their plans with control (I'm assuming it's blue based) ? I find that its hard to sit and wait with Fow, etc. in hand because they put a lot of pressure early game and sometimes you run out of steam before they do. But hey, these are just my limited experiences against Belcher. Cards like Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, heck even Glowrider seem to be the real wrecking balls for their plans (if you can get them on the board early enough and keep them there).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

So if you don't have a swords than a first turn Akroma via reanimation spell, it will kill you... no WAY?!

I'm not saying that it cannot kill... I know without a doubt that it could throw 40 at my dome, that's just a duh statement.
But the fact is, if your playing combo & your opponent is playing a control deck... he/she will probably mulligan if they do not have an answer for the said combo.... I know if i'm playing against iggy and my hand looks like (needle, swords, swords, land, land, creature, creature) then I probably will not keep that hand, when in some MUs I might consider it.
Any combo deck can 'go off' without disruption, that's what they were designed to do.


@ johnny boy over there: the 15% was given to me through that fact that my opponent (jerry bonner, who is actually a great belcher player) got an average of a first turn win 1 out of every 5-6 games; and that is fact my friend... this could have been a bad night for the belcher player, but there is no way that you could possibly boast at much better consistancy in your list, seeing as it is very similar to jerry's.

I'm not going to argue with you any more, cuz I know that if we were to play in RL I would win outright JB, so I guess I'll see you at the next D4D, I'll be your opponent with the control deck :wink: .

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You were quoted as saying that Belcher can't win against decks that pack disruption and counters. Now you're flip flopping on the agenda and contradicting yourself. If you had any self dignity whatsoever, you would stop making sarcastic remarks and add a little intelligence to the conversation.

what I was reported saying was that if the disruption is seen then it becomes an issue for the combo deck at hand ('speed belcher')... what you were saying is that you win if there is no disruption in the opening hand... any deck can win if there is nothing prohibiting in its way, hell I could just play lands and kill you if it always went that way.

You are correct that I said that belcher looses to disruption, but I never said that it was incapable of winning if that factor is non-existant (talking about if the disruption is not there). All that I am trying to get through is that you need to pack some actual protection if this is ever going to be seriously competative.

So just burn the deck entirely...













Make TES.......












And jack off to it just like all the other guys in the E.P.I.C. syndicate.

True Dat True Dat you are 100% jackass. This is the 20% that you didn't mention.

I did some testing. This is what I used.

Lands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

Green
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant

Red
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Seething Song
2 Empty the Warrens

Black
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual

Artifacts
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

Side Board//
2 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
...other stuff I didn't use

Goldfishing went as follows in 42 games, drop the highest and lowest (so out of 40).

avg: 2.975
%1: 10.0
%2: 22.5
%3: 42.5
%4: 12.5
%5: 10.0
%6: 02.5

These numbers are not the turn you go off, they are kill turns assuming attacking with little 1/1's off of Warrens where applicable and includes opponent blocks and spot removal estimations.

Whatever. The real testing came against Gobs and Thresh.

Gobs - 5-0 matches including sbing. I won all 10 games. He had Needles, but he did not have Chalice.

UGR Thresh - 2-8 - matches including sb. He had Stifle which hurt a lot.

My initial estimates were not really accurate. FoW is still very hard to overcome at times. BUT, the Pithing Needle brought in by Gobs was no big deal and this deck does not kill itself.
Xantids should have been main. The deck can USUALLY go off on turn 1. That's way more than 50%. FoW makes that kinda moot, though.

Questions:

1. Beyond Xantids and Duress what else can we include to improve this?
2. This appears to be flat-out better than the old Belcher builds. Is there anything I am forgetting?

Xantid Swarm is hands done the best disruption, unless the deck can manage to include enough black cards to support Unmask and still be able to go off on the same turn.

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Originally Posted by Iranon

JohnnyCage, are you referring to outright kills or to combo-outs that either win or leave you with a good board position (more than 10 goblins or Belcher on the table with mana to use it next turn, that kind of thing)?

Because if it's the former, I haven't even been able to get the 15% he cited without taking disproportionate risks. If you include the latter, however, that percentage jumps from just over 10 to around 50 from my experience.

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I was speaking of the latter.

Do Not Ignore Me You Fat Whore!!!!! It's Kashmire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are an Fing retard, go back to mortal kombat and suck raiden's lightning fast wang.

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Originally Posted by The Big Cheese

Do Not Ignore Me You Fat Whore!!!!! It's Kashmire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are an Fing retard, go back to mortal kombat and suck raiden's lightning fast wang.

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dude, are you, like, three? seriously, just because he doesnt respond to a childish insult doesnt mean you have to start flaming all over the place. Act your age. Please?

Man this thread has gone down the drain; too bad... guess i'll find another way to waste my time.
EDIT: I can really see no point for this thread to still exist, considering that the other Belcher thread involves discussion, actual argumentation and new ideas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aTn

Man this thread has gone down the drain; too bad... guess i'll find another way to waste my time.
EDIT: I can really see no point for this thread to still exist, considering that the other Belcher thread involves discussion, actual argumentation and new ideas.

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Yea, it has, its thanks to the big cheese for the downhill spiral. If you have a good point by all means share it, perhaps the thread can get back up to competent speech.

Hey guys, sorry about bringing down the thread like that it was uneeded and I apologize.

Finn, I am curious to the decision of not running Cabal Ritual. WHat do you think?

Devastater, I am taking this conversation to the Cheeseless thread in "open"....

Cheese is banned. - Zilla