[OLD] UGb Threshold

Introduction:

UGb Threshold is a Threshold deck that utilizes Black cards, such as Thoughtseize and/or Dark Confidant as well amazing Sideboard options, such as Engineered Plague for the Goblin and Faerie match-up, Yixlid Jailer for the Ichorid match, and Haunting Echoes for the control match up.

The point of running Black in Threshold is to abuse the powerful Thoughtseize in order to take out threats and answers so that you can force down Counterbalance and Tarmogoyfs aggressively with the new found information off Thoughtseize which you capitalize on.

Dark Confidants play a big role in UGb Thresh as well, being a pseudo Ophidian that doesnt need to attack and draws cards. Although Dark Confidant isn't the absolute reason to play Black, many still play Dark Confidant alongside with Thoughtseize because of the immense power level of those two cards.

Why Should I Play Black in Threshold?:

Because Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant are the shit. Yixlid Jailer is bossome as well.


Why Play Black over Red or White?:

Because Thoughtseize and Ghastly Demise/Smother is way better than Lightning Bolts and Blood Moons, and Swords to Plowshares and Oblivion Rings. Thoughtseize is proactive.

Blood Moon is becoming weaker because more and more decks are running more basics and more fetchlands. Lightning Bolt is a terrible removal card. Pyroclasm is good, but that's about it. Red Elemental Blasts are baller.

White may have Swords to Plowshares, Mystic Enforcer, Gaddock Teeg, and Oblivion Rings... but those cards are weak compared to Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize literally is, the shit.

But from what we have compiled off the list of cards, the cards from Red and White are good, but don't justify being ran over Black. Of course, that brings to our 2nd option; 5 Color Threshold. We have all the awesome of White, all the awesome of Red, the bossome monsters of Green, the power level of Black, and the skeleton of Blue, you have the most flexible list of Threshold to date.


// Lands 18
4 City of Brass
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island


// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer


// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top


// Sideboard 15
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
4 Yixlid Jailer


Cantrips in this deck should allow you to fix your 5 color mana base, while other cards such as Thoughtseize, Daze, FoW, and Counterbalance disrupt the opponent. You create a soft lock then you proceed to drop a threat or two and win under the Counterbalance soft lock. This should be your general plan. Another plan is to again, play like a normal Threshold deck or cast a Thoughtseize and proceed to overextend because of the new found information of your opponent having a weak hand.

The playset of Pyroclasms in the sideboard is an important part of the Sideboard for 5 Color Threshold. They're good against Vial Goblins, Ichorid, and other random decks. I consider Pyroclasms and Krosan Grips to be the MVP of the Sideboard and should never be taken out.

Other options for the Sideboard are extra REBs and BEBs, EEs, Gaddock Teeg, Armageddon, Jotun Grunt, Control Magic, and other random assortment of cards thanks to the 5 color mana base.

Have you tried Gloomdrifter in place of Engineered Plague? It does have the disadvantages of costing one more and not being permanent, but it also has the advantage of being a Wrath-effect (versus Goblins) on a flying stick.

The other possibility would be to use it in conjunction with Engineered Plague, over a cantrip like Predict (or something).

I know that once, quite some time ago, I did a fair bit of testing with Gloomdrifter over/on top of Plague, but I can't remember what my results were at the time, unfortunately.

Edit: As far as Dark Confidant is concerned, I think that you may well be better off running some other creature in that slot, since the deck already has a very potent draw engine left over from Thresh. I realize that's a controversial statement, but that's what it looks like. I realize full well that Confidant is most of the reason to be playing the Black splash, but will you have enough mana to be casting everything that your cantrips are drawing on top of Confidant? How often do you just cantrip/Confidant into cantrips? The other question that probably needs to be answered is whether or not a cantrip engine is more effective than a dredge engine and/or Zombie Infestation.

It's the best build of Threshold, even if it is the least used. Engineered Plague, Duress, Dark Confidant and to an extent Psychatog improve every match up you have; Engineered Plague is the only SB/MD answer that actually answers Goblins, and with all of the cantrips you can easily cast two of them, Duress is better than Meddling Mage against combo, Dark Confidant is GG if it resolves and stays on the board against any other aggro-control or control deck, and Psychatog is the best finisher of all three colors.

I could never understand why this deck never took off.

Edit: Portent and Predict suck over Mental Note, way too many cantrips.

I love UBG Thresh. I think it needs a solid beater. I like tombstalker, but it really is bad to lose thresh to play him and then get him StP. Plus losing 8 life off confidant sucks some major ass.

I think the deck has a little too much draw. I mean it is good, but I think a tad more business spells would be good. I would cut 2 predicts for another counterspell and make some room for more creatures.

Love the deck, but I would like to see a nice finisher. Don't know what, but yeah.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Edit: Portent and Predict suck over Mental Note, way too many cantrips.

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I really dont want to resurrect the debate since it went somewhere, but the fact this very likely, isnt at all true. Predict and Portent are very good, and has been giving a lot of people high placings. The numbers thus far are Jason Portizio, Mad Zur, Happy Gilmore (if he participates in more tournaments), Overlord95, and ObFreely. I as well had great success with Portent and Predict, and a huge advocate of it.

I really want to hear why you think running lot's of cantrips is bad? I will give you my view on running lot's of cantrips in general though.

I see running cantrips as a robust way of going through your deck. The more cantrips you run, the more cards you see. This nessesarily isnt bad, but a robust way of getting what you need, replacing threats, and keeping the chain going until your opponent is in exhaust. I never saw it as a bad thing since against every match up you have, it's nice to play the same way consistently against them, but find different cards and target different weaknesses. Only time where you would side out cantrips is against Goblins, since your looking for the same cards against Goblins, may as well have BEB or Stifle in the opening hand instead. This is however, irrevelent if you run Pyroclasm sinc eoyu want to cycle through your deck finding as many Pyroclasms as possible. You do the same with this deck to find Plague.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I love UBG Thresh. I think it needs a solid beater. I like tombstalker, but it really is bad to lose thresh to play him and then get him StP. Plus losing 8 life off confidant sucks some major ass.

I think the deck has a little too much draw. I mean it is good, but I think a tad more business spells would be good. I would cut 2 predicts for another counterspell and make some room for more creatures.

Love the deck, but I would like to see a nice finisher. Don't know what, but yeah.

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I would much rather replace Confidant to tell the truth. In a format like Legacy, I would much rather sacrifice card advantage for board supperiority.

Playing Tombstalker doesnt nesessarily mean getting rid of 6 cards to play him. It seems more of a 2-4 cards to play him usually. In a deck that has so many cards in the grave and plays card constantly through "Velocity", it shouldnt matter unless your going below 7 cards.

As for the deck, I'd just cut Confidants for Tombstalker and the 3rd Countespell.

I really want to test Tombstalker actually. I think it's awesome that it's being printed.

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Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen

Edit: As far as Dark Confidant is concerned, I think that you may well be better off running some other creature in that slot, since the deck already has a very potent draw engine left over from Thresh. I realize that's a controversial statement, but that's what it looks like. I realize full well that Confidant is most of the reason to be playing the Black splash, but will you have enough mana to be casting everything that your cantrips are drawing on top of Confidant? How often do you just cantrip/Confidant into cantrips? The other question that probably needs to be answered is whether or not a cantrip engine is more effective than a dredge engine and/or Zombie Infestation.

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Because cantrips only give you card quality...Dark Confidant gives you actual card advantage...both are very important but combined togeather can be even more explosive...In the late game you want confidant because he will draw you the cards you need...If I were to cut anything Id cut cantrips before Confidant

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Originally Posted by lukatron2

Because cantrips only give you card quality...Dark Confidant gives you actual card advantage...both are very important but combined togeather can be even more explosive...In the late game you want confidant because he will draw you the cards you need...If I were to cut anything Id cut cantrips before Confidant

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It's kinda weird... I do the opposite. I'd rather cut Confidant before cantrips.

Tombstalker looks really strong and is an incentive not to play Confidant. Which is an incentive to play Night's Whisper.

Playing a cantrip base consisting of four each of Brainstorm, Serum Visions and Night's Whisper seems really powerful. Whisper doesn't clog deck space with additional setup like Portent, and it gives you unconditional card advantage.

Also, Stalker interacts well with Deed, if we decide to play it.

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Originally Posted by Nydaeli

Tombstalker looks really strong and is an incentive not to play Confidant. Which is an incentive to play Night's Whisper.

Playing a cantrip base consisting of four each of Brainstorm, Serum Visions and Night's Whisper seems really powerful. Whisper doesn't clog deck space with additional setup like Portent, and it gives you unconditional card advantage.

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Actually, Portent is very strong in the early stages of the game. Cutting it means your Dazes and FoWs become weaker, and your control in general just go back to being marginal cards. Portents at least let you maximize those marginal cards. It also replaces your threats and finds control to keep the game dragging until it's in your favor.

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Also, Stalker interacts well with Deed, if we decide to play it.

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The 3rd best deck at abusing Pernicious Deed in the format besides Truffle Shuffle and BHWW Landstill?

I've detonated Deed, and played a Goose and bear right away before. Talk about capitalizing on devastating control elements.

Cantrips disclude business and decrease tempo, Brainstorm and Serum Visions are more than enough cantrips, and Mental Note builds Threshold faster than Portent or Predict.

Cutting Dark Confidant is a terrible idea, it's what wins games against aggro-contol and control.

Tombstalker is interesting, but it doesn't belong here; it's not as good as Tog at ending the game and it's anti-Threshold, but perhaps in some form of Gro or Intuition-Loam it could be worth while? Hell, it's not terrible in U/b/w etc. if it drops Jotun Grunt.

I played this varient for a while, and loved it. It has a great match up against the other two splices... as for an effective beater, I was unable to find one that gave synergy with confidant and not be an issue to play. I tried efreet (lost too much life), I tried negator (1 burn spell and I died), and I tried other things as well; nothing worked for me... I eventually made a 4 color thresh, which did very well in utilizing all gooding from all of the given colors. Black ensures card quality and possiblt discard, as well as giving us the valuable side board slots that we love. Blue gives us the counter/ utility spells that we need, as well as the cantrips that make this deck good in the first place. Green gives us our kill conditions, which happen to be some of the most cost effective creatures around). White gives us meddling mage as well, the best pin point removal that we could possibly ask for, and the best creature we could use (Enforcer). BGU is very affective, as well as its' white counterpart... I came to the 4c build my self so as to utilize all the strengths of these two decks, it wasn't much of a stretch due to the fact that their cores were the same.

As for a finisher that is on color for the BgU build, there is none that don't kill you or at least are playable... I would suggest going down to 14 cantrips to add some much neede removal, once you get a confidant online the cantrips are trivial compared to his sheer card advantage anyways.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Cantrips disclude business and decrease tempo, Brainstorm and Serum Visions are more than enough cantrips, and Mental Note builds Threshold faster than Portent or Predict.

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It's business. It finds you business spells and threats. Anything besides a simple draw spell able find you those things at a low cost that synergizes with your game plan?

For example;

Is Bardo's

4 Daze
4 FoW
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage

Any different from

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 FoW
3 Needle

Basically, the base with the Portents and Predicts swapped the Meddling Mages for Portent. Why? Because Portent is a fixed variable unlike Meddling Mage. Meddling Mage is at best a Duress/Mesmeric Fiend, but with a weak body of 2/2. Portent at least is everything - it finds you control, threats, and ensures that you dont have to mulligan your hand so often with 1-land hands. The fact that a Portent can find a an untargetable 3/3, a beefy 4/4, or an evasive 6/6 is what make it truely great, and it allows you to get rid of dead cards. With Meddling Mage, you get a little bit of both as it serves as a 2/2 that prevents someone from playing something facing a board of Fanatics, Matrons, etc, etc. Against RGSA, it doesnt matter - if you play a Mage on SotF or FtK, cards like Trolls, Baloths, and Werebears trump it.

The point of running Portent and Predict isnt about getting Threshold. It's about card quality. In a deck that has characteristics of a 1-for-1 trade, it's all about making your Midgame and Late game effective. You can beat decks like Truffle Shuffle, simply because you outdraw them in terms of card quality.

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Cutting Dark Confidant is a terrible idea, it's what wins games against aggro-contol and control.

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Tombstalker fights Aggro Control and Control just as well. What does Confidant do against RGSA? What does Confidant do against Truffle Shuffle, Rifter, Confinement Slide, or even Wombat?

Fighting the Threshold mirror is all about the attrition war. Tombstalker turns a game of attrition wars, into a game of board dominance. The same applies to Tormod's Crypt, Loaming Shaman, Nantuko Monastery, Mystic Enforcer, Fledgling Dragon, and potentially Control Magic (You steal their big flier, you control the board now, unlike FtK which is just another beat stick).

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Tombstalker is interesting, but it doesn't belong here; it's not as good as Tog at ending the game and it's anti-Threshold, but perhaps in some form of Gro or Intuition-Loam it could be worth while? Hell, it's not terrible in U/b/w etc. if it drops Jotun Grunt.

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Tombstalker IMO, at most takes 3 cards from your Graveyard. I wouldnt expect to play him until midgame. If you need to play him on turn 3, make sure he wins you the game. I see Tombstalker very good against a deck like RGSA when they're in their premature development.

Anyways, with the discussion on Tog. Tog is a one-trick pony. You have to invest cards in it, and it's a one-time investment. It doesnt advance your game plan if it keeps getting blocked every turn. Tombstalker at least ends the game in 4 swings while your guys are doing a ground stall.

I haven't actually tested or played with this version of the deck, but I did at one time make it U/G/b/w because I wanted Confidant and Plague in the board with the removal of StP and the beater of Enforcer. Worked out pretty well. But I believe stretching your manabase that far is only asking for disaster perhaps. Black seems a good choice to add, but without a big evasive beater llike the other colors, all your creatures with spend their time in chump town until your opponent throws down their own fatty and wins. Tombstalker looks interesting though.

it is important to note that Tombstalker is much much better with the new Green creature everyone is talking about:

Tarmogoyf http://mtgsalvation.com/images/image.png

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gifCreature - Lhurgoyf(TS) http://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/fs-R.gifTarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and it's toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal)
#153/180
*/1+*



Unlike Werebear you can remove all but 3 cards in your GY and still have him be a 3/4 or better. Tombstalker on the other hand has bad synergy with Ghastly Demise, something worth mentioning. If you are switching to Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker instead of Confidant/Werebear you could easily switch to Vedetta instead without loosing too much umph. And I would still play Predict over Night's Whisper, because it is blue and the 2nd card you put in the GY is very important.

This is a direct port from the Red Version I am considering for testing in the GP (if they make Futuresight Legal)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Portent
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Vendetta
3 Pithing Needle
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 FoW

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand


SB:
4 Engineered Plague
2 BEB
2 Naturalize
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Tombstalker
3 Duress

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

it is important to note that Tombstalker is much much better with the new Green creature everyone is talking about:

Tarmogoyf http://mtgsalvation.com/images/image.png

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gifCreature - Lhurgoyf(TS) http://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/fs-R.gifTarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and it's toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal)
#153/180
*/1+*



Unlike Werebear you can remove all but 3 cards in your GY and still have him be a 3/4 or better. Tombstalker on the other hand has bad synergy with Ghastly Demise, something worth mentioning. If you are switching to Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker instead of Confidant/Werebear you could easily switch to Vedetta instead without loosing too much umph. And I would still play Predict over Night's Whisper, because it is blue and the 2nd card you put in the GY is very important.

This is a direct port from the Red Version I am considering for testing in the GP (if they make Futuresight Legal)

[Decklist]

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Love the decklist, but i'd probably play Ghastly Demise over Vendetta. Tombstalker will take at most 3 cards away from you unless you want to play him early. I dont see much wrong with him doing so, so Ghastly Demise is still able to take down Exalted Angels and such.

Way to forget about Counterbalance in the Sideboard. I assume you wrote this up as you got up?

My Maindeck wouldnt change. The Sideboard would probably be

1 Tombstalker
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Engineered Plague
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Tormod's Crypt/ 2 Crypt, 4th Deed

Tarmogoyf is awesome. I expect him in to probably be one of the most awesome cards ever printed thus far for this deck next to Counterbalance.

There is a TON of incorrect information in this thread. I don't really have time to go through and correct it all right now, but I'll address what I can.

First of all, Black absolutely does not improve the quality of your removal. It doesn't. Ghastly Demise is strictly inferior to StP in every way, and this comes from someone who has used both at many, many times. The fact that it cannot answer a Negator or even an opposing Confidant is extremely relevant, and can lose you matches. To say that this is made up for by running Diabolic Edict is a fallacy, and at most it gives you more removal spells at the cost of cantrips or threats. It's blatantly obvious that Red has the most powerful removal package, because it doesn't run a single spell that is dead in the combo matchup. Burn can always fly at your oponent's noggin. While it doesn't have spot removal as potent as StP or Demise, it more than makes up for it in reach.

Engineered Plague is a relevant point of contention, but remember that White has Tivadar's Crusade (or Hail Storm) and Red has PYROCLASM. Both are viable solutions to the Goblin Problem, and as Goblins is basically designed to deal with Plague now, I wouldn't count it as the strongest possible solution to the deck anymore.

Haunting Echoes is AWFUL in Thresh. Notice that Thresh runs zero cards that cannot be played for 4 mana or less (3 with Werebear). This is for a reason. The control matchups you refer to will probably be either Loam decks, Landstill, or Wombat. Vs. the first two, you need to have 5 mana up on your Main Phase, which is an issue in itself when both decks rape your manabase, and then resolve Echoes through disruption (in the case of Landstill). Vs. every one of those decks, Armageddon is a Turn faster, supports your game plan better, affects the present board state, and disrupts your opponent more effectively.

Deed + Nimble Mongoose = Not a combo.

As Dark Confidant is the most important part of the black splash (see the Herbig project - discussed here), all the huge guys and flashy win conditions drive up the potential for Bob to screw you. Even with just Force in the deck I get nervous. Some of you are even advocating cutting cantrips with Bob in the deck! The whole point of fitting him into the thresh shell was to utilize the natural knowledge of your top library card to make Bob free draw. Cutting Portent, Visions, or Brainstorm when they all make Bob better is a mistake. You don't really need Predict or Mental note as much anymore, but both are potent with or without Confidant in play.

Duress absolutely is NOT better than Meddling Mage vs. Combo. I'm not going to get into the debate on whether or not he's needed in UGw thresh with you, because that will go on forever, but let's say you have to choose one or the other. Duress is a temporary solution that takes the most pertinent threat out of their hand. This works into your game plan how? What are you planning to do in order to capitalize on that disruption? Play a cantrip and a Mongoose? Meddling Mage is a threat that they must answer to win the game, or slow down to play around. Either way, he buys you at least some time, where Duress may or may not. Note that this applies more to Non-TES combo decks, but is true there, as well, if you play tightly.

Portent vs. Mage - Mage disrupts your opponent starting turn 2. Portent draws you another counterspell that doesn't help vs. Storm. Note that I don't disagree that Portent is good, but I wouldn't choose it over Meddling Mage.

I may have more later, and feel free to disagree.

Here is the problem that I see with your meddling mage argument (I totally agree with 95% of everything else said)... Meddling Mage only answers one threat that they may or may not tutor for. Duress answers the tutor prematurely. This is important because sometimes we do actually fail to deal with a turn 1 xantid swarm (something you should expect from combo game 2). If we fail to deal with swarm (even if just once), we are stuck in a situation where we can't counter the onslaught of spells. More often than not, storm / belcher decks have multiple ways to win. This means that 1x meddling mage on the board will not stop them from running out their other win condition. It takes 2 to answer most of those decks. This basically means that duress is going to be better in the early game by removing a valuable tutor / mana spell to slow them down, especially since it can land turn 1. Meddling Mage serves better as a FOW pitch in some occasions unfortunately.

Is meddling mage better than duress vs the non-storm combo? Thats a very solid question with not absolute answer. In some matches it is, in some it isn't. Meddling mage is probably stronger against aluren than duress. Against Salvagers it definitely can be, but is weakened by the new prevalence of pernicious deed in some gamekeeper builds.

In the solidary match-up, meddling mage is becoming increasingly hated on via a red splash for sudden shock. Against the red splash versions, I think a single duress could be better than a single meddling mage. 2 meddling mages is better than 2 duresses, though.

Most of that is wrong. Why are you naming win conditions, or Tutor targets with Meddling Mage? Name accelleration or the Tutors themselves. It effectively acts like a 2/2 Duress if you do. That's pretty amazing in a tempo deck.

If you can't deal with a turn 1 Xantid with Force, Swords(or Demise), Edict, or Daze, then yes, you're in trouble. You should be able to by turn 2 most of the time. However, in this situation, Duress is still worse than Mage, since Mage can take out more than a single card in their hand, and starts the clock.

Solidarity has a difficult time dealing with Meddling Mage naming High Tide, no matter what David Gearhart says. Forcing them to interact with you is always correct.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare

Most of that is wrong. Why are you naming win conditions, or Tutor targets with Meddling Mage? Name accelleration or the Tutors themselves. It effectively acts like a 2/2 Duress if you do. That's pretty amazing in a tempo deck.

If you can't deal with a turn 1 Xantid with Force, Swords(or Demise), Edict, or Daze, then yes, you're in trouble. You should be able to by turn 2 most of the time. However, in this situation, Duress is still worse than Mage, since Mage can take out more than a single card in their hand, and starts the clock.

Solidarity has a difficult time dealing with Meddling Mage naming High Tide, no matter what David Gearhart says. Forcing them to interact with you is always correct.

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Meddling Mage without any way to peer into the opponents hand should not be acting like a grizzly-cabal therapy without the flashback. Its not duress because the best part of duress is getting to pick the best card, not getting stuck naming something that may or may not have a valid affect on the game. The fact that most of these decks use 3 different tutors makes randomly naming a tutor wrong. Further, naming acceleration is usually wrong but can RANDOMLY win you games. Most decks are running 4 different major accelerants (if not more). Its more likely that you will name the acceleration piece they don't have in their hand than it is for you to get one of them right.

I do agree, however, that you should name high tide against solidarity. Solidarity will give you 3-4 turns to put together a good disruption package on them. This can and should be taken advantage of by maging high tide then cunning wish.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

Meddling Mage without any way to peer into the opponents hand should not be acting like a grizzly-cabal therapy without the flashback. Its not duress because the best part of duress is getting to pick the best card, not getting stuck naming something that may or may not have a valid affect on the game. The fact that most of these decks use 3 different tutors makes randomly naming a tutor wrong.

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Mage is ineffective vs. one combo deck in Legacy, TES. Any of the others, it's a house, and there is an obvious card to name, meaning Mage is never a Grizly-Therapy. Vs. TES, for every time you name LED and they win without it, there are two where you Duress them and they have:

Rite of Flame
Land
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Infernal Tutor
Burning Wish
Lion's Eye Diamond

In this scenario, you lose. Your only choice is to take the LED, but what happens if they rip another one? Mage is a static disruption piece that swings, and you really can't ask for much more in this deck.

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Further, naming acceleration is usually wrong but can RANDOMLY win you games. Most decks are running 4 different major accelerants (if not more). Its more likely that you will name the acceleration piece they don't have in their hand than it is for you to get one of them right.

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Again, you name accel vs. one out of the three decks - TES. You name IGG vs. IGGy, you name High Tide vs. Solidarity. My point wasn't that naming tutors is correct, but that Duress is ineffective vs. them anyway. The goal is to slow the combo deck down enough for you to get your real disruption package online. Mage is more effective at this than Duress is, when used against today's combo decks.

It seems to me that the classic best reason to use black in Thresh has been access to Dark Confidant. With that out, you have Ghastly Demise as the only black card in the main. Is this new guy really good enough to lose things like Mage and STP or Bolt and Fire//Ice?

Black is imo currently a very strong color, but this deck is not really making use of its strengths very well. Instead of showcasing the best stuff like Deed, Hymn, Damnation, etc. you have Ghastly Demise. I'm not saying you should replace the demises with Hymn or something. They are there for a clear reason. But perhaps this deck needs to be seriously reworked when you consider what is going in and what is not being used at all.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare

There is a TON of incorrect information in this thread. I don't really have time to go through and correct it all right now, but I'll address what I can.

First of all, Black absolutely does not improve the quality of your removal. It doesn't. Ghastly Demise is strictly inferior to StP in every way, and this comes from someone who has used both at many, many times. The fact that it cannot answer a Negator or even an opposing Confidant is extremely relevant, and can lose you matches. To say that this is made up for by running Diabolic Edict is a fallacy, and at most it gives you more removal spells at the cost of cantrips or threats. It's blatantly obvious that Red has the most powerful removal package, because it doesn't run a single spell that is dead in the combo matchup. Burn can always fly at your oponent's noggin. While it doesn't have spot removal as potent as StP or Demise, it more than makes up for it in reach.

Engineered Plague is a relevant point of contention, but remember that White has Tivadar's Crusade (or Hail Storm) and Red has PYROCLASM. Both are viable solutions to the Goblin Problem, and as Goblins is basically designed to deal with Plague now, I wouldn't count it as the strongest possible solution to the deck anymore.

Haunting Echoes is AWFUL in Thresh. Notice that Thresh runs zero cards that cannot be played for 4 mana or less (3 with Werebear). This is for a reason. The control matchups you refer to will probably be either Loam decks, Landstill, or Wombat. Vs. the first two, you need to have 5 mana up on your Main Phase, which is an issue in itself when both decks rape your manabase, and then resolve Echoes through disruption (in the case of Landstill). Vs. every one of those decks, Armageddon is a Turn faster, supports your game plan better, affects the present board state, and disrupts your opponent more effectively.

Deed + Nimble Mongoose = Not a combo.

As Dark Confidant is the most important part of the black splash (see the Herbig project - discussed here), all the huge guys and flashy win conditions drive up the potential for Bob to screw you. Even with just Force in the deck I get nervous. Some of you are even advocating cutting cantrips with Bob in the deck! The whole point of fitting him into the thresh shell was to utilize the natural knowledge of your top library card to make Bob free draw. Cutting Portent, Visions, or Brainstorm when they all make Bob better is a mistake. You don't really need Predict or Mental note as much anymore, but both are potent with or without Confidant in play.

Duress absolutely is NOT better than Meddling Mage vs. Combo. I'm not going to get into the debate on whether or not he's needed in UGw thresh with you, because that will go on forever, but let's say you have to choose one or the other. Duress is a temporary solution that takes the most pertinent threat out of their hand. This works into your game plan how? What are you planning to do in order to capitalize on that disruption? Play a cantrip and a Mongoose? Meddling Mage is a threat that they must answer to win the game, or slow down to play around. Either way, he buys you at least some time, where Duress may or may not. Note that this applies more to Non-TES combo decks, but is true there, as well, if you play tightly.

Portent vs. Mage - Mage disrupts your opponent starting turn 2. Portent draws you another counterspell that doesn't help vs. Storm. Note that I don't disagree that Portent is good, but I wouldn't choose it over Meddling Mage.

I may have more later, and feel free to disagree.

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I disagree,

Engineered Plague is the best answer against Goblins, it kills Goblins as soon as it resolves, it weakens the Goblins it doesn't kill, and it prevents Goblins from being cast. Forcing the opponent to SB in Krosan Grip is a good thing, because their removing 4 Goblins for a card that has no effect until after Engineered Plague resolves.

I've used Dark Confidant in all 4 formats, and I've been fine with Dark Confidant in Vintage Fish with just Brainstorm.

Duress is better than Meddling Mage against combo, Duress is B, Meddling Mage is UW, which makes it too slow on the draw and sometimes too slow on the play against Belcher or TES. Meddling Mage has a 33% chance of naming the correct win condition against Belcher and a 50% chance of naming the correct win condition against TES. The default target against TES is LED, and that just makes Meddling Mage a bad Null Rod.

I have higher win percentages with U/g/b than U/g/w against combo, that's the reason I don't bother to use U/g/w for anything other than testing purposes any more.

Cantrips aren't business, cantrips are cards in between business, the difference between having to cantrip for an answer and having an answer in hand is life and death against combo. That said, I don't have a problem with Portent, but using Predict, and not using 4 Dark Confidant, is just terrible.

I'm still not big on Tombstalker in this deck, but he is awesome in U/b/w and U/b/r from the looks of it, casting him on turn is insane if he doesn't interfere with the other threats in the deck.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare

There is a TON of incorrect information in this thread. I don't really have time to go through and correct it all right now, but I'll address what I can.

First of all, Black absolutely does not improve the quality of your removal. It doesn't. Ghastly Demise is strictly inferior to StP in every way, and this comes from someone who has used both at many, many times. The fact that it cannot answer a Negator or even an opposing Confidant is extremely relevant, and can lose you matches. To say that this is made up for by running Diabolic Edict is a fallacy, and at most it gives you more removal spells at the cost of cantrips or threats. It's blatantly obvious that Red has the most powerful removal package, because it doesn't run a single spell that is dead in the combo matchup. Burn can always fly at your oponent's noggin. While it doesn't have spot removal as potent as StP or Demise, it more than makes up for it in reach.

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The point of running Black in this deck is to get the same natural strategy of both worlds, but has to run pseudo-counterparts of that removal because you cant expect to have both Swords and Clasm in the same deck without fucking yourself over. Ghastly Demise and Plague can at least do that, but not perform the greatest. If you run White, you weaken your Goblins MU, if you run Red you weakn your mirror MU. Black just forces you to weaken your Black-Tempo MU.

Also, Red spells have been kept at a minimum to avoid situations where they're dead, even if it's a clock. Burn weakens your game against Threshold and other scary Midgame decks.

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Engineered Plague is a relevant point of contention, but remember that White has Tivadar's Crusade (or Hail Storm) and Red has PYROCLASM. Both are viable solutions to the Goblin Problem, and as Goblins is basically designed to deal with Plague now, I wouldn't count it as the strongest possible solution to the deck anymore.

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Tavadar's Crusade and Hail Storm's casting cost is way too demanding. Besides, in a deck like this, playng a Plague is basically playing a Clasm. It gives you diminant position in the Goblins match up. I realized that Vial Goblins is doing as much as it can to answer Plague, but it's the same as seeing a Port keeping you from White or Green, which keeps you from Crusade and Storm. Plague and Clasm only require one color to play, so trying to avoid being put off-colored isnt as much as an issue people think it is.

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Haunting Echoes is AWFUL in Thresh. Notice that Thresh runs zero cards that cannot be played for 4 mana or less (3 with Werebear). This is for a reason. The control matchups you refer to will probably be either Loam decks, Landstill, or Wombat. Vs. the first two, you need to have 5 mana up on your Main Phase, which is an issue in itself when both decks rape your manabase, and then resolve Echoes through disruption (in the case of Landstill). Vs. every one of those decks, Armageddon is a Turn faster, supports your game plan better, affects the present board state, and disrupts your opponent more effectively.

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Against a deck like RG(b)SA, Rifter, Wombat, Mirror, Truffle Shuffle, LftL, and many others, what's the difference? The only difference between this and Armageddon is because it doesnt require set-up like Armageddon.

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Deed + Nimble Mongoose = Not a combo.

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Neither is EE for 1 and Nimble Mongoose. In a deck where it replaces it's own creatures, it's easy for you to assume dominant position in the Midgame creature deck mirror.

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As Dark Confidant is the most important part of the black splash (see the Herbig project - discussed here), all the huge guys and flashy win conditions drive up the potential for Bob to screw you. Even with just Force in the deck I get nervous. Some of you are even advocating cutting cantrips with Bob in the deck! The whole point of fitting him into the thresh shell was to utilize the natural knowledge of your top library card to make Bob free draw. Cutting Portent, Visions, or Brainstorm when they all make Bob better is a mistake. You don't really need Predict or Mental note as much anymore, but both are potent with or without Confidant in play.

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I advocated cutting Bob. It's the removal I would much rather discuss however.

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Duress absolutely is NOT better than Meddling Mage vs. Combo. I'm not going to get into the debate on whether or not he's needed in UGw thresh with you, because that will go on forever, but let's say you have to choose one or the other. Duress is a temporary solution that takes the most pertinent threat out of their hand. This works into your game plan how? What are you planning to do in order to capitalize on that disruption? Play a cantrip and a Mongoose? Meddling Mage is a threat that they must answer to win the game, or slow down to play around. Either way, he buys you at least some time, where Duress may or may not. Note that this applies more to Non-TES combo decks, but is true there, as well, if you play tightly.

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No, Counterbalance is. Reasons why we dont run Duress anymore.

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Portent vs. Mage - Mage disrupts your opponent starting turn 2. Portent draws you another counterspell that doesn't help vs. Storm. Note that I don't disagree that Portent is good, but I wouldn't choose it over Meddling Mage.

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Portent sets-up the game for you, whereas Meddling Mage disrupts their turn 2 blindly. Portent ensures that you set-up for a Daze, FoW, or Swords. Meddling Mage is just a weak body facing up against a Rotting Giant, whereas, Portent would've gave you an answer to that Giant in the first place.

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Mage is ineffective vs. one combo deck in Legacy, TES. Any of the others, it's a house, and there is an obvious card to name, meaning Mage is never a Grizly-Therapy. Vs. TES.

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You name LED, and EtW will still bite your ass.

About Mage being a house versus every combo MU.... I realize, but do you really need it?

Using Mage against Solidarity is just simply a crutch; you should already be able to beat Solidarity, even without Mage. IGGy Pop is another easy match-up I've beaten without Mage before.

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Black is imo currently a very strong color, but this deck is not really making use of its strengths very well. Instead of showcasing the best stuff like Deed, Hymn, Damnation, etc. you have Ghastly Demise. I'm not saying you should replace the demises with Hymn or something. They are there for a clear reason. But perhaps this deck needs to be seriously reworked when you consider what is going in and what is not being used at all.

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Again, this discussion is best left to the forums to decide whether those cards are redundant. Pernicous Deed from my testing, as been incredible. EE may be better if you want me to be honest, since it can answer Chalice and the Mox early in the game.

Ghastly Demise is good, but not strong. If there's a White Pyroclasm that costed W1, I think we might switch to White. Luckily Tarmogyof is coming out; this gives this deck an edge against Vial Goblins now, since Werebear was always so weak.

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I advocated cutting Bob. It's the removal I would much rather discuss however.

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What??? Cut Bob?? May I ask why? It's the best Cantrip ever, and if he stays for more then a turn it creates card advantage and forces your opponent to deal with it or lose.

@Removal:I've found that Ghastly Demise and Diabolic Edict to be the best options. I ran 4x Ghastly Demise and 3x Diabolic Edict. I tested alot of spot removal and these 2 where the best.

@Mass Removal:I've found that it was never really needed. With the card advantage and quality it never really became an issue, since I have a counter for something that was a real problem or a card to solve the problem ie:Needle or Naturalize.

While Black has alot of what seem to be nice things to offer, you really need to selective. It's really no different then the other color splashs.

Here's my list:

4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
3x Dark Confidant

4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Mental Note
3x Night's Whisper

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Counterspell

4x Ghastly Demise
3x Diabolic Edict

SB
3x Engineered Plague
3x Naturalize (could be Krosan Grip)
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Open Slots

I was testing 2x Krosan Beast. Cutting 1 COunterspell and 1 Diabolic Edict. It was nice as a beater, but lacked evasion and sucked really bad without Threshold. Just throwing that out there.

Future Sight is freaking awesome for Threshold decks.
I think the impact will be huge.

Here is what I would play:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Portent
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Ghastly Demise
2 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Imp's Mischief

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand


SB:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosive
1 Counterbalance
3 Duress

As you can see it's very similar to Gilmores list. Why? Because it's awesome, if you not mention, that he don't run Confidants.

He is the reason to play the deck!
And if your argument ist, that you can reveal a Tombstalker or Force, I can give you a hankie :P

Isn't Tarmagoyf red?

I've said it before and I'll say it again... The only thing that's keeping Black Thresh from rising into upper tiers is the lack of a good removal spell. Ghastly Demise and Diabolic are good, but nowhere near the versatility of Magma Jet/Lightning Bolt nor the power of StP. If Black gets efficient removal along those lines, this would become more popular.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Isn't Tarmagoyf red?

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Tarmogoyf http://mtgsalvation.com/images/image.png

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gifCreature - Lhurgoyf(TS) http://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/fs-R.gifTarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and it's toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal)
#153/180
*/1+*

Whoops, my bad. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Windux

And if your argument ist, that you can reveal a Tombstalker or Force, I can give you a hankie :P

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I've played this deck for awhile. I hardly flip over FoW, so I wouldnt say that's a bad thing since it balances everything out. My problem is getting my board locked up against Fish and the mirror, and all Confidant can do is draw instead of swinging whil my opponent is under exhaust, but still is still maintaining a good stand on the board.

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Originally Posted by Windux

Future Sight is freaking awesome for Threshold decks.
I think the impact will be huge.

Here is what I would play:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Portent
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Ghastly Demise
2 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Imp's Mischief

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand


SB:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosive
1 Counterbalance
3 Duress

As you can see it's very similar to Gilmores list. Why? Because it's awesome, if you not mention, that he don't run Confidants.

He is the reason to play the deck!
And if your argument ist, that you can reveal a Tombstalker or Force, I can give you a hankie :P

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You are only running 16 lands in that build. And on second thought (after some testing) you really need Counterbalance to be in the board with Counterspell in the main. The inclusion of Bob is debatable imo, but Pithing Needle is on the other hand is not. You do not have access to the basic forest (or G mana from Bear) and you need an effective way to stop land hate and equipment spells.

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The inclusion of Bob is debatable

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There shouldn't even be a question. Bob is just too good not to include. I have only died to my own Bob once (Force of Will for to turns). The card advantage he grants this deck, hell any deck, needs to be answered. Not to mention he can block and swing.

@Tarmogoyf:I could easily see this and Werebear together in this deck. It could make up for the lack of playable creatures for the Black splash.

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

There shouldn't even be a question. Bob is just too good not to include. I have only died to my own Bob once (Force of Will for to turns). The card advantage he grants this deck, hell any deck, needs to be answered. Not to mention he can block and swing.

@Tarmogoyf:I could easily see this and Werebear together in this deck. It could make up for the lack of playable creatures for the Black splash.

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Does the deck need more threats than Werebear and Nimble Mongoose? I figured the deck would use Seton's Scout as a 4/3 that can trade with either other Werebear and Nimble Mongoose or Sea Drake and Serendib Efreet before it ran something else.

Even Krosan Beast isn't a terrible finisher.

He ran Krosan Beast for awhile actually. I'm tinkering with this right now since I'm open with all my personal projects...


// Lands 18
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island


// Creatures 15
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant


// Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
4 Engineered Plague
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dark Confidant


Janky as hell. Dark Confidant is easily good now. With Mental Note, draw power, and a higher threat density, this deck pressures just about any deck well in this format. Werebears 5-8 is awesome, and having access to Jittes in the Sideboard is just simply sick. Being able to fight Hanni Fish, Angel Stompy, and Survival decks is just simply savage. I look forward to seeing any variant that is strictly just 3 color UGb Threshold doing well in the future with Tarmogoyf coming out.

I actually had a really similar list with MD Scout and Jitte awhile ago,

How good is the Lhurgoyf? No Artifacts and no Enchantments means the best he can do is 4/5, I'm sure he can grow faster than the other creatures can reach Threshold, 3/4 is average on turn 2, but just adding Drop of Honey and Engineered Explosives gives him 6/7.

Anti~American, I love that list. Dark confidant definitely, in my opinion, needs to stay to make black splash worth while. However, I was also considering using tarmogoyf alongside mishra's bauble and predict. That gives the deck a) card advantage, and b) a way to make tarmogoyf bigger on your own (to 5/6). I've personally never been a huge fan of pithing needle main, as I would rather run extra removal, but that's just me.

@Anti:The list is looking good. But I think you need a secondary card drawer(I don't count BS, MN or SV). Either Night's Whisper or Predict(not a fan of it). That way you still can gain card advantage even if you don't have Bob.

-2 Needle main
+2 Night's Whisper

Also in the board I think you need some form of Artifact and Enchanment removal. I think it's more important then the Counterbalance plan. But it might just be me, I can never get that damn thing to work right.

@Night's Whisper:Here's why I suggest it, it's really simple. It will always draw you 2 cards and doesn't need a set up spell. Yes I know it's a sorcery, but I like the fact that it doesn't need BS or SV to get you the 2 cards.

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

There shouldn't even be a question. Bob is just too good not to include. I have only died to my own Bob once (Force of Will for to turns). The card advantage he grants this deck, hell any deck, needs to be answered. Not to mention he can block and swing.

@Tarmogoyf:I could easily see this and Werebear together in this deck. It could make up for the lack of playable creatures for the Black splash.

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The life loss is not the issue, when he gets online he is wonderful but I would not necessarily call him a threat in the conventional sense. Whether you play him or not you are still going to need cantrips and more than likely Predicts as well. Bob does not help you create reach, a very important resource in certain matchups (survival comes to mind). Tombstalker/Mystic Enforcer/ Fledgling Dragon on the other hand can. And Tombstalker has the added advantage of dodging Dystopia while still costing only BB.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

The life loss is not the issue, when he gets online he is wonderful but I would not necessarily call him a threat in the conventional sense. Whether you play him or not you are still going to need cantrips and more than likely Predicts as well. Bob does not help you create reach, a very important resource in certain matchups (survival comes to mind). Tombstalker/Mystic Enforcer/ Fledgling Dragon on the other hand can. And Tombstalker has the added advantage of dodging Dystopia while still costing only BB.

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That's just sick right there. Dystopia cant kill him, and Tormod's Crypt doesnt make him crap.

I've been tinkering with a deck of:

4 Strand
3 Delta (would be the other way if I had another Delta)
4 Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

4 Goose
4 Bear
3 Confidant

4 FoW
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Demise
2 Edict

4 Brainstorm
4 Visions
3 Portent
3 Predict

2 Needle

The sideboard I'm still tossing around. I know I want 3 Plagues, 2 Crypts, 2 Winter Orbs (this smashed control for me this past Saturday when I was playing Witch Maw Thresh), 2-3 Naturalizes, and then some kind of tools for combo. So far the deck has been performing pretty solidly. I was able to beat Red Death one game by throwing down 2 Confidants and riding the 3 cards a turn to a win against his Anurid, Giant, Specter, 3x Hymn board.

I cut Whispers and put the Predicts back in because for me it's never hard to setup Predict when you run 11 other cards that manipulate your deck. And I've never been much of a Whisper's fan outside of T2. :wink: I do believe Tarmagoyf or whatever will help the deck out by just being independent of the GY for the most part, leaving only Mongoose as the Threshold dependent creature. I might like to try out 4 Goose, 4 Goyf, and 3 Bob here pretty soon.

Cut 2 Edicts and 1 Counterspell for a 4th Predict and 2 SDTs to incorporate Counterbalance in the board.