[Deck] Ichorid

One format that is somewhat similar Legacy is Classic MTGO. This format lacks FoW, Lackey, and several other important cards. However, Vampiric Tutor, Flash, and Skullclamp are all legal, making the power level relativiely close. One Classic deck that I think can be transferred to Legacy is a type of Ichorid deck similar to the ones developed for Vintage. Here's what I'm working on:


4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Deep Analysis
4x Cephalid Colesium
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return

4x Serum Powder

4x Narcomeba
4x Ichorid
4x Street Wraith

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
3x Shambling Shell

3x Flame-Kin Zealot
2x Cephalid Sage

The deck wins on turns 1-2 a surprising amount of the time. A sample opening hand could be:

1x LeD
1x Cephalid Colesium
1x Serum Powder
2x Stinkweed Imp
1x Street Wraith
1x Bridge from Below

First turn: Play LeD and Colesium. Cycle Street Wraith, in response, sac LeD for UUU. Replace draw from Wraith with Dredging 5 times (one Narcomeba, one Bridge, one Therapy in the yard). Sac. Cephalid Colesium. Dredge 5, Dredge 5, Dredge 6. (3 Narcomeba, 1 F-K Zealot, 3 Bridge, 2 Therapy, 2 Dread Return in yard). Sac Narcomeba to Therapy (2 Narcomeba, 6 Zombie tokens in play). Sac 2x Narcomeba+token to Dread Return (11 tokens in play), getting back Zealot. Swing for 36.

These sorts of hands are not uncommon. However, the deck has a significant problem with consistancy, especially on the play. Assuming I choose to be on the draw, here's how 10 sample hands went:

1. Turn 2 win.
2. Mulled into oblivion
3. Turn 1 win (Serum Powder Mulligan to 7)
4. Turn 5 win (Mull to six)
5. Turn 3 win
6. Turn 3 win (Serum Powder mull)
7. Turn 6 win (Mull to 5)
8. Turn 1 win
9. Turn 2 win (mulled to 6, serum powder mull to 6, serum powder mull to 6)
10. Turn 11 win (should have mulliganed here).

That's unfortunate, but I think the deck is worth working on. Future Sight gave Ichoird some powerful tools, and I believe that a deck similar to this one could be very viable.

Having experience with this deck in Vintage, you should probably cut FKZs down to just one and up the Sages. The LEDs are almost as good as Bazaar in the deck. My team figured out that in Vintage, taking three damage for a free One With Nothing was absolutely what the deck needed, so we run the alotted 1 LED there. I'm totally serious about this. You might also consider Dryad Arbor. It really helps to cast Emerald Charm and flash back Return.

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Originally Posted by hi-val

taking three damage for a free One With Nothing was absolutely what the deck needed

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sigged.

Do you really need 4 Dread Return?
Would 3 be enough? Also, just 4 Cephalid Coluseum and 4 LED for popping up your lands and flashback Analysis?

Think twice could help with extra draw from the grave and more dredging.

I gave the deck a try and missed some discard outlets, am I doing something wrong?

What do you do when your opening hand doesn't have LED? Mulligan until it does?

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taking three damage for a free One With Nothing was absolutely what the deck needed
sigged.

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He's actually right. Vintage Ichorid is kind of a strange deck.

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Having experience with this deck in Vintage, you should probably cut FKZs down to just one and up the Sages. The LEDs are almost as good as Bazaar in the deck. My team figured out that in Vintage, taking three damage for a free One With Nothing was absolutely what the deck needed, so we run the alotted 1 LED there. I'm totally serious about this. You might also consider Dryad Arbor. It really helps to cast Emerald Charm and flash back Return.

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I like the FKZs in that they often can immediately win the game, rather than relying on Sage, etc. to find them. My sideboard right now is:

4x Dryad Arbor
3x Bayou
4x Reverant Silence
4x Chalice

I really like the Arbors, they might be good in the maindeck.

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hat do you do when your opening hand doesn't have LED? Mulligan until it does?

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Not necessarily, especially if you're going second. For example, a hand like

2x Street Wraith
1x Golgari Grave-Troll
2x Stinkweed Imp
3x Whatever

is actually quite good. You can discard the Grave-Troll on your discard phase, then dredge with the Street Wriaths to get the ball rolling. LeD is definietly important, however.

Obsessive Search is a replacement/addition for/to Street Wraith that supports Force of Will in the MD/SB. I don't think that the objective here is speed, because the deck is inevitable with just Zombie tokens, Ichorid, Dread Return on Grave-Troll and Cabal Therapy, instead the objective is to add disruption/permission that guarantees that Lion's Eye Diamond resolves and aggro can't get "game, match, point" with mulliganing into Tormod's Crypt game 2.

I think you need MD Unmask, SB Force of Will and either Obsessive Research or Cephalid Sages in the MD to support Force of Will. I'm not certain if Obsessive Research or Cephalid Sages is right, or whether or not a Dredger/Dread Returns should be cut for both, but I'm guessing that Obsessive Research is just as good as Street Wraith and Unmask is more important than non-Troll Dread Return targets.

I thought the point of mana-less ichorid in vintage was to not play any spells and go as fast as you can without having to worry about disruption like force of will. Mana-less ichorid doesn`t port that well to legacy because in legacy you still have to play spells to win the game but there is the same pool of disruption in legacy as there is in vintage and seeing as how force is a very played card I don`t think it will work. The other problem is that although vintage mana-less ichorid wins without ever casting a spell which makes it immune to force of will it is much weaker to other disruption like leyline,crypt and wasteland with no way to combat it. I like the idea but it will never be a metagame defining deck because it scoops to certain disruption. I do think this deck might be able to catch someone off guard and get a few match wins because of it.

Obviously, the dynamics of the deck have to change significantly when you substitute an uncounterable, recurring dredge engine for a counterable, one time outlet, but that doesn't invalidate the deck. I think the problem is that no one is looking past the goldfish and addressing control, where wanting to be on the draw for Cephalid Coliseum and Threshold conflicts with adding Daze to the equation, being on the draw conflicts with using Unmask and Chalice of the Void to stop Tormod's Crypt, being on the draw (or just using Unmask, Force of Will and Misdirection) conflicts with Threshold (or rather you're forced to wait another turn before you can go off).

Game one, you're on the draw, you get to see your opponent's land drop, and from there you can either decide to use Unmask, hope the Cephalid Coliseum can protect LED from Daze or draw/discard and just use the top of your deck and your maximum hand size to Dredge. Game two, Force of Will and Misdirection come in and you pray. Game three is where it gets interesting, because you get to choose between play and draw, where you want to be on the play against aggro so you can get Unmask and Chalice of the Void to disrupt their hate, and you can SB in Basking Rootwalla/Dryad Arbor to factor in Cabal Therapy as well. You can also do some tricky shit, like play LED and pass, and when the opponent plays his Tormod's Crypt, you sac in response and play Circular Logic.

You don't need Obsessive Search to support Force of Will if you bring in Misdirection to, tho' the blue count helps, so you can add Dryad Arbor instead. Commandeer and Foil seem playable, if you have the blue card count for Commandeer and the Dryad Arbor/SB lands for Foil.

It may have a glass jaw, but it's bullet proof glass. As long as your opponent's aren't playing around with Leylines, I think you've got good odds.

Guess I'll post my list which has been testing extremely well since I've been giving it out anyway.

2x Tropical Island
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED
1x Careful Study
4x Breakthrough
4x Deep Analysis
3x Dread Return
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below

2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Street Wraith

My SB

4x Dryad Arbor
1x Tropical Island
4x Chalice of the Void (Post Bannings, helps to race or cripple combo)
4x Reverent Silence
2x Emerald Charm (not random, 5th way to get rid of enchantments and silence is much better)

There are less dredge creatures in my build and there are no serum powders. I have tested with Serum Powder and they hurt the deck pretty bad imo. Cutting to three therapy has been awesome, hasn't affected any matchups except for solidarity. 3 Dread Return is all you need. Flamekin is easy to get to through Sage and draw/dredge. Breakthrough is ridiculous, busted with led + a land.

I lost to the above build on the first turn for two games in a row. I expect big things from this deck.

Was it to me on mws? lol

Since the changes I've been pulling out a lot more turn one kills, this deck seems very solid.

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Originally Posted by Awesomator

Was it to me on mws? lol

Since the changes I've been pulling out a lot more turn one kills, this deck seems very solid.

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Yup!! Keep up the good work!!

I lost to it twice also and the person said they won a Mox tourney with it. Was that you Awesomeator? So Leyline means g3 all the time? what about other gy removal. How do you guys stand up to it?

with a hand of two wraiths and a thug why would you wait until your discard phase? I will admit i know nothing about how to play the deck since I never have, but my inceptive opinion is that wraithing on your upkeep would greatly benefit your tempo since, if you chose, you could dredge at least 3 times before your first main phase.

Vs Leyline there are Silences, Arbors, and Charms. Vs Crypt there are only chalices (or could play needles). Yixlid Jailer is a house vs the deck though, that's if they get around therapies and the speed of the deck.

Are fourteen mana sources enough? Would Chrome Mox be better than Lotus Petal or does the deck just win without needing the mana source a second time? When is Arbor coming in and why exactly?

In testing this deck, I have found that there is a huge poblem in the amount of discard outlets used in the deck. I've tested both careful study and breakthrough, and I love both. The only problem is we only really have room for one.

I happen to side with careful study because to many times I've used break through only to draw DA, DA, GGT, LED and think,"man I wish I could keep that LED" Careful study gives you the flexibility of keeping those LEDs, but it doesn't let you draw enough or dig deep enough into the deck.

Ideally, I wish I could play 8 LEDs in the place of 4 Careful study/breakthrough but I can't. Basicly what I'm trying to get at is that I've had games with this deck where I have turn 1 2 wins half the time and the other I have the god hand, but no way to put anything in the yard. I think a full package of Careful Study and Breakthrough needs to be looked at, but the question is what to take out. Personally, and I feel almost dirty saying this, I think Ichorid's might need to go, at this point they're only an alterntive win condition since a swarm of hasted zombies is so much better.

Wait, I'm a little new to this deck, but is LED used only for the free discard? Other than that what's this deck's plan against small creatures that can sacrifice themselves, like mogg fanatic.

LED's are for playing DA's and Colesiums and getting you're entire hand in the yard. As for fanatic, yea, he's a problem, but hopefully we win before most decks can find him.

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

Daze seems like much more of an issue.

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

Daze seems like much more of an issue.

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They can sac a Fanatic to RFG all the Bridges in your graveyard.

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

Daze seems like much more of an issue.

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Because Mogg Fanatic RFGs all of your Bridge from Below from your graveyard, which is also the reason you can't remove Ichorid as an alternate win condition from your deck if you want to be able to fight against Goblins.

Counterspells aren't a big deal, assuming you are on the draw, you can just use your maximum hand size and Street Wraith in order to Dredge against them. You'll usually win game one unless they have Jotun Grunt, and in that case you just have to enter your scoop phase.

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

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Originally Posted by Bridge from Below

Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from play, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token into play.
When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from play, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, remove Bridge from Below from the game.

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:frown:

Anyway, along those lines I was wondering if 1-2 MD Leylines would make any difference at all in protecting your Bridges. It also has the added bonus of helping out against Thresh, and also possibly in the mirror as well. I'm just thinking that at some point a 1st turn Mogg Fanatic is going to ruin your day. and with the maindeck Powders, you should be able to see it turn 0 (hopefully) reliably enough.

Wow I never got such a quick response by so many people. Ok thanks I forgot about that little clause. Leyline seems like the best option but would you really need it maindeck? The decklist seems so tight as is..

What about removing more Deep Anals for more Carefull Study? It seems to be the more important of the two since its what gets the ball rolling.

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

Wow I never got such a quick response by so many people. Ok thanks I forgot about that little clause. Leyline seems like the best option but would you really need it maindeck? The decklist seems so tight as is..

What about removing more Deep Anals for more Carefull Study? It seems to be the more important of the two since its what gets the ball rolling.

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Really? I don't think I'd ever cut Deep Anal on the basis that LED + Cephalid Coliseum + Deep Anal is the deck's actual engine. How does Careful Study really do anything?

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Really? I don't think I'd ever cut Deep Anal on the basis that LED + Cephalid Coliseum + Deep Anal is the deck's actual engine. How does Careful Study really do anything?

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Huh. I agree with BreathWeapon. Weird.

Careful Study is nice as a draw engine and a discard outlet (which this deck really needs), but I would never get rid of Deep Anals for them. Playing Analysis off of a freshly cracked LED feels like cheating. Also, once you start dredging up a storm, you aren't likely to actually draw into more draw spells, which is why the flashback is so important on DA. Being able to draw two cards for the low low price of 1U without it having to be in your hand is just crazy good.

Also, since the deck is splashing green, has any thought at all been given to LftL? I mean, it's better than Shambling Shell if you're going to run another dredge card, at least. It recurs Coliseums, which is nice, but it would mostly be there as another dredger, which I'm not entirely sure this deck needs after Troll/Stinky/Thug. But I would definitely put it in over the Shell. I mean really.

I don't think Life from the Loam is better than Shambling Shell unless you're actually abusing it by casting it and recurring Cephalid Coliseum, because Shambling Shell supports Ichorid and Golgari Grave Troll. Shambling Shell isn't the best card in the deck, but the additional Dredge, activations for Ichorid and +1/1 for Troll add up.

Could we design around LftL and Cephalid Coliseum like UberMadness?

Careful Study is the weakest Draw spell IMO but still a discard outlet and draws 2, 4 DA is necessary for quick kills.

Awsomator, would you say breakthrough>careful study? I've played alot of versions of this deck and I can never seem to like breakthrough, I hate drawing LEDs or other mana sources and having to pitch them to breakthrough

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Originally Posted by edgewalker

Awsomator, would you say breakthrough>careful study? I've played alot of versions of this deck and I can never seem to like breakthrough, I hate drawing LEDs or other mana sources and having to pitch them to breakthrough

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So play your LEDs, then cast Breakthrough. Duh?

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Originally Posted by MattH

So play your LEDs, then cast Breakthrough. Duh?

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I think he means that he hates drawing mana sources with the Breakthrough, and then not being able to use them because he has to discard them.

Matt, I mean you have no LEDs in hand, you breakthrough, draw lets say and LED and a colesium and then are forced to discard them. I don't know about everyone else, but that makes me die a little inside when I have to do that.

It depends on what you're playing against. Usually, once you get the hand in the graveyard you win, unless you're playing vs combo (Unless you hit therapies on dredge or are able to flashback the therapies next turn) or sometimes Goblins.

In Vintage Ichorid, you just need Bazaar + Dredge. In this deck, however, you need LED + Deep Anal + Dredge, or LED + Street Wraith + Cephalid Coliseum. I find myself mulliganing way too many times for my liking, often removing multiple Bridges, Ichorids, Narcomoebas, or Grave-Trolls. I don't think Serum Powder fits into this deck, but LED and Deep Analysis obviously belong. I feel like you really don't need to go busted on turn 1. You really don't have anything to worry about against aggro, because you have a MUCH faster clock and some disruption. You can race combo and, again, you have some disruption elements through Cabal Therapy. The control matchup isn't really a big deal, because you have so many discard outlets that a Dredge guy WILL find it's way to the yard eventually. There aren't many good decks that play maindeck Extirpate or Crypt. Graveyard hate during the first game really shouldn't be a problem. The problem I see with Manaless Ichorid is that it will get absolutely whomped by graveyard hate in games 2 and 3 and will just fold. Over the past few days, I've developed this from Manaless Ichorid:

// Semi-Manaless Ichorid
// Lands
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [FS] Dakmor Salvage
4 [FS] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FS] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FS] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [US] Tolarian Winds
4 [FS] Bridge from Below
3 [TS] Dread Return
4 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 3 [VI] Emerald Charm
SB: 2 [U] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

Lands:
Maindeck Dryad Arbors are still being tested. They help ease strain on the sideboard when combating graveyard hate games 2 and 3. However, the manabase seems a little weird right now, and I'm sometimes having trouble getting black mana on turn 1 for a PImp. My old manabase was:

4 Deltas
3 Sea
1 Bayou
4 Coliseum
1 Dakmor Salvage

I might want to go to 3 Arbors and run a Polluted Delta (also good for games 2 and 3).

Dakmor Salvage has been good, and I wouldn't go more than 2 at the absolute most. It lets you get that second land for DA flashback and, strangely enough, has ALWAYS put awesome cards into the bin when I dredge.

Dudes:
Putrid Imp has been great for me. He's another cheap discard outlet and will usually get in for 3-6 damage. He flashes back Dredge Return in a pinch.

Flame-Kin is obviously nuts. 45 damage on turn 4? Sign me up. I think 1 is the right number.

Street Wraith is obviously good. Play LED, cycle Street Wraith, pop LED in response, DREDGE. Solid turn 1 play. Feeds Ichorid.

I don't run Golgari Thugs. I couldn't fit them into the list. I know they're really good, but I wouldn't know what to cut. If you guys could figure out where these can go in (or even if they need to go in), that'd be sweet.

Spells:
The only concern I've had is with Tolarian Winds. Sometimes it provides RETARDED turn 2 plays, but most of the time it just gets LED'd away because I have better options. Breakthrough might be better here.

Sideboard:
Oh, yes. This is where Semi-Manaless Ichorid shines. It can easily bring in the ENITIRE sideboard without diluting the gameplan too much.

If you sense Tormod's Crypt (or have looked at peoples sideboards on MWS), just go:

-1 Therapy
-3 Winds
+4 Chalice

and hope to drop that motherfucker as soon as you can at 0. Be careful with LED plays if you already have a Chalice out (i.e. savagely cheat and try to get an irreversable game state). Kidding about that last part. Just don't be stupid and drop Chalice then LED in your opening hand.

When playing against black, always expect the worst: 4 Leyline and 4 Planar Void. Side in the whole package:

-4 Therapy
-3 Winds
-2 PImps
-1 Sea
+4 Reverent Silence
+3 Emerald Charm
+2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Tropical Island

I'm not sure if the sideboarding is right. I don't know when it'd ever be appropriate to side out dredgers or other delicious cards like Bridge. If anyone with some more experience with the deck could help with siding, that'd be cool.

In conclusion, this deck is insane. Bridge from Below is absolutely nuts, LED is completely broken, and Dredge is stupid.

Tolarian Winds was something I have been trying out, but it makes the aggro control matchup much worse because of daze. The build you're playing can handle playing Winds. The deck doesn't need to go off turn 1 or 2, but it helps if you have a hand that can. Serum Powder doesn't belong in the deck I agree. I still prefer Breakthrough/Study to Putrid Imps because of the card draw value, not because they're better discard. Chalices might become needles, I'm testing them now.

EDIT: Breathweapon is a Turd

Warned for flaming. This is your second warning. Three warnings = an account ban.

-PR

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Originally Posted by Awesomator

EDIT: Breathweapon is a Turd

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Yes, sadly this deck is everything Übermadness wishes it was. It drops fat guys into the yard to be played cheap/free with LED unfairness. This deck is much more immune to StP however since your not trying to beat down with a couple 6/6 and 4/4s, but a horde of zombies.

Im liking Jaynels list alot. Underground Sea > Lotus Petal. This deck is fast enough. I usually just want to petal to compliment LED so to cast 2 Deep Anals or provide protection from Daze.

Putrid Imp also seems very needed. Jay the only problem I have with your list is the heavy reliance on LED as the 'madness' outlet. In testing against Thresh all they needed to do was have the FoW for LED and then you were generally screwed. Breakthrough helps but I still want another option.


// Lands
4 Underground Sea
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith

// Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough

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Putrid Imp also seems very needed. Jay the only problem I have with your list is the heavy reliance on LED as the 'madness' outlet. In testing against Thresh all they needed to do was have the FoW for LED and then you were generally screwed. Breakthrough helps but I still want another option.

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I do run Putrid Imps - 4 of them. But you're right, my only outs are Imp, LED, Winds (which eats Daze a lot), and Cephalid Coliseum (which isn't always threshed). There's always the techy play of not doing anything and dumping a dredger in your graveyard turn 2 (a la bad Reanimator).

@ everyone:
What do you think the best number of dredgers is? I run 8, and sometimes I feel like I want more. The list seems really tight though. Any opinions or experience with this?

@ Bane:
How has 10 lands been working for you? Do you ever miss the last Therapy? Has Breakthrough pulled its weight?