[Discussion] Combo Summer- Coming Soon?

History
When the format first had a separate list from Vintage everyone feared the dreaded "Combo Winter of 2004" that never came. Deck lists were untuned and just not strong enough to compete in the metagame; many of which ran four Diminishing Returns, Helm of Awakening, and Goblin Charbelcher which were terrible in the metagame. This lead combo to sit on the backburners of the format with its prized deck Nausea created by Evil Roopey in the open forums. Nausea was an alright combo deck for its time but was never broken or strong enough to break through the barriers of tier two.
About a year later a deck that was based on Ill-Gotten Gains came out called "Iggy Pop" created by Michael Bomholt (Bomholmm), this deck with the addition of the newly printed Infernal tutor was strong enough to take down those barriers. "Iggy Pop" did very well at large events such as GP Philly and Worlds. "Iggy Pop" rained champion of Tendrils based combo for a long while, there was other combo around but wasn't very tuned. About six to eight months later the sets Coldsnap and Timespiral were printed.
Coldsnap and Timespiral gave combo cards necessary to handle control and give combo the edge it had been waiting for all along. The card Rite of Flame was printed it was the second best 'Ritual' effect in the game since Dark Ritual. This card allowed combo to "combo off" more reliably and quickly in the opening turns of the game. The next card to help combo dramatically is a card called Empty the Warrens, this card is was put combo over the edge. Combo could now run multiple win conditions that killed in a timely manner, dodge hate cards like Meddling Mage, and kill with opposite cards to avoid hate for the other win condition.
A deck called "The EPIC Storm" created by Bryant Cook (Wastedlife) would soon break the surface using cards from these new sets. "The EPIC Storm" and "Iggy Pop" would soon start competing to be "the combo deck" of the format. Soon after this "The EPIC Storm" took first place at The Mana Leak Open in Stratford Connecticut piloted by its creator. "The EPIC Storm" would soon break another barrier of being the first ritual based combo deck to break the LMF in over two years.
With the release of the next set Planar Chaos combo gained another powerful tool in the card Simian Spirit Guide, all combo decks alike could abuse it but very few did. With Simian Spirit Guides addition to combo, Belcher lists flourished out of nowhere and a team from Canada would make a list called "CRET Belcher". This list was piloted to a second place finish at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft Three in Baldwinsville New York by Brian Diefendorf (Ewokslayer).
Then Flash Happened.

The Decks
Iggy Pop
The EPIC Storm (TES)
CRET Belcher
Spanish Inquisition (SI)

Combo Summer

Many people believe that these combo decks will dominate the metagame in the summer of 2007, much like the hype of "Combo Winter in 2004". But is this hype? Combo has been performing the best it has ever been in the format currently, for the first time we have a format that somewhat resembles a rock, paper, scissors format. Is combo summer healthy? Many believe that combo being this powerful is bad for the format and will make players withdraw from Legacy. I believe this is the healthiest Legacy has ever been. I said it, "Combo is healthy for the format." With combo in the format, it brings the best deck in the format (Goblins) down to reality and shoves it on its ass. While combo is for the first time at its peak, it's not overly powerful. The "Aggrocontrol" deck of the format still goes near 50/50 with each and every one of these combo decks.

The Big Question
Will "Combo Summer of 2007" happen? Combo now has all the right tools to be successful for the first time in the format. Many people believe that combo is unhealthy for the format and should have certain pieces such as Empty the Warrens or Lion's Eye Diamond banned. While I disagree to this due to the fact that it allows the format to evolve and make changes much like a healthy format should, many other people believe the opposite. The format has dealt with many powerful things and has adapted to deal with them such as Goblin Lackey and Flash. It's not like either card mentioned is unstoppable or utterly broken to the point a large part of the metagame is unplayable. Lets face it, little Timmy's elf deck wasn't competitive before Empty the Warrens; why would it be now? Combo is still a small portion of the metagame, and will always remain a decent but small portion of it.

Thank you for reading, and please discuss.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

History
Combo has been performing the best it has ever been in the format currently, for the first time we have a format that somewhat resembles a rock, paper, scissors format. Is combo summer healthy? Many believe that combo being this powerful is bad for the format and will make players withdraw from Legacy.

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The problem with the rock, paper, scissors analogy is that Combo can still beat decks designed to hate on it, and a lot more effectively than Goblins ever could. Combo can go first and have 16 Goblins on the board, a lethal Belcher shot, or a 11 Tendrils of Agony on the stack before you can get a move, and there isn't a consistent way to stop any of this. Even really good hands can bully their way through Force of Will.

Even if you get a turn, what then? A lot of the storm decks, especially TES, tend to shrug off Duress and Cabal Therapy like they aren't even there. Cards like Hymn to Tourach and Meddling Mage have become too slow, which I think is very bad for the format. Decks are relying on narrow cards like Chalice of the Void simply because it can be played for 0 mana, and 0 mana disruption cards are quickly becoming the only way decks can counteract combo. Four of the biggest anti-combo cards in recent times have been Force of Will, Leyline of the Void, Engineered Explosives, and Chalice of the Void, and Tormod's Crypt isn't far behind. All of which can be played for 0 mana.

I believe that combo is too fast and will drive players out of this format very quickly. The possibility of dying before getting a turn fills a lot of players with a sense of futility and resentment towards the format. Everyone I know around in Birmingham would rather face Goblins than any combo deck because with Goblins, decks have a shot without dedicating 12-20 maindeck slots to fighting it.

Combo being as powerful as it is now is bad for the format.

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Will "Combo Summer of 2007" happen? Combo now has all the right tools to be successful for the first time in the format. Many people believe that combo is unhealthy for the format and should have certain pieces such as Empty the Warrens or Lion's Eye Diamond banned. While I disagree to this due to the fact that it allows the format to evolve and make changes much like a healthy format should, many other people believe the opposite. The format has dealt with many powerful things and has adapted to deal with them such as Goblin Lackey and Flash. It's not like either card mentioned is unstoppable or utterly broken to the point a large part of the metagame is unplayable.

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Flash was banned. Because it made the game unfun and very often people didn't even get a turn. It hit that "Nothing I could do about it" nerve that a lot of people get, correct or not.

Lackey is a 1/1. Lackey can be dealt with by countless cards. Lackey can also be completely ignored by most combo decks, as well as decks packing anti-aggro locks like Solitary Confinement, or decks packing board sweepers by Pyroclasm. Lackey doesn't win the game if he succeeds. Combo decks win the game if they succeed.

Comparing the two for any reason beyond them being the two cards that made the most impact on Legacy is absurd.

Lion's Eye Diamond has had the third heaviest impact of any card in Legacy. It's fueled Gamekeeper Salvagers, Iggy Pop, Epic Storm, and countless other decks including modern Dredge decks. But it's arguable that it's not the culprit, and I don't think it is. Like all the other accelerants, it can cause severe problems, but none of the accelerants on their own are the problem. The problem is when they all get piled together.

The culprits are Empty the Warrens and to a lesser degree, Burning Wish.

Empty the Warrens is the single strongest Storm card ever printed. It's also the single strongest kill condition legal in Legacy right now. Tendrils may kill you instantly, but it takes double black and needs a storm count of 9 to do it. Brain Freeze decks you, but needs multiple copies or a storm count of 15-17. Empty the Warrens can put you in a game state most decks can't recover from with a storm count of only 4-6, which is ridiculous. This means it can do it without any tutoring or drawing, off only the opening hand. Whereas Lackey can be dealt with by fast and good cards like Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, and so forth, a quick Empty the Warrens requires you have a 1-2 mana boardsweeper, and very few of those exist. Engineered Explosives, Punishment, Powder Keg, Sandstorm, and Rain of Blades are the big guns here, but none short of possibly EE has comparable strength to the Lackey answers.

Burning Wish is the strongest tutor in Legacy, and in large part it's Burning Wish's fault (And slightly less so for Infernal Tutor) that Lion's Eye Diamond gets such a bad rep. Burning Wish gives combo decks insane resiliency and consistency, though this is not as large of a problem as the sheer speed of the combo decks.

Combo Summer 2007 will probably happen to a minor degree, but it'll get worse in the Fall. Empty the Warrens will be the chief culprit with Burning Wish as its partner-in-crime, but it's ETW who will ultimately be the most responsible for the downfall of the metagame.

none of those decks shrug off duress like it wasn't there. Occasionally, they will topdeck right back into the card they needed to combo off, but often it can buy you a turn or two, which may be all you need to get more vital disruption online.

Although I did duress an iggy player turn 1 on the play once, and he did have a duress proof hand. That was gay, but there's nothing you can do about it.


As far as a combo summer, I wouldn't be at all surprised. Goblins will still always be a dominant deck, although it may have trouble with the combo matchups, if the format shifts heavily towards combo and anti-combo, goblins will be a solid choice to wreck the anti-combo decks.

Realistically, empty the warrens may be too powerful for the format, but it's way too early to tell.

I feel like many people have a preoccupation with hating combo. People dont like combo because it means that aggro decks without disruption are pretty much useless but I didnt hear much crying when goblins pretty much forced out blue based control. I think it all comes down to people not wanting to change with thier environment. People get comfortable with a certain style of deck being playable and when that is disrupted they get upset. I think combo getting better is good for the metagame because as stated earlier it pushs goblins back to just being a good deck and it means that control can play. With combo getting better it also means that legacy is going to start looking more like vintage and will become more so as more sets arrive. I think its ok as long as it doesnt speed up the format too much and every so often it happens but I think having combo decks that can win consistently on turn 3 is not bad afterall combo wouldnt be any good if it couldnt at least outrace aggressive decks in the format.

Combo is becoming more consistent, and now has stronger tools to fight aggro-control, control, and even the combo mirror.

Bryant, that's a great piece. Now that I think about it, every player, whether they're playing aggro, tempo, stax, or any other combo deck, expect to hate on it. I cant think of very much to hate on combo when they have so much flexibility in the form of Burning Wish (or Living Wish if you're playing Golden Grahams). Being able to answer cards like Null Rod, while forcing them to answer so many must-counters is deadly, but in a deck with a faster goldfish is basically saying "Hi, I'm Combo. I'm Vial Goblins with a faster goldfish and a hot fallback girilfriend (Empty the Warrens, not really, but since it wins, it's hot).

Goblins was able to employ this strategy of answering certain cards while forcing them to be on the edge of the fence. Siding in Tranquil Domain while still playing crap like Matron to find Goblin King(s) and Ringleaders to slowly leverage itself until it can find Domain is quite deadly, considering the fact you have to answer the threats more often than the answers to your answers. In short, reflect that with decks like TES.

I don't think Combo is too good at this point in time.

I agree with the statement that Combo is alot like Goblins- it makes people play good cards, and competitive decks.

Hell, most of the hate against Combo isn't that narrow or is good against other decks such as Stifle, Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, etc. And the one card I don't want to see when I'm playing Combo is Stifle. God that card is so fucking nuts right now.

What I see happening with the increase of decks like TES and Belcher is the rise of Control decks that beat said decks and the decks that prey upon them, Threshold and its ilk.

I believe that the Legacy metagame is incredibly diverse and healthy. Great piece, btw.

I actually prey for said winter, as I know we all know that combo is getting more and more consistant and faster... lets face it people, the turn shifted from 3-4 to a CONSISTANT 1-2 kill. TES and SI love to go first turn with a lethal storm count and make you cry... but if these decks weren't any good, would there be any fun at the table for either player (the pilot of said combo & his opponent).

no one likes to be playing the 'draw go game', whether it be the combo deck that just fizzled or the control deck that forced them to 'fizzle'.

Combo decks need to be good, so control players an have a challenge and aggro players don't have a prayer... that said, looks like I am going to be playing landstill for this combo meta comming up!

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

Combo decks need to be good, so control players an have a challenge and aggro players don't have a prayer... that said, looks like I am going to be playing landstill for this combo meta comming up!

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This is absurd. You can't possibly make an argument for the health of the metagame by completely eliminating an archetype of deck. What you have basically stated is a wish that only two decks exist: Overpowered combo, and decks with overpowered combo in their sights. This was what we had when Flash was legal.

I am all for the health of combo. I think Combo was healthy and has been healthy from the inception of Legacy up until the printing of Empty the Warrens. I feel like Empty the Warrens is the only real culprit that is too strong for the format. It sets up too many situations, far moreso than any other card, where an opponent's game is all but over before his first turn, barring a few nonversatile cards targeted specifically to hate on it. With it gone, combo is still quite strong and versatile and capable of succeeding at large tournaments, as decks like Solidarity, Gamekeeper Salvagers, and Iggy Pop all proved many times on large scales.

In addition to being all for the health of combo, I am also for the health of aggro, control, and all balances between the three. I think Legacy up until Time Spiral was the healthiest a format has ever been. No true tier one deck existed, although goblins earned that reputation.

After a lot of analysis, I recant anything I ever said about banning LED. I think Lion's Eye Diamond is one of the thirteen most important cards for Legacy being a healthy format. (The others I intend to write an article for soon, if I can find a site that will publish it.)

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

no one likes to be playing the 'draw go game',

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But people like to play the game in which only one player gets a turn? You can't really use the "fun" argument, since fun in Magic lies in the challenge posed by gameplay interaction. Sure, some fun lies in winning--but winning gets old fast for everyone involved when you win so fast that nobody has a chance.


With regards to combo, I largely agree with Tacosnape: I'm not too happy with the insane power that it can have, given (especially) EtW (actually, the most frustrating thing is Belcher, since you really have to guess when laying out the hate, due to the dual strategy--same goes for TES and some IggyPop builds, but to a lesser extent since those at least use Storm options to kill), but it's certainly nowhere near as bad as in the Flash days. I find playing against combo to be a chore, really, but that's just my own opinion. I like the fact that it currently has a strong presence in the generalized internet metagame (since it's one aspect of a healthy[ier] format), but I wouldn't want to see it come to dominate. I'd certainly like to see more non-blue (read: non-Stifle) solutions to storm combo, but that's a very tight rope to walk (print hate, and you force combo to adapt so that it becomes even more out of reach). All in all, I can definitely live with a TES/Belcher/etc. combo presence in Legacy.

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And the one card I don't want to see when I'm playing Combo is Stifle. God that card is so fucking nuts right now.

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Seconded. Combo is not that hard to beat if you use the right cards. Hint: not graveyard hate and not discard.

IMO Combo is balanced. If anything, I think aggro control might be getting too strong. Preboard, combo may be 50/50 with aggro control, but postboard, aggro control sides in versatile cards like Stifle and Meddling Mage and gains the advantage. But does the fact that aggro control needs to sideboard combo hate imply that combo is too powerful? No, because aggro control decks are now capable of beating aggro decks without much sideboard help.

I think Combo is balanced, too. But it may have to do with me playing mostly AggroControl decks. I'd like to ask/ state 1 more thing. Over here where I live in southern Germany there is way less Combo around. I mean we get occationally combo decks but usually the people playing them don't know them really and so screw up a lot. We have lots of AggroControl of all kind though, its not like you can play the combo and rule. Maybe if you are an expert. I think a lot of the more casual players, that we have quite some don't like playing combo at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is: Do you think Combo is underrepresented in the whole meta? I think over here it is and I'd like to know if it is really played that much in the states.
All combo loses quite a bit of its strength if you dont play it often, even if its only to know your mulligans, so that keeps it in check here i guess.

It's already happening in Vintage, with combo all over the place (well, much more than the usual, anyway). With combo decks becoming easier and easier to play (e.g. tap 2 islands, cast Flash, win) or mulliganing into Bazaar, more people are picking it up.

In Legacy, the combo decks have been going through major tuning for the past few months (right before Flash), and the pilots have been gaining a lot of experience with their decks that it's just a matter of time before "combo <insert season here>" just jumps into the picture.

I think that the printing of Empty the Warrens wasn't unhealthy for the format. It made combo much better but this must be a general evolution in every eternal format. With the printing of more and more new cards combo is simply the archetype taking most advantage of that. Furthermore the rise of combo is good for the formats reputation as it is more or less" aggro only" atm. So with the rise of combo goblins will become less dominating.

Expanding on Muradin's point, Wizards has taken the stance that Blue is too good (in general). In making their corrections to this theory, they've printed pretty specific hosers to the traditional blue-based control deck (Aether Vial, for instance), and at the same time, not really done anything to slow the combo deck down. They've shifted the mana accel color to red, which really means nothing to Eternal Magic, and continued to print interesting combo pieces for the Johnny's in Standard to play with. The thing is, those interesting combos in Standard are BUSTED in Eternal. There really is no clear cut solution to this. If they make control strong in Standard, we either get some stuff for our control decks or combo gets control cards (Remand). If they make "fair" combo cards, we get crazy ones (Empty the Warrens). And of course, any aggro card sucks if it isn't Creature - Goblin (Char).

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

And of course, any aggro card sucks if it isn't Creature - Goblin (Char).

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Ye of little rememberence. What about Dark Confidant, Watchwolf, Lightning Helix, Boros Swiftblade, Umezawa's Jitte?!?!, Jotun Grunt, Serra Avenger. Aggro has had a decent benefit from Ravnica Block-on, anyway Mare, the format's aggro portion is not all about 'Creature - Goblin'.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I am all for the health of combo. I think Combo was healthy and has been healthy from the inception of Legacy up until the printing of Empty the Warrens. I feel like Empty the Warrens is the only real culprit that is too strong for the format. It sets up too many situations, far moreso than any other card, where an opponent's game is all but over before his first turn, barring a few nonversatile cards targeted specifically to hate on it. With it gone, combo is still quite strong and versatile and capable of succeeding at large tournaments, as decks like Solidarity, Gamekeeper Salvagers, and Iggy Pop all proved many times on large scales.

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The main problem I have with this is look at the three combo decks you listed, each of of them is balls slow and loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage. Combo was very fragile before Empty the Warrens, Empty the Warrens gave combo the the tool it needed to be able to survive Meddling Mage. If a person continues to run Meddling Mage thinking thats all they need for combo they will lose. Combo isn't saying dedicate 15 card sideboards for us, it's simply saying don't be afraid to adapt and make change. Pyroclasm and Enginneered Explosives are both great answers that work against multiple other decks in the format such as Goblins, Threshold, Zoo decks and many others. You don't have to run blue to beat combo either, Hell, last saturday I lost to Ichorid playing TES. With combo on the rise people should make change, being terribbly afraid and dedicating too much is a problem but an Enginneered Explosives in the maindeck won't kill anyone. Its a card every color far and wide can run and its a cheap answer.

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Originally Posted by Watcher487

Ye of little rememberence. What about Dark Confidant, Watchwolf, Lightning Helix, Boros Swiftblade, Umezawa's Jitte?!?!, Jotun Grunt, Serra Avenger. Aggro has had a decent benefit from Ravnica Block-on, anyway Mare, the format's aggro portion is not all about 'Creature - Goblin'.

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You're kidding yourself. Confidant has seen more success as a combo piece or control piece than in aggro. Watchwolf, Swiftblade and Helix are all fine in Zoo, but Zoo isn't remotely as good as Goblins. Jitte is a good card, I'll give you that, but it's on the high end of power level, for sure. Grunt and Avenger are both better in Aggro-control than aggro. We can debate the differences between aggro and aggro-control if you want, but pure aggro strategies that aren't Goblins (which isn't even a pure aggro strategy, but comes closest in tier 1) have little significance in Eternal Formats.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

You're kidding yourself. Confidant has seen more success as a combo piece or control piece than in aggro. Watchwolf, Swiftblade and Helix are all fine in Zoo, but Zoo isn't remotely as good as Goblins. Jitte is a good card, I'll give you that, but it's on the high end of power level, for sure. Grunt and Avenger are both better in Aggro-control than aggro. We can debate the differences between aggro and aggro-control if you want, but pure aggro strategies that aren't Goblins (which isn't even a pure aggro strategy, but comes closest in tier 1) have little significance in Eternal Formats.

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http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5379

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...Watcher487.jpg

The only 2 non-Goblin aggro decks placed... 1st and 2nd. Pure aggro is an archtype that is truly underrated in this format. Everyone thinks it's just Goblins and Thresh has too many big critters to stop Aggro. Well the wake up call is that, this is not true. Non-Goblin Aggro is good in this format, it's just that no one will play the decks since they haven't 'placed'.

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Originally Posted by Watcher487

The only 2 non-Goblin aggro decks placed... 1st and 2nd. Pure aggro is an archtype that is truly underrated in this format. Everyone thinks it's just Goblins and Thresh has too many big critters to stop Aggro. Well the wake up call is that, this is not true. Non-Goblin Aggro is good in this format, it's just that no one will play the decks since they haven't 'placed'.

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Aside from the fact that you've shown a single event as your evidence, and I can quote every other event as mine, it's pretty well known your deck (since fundamentally, we're debating the relevancy of your deck, not the archetype) has game vs. Goblins. There were three Goblin decks in that same T8. Day 1 was won by a combo deck. Day 2 was 26 decks that preyed on Combo decks getting beat by decks that ignored their combo matchup. It was a good metagame call. That doesn't mean it's relevant in the overall format trend discussion.

Although I'm a huge fan of excellent opening posts to spark relevant discussion, I wish Bryant had mentioned Solidarity. Where does that fall into the picture of the possible combo-summer? I think that it at least deserved mentioning in the History of Combo. No?

When talking with Anwar last night he mentioned it as well, I meant for it to be on "Ritual" based combo. Maybe I should've been more descriptive, although, with Solidarity losing numbers at the moment I don't know how much it would effect "Combo Summer".

The combo surge is long overdue. I have been expecting it to happen "very soon" for years now. If it does finally occur it will be a great driving force for the diversity of the format. Combo and Control together represent half of all deck archetypes but their tournament numbers are far below 50%. If/when deckbuilders take metagaming seriously and play fast combo decks, this is going to change, and there will be an indefinite period of new development where the power is shifted from the current definition decks.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

The main problem I have with this is look at the three combo decks you listed, each of of them is balls slow and loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage.

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None of these decks loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage. All are fully capable of removing the Mage from the board. GK Salvagers is also capable of knocking the Mage out of your hand. Solidarity is also capable of countering the Mage. Of this group, Solidarity has the hardest time dealing with mage. I don't fear Mage with GK Salvagers, and while I don't have a lot of experience playing Iggy Pop, I've lost to it after resolving a mage plenty of times. GK Salvagers and Iggy Pop are on occasion also capable of going off before the Mage hits.

I've won tournaments with two of them in fields chock full of Meddling Mages and combo hate, and I've played against the third in semifinals twice. None of the decks are invalid and all are capable of thriving.

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Combo isn't saying dedicate 15 card sideboards for us, it's simply saying don't be afraid to adapt and make change. Pyroclasm and Enginneered Explosives are both great answers that work against multiple other decks in the format such as Goblins, Threshold, Zoo decks and many others.

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They're an answer to Empty the Warrens only. They do absolutely nothing against any other combo deck or combo piece in the entire format. I've found myself facing 10 Goblins before my first turn with a Force of Will in my opening hand more often than I can count. And even if you run Engineered Explosives, Empty the Warrens is creating a situation where on the draw you can't keep an opening hand that doesn't have Engineered Explosives in it, ever.

Engineered Explosives is well on its way to becoming the next Leyline of the Void.

It may be because all I have played in legacy the last year has been either combo, or decks that maindeck chalice of the void, but I don't think combo is out of control. I think it is on the cusp, but not quite there. For example, if there weren't wastelands I think Crimson tide would be the best deck in the format, but it is (ironcally) goblins that is keeping that deck in check. Mage is a hassle to deal with for Tide, and E.truth is instant warrens kill. I do think it is frustrating for decks to lost out to a turn one combo, but in legacy that isn't all that consistent, yet. The only reservation I have (as a solidarity player) is playing against EPIC and staring down that first turn swarm (which seems to happen 900% of the time, yeah, 900%). COTV is a hoser in this format. I just picked up another playset just so I wouldn't have to keep moving mine from one deck to another. They rock against combo, and most aggro/controll decks

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

None of these decks loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage. All are fully capable of removing the Mage from the board. GK Salvagers is also capable of knocking the Mage out of your hand. Solidarity is also capable of countering the Mage. Of this group, Solidarity has the hardest time dealing with mage. I don't fear Mage with GK Salvagers, and while I don't have a lot of experience playing Iggy Pop, I've lost to it after resolving a mage plenty of times. GK Salvagers and Iggy Pop are on occasion also capable of going off before the Mage hits.

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You failed to address that each one of the combo decks is so slow that all hate for them comes online at turn 3, a full 2 turns slower than what we are currently at. Yes, each one of those decks lose to a Meddling Mage on turn two. Maybe not in the literal sense, however, casting Meddling Mage on turn two against combo is like casting Time Stretch. Meddling Mage buys aggrocontrol enough time to sculpt thier hands or find the answers that they need before the combo deck can recover. Yes, each of the decks you mentioned have answers but they either have to find thier answers or have to be a a disadvantage for using them. By this I mean that they either have to be down a life and a card or spend valuable resources digging finding one of thier few answers. I honestly don't know why we're discussing Gamekeeper Salvagers, it's more like The Rock with a combo finish than a combo deck. Every deck you mentioned can find its way out of a Meddling Mage but it puts them at a disadvantage, which is why they fell out of the upper tier because they didn't adapt. Much like how aggrocontrol will fall out of the upper tier if it doesn't evolve with the metagame.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I've won tournaments with two of them in fields chock full of Meddling Mages and combo hate, and I've played against the third in semifinals twice. None of the decks are invalid and all are capable of thriving.

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Do you mean like how aggro control is capable of thriving in a combo metagame? If aggro control evolves with the metagame it is more than capable of winning tournaments filled with combo.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

They're an answer to Empty the Warrens only. They do absolutely nothing against any other combo deck or combo piece in the entire format. I've found myself facing 10 Goblins before my first turn with a Force of Will in my opening hand more often than I can count. And even if you run Engineered Explosives, Empty the Warrens is creating a situation where on the draw you can't keep an opening hand that doesn't have Engineered Explosives in it, ever.

Engineered Explosives is well on its way to becoming the next Leyline of the Void.

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Enginneered Explosives is much more than an answer for just Empty the Warrens, it's amazing against Goblins and many other decks with bad curves in the format. With the format becoming faster and faster casting costs will reduce to 0,1,2, and 3. Permanents of these casting costs are very killable by EE. Pyroclasm is narrower than EE, yes, but is still amazing Vs. the best deck in the format. Not knowing what to Force of Will can cause you to lose to 10 Goblins on turn 1, or they can push thier way through. If combo pushes thier way through play better or more fast answers. Is mulliganing a bad hand away too much to ask? You wouldn't keep a 5 land, Brainstorm, and Daze hand against Goblins why would you against combo?

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

Every deck you mentioned can find its way out of a Meddling Mage but it puts them at a disadvantage, which is why they fell out of the upper tier because they didn't adapt.

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So you're saying that Meddling Mage shouldn't be a valid piece of disruption for combo? Ludicrous.

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Not knowing what to Force of Will can cause you to lose to 10 Goblins on turn 1, or they can push thier way through.

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Not knowing what to Force has nothing to do with it. I challenge you to beat this hand with a Force of Will:

Taiga, Elvish Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Tinder Wall, Lotus Petal, Empty the Warrens.

There's a hundred variants of it I could easily list off. The simple reality is that you're facing 10 Goblins on turn one. 12 if you attempt to Force.

GG.

You could have a godlike anti-combo hand with UGW Threshold, say, Tropical Island, Flooded Strand, Force of Will, Stifle, Pithing Needle, Brainstorm, Meddling Mage. And if Belcher is going first, that hand loses unless your Brainstorm hits Engineered Explosives. What you're saying is that, much like how many decks were forced to mulligan for Leyline to beat Flash, we now should have to auto-mulligan for Engineered Explosives / Pyroclasm to beat Empty The Warrens?

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

So you're saying that Meddling Mage shouldn't be a valid piece of disruption for combo? Ludicrous.

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What I'm saying is its a fine disruption piece, one of the better ones, but it shouldn't buy aggro control a Time Stretch for UW. Mage paired with other cards is good enough to stop combo but Meddling Mage alone shouldn't say "Iggy Pop can't win." Meddling Mage paired with Stifle is very hard for TES/CRET Belcher and many others to stop. Maybe instead of investing two mana in that Meddling Mage they should've waited to keep Stifle mana open. Almost every one of the combo decks mentioned gets raped by Stifle. TES is one of the very few to be able to deal with Stifle consistantly game one due to Xantid Swarm and Orim's Chant, Belcher can deal with Stifle postboard due to 5 REB/Blasts.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Not knowing what to Force has nothing to do with it. I challenge you to beat this hand with a Force of Will:

Taiga, Elvish Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Tinder Wall, Lotus Petal, Empty the Warrens.

There's a hundred variants of it I could easily list off. The simple reality is that you're facing 10 Goblins on turn one. 12 if you attempt to Force.

GG.

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Congrats you created an invisible hand against Force of Will, but that whole hand loses to 3 cards and two of which are lands. Island, Fetchland, and EE. A mulligan to three in theory can turn an opponents whole 7 card hand into a mindtwist leaving them with a Tiaga. Both sides of the arguement are valid, I'm not argueing that hand wasn't broken.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

You could have a godlike anti-combo hand with UGW Threshold, say, Tropical Island, Flooded Strand, Force of Will, Stifle, Pithing Needle, Brainstorm, Meddling Mage. And if Belcher is going first, that hand loses unless your Brainstorm hits Engineered Explosives. What you're saying is that, much like how many decks were forced to mulligan for Leyline to beat Flash, we now should have to auto-mulligan for Engineered Explosives / Pyroclasm to beat Empty The Warrens?

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If your opponent gets the nuts I guess you lose but that is apart of the game. If you can't accept that your opponent is either lucky enough or out played you, you probably shouldn't be playing. People didn't complain when Solidarity stole the stack and made everything you did futile, people sucked it up and played faster decks with faster answers.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

If your opponent gets the nuts I guess you lose but that is apart of the game. If you can't accept that your opponent is either lucky enough or out played you, you probably shouldn't be playing. People didn't complain when Solidarity stole the stack and made everything you did futile, people sucked it up and played faster decks with faster answers.

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By this logic, we should never have banned Flash.

I can accept being outplayed. In fact, I love being outplayed, because I learn something. I can accept occasional ridiculous luck, too, because as you said, it's part of the game. And it happens to me as often as anyone else.

Yet at some point there has to be a line between what players should be forced to adapt to and what distorts the format and makes it unfun. Flash clearly crosses that line, Goblin Lackey doesn't. The line exists somewhere in between, as does Empty the Warrens, which makes it a highly arguable point as to which side of the line it sits on.

I personally find the line to be drawn here:

I believe I should be able to, on a fairly consistent basis, get one land down on the draw before losing or facing an nearly unrecoverable game state. By nearly unrecoverable, I mean you lose unless you have a specific card designed to stop this exact situation. I believe there are enough 1CC spells to make an acceptable defense against anything, but definitely not enough 0CC spells. On the draw, Empty the Warrens can put you in an unrecoverable game state before your first turn. Goblin Lackey takes until before your second turn, as he actually has to hit you.

I don't enjoy magic if I can't get at least one land out on a consistent basis, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. If I was, Flash wouldn't have gotten banned. Sure, you can aggressively mulligan for Engineered Explosives, but what about in a real tournament where you don't know what you're facing? Do you automatically throw every hand without an Explosives back if you lose the die roll for fear of facing Belcher? Of course not. You can't. But you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you. And I feel like when you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you, the format's too fast and not a whole lot of fun.

Therefore I think Empty the Warrens crosses the line.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

By this logic, we should never have banned Flash.

I can accept being outplayed. In fact, I love being outplayed, because I learn something. I can accept occasional ridiculous luck, too, because as you said, it's part of the game. And it happens to me as often as anyone else.

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Theres a difference between Flash and Empty the Warrens based decks, the difference being that Flash was a two card combo that you could effectively protect with the rest of your deck. Empty the Warrens is a card that needs your whole deck to be built around it in order for it to be good. When building your whole deck around a card it leaves very little room for answers such as Chain of Vapor/Force of Will. Flash also consistantly killed on turn two, where as Empty the Warrens based decks don't actually kill until turn three which is when Enginneered Plague comes online. Comboing out on turn 1 and killing on turn one are two different things and I think your perspective on this is a little blurred.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Yet at some point there has to be a line between what players should be forced to adapt to and what distorts the format and makes it unfun. Flash clearly crosses that line, Goblin Lackey doesn't. The line exists somewhere in between, as does Empty the Warrens, which makes it a highly arguable point as to which side of the line it sits on.

I personally find the line to be drawn here:

I believe I should be able to, on a fairly consistent basis, get one land down on the draw before losing or facing an nearly unrecoverable game state. By nearly unrecoverable, I mean you lose unless you have a specific card designed to stop this exact situation. I believe there are enough 1CC spells to make an acceptable defense against anything, but definitely not enough 0CC spells. On the draw, Empty the Warrens can put you in an unrecoverable game state before your first turn. Goblin Lackey takes until before your second turn, as he actually has to hit you.

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This "line" that you created allows a 1/1 to hit you on the second turn and theoretically drop a hand but doesn't allow 6-12 1/1's to hit you on the second turn. Empty the Warrens rarely has an opponent dead before they hit two land. You can stop Goblin Lackey with spot removal, yes? Why not change your spot removal spots to mass removal and deal with all the little green men? It seems like you are unwilling to change the way you play or atleast your perspective on the situation.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I don't enjoy magic if I can't get at least one land out on a consistent basis, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. If I was, Flash wouldn't have gotten banned. Sure, you can aggressively mulligan for Engineered Explosives, but what about in a real tournament where you don't know what you're facing? Do you automatically throw every hand without an Explosives back if you lose the die roll for fear of facing Belcher? Of course not. You can't. But you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you. And I feel like when you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you, the format's too fast and not a whole lot of fun.

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But you can have a land out on a consistent basis, hell, Empty the Warrens doesn't even kill until you have two lands out. If you're not playing a deck that can't disrupt an opponent in this metagame, you probably shouldn't be playing it. Your opponent doesn't even have to be playing combo, a Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach, Stifle, Pyroclasm, Enginneered Explosives, Enginneered Plague, Wrath of God/Damnation (If they Warrens on turn two), Echoing Truth, Echoing Decay, Rain of Blades, Tremor, Infest, Nausea, Cave-In, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, Ensaring Bridge, Umezawa's Jitte, Savage Twister, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, Hail Storm, Orim's Chant/Abeyance and many other cards are all playable and can be good against Empty the Warrens and other decks of different magnitudes.

You just have to learn to accept change and travel with it.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

By this logic, we should never have banned Flash.

I can accept being outplayed. In fact, I love being outplayed, because I learn something. I can accept occasional ridiculous luck, too, because as you said, it's part of the game. And it happens to me as often as anyone else.

Yet at some point there has to be a line between what players should be forced to adapt to and what distorts the format and makes it unfun. Flash clearly crosses that line, Goblin Lackey doesn't. The line exists somewhere in between, as does Empty the Warrens, which makes it a highly arguable point as to which side of the line it sits on.

I personally find the line to be drawn here:

I believe I should be able to, on a fairly consistent basis, get one land down on the draw before losing or facing an nearly unrecoverable game state. By nearly unrecoverable, I mean you lose unless you have a specific card designed to stop this exact situation. I believe there are enough 1CC spells to make an acceptable defense against anything, but definitely not enough 0CC spells. On the draw, Empty the Warrens can put you in an unrecoverable game state before your first turn. Goblin Lackey takes until before your second turn, as he actually has to hit you.

I don't enjoy magic if I can't get at least one land out on a consistent basis, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. If I was, Flash wouldn't have gotten banned. Sure, you can aggressively mulligan for Engineered Explosives, but what about in a real tournament where you don't know what you're facing? Do you automatically throw every hand without an Explosives back if you lose the die roll for fear of facing Belcher? Of course not. You can't. But you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you. And I feel like when you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you, the format's too fast and not a whole lot of fun.

Therefore I think Empty the Warrens crosses the line.

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Sometimes you are just going to lose to combo. Sometimes you are just going to lose to Goblins.
It happens.
It doesn't mean that it is broken.
I lost to Dragonstorm in Standard in his second turn after I just got to go Land, Elf, Go.
Does that make Dragonstorm too powerful?
No, because it won't constantly do that.
Belcher in Legacy won't constantly get a Force of Will proof hand.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

no one likes to be playing the 'draw go game', whether it be the combo deck that just fizzled or the control deck that forced them to 'fizzle'.

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I hate combo with a passion because it goes against all of my aggro/control instincts. I love it when I get into draw-go with a combo deck because 9 times out of 10 I'm going to draw a win before them at that point. It's just really hard to get there when they are going off turn 1 to 3 as often as they are.

You can't just compare combo decks to one another and use those comparisons as a basis for an argument, because combo is an analogous term used to describe a set of decks that use the interaction of multiple cards to either end the game or create a dominant board position, and while their objectives are the same, their mechanics are not. High Tide, Gamekeeper/Salvagers, IGGY POP, TES, Belcher and Flash are all separate entities, and just because one combo deck was bad for the format doesn't mean that another combo deck or all combo decks are bad for the format.

If combo does become more popular, it's just going to force Suicide, Threshold, Aggro-Prison or Prison to take on a more prolific position in the metagame and turn Goblins into a metagame deck. People are over exaggerating just how fast and consistent combo decks are in this format, because with the exception of Belcher, the worst combo can do is redefine the fundamental turn to 3, and Belcher is an "All-In deck" that is either winning or losing on the first turn, which is just as much of a detriment to it as it is an advantage for it.

Flash was a problem because Flash was a one card win condition with the most efficient tutors and counters the game had ever seen, it DESTROYED aggro-control, and the only way to really contain it was to MD or SB Leyline of the Void. The moment combo starts to look like combo-control and has a fundamental turn of two is when you should start panicking, but short of that, if combo as we understand it become a more prolific metagame force that's an acceptable result of the card pool. I mean for fuck's sake they unbanned LED, so they had to know combo would be a serious factor eventually.

But to make this happen the combo player must be on the play and has to have a quite good hand providing him the ability to go for 10+ tokens first turn. Most hands with that ability will become significantly worse facing down force of will. TES and similar combo decks are still much more fragile than flash and can in no way be compared to it in resilance.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

But you can have a land out on a consistent basis, hell, Empty the Warrens doesn't even kill until you have two lands out. If you're not playing a deck that can't disrupt an opponent in this metagame, you probably shouldn't be playing it. Your opponent doesn't even have to be playing combo, a Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach, Stifle, Pyroclasm, Enginneered Explosives, Engineered Plague, Wrath of God/Damnation (If they Warrens on turn two), Echoing Truth, Echoing Decay, Rain of Blades, Tremor, Infest, Nausea, Cave-In, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, Ensaring Bridge, Umezawa's Jitte, Savage Twister, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, Hail Storm, Orim's Chant/Abeyance and many other cards are all playable and can be good against Empty the Warrens and other decks of different magnitudes.

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Bold: Too slow to stop Empty the Warrens when it goes off turn one before you get a move without acceleration.
Underline: Narrow janky crap.

This leaves us with Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives, Echoing Truth, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Glacial Chasm. I'll add Crime//Punishment to this list, as it does the job too.

Tabernacle and Glacial Chasm are narrow and can only be supported effectively in a few decks. Pyroclasm can only be run in Red, and the premier Red deck in the format can't afford to run it (Though it can run Brightstone Ritual.) It's solid in secondary red decks, though. Echoing Truth is rarely run outside of Blue combo, just because bouncing isn't considered to be a viable long-term solution. Crime//Punishment requires you be running Black and Green to pull off.

This leaves Engineered Explosives as being unquestionably the best answer to Empty the Warrens, and in my opinion the only one that fits into over half the decks in Legacy.

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You just have to learn to accept change and travel with it.

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On the contrary, I'm entitled to make my points and arguments all I want and I don't have to learn to accept it at all. Time will prove Empty the Warrens to be the format-distorting card it is (It's already taken 1st place at multiple decent-sized tournaments), and I'll continue to be the loudest voice against it remaining in the format.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Bold: Too slow to stop Empty the Warrens when it goes off turn one before you get a move without acceleration.
Underline: Narrow janky crap

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These are only too slow if you play janky or improperly designed decks.

Engineered Plague - Playable from turn 1 on in all decks that run it except builds of Landstill and Fish (decks that are generally slow control decks or decks that provide other answers)

Wrath of God/Damnation - Playable from turns 2-3 off of Moxen (coincidentally, what many control decks play, or Dark Ritual in the case of Damnation).

Infest - Playable from turn 1

Ghostly Prison/Propaganda - Playable from turn 1 in Stax, which is the only control deck that runs it.

Ensnaring Bridge - Playable from turn 1 in Stax, the only deck that can run it, and effective between turns 2-4 depending on the number of mulligans and the rest of the hand. Not a consistent answer in most decks. The only deck to play this card runs 4 Rolling Earthquake main and up to 3 Pyroclasm, both easy answers to ETW.

You left out an absolute meta bomb that can come online as early as turn 2 against later than turn 1 ETW: Aether Flash. In addition to completely nullifying ETW, it hoses Goblins, a good part of Fish as a singleton, a good part of deadguy, and with two destroys most creatures in the format preemptively.

Empty the Warrens is no more format distorting than Goblin Lackey is, one just advocates mass removal while the other advocates spot removal, neither of which are too narrow to include in a MD any way.

You can also add Sandstorm to that list as anti Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey removal.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Empty the Warrens is no more format distorting than Goblin Lackey is, one just advocates mass removal while the other advocates spot removal, neither of which are too narrow to include in a MD any way.

You can also add Sandstorm to that list as anti Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey removal.

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Actually both advocate cheap mass removal. It doesn't matter if lackey hits you if you can wipe away whatever he drops turn 2. Furthermore, if you can prevent anything lackey drops from mattering (say with Aether Flash) you can stop both ETW and Lackey.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

You can also add Sandstorm to that list as anti Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey removal.

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Now there's an interesting green option I'd forgotten about. Very interesting...

Combo wouln't become a huge problem simply because cause at large event's ether 1) it's too expensive to build, 2) too hard to play all day, or 3) you have a deck you like to play more.

it's pretty simple, TES is way powerful, but it still only takes 1 top 8 and the other 6 slots are aggro/control.

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Originally Posted by emidln

Actually both advocate cheap mass removal. It doesn't matter if lackey hits you if you can wipe away whatever he drops turn 2. Furthermore, if you can prevent anything lackey drops from mattering (say with Aether Flash) you can stop both ETW and Lackey.

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Sometimes just connecting once and resoling Goblin Ringleader is good enough to make me want to use spot removal in place of mass removal to prevent Goblins from generating the card advantage, but I agree that mass removal in and of itself is too good to dismiss over spot removal and that Engineered Explosives in particular is amazing right now.

Sandstorm is a super solid go between card tho' in terms of preventing a Goblin Lackey from connecting and still serving as mass removal. I really liked that card in 3cSlide when I replaced Swords to Plowshares for it, and it probably deserves to see more play than it does.