The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

The Cure
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Latest Update: March, 04. 2010

What's The Cure?

The Cure is an aggro/combo deck that makes uses of several entwined combos to bring gigantic monsters to the table really fast and win long before the opponent has time to stabilize. The most important of these cards being Kavu Predator, False Cure and Berserk. Any of these cards alone are strong enough to spell doom for the opponent, but any two of those will likely give you the game on the spot. The very low mana requirements of this deck plus the extreme redundancy of its combo parts allows for a blazingly fast and consistent clock (in the turn 2-4 range) that outraces most aggro, while its aggro core and unconventional structure makes it impervious to most forms of traditional combo hate.

The deck also features built-in protection against lifegain, enchantments, land destruction and some removal spells like edicts or snuff out. False Cure is specially cruel against Tendrils, turning the win condition against its caster. The creatures also have protection from Burn because of all the free pump spells and abilities the deck packs, which make them near unkillable by red decks. Because the deck has so many ways to go off, it also has partial built-in protection against silver bullets like cabal therapy, extirpate, chalice of the void, and meddling mage.

The Cure (Legacy G/b)
Author: Carlos Hoyos (DrJones)
Version: 1.4

Lands (13)
4 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures (24)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Wild Mongrel
3 Dark Confidant
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Tarmogoyf

Spells (23)
4 Lotus Petal

4 False Cure
3 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Reverent Silence
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard (15)
4 Compost
3 Tempting Wurm
3 Thoughtseize
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke

Previous Version:

Lands (13)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Bayou
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

Creatures (24)
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [ARB] Putrid Leech

4 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger

Spells (24)
4 [TE] Lotus Petal

4 [ON] False Cure
4 [U] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
3 [NE] Reverent Silence
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa

Sideboard
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [UD] Compost
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [SHM] Gleeful Sabotage
SB: 3 [TE] Choke

FAQ

1. I) Why would I want to play this deck?
   
   If you like big creatures, this deck has the biggest ones. Stupidly big at that, really. The damage dealt is enough to kill two or even three players, so even if they block your creatures by, let's say, Progenitus or two Dreadnaughts, you still have enough punch to kill the opponent. On turn THREE. Another reason is if you enjoy playing combo but you don't like losing against daze/force of will/chalice/leyline; the deck is not as fast as pure combo decks, but is not as easy to hate either, plus the opponent will likely have the wrong sideboard to begin with! The deck packs its OWN combo hate, too.
   You also might want to play this deck if you liked Berserk Stompy, because both decks are pretty simmilar.
2. II) How fast/reliable is this deck?
   
   Very fast, out of 500 goldfishes, and assuming that you play your deck optimally (which might require practice) here are the statistics:
   
   Going first:
   Average Winning Turn: 3.6.
   % 2nd turn kills: 7.5%
   % 3rd turn kills: 32.5%
   % 4th turn kills: 55%
   % 5th or worse: 5%
   Mulligans required: 0 (70%) 1 (20%) or 2 (10%)
   
   Going second:
   Average Winning Turn: 3.045
   % 2nd turn kills: 18.5%
   % 3rd turn kills: 60%
   % 4th turn kills: 20%
   % 5th or worse: 1.5%
   Mulligans required: 0 (80%) 1 (15%) or 2 (5%)
   
   Going second makes the deck noticeably more stable and faster. It also enables some 2nd turn kills that can't be done when going first. Note, however, that sometimes it gives the opponent one turn more to live because he starts. It also means you have one extra threat and he has one card less for defense. I have the feeling that this deck is stronger when going second, which is weird for an aggro deck. Testing about this remains unconclusive.
3. III) Does this deck lose to Force of Will/Duress/Swords to Plowshares?
   
   
   The short answer is no, but a combination of those cards can slow the deck just enough for the opponent to have time to cast spells that really can give this deck a problem. Merfolks, for example, run Force, but many testers consider this deck a bye because it has to face too many creatures that get too big too soon, and swords alone is insufficient to stop the swarm. Heavy discard decks can be a problem pre-board, but after siding in the Chalices and Compost they become easy.
   
   Note that unlike other combo decks, every single copy of the trio can do a considerable amount of damage if unanswered, so you can't simply ignore one card and try to stop the others. Also, the life gaining effects are uncounterable and can affect several cards at once. For example, having two kavus on play: in this situation, even if the opponent casts swords on one after playing invigorate, that doesn't make it a true 2-for-1 because the other Kavu also gets bigger.
4. IV) Questions related with specific card choices:
   
   Why Dark Confidant? Dark Confidant might look like an awkward deck choice at first, with so many 3cc and 4cc spells. However, there are three very important reasons to play him. The first one is because drawing cards is good. No, seriously, look back at the statistics and see the enormous difference that a single extra card makes in this deck. The second reason is because this deck is so fast that if he sticks around the game will end really soon, so at most you will take about 8 damage in very unlucky situations, which is equal to nothing because trying to race this deck is suicidal. The third reason is that Dark Confidant is a beater, and the more you can have the better. Many testers play up to 4, while slower builds should explore other options or add Sensei's Divining Top to their lists.
   
   Why Mongrel? Mongrel seems another awkward choice because there aren't any other cards in the deck that can abuse it. There are many reasons to play him, though. The main one is that he can grow very big very soon, making him perfect for Berserk. Some 2nd turn kills can only be made thanks to Mongrel. Another reason is that he gives another use to cards that otherwise would sit dead in your hand like extra lands, unplayable cards due to chalice or trinisphere, cards you don't need in that matchup, etc. As a plus, he avoids some semi-popular hate usually aimed at Tarmogoyf, such as Hibernation, Perish, Mind Harness or Snuff Out. He can also take a Tarmogoyf in combat if really needed, but where he really shines is against counterbalance/trinisphere decks that make most of your hand useless. It has some sinergy with Tarmogoyf and Quirion Ranger.
   
   Why no/so few Tarmogoyfs? In earlier versions I didn't play any copies of Tarmogoyf. My reasoning was that he is not very good in the early game as he takes a bit of time before growing up, which in turn makes him a bad target for Berserk if you want to kill fast. Besides that, Tarmogoyf cannot race an early opposing Tarmogoyf, something Wild Mongrel and Putrid Leech have no problem doing. While all of the above is true, the most up to date decklist includes two copies of Tarmogoyf to fix a vulnerability in the mid-late game, as I discovered that Mongrel, Putrid and Kavu were pretty bad topdecks if you have no cards in hand and are low at life.
   
   Your manabase seems fragile and risky! Feel free to change it to your tastes, but keep the number in the 12-14 range as long as you play Quirion Ranger.
5. V) What's the most damage you did in one turn?
   
   Even though this deck commonly deals +30 combat damage, the most damage I managed to do was 70 trampling damage on my second turn against a goblin player that told me to gently <censored> before disconnecting.
   
   If you mean "most damage in turn one", that would be 16 damage (leaving in play 2 skyshroud cutter to finish the job the next turn).
6. VI) How do I know if I'm playing this deck correctly?
   
   Suboptimal plays make you slower, which affects your perception about several cards in the deck. You'll notice you are playing the deck right when Dark Confidant becomes amazing and Tarmogoyf becomes horrible.
7. VII) Can you post a 'budget' version?
   
   Ok. For a semi-budget version, you just need to buy 2 berserks (the ones From the Vault: Exiled are relatively cheap) and play up to 2 Rite of consumption. Play duress or cabal therapy instead of Thoughtseize. You can also replace 3 fetchlands with 2 land grant and a swamp. Chalice of the Void can be replaced by 2-3 Vines of Vastwood, and you can add Might of old krosa to make the deck speedier.
   A true budget deck with no Berserk might want to use 4 land grants and 3 ankh of mishra; it also might need to splash white for swords and qasali pridemage, and require at least 2 revised bayou. Murmuring Bosk is an option but can't replace them. Note that a slower builds will have to devote slots to answer cards that the faster build can mostly ignore, such as Sower of temptation.

----------------------------------------------

Strategy review

The Cure follows the Blitzkrieg strategy with focus in Speed. The goal lies in building a lot of pressure very early so that the opponent has to spend his or her turns in defense mode instead of developing his game. Usually, this means that your first threat will get destroyed or countered (otherwise, the game will end really soon), but the deck packs so many that you are almost guaranteed to get one in play sooner than later. Because most of the threats cost 2, the deck can play Chalice of the Void set at one to greatly undermine the opponent's ability to respond, while barely affecting you. A first turn CotV is devastating against decks that rely on Ponder/Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top to find the lands they need. The inclusion of 8 mana accelerators lets you to "virtually skip" your first turn and begin the game directly in your second.
While speed is a major component of this deck's strategy, you don't have to hurry if you feel the opponent has a trick in his sleeve. The safe play would be starting with Confidant, aiming for a 3-4 turn kill, as is the most likely card to resolve. Another option is to drop mongrel or leech so that they "clear" the path for your Kavu Predator. However, Kavu Predator followed with a gain life card is by far the strongest early play and might be worth the risk. If you can wait a turn before playing the life gaining cards you might be rewarded with a topdecked kavu or false cure, so don't be impatient.
If you have a Quirion, try to keep the number of lands in play low, so that you can feed mongrels if needed and your opponent has to guess if you are mana-screwed or not. Don't force this rule if you have a kill in hand that requires 3 mana. Try to attack with Quirion and Dark Confidant as much as you can, the opponent probably will not risk to lose blockers to pump spells and trades favour you.
Learn to read your opponent's mind: look for clues in their behavior that reveal if they hold a force or swords and act accordingly. With little practice, it's very easy to cast berserk without getting 3-for-1. Don't worry about making sacrifices: your low land count means that you'll keep drawing stuff while they draw lands, and you pack more threats than they pack answers. Just keep the pressure!

Tips and Tricks to play the deck, and some 2nd turn kills.

Card by card explanation:

• Fetchlands: The deck needs :g: first turn to cast Kavu, and :b::b: second turn for False Cure, and lands have to be forest, so you need ways to find Bayou. Also, they thin your deck of lands to keep drawing the good stuff. Don't activate them if you don't need them because it protects you from Wasteland.
• Lotus Petal/Spirit Guide: Needed for first turn mongrel/kavu, to cast Berserks and Mights of Old Krosa, avoid daze, pay for trinisphere, and attack if needed.
• Chalice of the Void: Set at 0 slows down combo and lock decks, and set at 1 shuts down most removal and a lot of utility cards your opponents might be playing (specially control and combo decks). While the last one configuration also shuts down Berserk, you usually won't need it if you get one of these in play (in the other cases, just play Berserk first).
• False Cure: Turns your cards into burn. Combo wins. Double Cure does thrice the damage. Allows to win through circles of protection and glacial chasm among other things. Foil against Tendrils and life-gaining effects. Also can be played as pseudo-discard against blue decks, as they will be forced to counter it or risk losing on the spot.
• Kavu Predator/Mongrel: The Cure's main beaters. Play at least 11 big beaters.
• Quirion Ranger: Generates mana by replaying the lands you return to your hand. Protects from LD (wasteland,armageddon) and tap effects(stasis,fire/ice), untaps your beaters to stop tarmogoyfs, target for early pump spells, and feeds lands to mongrel.
• Dark Confidant: Beater and draw engine. The opponent will likely not block it because it makes you lose a lot of life in the long run, so turn him sideways a lot!
• Reverent Silence: Works against counterbalance, moats, humillity, treads of disloyalty, propaganda solitary confinement, survival, and some more. The deck only needs 3 to work, just in case you need to make space for some card in your sideboard.
• Skyshroud Cutter: Eats diabolic edicts and innocent blood, avoids counterbalance. In some rare cases you will want to play him first turn for double berserk kills. In two-head giant has thrice the effect.
• Tempting Wurm: Cheap monster that works at its best against decks that empty their hand soon (affinity) or play few permanents (Canadian Threshold, Ad Nauseam Tendrils, Burn). Good in topdeck mode when hands are empty, and the second one you cast is drawback-free.

Other cards to consider:

• Land Grant: Worse than fetchlands against counters, trinisphere and discard, but better against stifle, root maze and moon effects. Pumps Goyf, and better than fetchlands if you play Ankh of Mishra.
• Rite of Consumption: Cheap black berserk replacement that WotC seem to have designed specifically for this deck, as seen in the subtle drawback they included. Testing says that you don't want to play more than two.
• Ankh of Mishra: I heard fetchlands aren't so hot when they cost 5 life. Second replacement for berserk in ultra-cheap builds because a single one played soon can do a whole lot of damage. Worth playing against landstill, zoo, loam decks, and in some cases against ANT, because 5-7 damage so early in the game can cause Ad Nauseam to fizzle.
• Wasteland: As long as you don't take out quirions nor lands. Some testers use this instead of discard or pump. I took them out only because sometimes they are useless and I can't afford that.
• Nostalgic Dreams: Good as a two-of in decks that can't run Dark Confidant.
• Swords to Plowshares: The main reason to splash white in this deck, but creatures shouldn't be a concern for you if you are playing this right.
• Maelstrom Pulse: Instead of Thoughtseize/Duress/Gleeful Sabotage.
• Hidden Gibbons: Pumps goyf, good 1st turn drop, reverent silence doesn't destroy it. Can replace discard or leeches.
• Null Rod: Shut downs equipment, moxes, LED, charbelcher, scepters, vials, sensei's divining tops, and other dangerous cards.
• Putrid Leech: Strong in the early game, can be used if you get short of beaters or don't want to play Mongrel.
• Vines of Vastwood/Might of Old Krosa: Playing at least 2 copies of any of these will accelerate up to 0.7 turns.

Cards better to avoid: Concordant Crossroads, Root Maze, Vexing Shusher, Carpet of Flowers, Regrowth, Forgotten Lore, Birds of Paradise, Chrome Mox, Rain of Gore.

Matchups and Sideboard planning:

Be cautious when making changes to the current decklist, because if it works at all is due to Black Magic, and seemingly innocuous changes can devastate its perfomance (something I discovered the hard way). I'm assuming both opponent's deck and mine are standard builds, because otherwise results may vary.

Also, siding cards in is an NP Problem because there's no actual room to make changes. Here's a quick list of cards that you shouldn't take ever from the main deck:

• Lands: Even though just one land doesn't slow the deck too much, it doubles the mulliganing required.
• Quirion Ranger: Not even one, doubles mulligans and the deck will be slowed by half a turn.
• ESG/Lotus: I took just one out, then got 20 straight games without them in the opening hand, slowing the deck by a full turn. Has to be something with the MWS shuffler, so beware!
• more than two beaters: If you take too many, you can end without targets for berserk (actually you need one more, but there's no room)
• any life-gaining card: Slows the deck a lot because you don't reach critical mass.

Empirical results show that 61 cards work as good or even better than 60. My explanation is that reducing the chances of drawing any set (life gain, combo piece, land, beater, pump) by 1/61 is much better than lessening the chances of drawing one specific part by 1/8 or 1/12. 62 cards was not as succesful in playtesting, though. Some suggestions for a 61th card decklist include: 4th Berserk, 4th Dark Confidant, 2 Sensei's Divining Top (taking out one chalice or reverent silence), 2 Vines/Might of Old Krosa (taking out 1 chalice of the void).

Specific matchups and sideboard explanations

Enjoy!

Succesful Decklists:
1. Stompy False Cure by Thomas (3rd Place 18 Oct 2009)

What happens if your opponent plays Force of Will?

If a Kavu Predator does pass through, there's no Force of Will that can save you. Countering Kavu Predator/Wild Mongrel is good only if the opponent doesn't have another in his/her hand. Countering a Berserk on a Mongrel can save your life because it eats the hand. Force of Will to False Cure slows the deck one turn.

Countering the life-gaining spells is useless, and it's only attempted by those that don't know the deck and let False Cure to resolve.

StP on berserked Kavu Predator, GG (cause you use False Cure).
This deck seems fragile to say the least.
The spells that gives the opponent life might be uncounterable but the spells that wins you the game (false cure and kavu predator) can just be countered and then you can do nothing about it as you have no alternative win plan, no protection and no tutors.

StP? Do you mean Swords to Plowshares? Please don't use shortcuts when writing.

Swords to Plowshares is a good way to defend yourself from some of the kills. In fact, the deck can also pack Swords to Plowshares itself. I don't do it, because the meta doesn't require it, but it's good against the mirror. However, Swords to Plowshares doesn't offer entire protection.

For example:
False Cure + False Cure + Reverent Silence = 18 life loss for you. GG.

Red splashes for fling avoids Swords to Plowshares, Sylvan Safekeeper also says GG to swords. The decklist posted don't have them because, honestly, I haven't find swords scary enough to include them yet.

Saying that this deck is fragile is blind talking. The very reason this deck runs no tutors it's because it's very consistent. Discard hurts it a lot, but the compost post-board gives you the advantage.

The spells that win me the game can be countered, but I run 16, so good luck countering all of them. And it doesn't run tutors because it has so many alternatives to win the game that it doesn't need them. At worst, you have a Mr. Stompy with Mongrels and Mights of Old Krosa (can be changed by Rancor if you want a slower pace, but higher resiliency)

The deck is beatable, but please don't pre-judge it without having tested it. :-)

You seem to have misunderstood what I meant. I was talking about your opponent casting Swords to Plowshares on your Kavu when you're attacking. Because not only does it set you back, my major concern is that if you've cast a False Cure, since it also affects you, the lifeloss from Swords will leave you very short on life.

No, I have perfectly understood you. Of course, Swords to Plowshares can damage you a lot if you have played False Cure and have a Predator. Ouch.

The deck started with Sylvan Safekeeper and Fling for that reason.

But after testing real matches, I discovered that the scenario didn't came up often, and at worst you are throwing an "Ordago" (a term from a Spanish card game that means that you decide the result of the entire game to a single play, and hope the opponent doesn't have a better hand). So I took them out.

The problem with Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares, is that against this deck you cannot afford to mulliganing onto them as much as you could do against another kind of combo. Good news is that this deck can't afford to mulliganing too much or losses stream. When it had 9 lands, I had to play some times with no lands, hoping to draw one on the next 2 turns (it's still very dangerous even with that kind of starting hands, don't worry)

Edit: I'm going to test Xantid Swarm in the deck to see how they perform against control. Maybe they'll work better than Night's Whispers.

I think your deck relies to much on getting the combo to work. I mean you do not have to win the turn you drop the life gain. You could cast kavu with any of the life gain and you have a large creature that has trample turn one or two. Than why not run a slightly larger creature base to finish them off. Anywyas if your worried about counters leyline of lifeforce is a very good choice.

Wish I would have seen this post last night. Well thats all I have to say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cane818

I think your deck relies to much on getting the combo to work. I mean you do not have to win the turn you drop the life gain. You could cast kavu with any of the life gain and you have a large creature that has trample turn one or two. Than why not run a slightly larger creature base to finish them off. Anywyas if your worried about counters leyline of lifeforce is a very good choice.

Wish I would have seen this post last night. Well thats all I have to say.

---

You're right, my friend. This deck doesn't need to kill so fast and in a single turn, it's only that it can. It's fast against decks that need fast answers, but you can kill slowly against decks with permission.

Leyline of Lifeforce isn't a good choice in this deck for many reasons.
1. The deck has a hard time reaching 4 mana.
2. The deck cannot afford to mulligan very often.
3. Reverent silence destroys the leyline.
4. It moves away the focus of the counterspells to other critical spells like land grant.

With the first decklist you'll have a bit of trouble against Threshold. However, with Xantid Swarm instead of Night's whisper it becomes a lot easier, without losing deck resiliency (Night's whisper was there to recover against counterspells, anyways).

Thank you for your comments. :wink:

Why exactly are you running Land Grant? It gives your opponent information and makes your land drops counterable all for what? Minor deck thinning? It is not like Belcher where you actually gain something for running less lands. Unless I'm missing some hidden synergy, I really think the Land Grants should just be fetches/basics (of which you have none right now).

You are right. Right now, land grant only serves as minor deck thinning.
The present decklist runs four because I'm constantly testing different things that have sinergy with Land Grant, of which there are currently none on that decklist for lack of space:

1.- A single martyr of spores to catch with summoner's pact on the rare cases where a pump spell will win you the game.
2.- A single forest to get past blood moon (Your free spells only work if you have a forest in play). Fetchlands don't work here, but I'm testing if hardcasting Reverent Silence can work.
3.- Bounty of the Hunt. Currently replaced by night's whispers or Xantid swarm.

If your deck doesn't play any of these, you can reduce the number of land grants.

Edit: I'm the only one that has constant crashes with MWS? People will start wondering why I'm quitting when in a losing position.

leyline of the void is a good side board card not main deck.
I tried running a few of the wild mongrols they are a good chioce.
I get around the counters in my deck by playing duress and black mail.
And u get to cast leyline for free so who cares about mana cost.
and when u play reverent silence you should already have a
creature ready to kill.

I played against a deck like this once it was fairly beast. If there were any cards I would suggest to the List it would be maybe something to stabilize and end game/control...Cursed Scroll?

Truthfully I have been running this deck for a while non stop. I just don't think it can get to be a teir 1 deck. I mean yes it can pill some amazing wins that happen fairly often, but i always end up getting horrible hands full of the the life cards and no kill card. I think the "combo" just takes up to many card slots.

@Cane818:
Leyline of the Void is a good sideboard card. I thought you meant Leyline of Lifeforce, which isn't very good in this deck.
About it cannot being a tier 1 deck, which decklist are you playing? I could try to help you against some matches.

@Roodmistah:
I've testing Xantid Swarm and it works quite a bit against control. The real problem for this decklist are Scepterchant decks because all the artifact hate is in the sideboard. Cursed Scroll won't be of help in that scenario, but cards like Stormbind might work. All you need to do for a red splash is to change 2 fetchlands for 1 Taiga and 1 Badlands.
All I've tried at the moment are price of progress and Ankh of Mishra. Tell me if you get better luck with your changes.

Quirion Ranger and Summoner's Pact both seem rather sub-par. I suppose Ranger might be needed since you are cripplingly vulnerable to Wasteland (though running 1x Forest would probably help with that a good deal) and Pact is terribly situational.

Well this is my deck list and it runs very well.

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Wild Mongrel

Spells
4 Reverent Silence
4 Invigorate
4 False Cure
4 Land Grant
4 Blackmail
4 Duress
4 Berserk
4 Lotus Petal

Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Crumble
3 Putrefy
2 Root Maze
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Lifeforce

If you have any question ask.

Don't you get mana screwed with no Elvish Spirit Guide and no Quirion Ranger? I run 10 lands and 4 land grants (I'm testing 12 lands and 2 land grants now) because Quirion Ranger allowed me to reduce the number.

I remember my deck became a lot better after I included them.

Another thing I see is that Berserk is not so hot without another pump spell other than the invigorates. I've tried many times to cut the Might of Old Krosa, but they always return to my deck.

I don't like the Blackmails. I suggest you to try another card in its place. If your deck is not as suicide as mine, artifacts and equipment start being dangerous enough to warrant having something against them maindecked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cane818

Well this is my deck list and it runs very well.

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Wild Mongrel

Spells
4 Reverent Silence
4 Invigorate
4 False Cure
4 Land Grant
4 Blackmail
4 Duress
4 Berserk
4 Lotus Petal

Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Crumble
3 Putrefy
2 Root Maze
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Lifeforce

If you have any question ask.

---

Umezawa's Jitte perhaps? You could cut the Root Mazes and something else I feel as though this would strengthen most of your matchups.

i might try the jitte in sideboard over root maze, but the jitte is a little slow i need to use 1 turn to drop it one turn to play a creature and one turn to equip so i don't think it would be the best option. I hardly ever get mana screwed. I don't like blackmail myself I think I will try cabal therapy I can sac the cutters or dark confident, funeral charm might also help this deck it gives me a pump spell and a discard ability, ohh and swampwalk. Elvish spirt guide sounds interesting but i don't think ill play quirion ranger, I have not had much trouble with wasteland.

Also against blue counter decks leyline of lifeforce wins me games I don't know how you cant play it its a free drop in hand. Than you don't have to worry about casting kavu and its practically a win.

edit: i could run the spirit guides over root maze to speed up my deck against combo and such.

So i changed it to


Lands
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Wild Mongrel

Spells
4 Reverent Silence
4 Invigorate
4 False Cure
4 Land Grant
4 Duress
4 Berserk
4 Lotus Petal
4 Funeral Charm

Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Crumble
3 Putrefy
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Lifeforce
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

Quirion Ranger is not there just for the wasteland (though it's very good against it). It's there because it's "mana acceleration" when you miss a land drop, and against aggro, it untaps your mongrels/kavu/tarmogoyfs to stop them from racing.

Edit: Quirion ranger also pumps mongrel, and allows you not to play lands from your hand if you don't have to (saving them from mongrel, protecting them from armageddon, and also good for bluffing)

I cannot run Leyline of Lifeforce in my sideboard because I cannot afford to mulligan until I draw it unlike you, that have confidant. I run Xantid Swarm maindeck against control, which seem to work. At worst, they attract counters and swords (so it's basically a duress that can be pumped).
But assuming I could run it, I should cut cards from my sideboard. Which ones to cut?

You know what why not explain what the cards in your sideboard are good for what match ups do you side them in against. Right now I do not know why you play half of the cards in your sideboard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cane818

You know what why not explain what the cards in your sideboard are good for what match ups do you side them in against. Right now I do not know why you play half of the cards in your sideboard

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You're right about that. I'll try to write them later. Right now I'm a bit busy. :wink:

Specific Matchup Analysis and Sideboard suggestions

Really easy matchups:
Enchantress, Goblins, Merfolks, Burn, Armageddon Stax, Solidarity, Aggro Loam, elves, Pox

All these decks have a much slower clock than you, pack the wrong kind of disruption, if at all, and their creatures are too weak against you. In some cases, cards that you already run maindeck totally crush their strategy. The best strategy against those decks is to start fast with Kavu and cutters or Mongrel, then play as offensively as you can and just let your deck flow. No sideboard required, but I post the choices anyways:

• Burn, elves, Solidarity: -3 thoughtseize +3 chalice of the void
• Enchantress, Stax: -2 might of old krosa +2 gleeful sabotage
• Pox: -3 thoughtseize -1 False cure +4 compost
• Aggro Loam: Nothing. If you really worry about this matchup, put Ankh of Mishra on the sideboard. Otherwise same as Goblins.
• Merfolks: -2 putrid leech -1 false cure +3 Choke
• Goblins: Also Nothing. If forced to, do -3 thoughtseize +3 Pithing Needle

Not as easy matchups:

(to be filled up later)

Hard matchups:

Canadian Thresh
Canadian Thresh is "hard" in the sense that it packs the correct disruption against this deck both main and in the sideboard. However, such cards are almost always 1-1 trades and those benefit you, and your sideboard is definitely stronger (if it resolves). Because both decks spend the early game countering each other, games tend to drag enough for Tarmogoyf to become better than leech. If you expect a lot of Canadian Thresh you have to consider running Relic of Progenitus or Tarmogoyfs yourself. Anyways, the decks are more or less 50/50 the first round. The cards you should worry about are tarmogoyf, spell snare, daze, and submerge. If you have to, use Berserk as removal against goyf or on one of your blockers.

Duress/Thoughtseize are poor cards maindeck because you lose life and/or the initiative, and there are too many useful/redundant spells in their hand to make a difference. I'm still not sure about what other cards to take out, but you definitely don't want to side out the mights of old krosa. Chalice at 1 and Chokes are really devastating against thresh, and because you don't run artifacts nor enchantments maindeck, the opponent probably won't have any card to remove them if they land. Just extend your hand to him and ask if there's need to keep playing.

-3 thoughtseize -1 windswepth heath? -2 putrid leech? +3 chalice of the void (set to 1) +3 choke.
if you play Tarmogoys instead of leech, that would be -1 mongrel -1 false cure (spell snare target)

Card by Card Explanation:
Compost - Essential against discard and dredge, as the only thing this deck needs to win is drawing cards. Playing one first turn against Ichorid this is basically an autowin.
Chalice of the Void - Keeps combo in check, protects against discard, swords to plowshares and spell snare, and makes a lot of cards in the opponent's deck worthless, specially against burn, zoo and threshold decks. Set at 1 makes your berserks uncastable, but keep them in hand just in case the opponent destroys the chalice and wins teh prize.
Pithing Needle - Keeps other kind of combo in check, and useful when nothing else qualifies. Stops wasteland, survival, kiki jiki, dread return and other ugly cards.
Gleeful Sabotage - Cheaper than Krosan Grip, it also has the potential of getting 2-for-1. Blue decks like Dreadstill have to counter it twice, and the Conspire copy evades Chalice of the Void or Counterbalance. All in all very useful.
Choke - Back to Basics against blue and thresh opponents. The tempo swing is usually too high for them to recover and thus lose soon thereafter.

I believe null rod isn't need in this deck. Your deck is fast enough to not worry about artifacts that you listed, just make it 4 crumbles which is a great card for this deck.

I love what your doing with Tarmogoyf and Xantid Swarm. I tried Xantid storm and they worked well in my deck I just have them in my SB instead of main deck.

I personally do not see the point to chalice in this deck. The only ting you can really set it to is 1 or 2, and you never want to set it to 2. I guess i just never worry about castign cost 1 spells. I know it stops the most hated swords to plow, but just never make your kavu have more power than you have life when you play fulse cure. Problem solved. Also I do not have problems with thresh decks I just side leyline of the void, and thresh still is not much of a problem.

About compost. I know discard hurts this kill combo. My version is a little more resilient to discard than yours. But i still up my odds aginst all black decks by adding 3 more combo pieces. Refreshing rain great card burn and life gain lol.

Iam still testing so stuff out. But have you tried Funeral Charm over might of old krosa it comes in handy.

Iam going to try adding the one forest to the deck I think it will help a bit.

Also Maze of ith sucks for this deck.

I tested Refreshing Rain, but black runs both discard and cheap creature removal, which leave me without the cards with which Refreshing Rain comboes. Compost is a threat by itself, and a very strong one. It also draws you a lot of cards, so you find your combo pieces sooner.

Chalice of the Void is there against superfast combo decks that kill you turns 1-2. A Chalice for 0 or 1 is required to slow them down. It happens that a chalice set up to 1 is also good against threshold. I've yet to test them against goblins and counterslivers.

Null rod is working so good in testing, that I plan to include more. I discovered that it stops mana abilities from moxes and artifact lands, and time vault combos. It cannot be replaced by Crumble, because it doesn't stop charbelcher. I'm so happy with it, I'm considering promoting it to maindeck.

I've tested Funeral Charm, but it doesn't work as good as might of old krosa/rancor. Maybe if I had more discard, or the meta had more 1/1 creatures that had to be killed...

Fortunately, I don't find Maze of Ith very scary. If it's so good against your build, you could test adding "1xTaiga 1xbadlands" to the manabase that allows you to run 2 or 3 Fling (red berserks 5-6). In my goldfishes, that mana base lost me/slowed me 2% of the games, but you seem to run more lands and more draw, so you might want to give it a try.

I am trying out the compost. I am running two rain and two compost. In side board. My discard helps some aginst black so I don't mind black discard as much. I know fling might hurt. But I played a land deck where I lost 2 won 1. He drew maze of ith in both starting hands. It just made me a sad panda.

Iam also trying 2 elvish spirit guides. They are okay the first turn crumble is nice. Though I all ways seem to need black mana not green when I draw it.

I tried running the 1 forest it seemed to work ok, i still dotn have to much trooble with wasteland i seem to get around it.

I decided to run a forest in the sideboard over main deck.
Its worked really well. I cut the side down to 2 Deeds.

I've been playing this deck these weeks on MWS non-stop, and it's amazing.

Latest changes:
Swapped Tarmogoyf and Xantid Swarm. Tarmogoyf raises the number of green beaters from 8 to 11, and they are also good against control. Xantid swarm is still amazing, but with tarmogoyf the deck can pass better through removal and counters.
When needed, Xantid swarm replaces 1 Land Grant and 2 Summoner's Pact (too risky if the opponent runs counters).

Changes to the Sideboard:
3 Compost (they were 4)
3 Null rod (they were 2)

I think this decklist, as it stands now, is optimal and competitive enough to be moved to the Open Forum. Do I need to add anything else to the thread before the move?

How about how it dose against different top tier decks.


I can't think of any additions or changes to the "base" deck.
Everyones meta is different.

I have had great success with this deck as well.
good luck.

Nice deck. Swapping Tarmogoyf and Swarm is definitely the correct decision.

However I think there is one card that should certainly be added: Grove of the Burnwillows!

grove of the burn willows isnt very good I do not need red mana and its not a forest.

This is the decklist Xavi Fugaroles took 2nd place at the "4 Sea Drakes at Pendrell Vale" tournament. Future Sight wasn't legal then (decklist taken from Germagic.de):

5 Forest
4 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp

4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Mire Boa
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Kavu Predator
4 Dark Confidant

2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Invigorate
2 False Cure
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Putrefy
4 Duress

Sideboard:
2 Xantid Swarm
4 Extirpate
2 Sudden Spoiling
3 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague

I've tested changing Might of Old Krosa for Rancors, but even though it makes the deck more consistent against goblins (Mongrel and Goyf can no longer be chump blocked), it slows too much its clock against other matchups.

In the sideboard, I'm testing -3 crumble, and put instead +1 Compost and +2 Seeds of Innocence. Seeds of Innocence seems better against Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void, but I don't know how well will they do against Scepter and Charbelcher.

Some tricks about how to play the deck:

1. Don't play a land if you don't have to. If you have Quirion Ranger, it's better to tap the land, return it to your hand, and play it again. The deck doesn't need more than 2 mana most of time. Let the opponent guess wheter you are manascrewed, or you are just keeping lands in your hand for Mongrel.

2. The above play is only worse when you really need 3 mana next turn (False Cure + Berserk). So play one turn in advance.

3. Going second is as good, if not better, than going first. The exception being against discard decks and combo decks that go off sooner than you.

4. First turn Kavu Predator has to be followed with a Skyshroud Cutter if the opponent plays black to avoid Pox/Innocent Blood/Diabolic Edict. 1st turn Reverent Silence is good too if the opponent runs red. Against blue/white it's better to wait before playing those cards.

5. First turn Mongrel is good against red, green and white. It's worse against Goblins.

6. First turn Quirion Ranger is good against goblins, prison and zoo decks alike. It stabilizes the deck for a turn 3-4 kill.

7. The trick "Tap mana --> Quirion ranger returning a land --> Discard land + rest of hand to Mongrel --> Berserk" has given me many games.

8. Summoner's Pact searchs for Skyshroud Cutter for +5 life, or for Elvish Spirit Guide to pay for Berserk/Crumble/Might of Old Krosa. If you really need an extra black mana to cast False Cure and win, you can do it this way: Summoner's Pact for Spirit Guide --> Remove Spirit Guide to Cast Quirion Ranger --> Tap land/Return land/play it again.

9. The life gaining part is a cost. It cannot be countered except by stifle. It doesn't target, either. Can be used through a Nether Void to pump Predators.

10. Unless you have a weak hand or playing against combo/lock, try to delay playing thoughtseize or duress until your second/third turn. That way, you still get your early pressure set up, and most cards you want to target will still be in your opponent's hand. That's because they usually cost 3cc or more, are horrible plays if you control the board, or they would have been protected by the brainstorm he just spent to search for Force of Will.

11. Many decks started putting Submerge in their sideboards. Here's a trick that you can use against them. First turn play a Kavu or Quirion Ranger. If the opponent has Submerge, he will let the creature resolve, and he will also wait your attack/pump before using it. A big mistake! Next turn, cast the other half of the duo (that will likely also resolve) and then you play a cutter/reverent silence (plus Invigorates), then reply to them activating Quirion. The opponent might try to play Submerge then, but he will not be able to do so, because you don't control forests!!! There's no time window for him to reply, and he can't counter the life gain either, so he will be stuck with a giant monster he just helped create. :laugh:

Some examples of turn 2 kills of the deck:
I)
1. When going second, Land + ESG/Lotus petal to play Wild Mongrel.
2. Tap land for Might of Old Krosa + Invigorate, then land/esg/lotus petal/summoner's pact to pay for berserk, and discard the rest of your hand to mongrel in response for 24 trampling damage.

II)
1. Land + ESG/Lotus Petal --> Kavu Predator
2. Land/Lotus Petal for False Cure, play any two lifegaining spells, attack with predator.

III)
1. Land + ESG/Lotus Petal --> Mongrel/predator/Tarmogoyf
2. Invigorate + Land/lotus petal/ESG/Summoner's Pact --> 2 berserks (works with Might of Old krosa if there's another mana source)

IV)
1. Bayou/fetchland + Quirion Ranger
2. False Cure + 3 lifegaining spells. (some don't kill right now, but makes for an easy kill next turn)

V)
1. Land + ESG/Lotus Petal --> Kavu Predator
2. Invigorate + any other lifegaining spell + Berserk.

There are many more turn 2 kills, but these are the most common ones. There are more if the opponent helps by taking damage, and there are too many 3 turn kills to list here. Many 3 turn kills deal +30 trampling damage, which pass through any blockers the opponent could play second turn.

Forgot to ask whats the "final" deck look like for you.

Just a quick question did you ever try scryb ranger.

Hi. I haven't tested Scryb on this deck, but it was the card that gave me the idea of using Quirion Ranger here. Scryb Ranger is an amazing card, the problem is that it's a 2cc drop, and what the deck lacked was a good 1st turn drop (other than the Xantid). Another problems are that Scryb Ranger doesn't cut as many lands from the deck to improve the land/creature ratio, and that it makes the deck more vulnerable to Chalice of the Void and Engineered explosives (Tarmogoyf is already too much 2cc for my tastes, but is still there because it's outright better than any 3cc green beater).

I would suggest a 4x Quirion Ranger 2x Scryb Ranger configuration as long as you also run Birds of Paradise in the deck. This allows for plays like first turn birds, second turn scryb plus mongrel/goyf/kavu/false cure. Scryb doesn't clog in the hand that way and you can cut another land from the deck.

also a fun card a ran for a while was llanowar Augur.

I think tarmogoyf is an auto include in any green deck that wants to win by attacking. He's too good not to be used and is almost always bigger than a mongrel without the card disadvantage.

What you mean? Tarmogoyf is there. Are you saying that you're happy it is there? Otherwise I think I'll have to update the decklist on the first post.

I've been testing Duress in the deck, along with Birds of Paradise, Scryb Rangers, and such. I've not found these cards as good as the cards they replaced (1 land grant and 2 summoner's pact), so I'm sticking to my previous decklist. I'll try to write something tomorrow, and then ask a moderator to move the thread to the Open Forum.