[Deck] Food Chain - Evoke Abuse

even though the banning of goblin recruiter in legacy was a bad one for the food chain goblins deck, can food chain still be done? Recently, the evoke mechanic from lorwyn has shown some popularity in standard. Why not abuse the ability to a maximum? Using it with food chain not only nets you the effect, but also gives you mana if you eat it in response to its own sacrifical. And yes, you can pay evoke costs with the mana you get from food chain. I'm just saying this to avoid these questions :P anyway, i built a decklist:

the combo piece:
4 Food Chain

utility:
3 Shriekmaw
4 Mulldrifter
4 Fierce Empath
2 Æthersnipe
4 wall of blossoms

tutors:
4 drift of phantasms

accel:
4 chrome mox

the kill:
1 grozoth
1 myojin of life's web
1 nullstone gargoyle
1 blazing archon
1 spirit of the night

minor protection/hosing:
4 thorn of amethyst

lands:
2 ancient tomb
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
4 bayou
4 wooded foothills

that would be sixty cards. I'll sum up the very wierd card choices:

food chain - a guy on another forum said that this is just a bad version of aluren. Hmm, he's maybe right... however, if this can be developed in a good way, I'm sure it can be nearly as good! The advantage is, that nearly everyone isn't expecting the deck, I would not say it's truly rogue, but still.

shriekmaw: provides as card advantage as well as incredible acceleration if you got the food chain.

mulldrifter - insane with food chain, or just plain good. Draws into the needed cards.

fierce empath - needed to get the grozoth, which fetches the myojin and the rest of the kill that gives me a lethal army on the next turn. Haven't found a good way to give the creatures haste, maybe Flame-Kin Zealot, but that one cannot be fetched either with drift of phantasms or fierce empath.

æthersnipe: pretty good as a fetching with fierce empath as it serves for seven mana. You also get to bounce a dangerous goyf, so that's just good.

wall of blossoms: blocks nasty critters, and draws. That's awesome.

drift of phantasms: needed to get the fierce empath and the food chain.

chrome mox: dropping food chain a turn earlier is very good play. On the other hand, it's just mana if you need one to get the grozoth into play.

the kill creatures: grozoth produces a mega tutor as well as a 9/9 body. the creature itself is prety pointless as food chain will eat it to play a myojin of life's web. Nullstone Gargoyle protects against a wrath which can be a lose condition, and blazing archon protects me from swarm as well as ichorid combo (I don't expect to win that matchup anyway, it's way too fast).

thorn of amethyst: as nearly every spell is a creature with some nifty ability, this can be good in delaying the opponent by at turn or two, if needed.

mana base: I honestly don't know if it's shaky or not, ancient omb can drop food chain one turn earlier, which can be important.

playing the deck: I haven't done that yet as I do not own all the needed cards. Else, it's about holding the line with some evoking and defenses until you draw the combo.

Going off (disadvantages): fierce empath is fetching a 9cc card, which is grozoth. The fierce empath removes for four mana, and from that point, It is important that I have an evoke creature in my hand. Using three of the four mana on an æthersnipe isn't enough, so I need at least two other creatures. I've been considering mournwhelk or faultgrinder instead to produce more mana. A bringer creature could also do, as food chain nets me mana of any color.

The why not section:

No protection??? - No, I'm not running enough blue cards to could consistently play a FoW, the only thing I can run is daze, and daze's not that good in turn 3. I'm thinking about venser, shaper savant or mystic snake.

No goyf??? - No, this deck simply don't uses the yard at all, so putting goyfs in MD is stupid due to the reliance on my opponent's yard.

Is this a good deck or does it suck? - Honestly, I don't know. I've been goldfishing a couple of times, and it consistently throws in all the 9cc creatures about turn 2-4. That's pretty good I think. So, any card suggestions or thoughts about the deck? Any feedback is very welcome!

-Peter

Ps. I also have another decklist that's built around storm spells, tell me if I should post it.

This is a REALLY interesting concept. For sheer mana production, it probably doesn't get better than Ingot Chewer.

Mournwelk is perfect for this deck. It is fetchable with Empath and generates card advantage. It turns a hand of Foodchain +Empath into 8 mana right off the bat, that way you need only 1 other creature to keep it going.

You could go off with just foodchain in play and Empath +Drift in hand if you could find a way to convert one blue mana to a green mana. Or you could simply use Mournwelk for 4 mana, make 8 green, cast Empath, sack for 4 blue, search for Grozoth and win. IMO, Mournwelk may just be better than Aethersnipe because it can disrupt your opponent while gaining card advantage. It also creates exactly enough mana to make it all work.

This deck seems like it might be viable, like any other combo deck it will be hard to play around counter magic. Mournwhelk should be included and Ingot chewer seems like a house in this deck.

Very interesting concept, although the list presented above seems horribly slow for a combo deck. I don't know if that a Grozoth "toolbox" is viable. These win conditions looks kinda slow and risky - Akroma-class win conditions (hard to kill) should be worth consideration (Tombstalker would be also interesting because he can be cast even without the combo, depending on the build).

I want to see better tutor cards like Survival or Living Wish to give the deck more consistency and flexibility.

Random side note not really related to the topic: While it doesn't combo with Food Chain, Fecundity is dead-sexy when combined with Evoke.

In before Zach Tartell.

Food Chain evoke... Not gonna lie, I'm giggling at the thought. Mox, Tomb, Food Chain, go. Land, evoke mulldrifter, sac into evoked Mournwelk, sac into Akroma. I'm getting all hot and bothered just thinking about it.

The idea for Akroma style win conditions is seconded, in addition to upping the Ancient Tomb count to four.

Some other creatures to consider:

Mesmeric Fiend: temporary disruption (can turn into permanent discard when played with Food Chain on the table)

Birds of Paradise: additional acceleration which can be fed to your Food Chain after being used

Primoridal Sage: Not exactly the best creature, but it could help you to keep the combo up because you're still playing the creatures.

Mystic Snake/Venser: potential protection - probably just win-more

Edit: On second thought, Living Wish should be pretty awesome here. Not only that it can provide you with all kinds of utility (evoke)/combo creatures from the board, it can also get you back removed creatures just to cast them again. Imagine something like this:
Evoke Mournwelk, Chain it, cast Wish (with non-Chain mana, of course), get Mournwelk, evoke and chain it again.

Evoke says "You may play this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it comes into play."

So let me get this right, you have a chance to respond to the Evoke sacrifice effect?

Can we get a ruling or something on that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

Evoke says "You may play this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it comes into play."

So let me get this right, you have a chance to respond to the Evoke sacrifice effect?

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This is correct. The Evoke trigger uses the stack (the "when" is essential here), so you have a chance to respond to it.

Phage the Untouchable + Inner Flame Acolyte might be your best bet if you want to win without passing the turn.

This is a really innovative idea. It can only get stronger as more Evoke cards are printed next set.

While I agree this is a neat interaction, one-card combo decks need to have a fallback plan.

So what exactly is this deck going to be doing if Food Chain is Maged/Extirpated/Duressed Away/Countered/You Don't Draw It?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

While I agree this is a neat interaction, one-card combo decks need to have a fallback plan.

So what exactly is this deck going to be doing if Food Chain is Maged/Extirpated/Duressed Away/Countered/You Don't Draw It?

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Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter are pretty decent cards on their own. In fact, most

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

While I agree this is a neat interaction, one-card combo decks need to have a fallback plan.

So what exactly is this deck going to be doing if Food Chain is Maged/Extirpated/Duressed Away/Countered/You Don't Draw It?

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If that happens your best bet is to beat face with Tombstalker Imo. Mournwelk is uncastable but Skriekmaw is a decent clock combined with Tombstalker.

I love Ancient Tomb since the ccs in this deck are 2U, 2G, 3B for the evokers and Food Chain. I also feel that the tutoring leaves a lot to be desired. The concept though is good and I look forward to playing with it.

Here is the version I like on paper:

4 Mournwelk
4 Mulldrifter
4 Skriekmaw
4 Empath
4 Wall of Blossoms

1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Sundering Titan
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

4 Food Chain
4 Drift of Fantasm

3 Thoughtseize
4 Duress


4 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills

SB:
3 Tombstalker
4 Animate Dead
1 Blazing Archon
4 Yixlid Jailer
3 Reaping the Graves?

Is this deck really better than the other options? I like how each card can be really good on its own.

Instead of/in addition to drift/wall of blossoms, raven familiar is sexy too.

22 lands is probably too many, and city of traitors should be included too.

Instead of duress/thoughtseize as disruption, what about chalice ? Chalice@1 and Akroma is not killable anymore. Chalice@2 is also very powerful in the metagame and it only cut you from the walls in which I am really not sure. In its place raven is really better. But I'm not convinced in drift of fantasm neither. What to consider then ?
Sawtooth Loon ? No, Court Hussar is probably the best.

2 Mournwelk
4 Mulldrifter
4 Skriekmaw
4 Empath
4 Raven Familiar (flashback is slow evoke)
4 Court Hussar (somehow the first evoke guy)

1 Darksteel Colossus (?)
1 Sundering Titan
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Crater Hellion (or Bogardan Hellkite or Thunder Dragon

4 Food Chain

4 Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void


4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 multicolored lands, probably 4*City of Brass, 4*Gemstone Mine and 2* tropical island

SB:
1 Tornado elemental
1 Petradon
4 Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Random Big Utility Creature

The problem with that list is that every time you don't draw Food Chain, you're playing a really godawful Chalice Aggro deck. There has to be some way to get Food Chains in hand or be awesome without them.

Yes but you have a huge digging power (12 creatures are digging at an average of 3 for 3CC). This needs some testing, but I'm not sure it's so long to get food chain in hand. Moreover you have 8 ways to earn yourself some time to find them (4*chalice+4*thorn/trini). I already love the deck on the paper but I need some testing for the consistency.

It looks strange but combo and trinisphere can be friends.

Edit : omg a creature-based green deck without tarmogoyf!

Does anybody else remember the Elgin-style Food Chain deck back in the day? Every creature was simply designed to find another creature, and you'd net one or two mana with each. Imperial Recruiter, Raven Familiar... I don't actually remember any of the others. It seems the deck thread has fallen to the Wayside (Remember Sideways Stories from Wayside High? Man, so good!) but the purpose of all this rambling is to say that that deck won with Maga. Which was hot.

You should probably look at the most badass creatures printed to play with, if mana isn't too bad. My mind immediately comes to the Myojins. Black or Blue Myojin look like a total beating. I'd most likely rather resolve a Myojin of some kind than actually stick an Akroma or Colossus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

Does anybody else remember the Elgin-style Food Chain deck back in the day? Every creature was simply designed to find another creature, and you'd net one or two mana with each. Imperial Recruiter, Raven Familiar... I don't actually remember any of the others. It seems the deck thread has fallen to the Wayside (Remember Sideways Stories from Wayside High? Man, so good!) but the purpose of all this rambling is to say that that deck won with Maga. Which was hot.

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That could be a great idea. The deck needs more combo-finish.
Beating with Akroma sucks.
How can we find that deck's list?

Clearly. The kills are so baaaad. I did some testing and it's awful to struggle to combo and then to finish with a weak body, even protected or untergettable. Plus the deck definitely needs Myojin of seeing winds.

If you want a maga kill though, you need a lot of mana producers and I don't get how you can gather 22 manas consistently.

Considering the deck's vulnerability to counterspells, there really should be some Xantid Swarms in the SB.

I've been testing a creature base of:

4 Mulldrifter
3 Shriekmaw
4 Fierce Empath
2 Mournwhelk
1 Aethersnipe
2 Blue Myojin
1 Black Myojin
1 Maga
4 Raven Familiar
2 Court Hussar

and I'm pretty happy with it. Wall of Blossoms might be better than familiars or hussars, but I don't think so. Digging is important when going off, so I like these over just drawing a card, though Wall provides a body against aggro, and can be easily played out before you combo off, providing mana the turn you drop Food Chain.

It's been surprisingly easy to ramp up enough mana to drop myojins, and from there it's no problem at all to drop a huge maga and just win.

I'd like to find space for some kind of tutoring engine other than Drift of Phantasms or (what I'm using now) Sensei's Divining Top.

Maybe something like Merchant Scroll + Intuition or some such. That'd also give you an engine for finding FoW's and such to protect the combo, so might be worth a shot.

It won't work with evoke, but it's not a big stretch to have a deck run Aluren and Food Chain as alternative engines combined with fetch creatures like Imperial Recruiter and such. Due to casting cost, Alluren isn't all that great with Evoke creatures.

Since the Evoke mechanic is tied to the elemental creature type, Mana Echoes might have potential as an alternative mana production engine, although that adds red, and basically nixes most of the tutors/draw options that were listed.

A little more goldfishing has shown:

Fierce Empath + expensive singletons is good. Really good. Singleton Aethersnipe is also good, because it's tutorable bounce and mana production due to it's evoke.

Some stuff that can be tutored off of Empath:

Bogardan Hellkite
Draining Whelk
Myojins
Platinum Angel
etc.

I really want to find space for Pact of Negation in this deck, along with more acceleration like Chrome Mox and Elvish Spirit Guide. I'll try to post a list later this week, but I need to do some more work on it first.

Last thought:

Glimpse of Nature? I think it's a little too difficult to make sure you don't deck yourself, and blue myojin has been doing amazing things for me, especially cause you can tutor for it.

Red Akroma has to be in this deck. She can't be countered and is immune to swords, which are two of the biggest stumbling blocks that I imagine this deck would have.

If you include Fierce Empaths, you can use one Myojin of Cleansing Fire, Night's Reach, and Infinite Rage to clear the board and beat with a 7/4 to win in three turns. The Cleansing Fire may be superfluous against creature light decks as may the Night's Reach altogether.

Night's Reach is good, but may be superfluous in the face of multiple Mournwhelks. Cleansing Fire and Infinite Rage are definitely superfluous. If you have enough to cast them, you have enough to cast maga and just win.

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Originally Posted by 94teen

Night's Reach is good, but may be superfluous in the face of multiple Mournwhelks. Cleansing Fire and Infinite Rage are definitely superfluous. If you have enough to cast them, you have enough to cast maga and just win.

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Night's Reach stops any disruption in their hands, but Mournwelks are more versatile. Cleansing Fire is a stepping stone up to Infinite Rage and it wipes away creatures, clearing the path and stopping them from winning. Infinite Rage stops removal, when combined with Night's Reach [or several Mournwelks], it forces them to topdeck both removal and mana within three turns.

Maga can outright win you the game. If you can't reach up to of twenty three mana, he can be removed [with the diminished hand of your opponent] or blocked and stalled, allowing your opponent the time to win\remove him.

That's true. Because of that it depends on how much mana this deck can produce. I've typically had no problems reaching that kind of mana, but I haven't played anything with a serious disruption package (nothing more than...say...4 FoW, 4 Stifle). Based on my testing, Maga is superior by a long shot, but it could be easier to do myojins under heavy disruption.

// Lands
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [A] Bayou
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
3 [SC] Fierce Empath
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
4 [DIS] Court Hussar
2 [RAV] Grozoth
1 [CHK] Myojin of Life's Web
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
4 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend
1 [LRW] AEthersnipe

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
2 [MR] Chrome Mox


Once you get a food chain and start doing your thing you just need 2 imperial recruiter or 1 recruiter + fierce empath/grozoth to win and you have plenty of critters to do this. The real problem with this version is that there's no Food Chain tutor, just slow draw-critters. There's little protection too, but the combo rarely fizzles.

Draw/Tutor Creatures : 20
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Mulldrifter
4 Empath
4 Raven Familiar (flashback is slow evoke)
4 Court Hussar (somehow the first evoke guy)

Utility creatures : 4
1 White Myojin (wrath)
1 Red Myojin (armag+kill)
1 Blue Myojin (intensive draw)
1 Mournwhelk (mana producing + discard)

Food + Dirupt : 12
4 Food Chain
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

Mana 24 :
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

SB:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid is almost unwinnable without it)
4 Indrik Stomphowler
3 Krosan Grip

One should notice that with food chain in play :
- 3 manas + recruiter in hand = wrath possible (recruiter for recruiter for recruiter for recruiter for fierce empath for white myojin : 3-3+4-3+4-3+4-3+4-3+4=8)
- 3 manas + recruiter in hand + fierce empath = discard 2 + any big creature possibly played. (recruiter for fierce empath for mournwhelk + fierce empath for 10CC myojin : 3-3+4-3+4-4+8-3+4=10)
- usually 2 3CC drawers = gg too (I mean by gg wrath + armag played with at least a 4/6 and a 7/4 in play).

Well the problem is really to find and to play food chain.

That's a sweet concept, but it brings all associated problems of strategies depending on a single card to work.

Enlightned Tutor is legal in Legacy. Is there a chance to play a 5c manabase to fetch it turn 1 and then play it on turn 2 with tombs?

Other thing that just occured me is that Priest of Gix has been "fixed" back.
It adds 6 for 3. Not a great deal compared with Evoke guys, but still an option.

Why did you cut Drift of Phantasms? It looks like the best tutor for Food Chain. And when you have one you can cast it to get some extra mana.

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Originally Posted by Elfrago

Why did you cut Drift of Phantasms? It looks like the best tutor for Food Chain. And when you have one you can cast it to get some extra mana.

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The problem is that it's 1UU (not tomb/traitors compliant) and that it cannot use the food chain mana to tutor.

About enlightened tutor, I prefer to stall my opponent with chalice and trinisphere and wasteland and dig my deck with my combo creatures.

some interesting things I gathered while toying around with Food Chain:



- Skyshroud Cutter gives 5 mana while costing 0 mana (you just need a forest in play)

- The Bringers give 10 mana while costing 5

- Panglacial Wurm can be played and sacced to up the mana count while using a Recruiter or Empath

- Yuo can create a chain of: 4 Imperial Recuiter then 4 Goblin Matron and 4 Panglacial Wurm then 4 Goblin Embermage. It's just a stupid trick to get loads of mana. When you have a Cutter in play and play Food Chain you end up with 21 mana (on turn 2). I don't think the idea has any relevance ;)

- Summoner's Pact is a nice tutor for Empath

- Iname as One is a nice tutor for the Myojin's

- I think the base of a Food Chain Deck should be:

20 - 24 lands (incl. City, Tomb)
4 Pact of Negation
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Food Chain

now the rest has to be the most efficient creaturebase
The turn to go off should be mostly turn 2

Also adding to Moczoc, Peregrine Drake can be fetched off of Recruiter and gives you both chain and regular mana.

Isnt duress/ thoughtseize better than pact as proactive defense?

With all this playing creatures and mana production, what is stopping the deck from running a non-creature based win? Mabey some kind of storm combo? Just something to think about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GiantGrowth

With all this playing creatures and mana production, what is stopping the deck from running a non-creature based win? Mabey some kind of storm combo? Just something to think about.

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Becuase you can only cast creatures off of Food Chain mana.

a singleton composite golem would give -mana advantage if you sac it and +1 mana advantage if food chain eats it. If you sac it to get WUBRG, you can use the RG to play quirion sentinel to get WUBB, which is enough for a tendrils. However, finding two cards where only one of them are fetchable with imperial recruiter while the other one is only fetchable with fierce empath. That gives some trouble. Of course, you can just play coal stoker and kill with a grapeshot. But that requires twenty spells played to kill, AND the coal stoker. Cloud of Faeries can also be used. There is just so many possibilities. The four (which I can thing about so far) problems/questions are:
1. the most important: how do we tutor up the food chain?
2. how do we protect the combo consistently?
3. which kill is the most consistent?
4. should the deck have some aggro backup like cephalid breakfast? If just goyf was synergestic with the rest of the deck...
5. how do we get a fast and consistent clock? The ancient tomb as well as chrome mox accel may be a good idea.

Tendrils would be a nice addition, even if the deck don't manage to get the storm count of 10, it can at least get the red myojin and tendrils to get a faster clock and protect itself against stormcombo and aggro.