[CaNGD - Finalist] TEC - The EPIC Control

My SCG Article unveiling this deck can be found here. As I took the time to write it for the site, I'd appreciate if you checked it out as far as the development and history of the deck goes. I'l touch on it, but I don't plan to write another six pages on it.

Basically, this deck is the result of a ton of testing with Lorwyn, a love of cards that draw cards and ones that play well with doing so, an obsession with control, and a hatred that burns with the fury of a thousand suns for the Landstill manabase.

Late in 2007, Ray Robillard held TMLO3. At this event, two important things occurred. First, I found myself single, and with it, found myself with plenty of time to test new decks and strategies. Second, I was paired round two with Dave Gearhart, who was testing a new aggro-control deck using CounterTop and Hoofprints of the Stag. While Dave's list was interesting, I think it left a lot to be desired. He used 4 Hoofprints in the main, which I felt was too many. He ran clunky card advantage spells like Fact or Fiction, and ran too many cantrips. He ran Daze. All of these are card choices I would probably have reconsidered, however I must give credit to him as the person who inspired me to use Hoofprints in control.

Once I saw how good the card was, I discussed it with Di, and we arrived at the point I discussed in the article. For reference, here is the decklist (Now, with sideboard!)

TEC - The EPIC Control

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterbalance
3x Meditate / Thirst for Knowledge
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Wrath of God
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Jace Belaren
2x Hoofprints of the Stag
3x Vedalken Shackles
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Academy Ruins

SIDE
3x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip
3x Decree of Justice
2x Pithing Needle
2x Humility
2x COP: Red

Alternative Sideboard in a Goblin metagame:
3x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
3x Humility
3x Engineered Plague


Matchup Analysis -

Goblins:
Game 1 can be tricky, especially on the Draw. As with most decks, you hate to see the nuts Lackey draw, but you do have 8 ways to deal with it on the play, and another 4 on the draw, plus Brainstorm/Top. Counterbalance is actually pretty solid against them, if you keep Vial off the table. Your best threat game 1 is Goyf, but games 2 and three I usually side them out and focus on winning with Humility/Plague plus Jace, who is extremely effective. Watch out for Wort, she's a bitch. Overall, I think this matchup is more in your favor than it is for Landstill, as you have a more robust manabase, and access to Tarmogoyf. It's not overwhelmingly in your favor, but control is never really that good at dealing with Goblins, no matter what anyone else tells you. It wasn't the best deck in the format for two years for nothing.

Landstill:
Depends on the build. If you're playing against the 4c list without Wasteland or Decree, then have fun kicking their teeth in with Jace. Nice deck, nub. If it's more traditional white based Landstill, their ability to operate under a Standstill is an issue. Game 1, you need to decide when the best time to break a Standstill is. Early game, that's usually now. Remember that their deck is full of an asston of cards that do nothing to you, like Wrath or StP. They have a better chance of drawing irrelevant spells than relevant, so play that to your advantage. CounterTop is actually solid vs. them with your deck, as you can shut them down with it much more readily than Thresh can. Games two and three (if you get there), they need to decide if you have Decree or not, and sometimes it just bites them in the ass.

Threshold:
You dominate them. I'm a little concerned regarding this new build of UGr from the Canadians, although I didn't get a chance to play them this weekend, however the more traditional CounterTop centered builds are pretty savagely behind you. Thresh has always had issues with dedicated control, since their natural tendancy is to extend into your removal. You have almost the same threat base that they do, you have CounterTop, you have frigging Wrath of God, and you have the ultimate trump in Jace. More than any other deck, Thresh cannot afford to lose 20 cards from their library. With such a small threat package, its entirely possible for them to lose the majority of their creatures, and that's not something they can win through easily. Post Board, Extirpate deals with the creatures and other stuff permanantly. It's an excellent matchup for you.

Goyf Sligh/Burn:
Although everyone claims that you have a great matchup based on CounterTop, they still have a tendancy to go to your dome enough to be a pain, especially if they run stuff like Kird Ape out there before you stabalize. You end up at a low enough life that Fireblast just ends it. Since this deck has cropped up so much, I've switched to the COP Reds in the board, which work in the Goblin matchup, too, and pretty much destroy burn. Shutting down 90% of their deck seems fine to me. With the COPs in the board, this matchup goes from marginal to extremely favorable over a 3 game set. Oh, and Goyf gets HUGE in this matchup.

TES:
I suppose it's only fair, since we made both of the decks, that I have some testing in with this matchup. Basically, each deck's matchup revolves around one card - Orim's Chant. TES is the strangest combo deck to play against, because they lose to Force of Will or plow right through it about evenly. Now, Bryant is pretty much the person you should fear with the deck, and he's the only person I'm uncomfortable sitting across from with it. He knows the matchup and his deck through and through, which gives him an advantage others don't have. Still, I find that Counterbalance is all kinds of annoying for him. Combine it with a fast clock like Goyf, and he has a tough time fighting through it. If he goes all in on Warrens, you have plenty of ways to survive, but again, getting Chanted is a pain in the ass. Overall, this matchup is pretty heavily in your favor, but as I said, beware the chanting Orim.

Black Aggro-Control:
Decks like Red Death, Eva Green, and Deadguy were built almost specifically to dominate control matchups. As such, this leaves something to be desired. Still, you have the tools in your deck to make the matchup more favorable for you, and if you manage to get them out there, you should be fine. You need to focus on getting basic lands down wherever possible, and sit on fetches when you can. Utilize Brainstorm reactively, rather than proactively, and run out Standstills if you get a board advantage. Vedalken Shackles is such a beating for them that it's rediculous. Let them invest the time and mana into a Tombstalker or Hippie, and snag it at will. Still, sometimes they can get the nuts, and if that happens, or you hit a pocket of land when you need business (or visa-versa), then you take it in the face. I'd call it even, and highly dependant on draws and the die roll. By the way, Counterbalance is great for you, unless you see a Tombstalker dumped on your head.


That's it for the opener. Between this and the article, you should have something to start with. I'll do my best to answer any other questions in the thread, and listen to Diablos, too, as he knows just about as much about the deck as I do.

Deck looks great. The UWg Landstill build I've been testing is pretty similar, playing Hoofprints. I've been doing some testing with Sylvan Library as Card Quality/Card Advantage/Svg Combo with Hoofprints. In the end, I think it is probably a "danger of cool things" combo, but I figured I'd mention it anyways. It might be worth considering.

And Jace is a house, especially in this deck. I don't know why more people aren't playing him in blue-based control.

All I can say is WOW. Very impressive looking deck.

Got a few questions for you ...

Have you thought about running Tolaria West to grab Academy Ruins or EE?

On same topic since have so many artifacts/enchantments, have you tried Enlightened Tutor?

the sad thing about planeswalkers is that they can be attacked by unblocked attackers. A single swing from an unblocked goyf will kill jace. And it's pretty often goyf will be that big you know :P A pretty sweet deck, but don't you need more creatures to protect you? Creatures with vigilance could maybe do? And adding sylvan library would probably not HURT the deck :-)

EDIT: 50th post! :P

I have a couple of questions/suggestions which may or may not be of some merit. I've been running a similar list which eschews the plainswalker and counter-top package in favor of a sylvan library and LFTL strategy to complement hoofprints of the stag. I read your article on SCG and didn't see any mention of the library (which is amazing with hoofprints) and was just wondering if it came up at all in testing. For reference:

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Englightened Tutor
3 Pithing Needle
4 Brainstorm
4 Sylvan Library
3 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Pursuit of Knowledge
4 Standstill
2 Krosan Grip
2 Life from the Loam
2 Intuition

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Tundra
1 Wasteland
1 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Flooded Strand

is my current list sans sideboard. I never considered using Jace, which is brilliant, and he will most likely replace Sylvan Library number four at the very least as multiples are redundant. Additionally Sylvan Library provides added protection for your counterbalance especially postboard when fearing Krosan Grip. The Library allows you to have a 3cc card on the top of your library right up until you draw and immediately afterwards, leaving no window for split second spells to destroy your counterbalance unchecked - something top alone could not do.

Also, I've found Cephalid Coliseum recursions to be great with hoofprints. While you have no LFTL/crucible it may be worth considering.

Anyway, I enjoyed your article/post a lot and just thought I would present a somewhat different take on the same concept and see if you could get anything from it.

This deck looks pretty solid, I remember like a month ago Gearhart ran a very similar deck one time. I dont know why you run Wrath over Deed, or why you run Jace at all. Deed costs less, kills more stuff, and yeah just seems better to me. Also, Jace is basically just Phyrexian Arena for a few turns because hell always get attacked, and using the each player draws ability seems bad almost any time.

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Originally Posted by kabal

Have you thought about running Tolaria West to grab Academy Ruins or EE?

On same topic since have so many artifacts/enchantments, have you tried Enlightened Tutor?

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@ Tolaria West - While the idea for tutoring for Ruins/EE is nice in theory, in practice Tolaria West ends up sucking more than being awesome. It's a CItP Tapped land, which is more relevant than you'd imagine, and it still tutors for three mana. I'm sure there is a home for it in some deck, but I don't think this is the one.

@ Enlightened - Again, it seems better in theory than it does in practice. I've run it in my board in Landstill before, and it was fine for a silver bullet sideboarding strategy, but that's the most I could fathom using it for here. It locks you into a single strategy, which is something this deck definately doesn't otherwise do. It's not bad, persay, but I'm not overly impressed with it, either.

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Originally Posted by willoe

the sad thing about planeswalkers is that they can be attacked by unblocked attackers. A single swing from an unblocked goyf will kill jace. And it's pretty often goyf will be that big you know :P A pretty sweet deck, but don't you need more creatures to protect you? Creatures with vigilance could maybe do? And adding sylvan library would probably not HURT the deck

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The point is for the creatures to not be on the table. Ideally, anyway. If you check the article, you'll also notice that I mention Goyf is a 6/7 wall at times, too, if you're really strapped for that 'walker to survive. In addition, you'd be surprised how often people overlook the fact that Jace is around, thinking that they'll either kill me before he goes to 11, or that they will benefit from the Howling Mine effect more than I will. Either way, I think in all the time I've been playing him, he's been attacked to death approximately three times, zero by Tarmogoyf.

There are a few things I don't like about Sylvan. For ease of reference, I will list them.

1. It is green. As of now, I run exactly four green cards, which means I never need to expose a Trop when I don't have a Goyf in hand. That's one of the secrets of the basic land count. The less invested in a color you are, the more likely you are to have access to the correct mana when you need it.
2. It competes with Sensei's Divining Top for space. While in essence, they do the same thing, one is much more significant to my strategy than the other. Top plays extremely well with Counterbalance, as we all know. Sylvan does not. Sylvan works extremely well with Hoofprints of the Stag, and Top works pretty well. Counterbalance is a central theme and a four-of. Hoofprints is a secondary win condition and a two-of. See the idea? Again, there is a deck out there somewhere that will exploit Hoofprints and Library. I don't believe this is the one.
3. It can only be used once per turn, which means that a fetchland does not show me three new cards, NOW. This is much more of an issue than you would expect, especially with Counterbalance in play.

All that being said, the combo is pretty savage, so get out there and test it. In another deck.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

This deck looks pretty solid, I remember like a month ago Gearhart ran a very similar deck one time. I dont know why you run Wrath over Deed, or why you run Jace at all. Deed costs less, kills more stuff, and yeah just seems better to me. Also, Jace is basically just Phyrexian Arena for a few turns because hell always get attacked, and using the each player draws ability seems bad almost any time.

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Deed is in two of my tertiary colors. Wrath is in my secondary color (note the 6 white producers, to the 2 each of green and black). Deed kills my win conditions, since they are permanents, as opposed to manlands. It also blows up any Counterbalances that are in play. Wrath kills my guys maybe, and only temporarily. Deed is good in general, but Explosives is better in this deck.

If I honestly have to explain to you why drawing cards is generally better for the control deck than it is for the opponent, and how you can draw three cards to one with Jace forever if you protect him, and how drawing those cards actually helps protect him, then I consider this to be a lost cause.

I would like to say that I was NOT running four Hoofprints. I was only running three. Also, you're right about the Fact or Fictions. I was running them because I was afraid of Fact or Fiction in the control matchup. Looking back at testing, if I have Counter/Top in play, I can let an infinite number of Fact or Fictions resolve because Deed will never come into play. Obviously, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point.

On to the deck, some suggestions that you can get from my deck testing are simple, Burn is a non-issue. Counterbalance beats them. Breakfast game one is pretty easy as well. I will tell you with absolute certainty that Humility is too much. Using Tarmogoyf to block early, then drop a Plague or two will seal the deal. I highly recommend the four Plagues, and no Humilities. I highly recommend Jailer as the grave hate of choice. I know Extirpate has multiple uses, but Jailer is SO MUCH BETTER at shutting down Ichorid. The beauty of Jailer is that Counterbalance makes it so that they can never bounce the Jailer. Thus, they don't get to play Magic. However, Extirpate also shines against Loam, Breakfast (killing their 'Goyf's), and in the control mirror. I would recommend moving up to four though.

I would also seriously look into the Dragon Stompy matchup. It's not necessarily about the Blood Moon effects, so much as the Chalices/Trinisphere. Stax type decks are also a beating. Dragon Stompy is significantly more irritating simply because of the explosion out the gates. First turn Trinisphere, second turn Arc-Slogger is frustrating to the extreme. However, that opening will beat every deck in the format. In a more realistic sense, either Blue Blast, or Deed are good options against them. A theoretical sideboard that I would offer would look like this:

4 Extirpate
4 Plague
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Blue Elemental Blast

Those cards serve multiple purposes. You can bring in both Plague and Blast against Goblins (cutting Counterbalance, Jace, and one Hoofprints) in order to stall the early game, drop Plague + 'Goyf and win. I was never satisfied with Counterbalance against Goblins and Hoofprints rarely helps stabilize. Jace will help them find their Grips as well.

In reality, Threshold is so varied at this point that it's difficult to tell you exactly how to board. However, Deed is ALWAYS insane against them, and Grip will allow you to shut down Counterbalance.

Those are just suggestions borne from my own testing. I've worked on that deck for a long time and I hope you have success with it. I also appreciate the credit...deck thief. :)

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

stuff

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Wrath is still 2 non-blue colored sources, and if you ran Deed then likely another trop would also make its way into the list, I dont think 1BG would be THAT much harder to get than 2WW, just saying maybe you wanna sweep non-creatures sometimes too, but I suppose explosives does that (kind of). All im saying with Jace is that it will get killed often if your opponent sticks just a few threats because you have 4, count em, 4 creatures to block.

@ Dave - While I concur that your board is valid, it's not particularly relevant to my metagame (and sideboarding is where you should be doing the majority of your metagaming). Decree is a must. No one plays Dragon Stompy. No one plays Ichorid. Survival is still a beating (if it's Colin), so Humility is more relevant in that matchup than Plague is.

@ Bovinious - WW is infinitely easier to get in this deck than GB. You run basic Plains. It's also nice to be able to cast Swords to Plowshares, which both requires white mana, and helps with those creatures you keep going on about.

What non-creature permanents are you planning to sweep with Deed that I can't with EE? Keep in mind, if you can cast Deed, I can cast EE at 4.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

stuff

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I dont know what EEs you have, but mine sure dont sweep all cards with CC X or less, so it is concievable that Deed will end up taking way more than EE can, dont pretend this isnt the case. In your current manabase, which I contend is subpar because of all those basics (lol, Plains), maybe WW is a bit easier to get, but just adding a Trop and maybe USea for like an Island and a Plains could make it all the easier to support 1BG...

Deed hits Counterbalance/top/shackles/hoofprints and an unused EE. Why the hell should he play that over wrath? Sometimes I feel you don't read entire lists and just pick on cards because there is a card that is "generally" better than the one being used.

WARNING* Not trying to pick fights, just pointing some things out!!!*

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Deed is good, Explosives is better.

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Explosives is deed Jr. that is only close in power when you have threats around the same cc as something that you want gone, Deed is the classic that has been utilized by landstill to good finishes since Nick Trudeau made his famous deck, BHWC Landstill.

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Deed isn't just a 4 mana investment. Deed is 4 mana, then another 4 mana or whatever when you actually want to kill something. It's slow and it's weak, color requirements aside.

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Deed is 3 mana initially... I would hardly say it is weak, as it is the best sweeper the format has to offer when it comes to flexibility; there is no argument that can be made there in opposition.

I am not saying that P.Deed is for this deck or anything of that sort; I am just saying that it is a strong card that does deserve its' dues, it just may not be for this deck

EDIT: In fact, deed would be terrible in this deck... read Zulander's post # 13

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Originally Posted by zulander

Deed hits Counterbalance/top/shackles/hoofprints and an unused EE. Why the hell should he play that over wrath? Sometimes I feel you don't read entire lists and just pick on cards because there is a card that is "generally" better than the one being used.

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Huh, valid point, I guess Deed wouldnt be just plain better than EE all the time then. Maybe Nightmare could have told me that instead of "justifying" it by referencing a subpar mana base with Plains (LOL) rather than more duals/fetch.

Basic Plains is the second best land in the deck, following closely behind Basic Island. Because you can run more dual lands does not always mean you should. This deck shrugs off Blood Moon effects and Wasteland like no other control deck out there today. For an example of the contrary, look no further than the 4c Landstill manabase, which literally loses to a resolved Blood Moon.

4 Island and 2 Plains (lol) seems really excessive even just to combat blood moons, you have fetches also to find these subpar mana producers (oh wait, there arnt even 8 fetches...), so I really dont think 6 basics is needed or desirable in a 4 color deck. Also, i was advocating more duals only if you were going to run Deed, as it stands now Id probably just add 1 trop 1 fetch and cut 2 basics...

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4 Island and 2 Plains (lol) seems really excessive even just to combat blood moons,

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And Wasteland, and Rishadan Port, but whatever.

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you have fetches also to find these subpar mana producers (oh wait, there arnt even 8 fetches...),

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Getting WW is particularly important with this deck, and the surest way to do so in the face of opposing Wastes is with basics. Polluted Delta does not fetch a Plains, and as such is not as good as Flooded Strand in the deck. There have been countless times where I would prefer to fetch a Plains [(lol)] but could not. Seven Fetches is the number I have arrived at, and I'm 100% happy with it.

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so I really dont think 6 basics is needed or desirable in a 4 color deck. Also, i was advocating more duals only if you were going to run Deed, as it stands now Id probably just add 1 trop 1 fetch and cut 2 basics...

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I've been playing and testing this deck for better than a month, and wouldn't have put it up, putting my own credibility on the line, had I not cemented my logic on every single card in the deck beforehand. By no means am I infallable, but I am certain that I have lost games due to Tundra not being a basic Plains. It's an incorrect assumption that duals and fetches are always a more correct choice than basics. If I were to add the 4th Delta, it would be for an Island, not a Plains. In addition, this really isn't a four color deck. At the most, it's three, and even that's a stretch. It's more like a two color deck splashing green.

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Youre basically saying "dont you dare question my 6 basics lands, 2 of which are Plains (lol)", whats the point of even posting your deck if you arnt prepared to defend your deck in a logical and non inflammatory manner?

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I'm saying precisely this: If you aren't willing to present evidence why you believe my card choices are incorrect, but rather continue to declare them as subpar merely by sight, and follow with an lol for good measure, then why should I bother to try and refute you?

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Zulander defended your deck better than you

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Zulander took the time to make the explaination that I would hope was obvious. Landstill plays Deed because they don't play permanents other than land. This deck does. Blowing up your own board position with Pernicious Deed does not seem to me to be the right play at any point in the game.

K, so I cleaned up that bunch of garbage. Apologies to all, including Bovinious. Let's get the discussion back on track now.

1. Have you tested FoF/Gifts or do you think Jace is the better of the three?

2. Imho Sphere of law > CoP red. Sure CoP red comes down faster but it doesn't stop turn 1 lacky. And the fact that once you resolve sphere of law you can start using your resources elsewhere and not truely worry if you have mana untapped on their turn.

I would personally suggest just deleting all those posts and start up the thread again, as the thread seems too caught up in the petty argument which is currently ensuing.

It is however funny that an intellectual (Nightmare) and an imbisile (bovinious) (sorry my spelling is atrocious and my spell check is not functioning) are arguing about something as petty as basic lands in a control deck.

I myself play only two basic lands in landstill and am quite fine; I have taken the time to playtest your MU against landstill (UGWB), during the coarse of the night (you posted your article, there is a little bit more time that has elapsed there than a measly 3 hours BTW).

I found that the MU is in Landstill's favor, as they utilize your best draw spell better than you 100% of the time (unless they are incompetent), and they have less dead cards than you do (you have: wrath, explosives, standstill; They have: nothing)

You have an underwhelming amount of protection against their threats, where you only have swords and shackles; they have deed (which hits a very large portion of your deck, except of coarse your jace), swords (hits goyf gladly, and stag tokens), and sometimes edict (but most of them are opting to play spell snare instead, which is a much better option against this deck).

They run more hard countermagic than you, and while your little combo of CB/top is nice, it really doesn't realistically live for longer than a turn or even hit the board for that matter (at least not both parts, specifically the CB).




The goblin MU also seems off, as while I haven't gotten a chance to play this MU (I will concede this) CB is aweful against them. I will usually board out CB against goblins whenever I am playing something that utilizes that combination of cards... goblins has 12 1cc cards, 5-6 2cc cards, and 12 3cc cards (including incinerator for off chances)... you have 2 3cc cards in your entire deck, 11 1cc cards, and 16 2cc cards... Your CB will never counter warcheif or matron, it will never touch ringleader (which you have only Fow against), and it will never touch sgc or Kiki-jiki (for those who still run it).


This is all I have to put out there; Your other analysis of your other MUs seemed about right overall; well written article, well written primer; just a little bit more testing against a couple decks, that's all. I do not mean to be well mean or anything, I am just here to clarify some things that seemed to be misrepresented previously.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

I would personally suggest just deleting all those posts and start up the thread again, as the thread seems too caught up in the petty argument which is currently ensuing.

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I tried cleaning up most of the garbage. There was some relevant stuff in there.

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I have taken the time to playtest your MU against landstill (UGWB)...

I found that the MU is in Landstill's favor, as they utilize your best draw spell better than you 100% of the time (unless they are incompetent), and they have less dead cards than you do (you have: wrath, explosives, standstill; They have: nothing)

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Working under the assumption that you're playing with BHWW landstill, or even the Waste-less ones, I'm basically only concerned with a single card - Deed. It's seriously the only card I care about in the slightest, and really only in game 1. As I said in the article, and above, the ability of Landstill to better operate under a Standstill renders mine fairly irrelevant in game 1, and only slightly better in games two and three. It's a known issue, but there are ways to better handle the issue. In general, I'm willing to break the first Standstill, if I either have a mana advantage, or a solid enough hand where I feel like I can push a threat through. It's not simple, and again, Deed wrecks that plan, but it's not exactly an aweful matchup. Jace is still just as good as I said - if he resolves, BHWW has nothing that can deal with him outside attacking with Monasteries. Post board, Decree can wrench that for a while, or just win. It's something I'm willing to work on, but the matchup isn't prevalent enough around me to dedicate that much time to it. I'm generally more concerned with white based Landstill, which is rampant in Syracuse. On the other hand, the principles that work well for one are good for the other as well, like Decree or even Pithing Needle in the board.

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They run more hard countermagic than you, and while your little combo of CB/top is nice, it really doesn't realistically live for longer than a turn or even hit the board for that matter (at least not both parts, specifically the CB).

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I suppose this is true in the perfect world where they open with Spell Snare, Deed, Force, Counterspell, and the mana to play it all. On the other hand, I could just as soon open with Top, Counterbalance, and Double Force backup, with a Shackles in the top three to stop Deed from ever seeing play. It can happen either way - both decks are very good.

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The goblin MU also seems off, as while I haven't gotten a chance to play this MU (I will concede this) CB is aweful against them.

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Generally speaking, I've actually found it better vs. them with this deck than any other one I've played it in, partially because my curve rides a little higher. I actually keep it in post board, believe it or not. They have 8 cards that circumvent it, sure, but you can deal with those eventually, and in the mean time, slow them enough by forcing them to rely on Vial that you have time to find answers to those cards.

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you have 2 3cc cards in your entire deck(4 in the MD, with anywhere from 3 to 7 more in the board), 11 1cc cards, and 16 2cc cards... Your CB will never counter warcheif or matron, it will never touch ringleader (which you have only Fow against), and it will never touch sgc or Kiki-jiki (for those who still run it).

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You didn't mention the 4cc cards or the fact that FoW stops Siege Gang, but that's fine. It's not the best against Goblins, I agree, but neither is Counterspell. Still, with a plethora of removal in the MD, Goyf, recurring defense in Hoofprints, and a TON of help from the board, it hasn't been all that difficult to deal with Goblins in testing.

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This is all I have to put out there; Your other analysis of your other MUs seemed about right overall; well written article, well written primer; just a little bit more testing against a couple decks, that's all. I do not mean to be well mean or anything, I am just here to clarify some things that seemed to be misrepresented previously.

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I'll be sure to test them some more. I appreciate the feedback.

I'll be honest here, Adam:

Your deck looks the strongest and most consistent of all the CaNG d's...at least in my opinion. I've seen it in action and I'm quite impressed. Hats off to a fantastic concoction.

Not going to lie, this deck is really awesome. In the three or four games I played on MWS, I've seen that there are just so many BOMBS that need to be answered in the early game, and from such an incredibly diverse range of threats (Creature, Enchantment, Planeswalker).

The only clunky card to me is Wrath of God; then again, I haven't played against dedicated aggro. It seems like a necessary evil against Goblins (or to dodge enemy Counterbalances to sweep Mongooses and/or Tarmogoyfs).

Very, very well done.

I think Standstill is a terrible choice here. You can't drop a turn two Standstill and ever put any pressure on your opponent to break it. If you were to do so, you would be gambling on the fact that your opponent is going to misguess your deck and assume you play a method of backing the Standstill up.

In fact the only times you can ever afford to drop it is if you have a Goyf out, a Hoofprints out, a Jace out, or you have more cards in your library than your opponent.

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I found the deck awkward and inconsistent at times, granted I don't have a sufficient number of games to be 100% skilled with it, but most of the games I won were due to the power of the individual cards overwhelming the opponent as opposed to a coherent game plan. Balance/Top couldn't deal with 3cc cards at all, Standstill was just awful with out a Tarmogoyf on the board, which made it win more, and Jace was a dud against all forms of aggro.

I'd be tempted to drop Standstill for Thirst for Knowledge or Intuition/Life from the Loam for consistent card advantage and 3cc cards to prevent Intuition/Loam and Pernicious Deed from resolving on the other side of the table. Either of those cards are strong with Hoof Prints of the Stag and should churn thru' the deck at a higher rate.

Counterspell would also help to shore up the counter wall, a lot of random shit slips thru' Force of Will and Counterbalance, and it's infuriating as all hell.

Edit: Since Wrath of God and Tarmogoyf is a nombo, I'd look into Volrath's Stronghold, given the card is ridiculous in control/aggro-control mirrors and has synergy with Counterbalance.

I agree with the general evaluation of Standstill.

If your plan is "achieve board superiority, then drop Standstill to draw 3 cards on the spot", then Threshold and Fish can make a better use of Standstill than this deck (because they have more early threats and more countermagic to protect them). Unless you're counting on your opponent waiting forever to break it, in which case they are either bad or playing a deck that operates better than you under Standstill.

Either Standstill should be put in Thresh/Fish, or this deck should run a better card drawing engine. TfK would be my first choice to test.

To all who are discussing Standstill vs. Thirst, it's been on my list of things to test for a while now. I'm aware of the difficulty in exploiting the card, and it's quite possible that Thirst will be a better use of the slot. I'll be testing it throughout the week, and let you know how it pans out.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

To all who are discussing Standstill vs. Thirst, it's been on my list of things to test for a while now. I'm aware of the difficulty in exploiting the card, and it's quite possible that Thirst will be a better use of the slot. I'll be testing it throughout the week, and let you know how it pans out.

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I might be totally out on left field on this, but I feel that Standstill is only better if your deck is designed to win the game while sitting under the enchantment.

Some examples of what I exactly mean are the following. Lets say you have decree of justice, can make solider tokens via cycling under standstill. Lets say you play man lands and/or wasteland to control your opponent under standstill. Being able to make tokens without breaking the enchantment is the key on the inclusion of it. The last good example is Hoofprints of the Stag as Adam plays in his deck.

Since most of these cards are not present in the deck, I believe Thirst for Knowledge may be a better alternative, giving the fact that the artifact count is high enough.

Let us know how the testing does. Good Luck.

I feel that if you're going to cut Standstill, which I disagree with, it should be for 2-3x Fact and probably a Skeletal Scrying or two. Cutting standstill hurts the 2cc slot for counterbalance.

EDIT: The deck doesnt play enough artifacts to support Thirst even with academy ruins.

I do think that this deck is good; however, I think I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a bit.

How is this deck significantly different from Landstill? The only significantly different cards I see are Tarmogoyf, Jace and Hoofprints and even then they are not unheard of on the Landstill thread.

How is this deck better than landstill? Some concerns: it runs Goyf, which is bigger but can be countered, as its only win condition (besides Shackle-ing one of their dudes); it runs not nearly as many hard-counters as landstill; you might have to break standstill to play your threats and your threats do not recur - once they're gone, they're gone.

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Originally Posted by Klaan

How is this deck better than landstill? Some concerns: it runs Goyf, which is bigger but can be countered, as its only win condition (besides Shackle-ing one of their dudes); it runs not nearly as many hard-counters as landstill; you might have to break standstill to play your threats and your threats do not recur - once they're gone, they're gone.

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Jace and Hoofprints are still win conditions, as is Shackles as you mention. Landstill runs eight hard counters. You run Force of Will and Counterbalance, which can potentially act as infinate hard counters as well. Also, if Shackles is being used as a win condition against say, Tarmogoyf, you recur it with Academy Ruins.

I like the name of this deck and the idea of control in legacy.
The only thing I have issues with is Jace, but I've never used the card so I don't know how good it really is. I assume the strategy for it is to draw one card over two turns leaving him at one, and then recharge with the howling mine affect. So the card advantage is -1 for Jace, and -1 every time you use his howling mine. which is paid off after the first two activations. So you only really gain card advantage after four turns which is during a howling mine. I think the mill effect is useless compared to drawing cards. Don't get me wrong, I like milling. But only 20 cards that sound that great. I'm sure there's games that have crept up where it's been used but that's just showing off in light that you've given the player five cards in order to do it when you've could have been drawing into a win condition. Perhaps the real issue of card advantage can be argued that atleast your drawing cards much like cantrips.
I like Jace as a card, but he strikes me as one of those 'cool' cards like Arcanis.

Which brings me to my next point: This deck to me lacks a real card drawing engine (despite Jace over a long game ). I think fact or fiction is a good card that wins games, gifts aswell. The biggest draw back is the casting cost, much like wrath of god. I was wondering if you considered adding more mana excel to the deck to play such spells earlier.

In closing I'd like to say this is by far my favorite deck of the submissions so far, and hope you do well.

They deck lacks synergy. It's just powerful cards put together...

It rolls and dies to aggro. I have been play testing it, and it's losing to FALSE CURE!!!


WTF! StP their Kavu, and they still win/Rebuff the Wicked it!

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Originally Posted by APriestOfGix

They deck lacks synergy. It's just powerful cards put together...

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That's how you build decks. You put the best cards of the colors you want to play and just pick 60 of them.

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Originally Posted by zulander

That's how you build decks. You put the best cards of the colors you want to play and just pick 60 of them.

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There are so many decks that do not follow this "rule". For example: Solidarity (Counterbalance? Portent?), TES (Anything really, its got golden lands), Iggy-Pop (Hymn? Counterbalance?), Thresh (Mental Note and Predict straight up suck in any normal deck, I wouldn't consider them as one of the "best cards"), and Goblins (Lightning Bolt?).

The way these decks were built is that the deck designers found cards that fit in with the overall strategy and were synergistic with each other.

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Originally Posted by Klaan

There are so many decks that do not follow this "rule". For example: Solidarity (Counterbalance? Portent?), TES (Anything really, its got golden lands), Iggy-Pop (Hymn? Counterbalance?), Thresh (Mental Note and Predict straight up suck in any normal deck, I wouldn't consider them as one of the "best cards"), and Goblins (Lightning Bolt?).

The way these decks were built is that the deck designers found cards that fit in with the overall strategy and were synergistic with each other.

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Well Mental Note always sucks, but valid point, synergy is important to consider in deck building. However, sometimes a bunch of good cards can come together and make a good deck based on sheer power of the individual cards or unintentional synergies, see PT: Junk decks for instance.

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Originally Posted by zulander

That's how you build decks. You put the best cards of the colors you want to play and just pick 60 of them.

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I would argue that LftL would be bad in both survival and thresh (both of which use grren)....

I would also argue that damnation would be bad in SI...

Such comments are bad for the integrity of these boards and the soul of Legacy as a whole.

Why not run a couple of Tolaria Wests in the manabase, for finding Ruins, EE and potential cards out of the SB? Because it's a U producing land, it gives a lot of utility for essentially 0 deckspace. It also gets around Standstill, so you could use it to tutor for a singleton land win condition, forcing your opponent to break it.

After boarding, Crypt, Tabernacle and manlands can all be brought in as 1-ofs, increasing the amount of answers the deck can run for minimal mainboard and sideboard space.

@ Zulander: Your format of choice wouldn't happen to be Type 2, would it?

@ The "Problem" of Standstill: TfK is bad. Really bad. In all honesty I would play Council of the Soratomi over TfK for what I thought would be obvious reasons. I would instead sugest Accumulated Knowledge or Ancestral Vision (I think that here I should say I haven't played the deck yet, so I don't know if your deck is too slow for 4x Ancestral Vision). I would advocate AK over Vision because I think it would be the better replacement for Standstill since it doesn't alter your mana curve and it doesn't have any attached delay. The first casting is obviously a little under whelming, but the draw is centered in the late-game, where I would presume you would want/ need it most.