[Deck Choice] Help me choose a deck

I am going to a legacy torny in a while and have many legacy decks built. There are only a couple legacy cards that are important that I dont own, one is the enchantress deck (like the whole deck lol) another is sea drakes, and another is Grim tutors (though I own 2). I have tested All the thresh varients, and strongly dislike them. Have come up with the following decks but have issues with each. Assume I am the best player I can be with each because I have tested each for equal time and am very good at playing each.

1) TES - Now that counterbalance is MUCH LESS of an issue(Shusher just proves even more that goblins DO love combo, see ETW :laugh: ), I am alot more inclined to play this, but theres a reason it doesnt T8 all that often, and it has something to do with the 16+ MD hate every deck has along with 4-8 SB cards for it. I like this deck alot but it will be hated on.

2) Ichorid- This deck used to put up numbers but now its a real deck in legacy, so guess what its just like extended once it was a "REAL DECK" every boarded for it and it died, then it went back to "you dont board for me I WIN!" and thats what it is right now in legacy.

3) 4c Cunning Land still- I love this deck, I dont feel like theres any matchup Im negative% against. Downsides are PYSICAL BURNOUTS and losing to time because I run humility not goyf.

4) Dragon stompy- Seems like this deck is like landstill it can win any matchup... on first turn by resolving a moon effect half the time but it just seems to inconsistent to go to a torny with.

5) Any thresh varient- as good as these are only the UGw one even seems good to me, you will play against rock and against other decks built to beat thresh, so im skeptical as to this being a good choice.

Bottom line is i would like to run TES or ichorid, but i think there will be a metric crapton of hate. While landstill which I could do VERY well with easily, will burn me out before the T8 and also run each match to time

EDIT: the metagame is compleatly unknown.

Unknown meta? Go with Thresh. You may get difficult matchups but you will never get completely blown out.

Although I'll be honest: if "only the UGw one even seems good to [you]", I'm betting you're not a good Threshold player.

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Although I'll be honest: if "only the UGw one even seems good to [you]", I'm betting you're not a good Threshold player.

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You would be wrong, when I say UGw seems to be the only good one I mean the following

1) I determine good by playing thou a gauntlet with the deck. including

Ichorid
BG Rock/w
4c Landstill
UGr Thresh
UGbw Thresh
UGw Thresh
TES
Dragon stompy

Those are the decks or some varient of the decks I expect to play/give me trouble in tornies. Yes I left out R/w goblins because I dont think that its all that hot in the metagoyf. The metagoyf is soposed to metagoyf R/w goblins away.

Not to sound arrogant but I have played thresh of all kinds (save red thresh or thrash. I just dont like red.... unless im casting combo cards.) and can put up numbers. The only real advantage of thresh is that you dont mull, and it does the same thing every time vs an opposing deck. I really REALLY hate UGr thresh just because it has R in it. UGW thresh is so so in my experiance not having a ton of stelar matchups but alot of good ones. UGwb is very anti aggro and anti combo, while loseing a little VS control.

You can call me a bad thresh player but its partialy because I play decks that have good/decent matchups with thresh or decks that are just awfull vs decks with FoW in them. (Ichorid and landstill have decent MUs vs any deck, ichorid unless you board 6+ hate, and landstill unless you have geddons.) and TES is just barely 1-2 or 2-1 vs anything blue in my experiance.

Also despite every decks preparation for the combo matchup, no one tests it in my experiance. If the opponent doesnt know what to do here (other then board cards that he was told are good vs combo) he will lose regaurdless. You have no idea how many times i have had my dark ritual duressed, or thoughsieze took LED when there was the potential to cripple me snatching bissnus (granted being a topdecker is great!) but even though alot (read EVERYONE) prepairs for the combo matchup no one TESTS it for the most part. Which is why I want to play TES so much but im afrade I would hit some one that knew how to do this and while im good at playing it I would consider myself only half as good as I need to be to fight FoW+FoW + stifle in the same hand or FOW+ C spell + stifle.

My worst nightmare in TES is simply "Remove susher in responce with CB+Top in play" or game 1 going all in and getting forced. Threshold boasts only one thing in my oppinion, because of 8 + cantrips it is CONSISTENT it keeps the same thing every game(granted that is pretty good). It punishes the opponent for sub par hands and mulligans.

Where as my worst nightmare for landstill Is that I will start misplaying by round 3-4 because i will be tired as heck from 3-4 hours of play with no/little break.

In an unknown metagame what should I play. Is the bottom line.

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Originally Posted by undone

Not to sound arrogant but I have played thresh of all kinds (save red thresh or thrash. I just dont like red.... unless im casting combo cards.) and can put up numbers. The only real advantage of thresh is that you dont mull, and it does the same thing every time vs an opposing deck. I really REALLY hate UGr thresh just because it has R in it. UGW thresh is so so in my experiance not having a ton of stelar matchups but alot of good ones. UGwb is very anti aggro and anti combo, while loseing a little VS control.

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"Thresh of all kinds", except regular UGr, one of the 2 most popular, Thrash, which can be a great choice depending on metagame, Moon Thresh, which can punish weak mana bases, which are pretty common in the "splash one more colour, it can't hurt" age of today, Swans Thresh, which while stil in development looks like it could soon become a top choice or 5c Thresh, which is pretty stable, and can find an answer to anything.

Thats 5/8 major builds of Thresh right there running red. Your reason for not running red is also completely ridiculous, and it takes me back to an earlier point.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

Although I'll be honest: if "only the UGw one even seems good to [you]", I'm betting you're not a good Threshold player.

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However, Thresh is the best deck in the format for a reason, included in an unknown metagame.

I actually think U/G/b and U/G/b/w Thresh are the best Thresh splashes, but I'm probably biased about that...

Basicaly the bottom line is. Threshold ( UGr UGb UGw and UGwb) are all very popular choices. The thing about this is, With the exception of the 2 most popular choices (UGr and UGW) Threshold doesnt actualy WIN that many tornies. The reason for that is that it is a consistent deck that can beat scrubs, but has to board cards for its tough matchups or lose them. Which it does. But threshold cant be ready for everything, (IE if its ready for ichorid its not ready for say the mirror or landstill) I can play threshold but find it to be a deck that is prepaired for.

I know 3 players will be taking angel stax 2 will be taking BGw Rock 1 dragon stompy 1 UGbw Landstill. I dont know the rest of the metagame but those are just the people from our store. If you notice there are 7 bad matchups right out of the gate, and only 1 card really fixes more then 1 MU and thats pithing needle, but it still doesnt help nearly enough to be MD.

Realisticly I hate threshold for several reasons. I could play it but have a strong distate for it. I feel that if I was going to play a deck with FoW in it (yes that is alot of decks) I would be playing landstill. I can play threshold but I would rather play any of the other decks listed. If i was to play threshold what would be the best varient and why.

I don't care for Threshold either, it's consistent, but there's nothing unfair about Threshold and unlike Landstill it doesn't come back from behind.

You could use a middle of the road deck like either Cephalid Illusionist or Phyrexian Dreadnought, those two decks probably have the best win percentages in a random field, and they're totally under the radar.

Breakfast seems awful, simply because your 1 extirpate/swords away from a game loss. dreadnaught landstill or just tossing in 2-3 dreadnaughts in landstill seems like it could be good. however that is sadly... one of the FEW legacy cards I dont own (i have 1..)

What is the best combo deck right now? Ichorid? I could play that. The bottom line is that I have basicaly every combo and stompy deck built. My basic question is if Threshold is so good and consistent why do landstill and ichorid place just as much? and tipicaly place HIGHER. I am just wary about playing the deck because the deck is prepaired for by EVERY one.

I sopose I should change this to "Help me pick the best deck under the radar" Because I hate playing popular decks every one is ready for

PLAY ICHORID! Ichorid is REALLY underrated right now in legacy. It's not really hated on very much, ususally 3-4 sideboard cards, and if you're opponent is a lucky dreadstill player, they'll have 1 crypt maindeck. 3-4 sideboard crypts or extirpates we ALL know is NOT ENOUGH hate to wreck ichroid, i think we learned that from this past extended season where people had 7-8 sideboard cards for just that deck, and it still made top 8s EVERYWHERE.
I really underestimated ichorid in the legacy metagame as this one kid the card shop i go to showed me. We were playing against each other with his ichorid deck and my goofy combo deck (i like to call is J-POS, but you might know it as SI). I win turn 1 about 40-50% of the time (very inconsistently i should add) and he beat me more than i beat him.

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My basic question is if Threshold is so good and consistent why do landstill and ichorid place just as much? and tipicaly place HIGHER. I am just wary about playing the deck because the deck is prepaired for by EVERY one.

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Because nearly every deck is built nowadays with specific answers between maindeck and sideboard to handle Goyf and CounterTop... and this is because they are so mainstream. It's the same way every deck prepared for Goblins when Goblins was the most played deck. And Threshold still does very well in tournaments. I wasn't advocating that you play Threshold though, I was simply saying that I find U/G/b (and U/G/b/w) to be the best splash(es), since that splash(es) wasn't even mentioned.

Personally, I'd play U/G/b DAT Thresh, a deck I've been working on for quite some time. Basically, its U/G/b Threshold that CAN come back from behind. The biggest drawback to the deck is the pricetag.

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I don't care for Threshold either, it's consistent, but there's nothing unfair about Threshold and unlike Landstill it doesn't come back from behind.

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Personally, I'd play U/G/b DAT Thresh, a deck I've been working on for quite some time. Basically, its U/G/b Threshold that CAN come back from behind. The biggest drawback to the deck is the pricetag.

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assume money is a non issue. i own

all the blue duals (-1 volc)
4 goyf
4 force
4 bob
4 Tseize
18 fetches (-2 mires)
4 CB
4 Top
100s of Daze's

4x Every combo enabler ever printed for legacy

I basicaly dont own a very few legacy cards so price is a non issue (save playing some shitty card like zodiac dragon.... or something like the random dreadnaughts...)

I actualy have ichorid foiled out (-4 seas obv and 4 LED) I played ichorid for ever in extended (LITTERALY SINCE DREDGE ATOG, and long before it was popular) And the deck in legacy is SO much fun. Its just that I have found a daze here, and tarmogoyf there, and a force here, is enough hate to get there. (granted not OFTEN something like 1 in 8 games) only real problem is if some one ACTUALY boards 6-7 cards or boards +sees extirpate. in this format it seems.... really good, unless they have force I could see playing ichorid though (Check my sig :P ^_^)

you DO NOT have ichorid COMPLETELY foiled out... i've seen it and you LIE!!! i don't think your watery graves are foiled! :P

like i've told you a million times, PLAY ICHORID at the tournament. And seriously, you don't think you could get someone lend you dreadnoughts if you really wanted to play the deck? like... maybe your friend who's planning on playing Dragon Stompy ;)

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Originally Posted by undone

Breakfast seems awful, simply because your 1 extirpate/swords away from a game loss. dreadnaught landstill or just tossing in 2-3 dreadnaughts in landstill seems like it could be good. however that is sadly... one of the FEW legacy cards I dont own (i have 1..)

What is the best combo deck right now? Ichorid? I could play that. The bottom line is that I have basicaly every combo and stompy deck built. My basic question is if Threshold is so good and consistent why do landstill and ichorid place just as much? and tipicaly place HIGHER. I am just wary about playing the deck because the deck is prepaired for by EVERY one.

I sopose I should change this to "Help me pick the best deck under the radar" Because I hate playing popular decks every one is ready for

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A good Cephalid deck steam rolls Landstill and Threshold, just cut Worldly Tutor, Ponder, Aether Vial and Nomad En-Kor for Living Wish, Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance and Shuko and hate isn't a serious issue.

1 Dreadnaught is enough, add 4 Trinket Mage and 1 Dreadnaught into a Landstill shell and see how it works, or run a TrinketGoyf deck and dominate the aggro-control mirror.

If you can play any Stompy deck, Faerie Stompy is great IMO.

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Originally Posted by undone

My basic question is if Threshold is so good and consistent why do landstill and ichorid place just as much? and tipicaly place HIGHER.

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I really think, looking back on the top8 data in the DTB forum, that is a bit of a misconception. This month is actually the first update where landstill and ichorid have placed as much as threshold, and the decks themselves dont, judging by the data, "typically place higher." Also, top8 rankings have alot of luck involved in who you get paired against.

If the metagame is completely unknown, then you dont know what you will see hate for so its rather hard to choose. Why not just play ichorid, like you said, if they dont board you will win, its fairly underplayed in most metas and seems like a reasonably strong choice. Also, just judging by your statements about thresh I also have doubts you are very strong with the deck so its likely just not the best deck for your playstyle.

No but i can borrow the shiny graves from Mr Foil.cube:D(and my version runs 4 gemstone mines over graves for bluffing, and for lack of additional life loss in the thrash matchup improving it to near auto win) and dreadnaught is just fun because 2 turn clocks that read 1U 12/12 trampler are good

Im also probably sure He would rather play dreadnaught.dec If he could get the duals

Ichorid is fine i just need to tweek the build a little to fit 4 careful studies to help the crypt infested metagame a bit, and decide if stax or goblins will be more prominant (for the 1x brittany or 1x mis america)

Also you are right threshold doesnt suit my playstyle at all. Im not saying it isnt good I just cant stand it, thats why UGw thresh is at least a little appealing. It has control elements and draw in predict and geddon.

Play Dreadstill, you will be happy with it.

DS or anything that suits you best and to your liking.

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Originally Posted by undone

assume money is a non issue. i own

all the blue duals (-1 volc)
4 goyf
4 force
4 bob
4 Tseize
18 fetches (-2 mires)
4 CB
4 Top
100s of Daze's

4x Every combo enabler ever printed for legacy

I basicaly dont own a very few legacy cards so price is a non issue (save playing some shitty card like zodiac dragon.... or something like the random dreadnaughts...)

I actualy have ichorid foiled out (-4 seas obv and 4 LED) I played ichorid for ever in extended (LITTERALY SINCE DREDGE ATOG, and long before it was popular) And the deck in legacy is SO much fun. Its just that I have found a daze here, and tarmogoyf there, and a force here, is enough hate to get there. (granted not OFTEN something like 1 in 8 games) only real problem is if some one ACTUALY boards 6-7 cards or boards +sees extirpate. in this format it seems.... really good, unless they have force I could see playing ichorid though (Check my sig :P ^_^)

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Seems like you should play Ichorid. It's a good deck, though not easy to play, and your build would be really cool with all the foils. Go for it, the worst that can happen is that you scrub out once, lose $10 (obviously that's no big deal for you) and try a new deck next time.

To be honest it depends on the kind of player you are. I have no respect at all for Thresh and greatly dislike the deck not to mention it is quite boring (IMOP) to play. If you are going into an unknown meta Tombstone (AKA BGw Rock with Brainstorm) is a very solid deck. Dredge is not a good deck to play in a blind metagame in that if you are unfamiliar with how the legacy decks work you won't be successful. The hardest part of playing Dredge is counter-sideboarding and the rest is just knowing what to pitch and the order of casting things and remembering to bring back Ichorid and beat face. If you are unfamiliar with the typical Dredge hate and how to fight through it (which it does not do all so well) don't play it.

Any of the random Survival variants like RGb with Therapy are very solid and good performing decks. So is Aggro Loam, which everyone in Europe knows is amazing. It is just as consistent as Thresh (if not more) and smashes Thresh in the face. I am very partial towards Aggro Loam. Most builds are very solid and if you check in the forums you will find all kinds of info about the deck; in the beginning I had severe doubts about Countryside Crusher, but after playing the deck, he gets disgustingly large if left unchecked for 2-4 turns (I am talking like 13/13-20/20 it is that obscene)

I didn´t read all the posts but that burnout thing with landstill isn´t true except you are an Ape ;) Every mediocore player (like me) can train and learn and get a really good landstill-pilot. When i picked up the 3c ls first I lost to goblins often but since I´ve learned a lot from these losses today I can say that I got a positiv goblin matchup because I play better.

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The hardest part of playing Dredge is counter-sideboarding and the rest is just knowing what to pitch and the order of casting things and remembering to bring back Ichorid and beat face. If you are unfamiliar with the typical Dredge hate and how to fight through it (which it does not do all so well) don't play it.

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Lets just put it this way. I know what about 80% of legacy decks board for Ichorid, these include extirpate, crypt and a few leyline and some thresh board 0 cards. As to reading what they are boarding. I have played ichorid in small tornies since the day Bridge from below graced my eyes. I am glad it didnt degenerate but Im somewhat scared off by a random player boarding 8 cards. Because in this format, its rare to go for the imp beatdown. (best story ever then return to thread)

Turn 0 opponent slaps down 3x leyline with no mull.
him T1 gargadon suspend (gargatings)
me T1 NEEDLE GARGADON.

I get up to 4 lands, he gets up to 10, AND HARD CASTS 3 GARGADONS WHILE THE OTHER ONE IS SUSPENDED. I have 3 stinkweed imps in play to block 3. I let him swing in. Kill 3. Chain of vapor 1, and then with damage on E truth my stikweed imps. Durring this game I manage to deal with 5 HARD CASTED GARGADONS with the all powerful stinkweed pimp.

/end story


Thats what I dont like about legacy Theres no reason to do the man plan if you dont get the mana(need at least 3!) which will never happen running so few lands. Dont get me wrong the deck is amazeing but in an unknown metagame I would hate to see myself hated out of the format. (has happened) I might play it anyway simply because its so much fun. But then so is TES. LANDSTILL IS SO MUCH FUN. But honestly I think you will probably burn out even if you dont think so playing till time matches each round gives you like 5 min to get food and such.

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Originally Posted by NQN

I didn´t read all the posts but that burnout thing with landstill isn´t true except you are an Ape ;) Every mediocore player (like me) can train and learn and get a really good landstill-pilot. When i picked up the 3c ls first I lost to goblins often but since I´ve learned a lot from these losses today I can say that I got a positiv goblin matchup because I play better.

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As a guy who just recently started looking into getting into 1.5 I can say another nice thing about the Vorosh landstill list that was pointed out to me by Der Imagianar Freund (sorry for the spelling if you're watching) is that so many cards are staple cards that aren't dead ends if you decide to switch to some other deck archetype. They hold their value well if you decide to trade/sell them. You'll fork out a lot for the list, but it will hopefully be more of an investment than just dead money if you change your mind. Also, it feels really cool to sort your deck and look at all those money cards. :smile:

I just finished assembling the list yesterday after a couple of months and am looking forward to getting mauled at my local 1.5 tournament this weekend!

All of the listed decks are viable. Play what you like most. If you have fun playing a deck you will play better and have more fun in the event unless you play MTG just for winning. If that's the case play combo.

I Will probably play either Ichorid, or possibly TES/FT Personaly TES/FT I am only afrade of 1 card, im confident if I dont see it I will not lose all day (a match) and that is Cbalance. Unfortuneatly Im confident that I will see it at some point. Game 2 Im fine but Its difficult to play the deck. I was thinking Enchantress combo might be inteseresting if i can get it together.

Also if testing proves that Landstill doesnt take 30 years and 356 days to compleate a game I could play that still (UBG/w)

you can put enchantress together for relatively cheap. it's probably not as good as any of the decks you claim to have access to though. it's good fun though

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Originally Posted by Shtriga

you can put enchantress together for relatively cheap. it's probably not as good as any of the decks you claim to have access to though. it's good fun though

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Not worth the investment. Like twelve of the 75 cards in the deck have applications elsewhere.

Threshold is a good starting place because the deck is incredibly straightforward, has been at least decent since GP Philly, and will stay that way for a good time. Also, it has all the cards that are needed for other decks if you decide to play them.

Is solidaridy any good still, all im missing is 4 reset. I know I am playing combo, and Im also building enchantress bloom a deck a friend made, which is really good involving enchantress with 4 Cadav bloom and 1 drain life and 1 tendrils. Also the only thing I really want to know is what are the combo decks and why/why arent they compedative heres a list of ones I know of (I Consider enchantress combo, because it kind of is) and ones i know of I have built mostly.

TES
FT
IGGy PoP(not very good)
Belcher(meh?)
Ichorid
Ceph breakfast
Life

Thats all I know of/ have built, Assume Im the best player in the world (im clearly not) But I have legacy built in terms of staple cards and such, and I am rather fast on the uptake.

at this point you should decide which deck to play with, based on your own personal preference. finding out which one you have the most fun, and play it.

you're not preparing for a pro tour where there's 40k $ at stake, enjoyment should be your #1 priority. besides people have suggested like 10 decks already, and you've shot down all of them

you seem a big adept of combo decks, I'm no combo expert, but you can battle through the hate with a deck like TES or ichorid. they're still vulnerable to disruption, but you have the answers if you can pilot them well. go for it?

No but there are rather good prizes for this torny. I was curious more as to the thoughts on what deck was best to take into a totaly random metagame? It doesnt seem to be combo honestly. An unknown amount of hate is something I would rather not pilot. I would like to play (SIGH) the counterbalance top if I had the option of doing so. I can play thresh, what version of thresh runs this MD though? do any?

In a totally random metagame, Ichorid will either be a gold mine or a land mine. The players will either be ready for it in their sideboards or they won't be all that prepared. You might be able to pick up some hints by listening to hear what other players are doing, but that doesn't always work.

AfFoWnity is another deck that I find very few people to be prepared for. Even if they can really handle original Affinity builds, their decks will only be moderately prepared for the tricks that the deck uses. The real question is whether you would feel comfortable playing it on a relatively short notice or not, but there is plenty of insight in the Dreadnought Affinity topic to help you out.

As for Threshold, quite a few UGb Threshold decks run CB maindeck because they have the Thoughtseizes to help protect it and get it online. That doesn't mean that all of them do though. In addition, Thoughtseize is just wonderful against totally random decks, letting you remove the dangerous cards and letting you see what is coming all at the same time. Keep in mind that any Threshold deck can run CounterTop, but if you would like to use that engine, having black in the build would definitely be the way to go in an unknown metagame.

Regardless of this, the key is having fun without making it any less enjoyable for anybody else. Well, unless they don't like seeing Counterbalance or Ichorid and then that's just too bad. :)

I think I am going to test out Not Quite survival(its compedative right?), it seems rather good as you get to run 4 CB 3 top and 3 survival. Seems like your just playing better threshold.

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Originally Posted by undone

I think I am going to test out Not Quite survival(its compedative right?), it seems rather good as you get to run 4 CB 3 top and 3 survival. Seems like your just playing better threshold.

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That's probably a terrible choice. Talk to Nevery Easty about it. It seems the deck tries to do two things, and doesn't do either of them as well as the originals. Pick one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

It seems the deck tries to do two things, and doesn't do either of them as well as the originals. Pick one or the other.

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NQS isn't a bad deck, you just need a lot of experience with it to do well: there are just so many choices to be made each turn and so many possibilities to screw things up.
Also, to clear something up: the hybridized concept was actually just included in order to have access to more broken engines when you happen to not have one of the standard NQG Engines (read: CounterTop, Dark Confidant) running which makes the deck more flexible and more powerful. For sure you don't have the same silver bullets as a standard Survival Deck has, but that's more because you don't need them than anything else: just get out more Goyfs and the eventual random removal/Wonder/Genesis/counter and beat face - that random Artefact/Enchantment that will eventually pop up can still be handled by your counters, right? Survival isn't meant to be a source of control in this deck but rather something to support your aggro-gameplan. You aren't reliant on it, it's just good when you have it as it ups the amount of scary turn2 plays you have... just like Counterbalance or Dark Confidant.
Also, the point that you're doing something worse than standard NQG is moot: you still have your consistent cantrip/cheap dudes/free counters shell but trade some protection/utility (no Thoughtseize) for more brokenness.

For referrence, here's the thread featuring more explanations.

That being said, I still wouldn't recommend the deck to someone who hasn't spent lots of time preparing and testing with it - amongst others because the deck is rather inefficient in terms of effort/reward ratios.