BW Maralen of the Mornsong
I found Maralen of the Mornsong on gatherer recently, and immediately thought about how good it is with a lot of cards in D&T like vial, karakas, and mom. You can vial maralen into play during your opponent's end step (or in response to a brainstorm!) and tutor up karakas, then bounce it before your opponent gets a chance to use it. Here's what I'm testing now:
1 Swamp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Rishadan Port
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
3 Dark Confidant
4 Wasteland
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Dark Depths
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Maralen of the Mornsong
4 Karakas
1 Vampire Hexmage
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scrubland
Sideboard
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Bitterblossom
1 Containment Priest
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Palace Jailer
I decided to go in a more bomb-oriented direction with this list compared to actual D&T. The deck still has the mana denial package of port + waste + thalia, but most of its creatures can win the game on their own backed up by a mom or thoughtseize. I took out flickerwisp because it isn't such a bomb, and this deck could be winning the game instead of disrupting the opponent at 3 mana. However, it could work nicely with maralen if you wanted to keep up karakas to save her from removal. Hexmage + depths wins the game if maralen survives for a couple turns, and hexmage is not dead on its own. I could splash red for Stranglehold, which is a lock with maralen--being a turn faster is good especially when you don't have vial+karakas going, but splashing a third color is rough on the manabase in a port+waste deck. If anyone has any suggestions for a better combo, that would be helpful. Mindcensor is not currently played in D&T, but it does help the mana denial plan and allows you to play maralen without a vial. I don't really play D&T, so I'm not sure if overhauling the deck in this way makes any sense, but it's been playing pretty well so far.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Cool idea. Seems like Leonin Arbiter could be fun here with the mana denial plan, so you can keep Maralen in play and just tutor for more stuff to vial in or depths combo while opponent loses 3 a turn
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Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
I considered arbiter, but letting your opponent tutor is pretty scary even if they have to pay 2 for it (which they will probably have by t3/t4).
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Inkfathom
I considered arbiter, but letting your opponent tutor is pretty scary even if they have to pay 2 for it (which they will probably have by t3/t4).
Welcome back aven mindcensor?
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
What matchups are you improving by adding this cuteness?
You lose 2 draw steps (1 was drawing Maralen, 1 to tutor), pay 3 life, use up a Vial activation, and use a land drop just to put Karakas in play (and bounce Maralen). Then next turn you can use up Vial again to finally tutor something you want, at the cost of having to tap Karakas again, losing a draw step, and paying 3 life.
That's a lot of resources and tempo spent to get 1 tutor effect. Is that too durdly? What matches does it help you win? When is it better than just vialing in Recruiter of the Guard in place of Maralen to tutor something right away (without losing a draw step, paying life, or needing some combo)?
In most cases it seems to make D&T worse.
Ideally you would use it to create a lock with Leonin Arbiter/Mindlock Orb. EOT Vial it in. Tutor up the other combo piece and cast it. Then opponent cannot draw cards for the rest of the game, while you can use Karakas or mana to break the lock on your turn.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
BW Prison
//Creatures: 22
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Maralen of the Mornsong
1 Aven Mindcensor
//Spells: 10
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
//Artifacts: 7
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Stranglehold
//Lands: 21
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scrubland
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Example: You have Aether Vial and Karakas in play. EOT Vial in Maralen. On your turn, pay 3 life to tutor for Mindlock Orb. Cast Orb. Opponent can't draw cards, tutor or fetch for the rest of the game and loses 3 life per turn. You can bounce Maralen on your upkeep to dodge the lock, then Vial her back in after you draw. Even without Karakas out, if you're at higher life or have stronger board presence you will win.
Arbiter can also set up a lock if you blow up his lands with Wastelands and Ghost Quarters.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
You might be right, but a few things:
-Preventing your opponent from drawing cards is super relevant for D&T going into the late game.
-You're not tutoring up karakas just to get one other tutor, you're doing it so you can prevent your opponent from cantripping while you probably get the combo. It is slow, but a repeatable tutor effect that also disrupts your opponent is powerful
-I was considering stranglehold for the lock with maralen, like I mentioned in the OP, but I figured you probably win anyway if your opponent can't kill maralen.
-It would improve control and combo matchups by putting a clock on your opponent (uncounterable if you use thespian's stage) while also disrupting them. It's a slow clock, and it may not be the best disruption card, but the combination of both makes it appealing to me.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
BW Prison
Example: You have Aether Vial and Karakas in play. EOT Vial in Maralen. On your turn, pay 3 life to tutor for Mindlock Orb. Cast Orb. Opponent can't draw cards, tutor or fetch for the rest of the game and loses 3 life per turn. You can bounce Maralen on your upkeep to dodge the lock, then Vial her back in after you draw. Even without Karakas out, if you're at higher life or have stronger board presence you will win.
Arbiter can also set up a lock if you blow up his lands with Wastelands and Ghost Quarters.
If you've wasted your opponent off of 2 mana, you've probably won. Thalia by herself is basically a lock in that situation. I don't think leonin + maralen is worth going for.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Inkfathom
-Preventing your opponent from drawing cards is super relevant for D&T going into the late game.
Karakas+Maralen doesn't stop their draw step. It counters cantrips, but they still get to draw.
If you want to foil cantripping, there's already Spirit of the Labyrinth. Spirit and Notion Thief see little Legacy success. I guess trumping the odd Brainstorm isn't good enough to have a mediocre slot other times.
Quote:
-I was considering stranglehold for the lock with maralen, like I mentioned in the OP, but I figured you probably win anyway if your opponent can't kill maralen.
Why would you win anyway? It's much worse without Stranglehold. They get normal draw steps and several turns of tempo to stabilize. You lose 3 life each turn to tutor (instead of draw), which could cause you to lose first before you can tutor enough cards to win through whatever they draw and play. Maralen only seems worth it if you're playing to lock them out of ALL draws for the rest of the game.
Quote:
-You're not tutoring up karakas just to get one other tutor, you're doing it so you can prevent your opponent from cantripping while you probably get the combo. It is slow, but a repeatable tutor effect that also disrupts your opponent is powerful
It's repeatable... but costs a draw step, 3 life, a Vial activation, and Karakas use each time. It's resource-intensive. You don't profit on the first tutor, only after the 2nd or 3rd, so it's only good in very slow grindy games where you can afford to durdle and have a lot of life to spare. If Karakas, Vial or Maralen get killed it can be awkward.
Is it win-more? Does it need an already-winning position to work (Vial at 3, unused creature in hand, high enough life, no threats to answer on board, land drop/Karakas to spare)? When you don't have an active Vial, how bad is that Maralen in hand?
Is Volrath's Stronghold + Recruiter of the Guard a cleaner repeatable tutor effect for long games? You could run a singleton tutorable Spirit of the Labyrinth to foil cantrips too. That has the upsides of the Maralen+Karakas interaction without the downsides (risking giving your opponent tutors, paying life, needing to use up Vial and Karakas activations).
Maralen has a lot of downsides. To justify the deck slot, I think you need to abuse it to lock out all draws.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Maralen by herself is powerful. Stopping all card draws is significant. Almost every deck has some form of card draw. Blue get cantrips, black splashes blue for draw or uses griselbrand, green gets sylvan library, white and red are left out but still thats a significant part of the meta. Green also has he green glimpse for elves.
It's worth testing. Really you can take the stock D&T list and cut 5 cards. Add 4x Maralen and 1x mind lock orb. Just test that. D&T already runs karakas and vial. Also, D&T protects Maralen well with Mom.
Here is the major question though. Is it going to win you games you are losing? I dont know enough about the D&T matchups to know what its weak against. If this does strengthen those matchups, it's worth it. Otherwise, maybe just consider a separate deck for Maralen?
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apple713
Maralen by herself is powerful.
By herself she sucks. Opponent tutors every turn.
Vial + Maralen + Stranglehold is very powerful. It needs combo pieces: Vial (flash so you tutor before opponent) and Karakas/Stranglehold (stop opponent from tutoring).
I tried to break this card in multiple formats 10 years ago, when Maralen and Orb were printed. It was harder than I thought. Too many "oops I gave the other guy a free win". By all means test it, but there are significant downsides.
Quote:
Stopping all card draws is significant.
Spirit of Labyrinth does that too. Death and Taxes usually doesn't run it because it doesn't help win games they would be losing, and sometimes it's too vanilla.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
By herself she sucks. Opponent tutors every turn.
Vial + Maralen +
Stranglehold is very powerful. It needs combo pieces: Vial (flash so you tutor before opponent) and Karakas/Stranglehold (stop opponent from tutoring).
I tried to break this card in multiple formats 10 years ago, when Maralen and Orb were printed. It was harder than I thought. Too many "oops I gave the other guy a free win". By all means test it, but there are significant downsides.
She's powerful in the sense of preventing card draws when you can vial her in. She's horrible if you have to play her and give the opponent the first tutor. I absolutely agree.
The difference between dedicating a deck to her and adding a few slots to an already proven deck is that D&T protects it very well, it will surprise the opponent, and with Vial, there shouldn't be any "Opps I gave the other guy a win."
The downside is that with 4x in the deck it will clog your hand and you will have dead cards sometimes. I think what will happen is that if after testing 4x Maralen, it works, the ideal number will be 2x Maralen 1x mind lock orb. You may even decide that it's a 3 card combo coming in from the sideboard.
Also, if you are splashing blue / red just for mind lock orb or stranglehold I think stranglehold is better since enchantments are maybe harder to deal with than artifacts. Strangleholds added ability is more or less irrelevant.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Honestly I'd attempt to build the Leonin Arbiter/Mind Censor/Ghost Quarter D&T deck; then have Maralen as an interesting "lol you have to pay a bunch of mana to search the top 4 of your library" kinda card. It's an interesting lock that is unconditional, unlike SotL. Arbiter/Censor/Ghost Quarter was already a D&T variant that occasionally had Top-8s that were significant (though it's probably been years.) Given that; I'd consider taking that shell, adding Maralen and changing up the mana base to support her; rather than build around her.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
Arbiter/Censor/Ghost Quarter was already a D&T variant that occasionally had Top-8s that were significant (though it's probably been years.) Given that; I'd consider taking that shell, adding Maralen and changing up the mana base to support her; rather than build around her.
would love to see this function with maralen.
here's a winning path/quarter/mindcensor/arbiter D&T list from september, 2018:
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/123773
i always loved the mangara interaction, so if you have all the pieces, jam in one mangara...
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
If you want to foil cantripping, there's already
Spirit of the Labyrinth. Spirit and
Notion Thief see little Legacy success. I guess trumping the odd Brainstorm isn't good enough to have a mediocre slot other times.
Spirit sees some play in D&T.
Quote:
Why would you win anyway? It's much worse without
Stranglehold. They get normal draw steps and several turns of tempo to stabilize. You lose 3 life each turn to tutor (instead of draw), which could cause you to lose first before you can tutor enough cards to win through whatever they draw and play. Maralen only seems worth it if you're playing to lock them out of ALL draws for the rest of the game.
If they're aggro/tempo, you're not playing maralen unless you're totally stabilized. If they're control, they will probably have a removal spell for maralen if they're ahead or even on cards. If they're combo and you're not dead, they need to find their combo and maralen hinders that significantly.
However, you're right that it does take many turns, and you're more likely to need to tutor karakas if it's a 2-card combo. Also, having to attack with the 20/20 takes an additional turn. I'll test both and see. I'm still worried about the opponent's ability to counter stranglehold and the potential manabase issues that come along with it.
Also, stranglehold is WAY better than mindlock orb since you still get the tutor when it's out and you don't need a karakas to bounce and vial in maralen every turn.
I'll try the arbiter/ghost quarter/mindcensor version, seems like a good idea if you're running mindcensor anyway. Still don't think I'd play maralen with no vial and no mindcensor on board but it's an option in a pinch.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Inkfathom
I'll try the arbiter/ghost quarter/mindcensor version, seems like a good idea if you're running mindcensor anyway. Still don't think I'd play maralen with no vial and no mindcensor on board but it's an option in a pinch.
It may be worth asking about Maralen in the D&T forums. Maralen was last discussed in 2008, over 10 years ago. Below is a link to a deck that used black splash (for other things). Above it was the discussion of Maralen.
Black Splash Manabase
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post200395
Maralen Discussion
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post268441
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apple713
She's powerful in the sense of preventing card draws when you can vial her in.
Spirit of the Labyrinth...
Sanctum Prelate on 1...
Quote:
Also, if you are splashing blue / red just for mind lock orb or stranglehold I think stranglehold is better since enchantments are maybe harder to deal with than artifacts.
Stranglehold. Mindlock Orb. Stranglehold is best, but Enchantment and the 2nd mode aren't the reason.
Quote:
She's horrible if you have to play her and give the opponent the first tutor. I absolutely agree.
She's also horrible as a dead card in hand, which is more than 50% of the time (e.g. you don't have a Vial on 3, Vial gets killed, you're low in life, you're behind on board). She takes a spot. You would have drawn something else.
Maralen's been in print over a decade. D&T, Vial, and Aven Mindcensor all existed then. Stranglehold was printed not long after. People have brewed her in different formats over the years. The effect is cute and can win games, but there's a reason she never made it to competitive Legacy.
By all means try her out. I just think you'll find a bigger downside than you see on paper. The deck probably wants at most 2 copies of her and 1 tutorable Stranglehold. The games she does win, you have to ask yourself if Spirit of the Labyrinth or Sanctum Prelate would have still led to a win.
This is SaffronOlive's Modern brew with Aether Vial and CoCo for instant speed Maralens. He ran Leonin Arbiter/Ghost Quarter combo. He also lost 80% of matches...
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...friends-modern
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Uhh yeah, that deck is horrible. It was ported to Modern which is a terrible comparison and the deck has lots of hot garbage in it...
Either way, I'm not trying to say Maralen is going to break the format or anything, BUT I'd at least like to see this guy try and give it a fair shot. There are many strategies that dont catch on until widespread adoption, but they all had to start somewhere.
If he was trying to devote a deck to her, no thats a bad idea in legacy. Easier combos, less mana intensive, and that are more consistent already exist. As an add in to an already existing deck, it's worth investigating.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
One problem with the stranglehold plan is that the deck kinda has a hard time getting to 4 mana. 24 lands with 4 waste and 2 ghost quarter isn't that many, and there have been a few situations when I could vial in maralen but I had to tutor for karakas because I only had 3 lands. I'll try adding another land and see what happens.
Re: BW Maralen of the Mornsong
Id play shadow of doubt before id play stranglehold. And i wouldnt play that either :-)
I think avenmindcensor is fine. I like how maralen shuts off terminus completely. Tutor for councils judgement will happen more often than not though.
