Re: Jund Dreadhorde Shadow
I like it, and Jund seems to be the best Shadow shell currently in Modern. I think you need a minimum of 2 Dismember though, not only to increase life loss (you aren't playing Street Wraiths) but to just have better chances at getting Arcanist/Shadow/Goyf through in combat. I also think Mutagenic Growth is a serious option for the deck, because you always want something to push damage through and a way to quasi-protect your DA from Bolts. I don't think that's a major concern, but I think in some matchups DA will be critical to fighting the late game.
Just my opinion, but I would go:
-1 Inquisition
-1 Fatal Push
(open slot)
+2 Dismember
+1 Mutagenic Growth
I agree, Abundant Harvest is very, very good. Harvest and Traverse are so much better than the blue cantrips in modern. I almost suggested Once Upon a Time (womp womp) but I remembered it was banned.
EDIT: Is Footfalls better than Temur Battle Rage? I know haste is a pretty big deal, but the double strike is basically a combo-kill with Goyf and Shadow. I can't help but think that your graveyard will be stuffed but without a decent way to take advantage of it, like Gurmag Angler. Goyf will be huge, sure, but that doesn't really take any effort. Maybe trimming something for 1x Angler could be good. *shrug* If we know one thing for sure, MH2 will shake up modern in a big way. If you're interested, I'm trying to explore an Esper Shadow build in the Grixis DS thread...I know it probably isn't as good as Jund, but I've always been partial to Esper colors.
Re: Jund Dreadhorde Shadow
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Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
-1 Inquisition
-1 Fatal Push
(open slot)
+2 Dismember
+1 Mutagenic Growth
This is totally reasonable and the idea of Mutagenic as like a miser protection spell for the DHA is pretty solid (it's still like a "mini TBR" if you are going for a kill, just to pump twice)
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EDIT: Is Footfalls better than Temur Battle Rage? I know haste is a pretty big deal, but the double strike is basically a combo-kill with Goyf and Shadow. I can't help but think that your graveyard will be stuffed but without a decent way to take advantage of it, like Gurmag Angler. Goyf will be huge, sure, but that doesn't really take any effort. Maybe trimming something for 1x Angler could be good. *shrug* If we know one thing for sure, MH2 will shake up modern in a big way. If you're interested, I'm trying to explore an Esper Shadow build in the Grixis DS thread...I know it probably isn't as good as Jund, but I've always been partial to Esper colors.
Without having Street Wraith in the deck to put a free creature in the yard I think the deck wants a little bit of extra help getting 4 card types for Traverse (bigger goyf is just a side-benefit). I also want the deck to be slightly more grindy than aggro so having the flexibility of the cycling rather than always being a pump spell seems appealing to me. TBR is the more stock choice.
Can't add Angler with Lurrus
Re: Jund Dreadhorde Shadow
I missed the enchantment-in-the-graveyard detail, so that's probably a good call, not just for Traverse but bigger Goyfs. I missed the Angler/Lurrus interplay...I forget that the mana value is actually 7, not 1, on that card. It also still seems weird to not have Street Wraiths, but again the tradeoff is Lurrus.
Speaking of Lurrus...is it good enough to have even with the 3 mana 'tutor' investment? I suppose it breaks open games that go longer.
Re: Jund Dreadhorde Shadow
" the cost of playing Lurrus in your modern deck is building it correctly " ~ Tom White / McWinSauce
Even with the tax it's still one of the best things in the format for any fair deck to be doing
Re: Jund Dreadhorde Shadow
That's fair. Now I need to figure out how to build Esper around it...if I can't have Gurmag or Geist, maybe Delver?
Re: Jund Dreadhorde Shadow
With the MH2 fully spoiled I think I want to try the list in OP with
-4 Shadow
+4 Dragons Rage Channeler
Flex Slot = Kroxa
And with the additional delirium help from DRC it might be possible to cut 1-2 of the footfall crater for something else
Also some number of unholy heat can possibly work their way into the spell suite because this version of the deck doesn't have very good answers to things like Murktide Regent or Gurmag Angler
A bunch of Natural State (or possibly nature's claim) seems pretty good in the SB of this
A problem with building the deck this way is that you are basically totally cold to a rest in peace but after sb you can discard/destroy it etc
Re: Jund Dreadhorde Shadow
With Arcanist incentivizing you to play 1-mana cards, maybe playing some amount of Tarfire might be good. It feeds delirium for DRC and makes Goyf bigger. It's probably just worse than Fatal Push though, and you (likely) don't have trouble hitting delirium, right?
Re: Jund Dreadhorde Shadow
Why are we cutting ds for drc instead of goyf for drc?
Goyf as a graveyard reliant medium sized threat seems more comparable. Traverse isn’t that much better than the black cantrips like cling to dust or unearth. Sideboard enchantment removal is nice but having a premier threat that doesn’t care is better imo.
Moving to rakdos seems attractive. Without basic Forest you can have a much more reasonable manabase, and you could probably afford to play a few md kroxa. Cling to dust over traverse + less need to always shock could make the terrible burn mu better, and BB could be a good way to dodge rip.
Re: Jund Dreadhorde Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reeplcheep
Why are we cutting ds for drc instead of goyf for drc? Goyf as a graveyard reliant medium sized threat seems more comparable.
Possible but without cards like dismember or wraith etc idk if shadow is actually ~that~ good
At least Goyf can reliably be played turn 2
Overall I think the more difficult thing about the threats is trying to justify not playing Ragavan in the deck, possibly you can argue that the number of red sources is a little bit too low to reliably play it on turn 1
I've seen a Grixis list from Gerry T / Daryl Ayers that is trying to execute a similar gameplan and maybe that deck is just better
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Traverse isn’t that much better than the black cantrips like cling to dust or unearth.
If you cut it for Cling or Unearth the manabase collapses, the fact that both Traverse and Harvest can play as G: Find a land 100% of the time is what allows you to play a landcount this low. If you swap them for Cling then you have to add lands and then you lose a lot of the upside of the pseudo-cardadvantage-xerox advantage
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Sideboard enchantment removal is nice but having a premier threat that doesn’t care is better imo.
Sure but I think those effects are just really good in general at the moment (1 mana instant destroy urzas saga etc)
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Moving to rakdos seems attractive. Without basic Forest you can have a much more reasonable manabase
Already addressed this
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, and you could probably afford to play a few md kroxa.
You can already play 1 as a traverse target anyway, theres only 1 basic forest (land that doesn't make R or B)
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Cling to dust over traverse + less need to always shock could make the terrible burn mu better
As I said before cutting traverse makes the manabase arguably worse and cling doesn't play very well with DHA or Kroxa. With green mana in the deck you can always play Weather the Storm or Life Goes On etc
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and BB could be a good way to dodge rip.
Bitterblossom? Sure but the jund version could also play that
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With Arcanist incentivizing you to play 1-mana cards, maybe playing some amount of Tarfire might be good. It feeds delirium for DRC and makes Goyf bigger. It's probably just worse than Fatal Push though, and you (likely) don't have trouble hitting delirium, right?
Yeah getting delirium shouldn't be too hard but it's not an unreasonable suggestion
Edit:
Another relatively crazy idea I just had is cut Tarmogoyf for Nimble Mongoose (so the creatures are 4 Goose 4 DRC 4 Arcanist)
DRC helps to turn it on pretty fast and the option of turn 1 "I am 100% blocking your ragavan and there's nothing you can do" (in a situation where you don't have a removal spell) seems decent
Tarmogoyf doesn't die to bolt but it does cost twice as much mana and it's pretty hard to keep it alive even against the UR decks with Unholy Heat, and other lists have Prismatic E / Push / Path etc
(Asmo as well)
Edit again
I also quite like the idea of making this 4C because Prismatic Ending and Path to Exile are both pretty big additions (Naya I think wouldn't be good because vs combo / control I think you probably need the discard spells and being able to traverse for kroxa seems really strong) but it's difficult to figure out the mana
If I copy the 4C shadow decks then maybe something like this?
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Forest
11 fetchlands
4 Goose
4 DRC
4 Arcanist
1 Kroxa
4 Bauble
4 Bolt
4 Harvest
4 Traverse
4 Prismatic Ending
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Path to Exile
ill test it anyway
edit: aha I just realised if you flashback Prismatic Ending with arcanist it only exiles ornithopters
maybe not such a good idea then but I still really like having the white removal
- Good vs sanctifier en vec which you are otherwise pretty screwed against
- There's no good 1 mana spell in jund that's a good removal for both Shadow/Scourge and also Murktide/Stormwing (-> Path)