Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

And like, again, and I know you'll just keep ignoring this question, but why do you think Wizards wants Legacy to be more accessible?

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What evidence do you have that they don't? They created legacy as a format, and they routinely ban cards to keep legacy diverse and healthy. Hell they even banned cards just because they felt those cards made the format less fun to play, so why despite this do you think that they would be fine with a beloved paper format either failing completely or be taken over by unsanctioned legal proxy events.

An assertion that Wizards is no longer interested in legacy as a format requires supporting evidence. The only "evidence" you gave so far is that they won't break the reserve list and thus they must not want legacy to be accessible, but several other posters have pointed out to you, that this doesn't prove your assertion and there are other reasons why they may be not inclined to break the reserve list.

Also do you have any numbers to support your assertion that legacy players do not spend much money buying newer cards? And even if this unproven assertion holds true, what makes you think that that even a few million dollars in sales for printing some card board wouldn't be worth it for them? A secret lair featuring these duals (lands that would be legal only in vintage/legacy/commander) would still almost certainly outsell every other secret lair released to date. And it would take them no more effort to do than any other secret lair.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

What evidence do you have that they don't? An assertion like that requires supporting evidence. The only reason you gave so far is that they won't break the reserve list and thus they must not want legacy to be accessible, but several other posters have pointed out to you, that this doesn't prove your assertion and there are other reasons why they may be not inclined to break the reserve list.

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I'm getting a little tired of you saying I said things I didn't say, but I'm going to chalk it up to poor reading comprehension rather than malice.

The evidence I have that they don't care very much about supporting Legacy as a format is that they... don't do much to support Legacy as a format. "An assertion like that requires supporting evidence" well no, it doesn't, it's literally a null position. You are making a positive claim that a party wants to do X thing which, noticeably, it is not currently doing.

You are the one that should be making a positive case for why Wizards wants to support Legacy or should want to do so, more than it currently does, because that is literally the foundation you have built your argument on.

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Also do you have any numbers to support your assertion that legacy players do not spend much money buying newer cards? And even if this unproven assertion holds true, what makes you think that that even a few million dollars in sales for printing some card board wouldn't be worth it for them? A secret lair featuring these lands would almost certainly vastly outsell every other secret lair released to date. And it would take them no more effort to do than any other secret lair.

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You know you sure love tossing out baseless assertions for someone complaining that everyone else has to defend stuff that's obvious.

I am going to simply assert that Legacy players buy less product than other players because it's really obviously true and you have given me no reason to waste time digging up numbers for you when you're incapable of reading posts or making good faith, logically coherent arguments. And love to make baseless assertions about how much people would love and want to own your shitty fantasy card designs.

No the null position is the default position. Wizards created legacy, monitor it, ban unfun cards from it, and make an effort to keep it a diverse format with many viable archetypes and strategies.

If you are going to claim that they do not care about legacy, then you should be able to provide evidence to that end.

If you are going to claim that these lands wouldnt make Wizards money and wouldn't be worth their time to print and sell, then you should have some evidence that legacy players don't spend money on magic.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

No the null position is the default position. Wizards created legacy, monitor it, ban unfun cards from it, and make an effort to keep it a diverse format with many viable archetypes and strategies.

If you feel that they do not care about legacy, then you should be able to provide evidence to that end.

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What do you imagine that evidence would look like?

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If you feel that these lands wouldnt make Wizards money and wouldn't be worth their time to print and sell, then you should have some evidence that legacy players don't spend money on magic.

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Uh what

Do you realize how many unspoken assumptions you've packed into this or nah

Besides which this is also like, again, what would that look like to you? Besides the sales numbers which idk maybe that's available somewhere, you can go look it up yourself tho.

That's precisely my point. You earlier said that Wizards won't print these lands because cards aimed at legacy players wouldn't make them money, and they don't have any interest in seeing legacy be accessible enough to allow sanctioned paper legacy to survive. I asked you for evidence for either of this and you don't have any.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

That's precisely my point. You earlier said that Wizards won't print these lands because cards aimed at legacy players wouldn't make them money, and they don't have any interest in seeing legacy be accessible enough to allow sanctioned paper legacy to survive. I asked you for evidence for either of this and you don't have any.

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It's funny because what actually happened was that I outlined in painstaking detail, including actual data, why reprinting the duals wouldn't actually make Wizards that much money.

I guess I "have no evidence" that the shittier duals you just made up wouldn't make a billion dollars but again it's pretty laughable for you to pretend the default position is that they would. I can't prove a negative because that's not how reality works my dude. You can keep saying people would be clamoring for your shitty card designs all day but the burden is on you to actually make a convincing case and supply evidence for it.

But you don't want to do that because you're lazy I guess which is also why I presume you don't bother reading my posts before making up some position to argue with.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

...wouldn't make a billion dollars but again it's pretty laughable for you to pretend the default position is that they would.

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A billion dollars? Seriously? Good straw man.

You argued that these cards wouldnt sell well enough to be worth being made. By saying that it wouldn't be worth it for Wizards to make these lands, you weren't saying these won't sell a billion, you were saying they wouldn't sell as much as other secret lairs or commander decks or the bevy of other products they make.

This is just going in circles. I'm out.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I thought it was a discussion about whether we think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

And like, again, and I know you'll just keep ignoring this question, but why do you think Wizards wants Legacy to be more accessible?

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The latter is not even important to answer the initial question. You are behaving like Kanye simply not wanting to understand, why he is called a gayfish. "Come on, just get it man"

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Originally Posted by Grizzlenasty

The latter is not even important to answer the initial question. You are behaving like Kanye simply not wanting to understand, why he is called a gayfish. "Come on, just get it man"

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What the fuck are you talking about? How is whether Wizards wants Legacy to be more accessible not important to the question of whether they'll print near-duals in general, much less ones specifically aimed at eternal formats only through a Commander product or whatever? Like literally Clark's basic argument is that.

So just like. Again. What the actual fuck are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

A billion dollars? Seriously? Good straw man.

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Throw out a number then.

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You argued that these cards wouldnt sell well enough to be worth being made.

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No I didn't but we've established that you can't read so this claim isn't surprising.

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You weren't saying these won't sell a billion, you were saying they wouldn't sell as much as other secret lairs or commander decks or the bevy of other products they make.

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No I didn't but we've established that you can't read so this claim isn't surprising.

If you want to know what I said I recommend reading my posts as a good starting point, just a heads up

Leaving a number of tangents aside regarding whether Wizards wants to fuck, marry, or kill Legacy and how likely it is that a person will buy one box over another (for which we don't have any data afaik), I guess I've learned over the past several pages that it's contentious to assert that selling things to customers can make you money.

I'm just finished; I got nothing.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

That's irrelevant to the thread. This isn't a discussion about how to make cEDH cheaper and more accessible. It's about how to make legacy more accessible and able to support sanctioned paper events again.

More duals that are only usable in Commander does nothing to make paper legacy more accessible.

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That may come as a surprise to you, but the main demand for duals is Commander. If you want Wizards to reprint duals, go convince Commander players.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Leaving a number of tangents aside regarding whether Wizards wants to fuck, marry, or kill Legacy and how likely it is that a person will buy one box over another (for which we don't have any data afaik), I guess I've learned over the past several pages that it's contentious to assert that selling things to customers can make you money.

I'm just finished; I got nothing.

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Some of y’all just refuse to understand basic economics.

“If one Modern Horizons set makes Wizards money, then they should release ten Modern Horizons sets every year! They’ll make ten times as much money!”

Like I don’t know how to explain to y’all that demand isn’t a limitless resource and customers don’t have bottomless pockets

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

What the fuck are you talking about? How is whether Wizards wants Legacy to be more accessible not important to the question of whether they'll print near-duals in general, much less ones specifically aimed at eternal formats only through a Commander product or whatever? Like literally Clark's basic argument is that.

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We can only theorycraft why they would be inclined to do that. Nothing we could come up with will satisfy you as you are obviously just here to say "Nope, not gonna happen". Sooner or later they have to print near duals or real duals, IF they want to keep certain formats alive and accessible. IF they don't, that's fine. Nothing I can do about. I've already gotten my power and at least a dozen of each individual dual when they were more reasonably priced. Like my most expensive dual was a volc priced at 23 EUR. I'd be sad for not finding anybody to play the game with unless I lend them my decks or incentivize them to to simply proxy some up, but that's about it. I can accept that.

So much effort to purposefully understand us wrong. Commander is one way they could do it. Eternal Masters CXVIII, Scamalot Lair or handing them out as FNM prices another. These are just already known possible contenders for a place where it might happen if it happens at all. I'm pretty sure Wizards could come up with more. They are creative when it comes to sellable product.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

That may come as a surprise to you, but the main demand for duals is Commander. If you want Wizards to reprint duals, go convince Commander players.

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Not sure if this would be enough. Commander players could get along with duals way worse than what hyperefficient Legacy needs. They are not triple dazing until turn 4 for example. Heck I've seen some of these filthy casuals play multiple ETB tapped lands into Back to basics *shudders*

Since this is a quality thread:

https://i.imgflip.com/5e6j2f.jpg

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Originally Posted by Zoid

Since this is a quality thread

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Like at least we can say, when the mods finally lock up the thread, the comments accumulate more value over time and incentivize forum members into posting more. A prestigious thread so to speak. Let's call it the "Reserve Thread"

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Originally Posted by Grizzlenasty

Not sure if this would be enough. Commander players could get along with duals way worse than what hyperefficient Legacy needs. They are not triple dazing until turn 4 for example. Heck I've seen some of these filthy casuals play multiple ETB tapped lands into Back to basics *shudders*

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Well, then that's your answer.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlenasty

Like at least we can say, when the mods finally lock up the thread, the comments accumulate more value over time and incentivize forum members into posting more. A prestigious thread so to speak. Let's call it the "Reserve Thread"

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This is a quality post. It's like the limited-edition Louis Vuitton of posts.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlenasty

We can only theorycraft why they would be inclined to do that. Nothing we could come up with will satisfy you as you are obviously just here to say "Nope, not gonna happen". Sooner or later they have to print near duals or real duals, IF they want to keep certain formats alive and accessible. IF they don't, that's fine. Nothing I can do about. I've already gotten my power and at least a dozen of each individual dual when they were more reasonably priced. Like my most expensive dual was a volc priced at 23 EUR. I'd be sad for not finding anybody to play the game with unless I lend them my decks or incentivize them to to simply proxy some up, but that's about it. I can accept that.

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So then. Whether they want to keep Legacy accessible is, by your own description, directly relevant to whether they want to reprint duals, or near-duals or whatever.

So the opposite of what yous aid.

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So much effort to purposefully understand us wrong. Commander is one way they could do it. Eternal Masters CXVIII, Scamalot Lair or handing them out as FNM prices another. These are just already known possible contenders for a place where it might happen if it happens at all. I'm pretty sure Wizards could come up with more. They are creative when it comes to sellable product.

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Yeah I don't think anyone's arguing that they couldn't print functional duals if they wanted to. In fact people seem to have even stopped arguing that they couldn't just break the reserve list if they wanted, which is good because that argument was dumb.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlenasty

Like at least we can say, when the mods finally lock up the thread, the comments accumulate more value over time and incentivize forum members into posting more. A prestigious thread so to speak. Let's call it the "Reserve Thread"

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l17WAyNAHfQ