Apex, apparently you didn't hear a damn word I said.
WIZARDS SHORT RAN THE PRODUCT. Premier stores in the NW are getting shafted, getting maybe 1/8-1/10 of what they initially ordered, because of SUPPLY.
This basically means your entire "cartel" idea is complete fallacy. SCG knows what happens with Wizards, they are a DIRECT buyer. They knocked up the price knowing they won't be reprinted, and others followed suit. You know who started it? The Ebay sellers that bought them from the Con in the first place.
So rather than arguing economics, I suggest you take a minute to read everyone's post in here, as I know what I'm talking about from both first hand and insider experience.
Product is short supplied, after already being set in a short supply to begin with. Now the prices are up, and people happen to be using SCG (and Ebay, for that matter), as a basis. It's called marketing.
Originally Posted by YuanTi
Is there any way to track how many of those SCG has sold at 100? The empirics would pretty much settle any debate.
increased demand, fixed supply, gg?Simple Supply and Demand is not fully adequate in explaining this scenario, you need more detailed explanation and models to account for all parameters.
oh:Is it possible that due to short term inelasticities in supply and demand that there is a range of prices where quantity demanded meets quantity supplied? If you would pay $15 for a meal, would you pay $16?the finished auction price for a unit was significantly lower than $100. Now many ebay auctions are around $100.
(tip: perfect competition doesn't exist)
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Not really. On preorder items they always put a handful up for sale and then automatically restock and change the price on depending on how quickly the last batch sold. So there's no way to even guess at what their entire inventory is for the item.Is there any way to track how many of those SCG has sold at 100?
If I'm Putin, you're GWB, claiming "we are giving you Freedom!" while killing people left and right. I didn't even start posting those stuff about being civil, until you started to insert random thinly veiled verbal attacks. Maybe you are that much of a dick in the real world and are still tolerated amongst your peers (I doubt it), but other people might not welcome the way you formulate your sentences.
Also, seriously people, you say I don't read your posts (and you would be wrong, I do read them), and then you ignore what I posted.
I've mentioned PERFECTLY INELASTIC SUPPLY like a bajillion times. This would be the bajillionth + 1 time of me mentioning it.
On the cartel issue: cartel is the MODEL. I never claimed SCG is in a cartel with anyone. I said the MODEL can work in this situation, given the circumstances (and I did say it's not really a cartel, maybe about I dunno, a bajillion times) where different firms behave as a whole and can act like a pseudo-cartel in their price setting (I specifically mentioned that it's not a real cartel, as I said, it doesn't satisfy one of the fundamental assumptions of restricting output). Please, I welcome you to challenge my economics on this, please, show me where my MC doesn't match my MR. Quit claiming "fallacy", "vague" and "meaningless" if you didn't even understand what I was just talking about!
And of course I "resort to authority". Would you expect to talk about laboratory biotechnology indepth with someone whos only got the faintest idea of how it works, much less the nitty gritty? Do you talk about the new Oligonucleotide Mircoarrays release and how it might speed up 2-3 of your regular tests? Fuck no! You can bitch all you want about how you are a dropout and can still "hang with the pros", but in the end, you are just a phony without any real knowledge (there, ad hom attack thrown in for free).
Man, seriously, pick up an econ book, read it and then do some of those excersises in the back, and then maybe you'll think differently afterwards. I've got my degrees (double majored in Stats and Biochem, minored in Econ), so I'm comfortable with my credentials, and I believe I am qualified. So cease away.
I would, but if I would pay $15 for a meal, would I pay $200? Hells no. The finished ebay auctions some time ago was significantly lower in price than when SCG published their price, like it finished around $30-50. And I also don't believe that's case, particularly since demand is not inelastic for this situation, as shown by the rising prices of finished auctions leading up to the SCG standard price.
(tip: I said that a bijillion times too, that's why I said it's not as simple as simple supply and demand off wiki. Thanks for reading my post)
and what's going to happen now is that you will challenge me to put forth some "cogent" economics, while I will rehash my previous posts because they contain real economics theory, and then you will say that those are not real, and then I will say they are, some people will join in this conversation without knowing stuff, and some mod will come in and lock all of this up because it will just dissolve into a flamefest with big words.
There are two things I wanted to say in regards to this.
1.Not defending anystore, If they see that they are limited to two that is a farse. I know a store that got the two from Wizards and got two more each from other dist. because of the extremely limited print run by Wizards.
2. The local gaming store near me sold them for $80 to two different customers after being talked down by both customers (He originally wanted $100 and showed the two patrons what various websited and ebay was selling them for.
The return of a Legend(in his own words)
Does anyone know some more about the actual print run and if stores will be getting more shipments?
Is what the stores have as of now all they will get?
Thanks for any speculation or insight.
They're nice cards, but to be honest the "middle men" thing is rather annoying, as well as the actual supply. I really do enjoy comemorative stuff and ect., but to be honest this is haggis.
"Other people might not welcome the way you formulate your sentences".
Well, alright.
And this is pursuant to what, exactly? I'm not sure what institution you matriculated at, but repeating phrases without meaning or understanding does not a persuasive argument make.I've mentioned PERFECTLY INELASTIC SUPPLY like a bajillion times. This would be the bajillionth + 1 time of me mentioning it.
You would have to specify an actual argument for this to work. You've simply stated that the market would act as a pseudo-cartel, but without actually defending any specifics, you haven't explained why this is different from the natural tendency in any free market for sells to adjust price according to demand to maximize profits.On the cartel issue: cartel is the MODEL. I never claimed SCG is in a cartel with anyone. I said the MODEL can work in this situation, given the circumstances (and I did say it's not really a cartel, maybe about I dunno, a bajillion times) where different firms behave as a whole and can act like a pseudo-cartel in their price setting (I specifically mentioned that it's not a real cartel, as I said, it doesn't satisfy one of the fundamental assumptions of restricting output). Please, I welcome you to challenge my economics on this, please, show me where my MC doesn't match my MR. Quit claiming "fallacy", "vague" and "meaningless" if you didn't even understand what I was just talking about!
Actually, the answer here is either yes or inapplicable. Any actually qualified expert will either lower the level of technicality of an explanation to meet their audiences' expected knowledge level, or not try to explain it at all. You might've noticed, for instance, as you were going through school, that your teachers didn't simply jump into quantum mechanics from physics 101. If they had, they would've almost assuredly been met with blank stares. This would not be the students' fault for not knowing more about economics; this would be the lecturer's fault for misgauging their audience. Every great mind accepts this principle; if you want to use superior knowledge in a discussion or argument with those with less knowledge (assuming you have it), you must make that knowledge accessible and understandable. Frankly, I think your inability to understand this intuitively casts severe doubt on your competency in general, and if Milton Friedman and Stephen Hawking accept this principle, I think it's extremely, and of course, unjustifiably arrogant of you to think yourself better.And of course I "resort to authority". Would you expect to talk about laboratory biotechnology indepth with someone whos only got the faintest idea of how it works, much less the nitty gritty? Do you talk about the new Oligonucleotide Mircoarrays release and how it might speed up 2-3 of your regular tests? Fuck no!
You know, I live upon the pleasant banks of the Potomac. If you think a college degree from Generic U. is impressive, you must not at all be familiar with Greater Washington. I can't throw a rock without hitting someone with an Ivy degree. Frankly, sir, you're not terribly impressive. Only intellectual dwarfs actually think that slinging around, "I Have a major/minor in *blank* from a real life genuine college!" is an impressive form of argumentation.You can bitch all you want about how you are a dropout and can still "hang with the pros", but in the end, you are just a phony without any real knowledge (there, ad hom attack thrown in for free).
I would advise you to retreat to whatever hole you crawled out from.
Credentials do not convey understanding, and idiocy does not display it. That being the case, we've taken entirely the wrong tact, haven't we*?Man, seriously, pick up an econ book, read it and then do some of those excersises in the back, and then maybe you'll think differently afterwards. I've got my degrees (double majored in Stats and Biochem, minored in Econ), so I'm comfortable with my credentials, and I believe I am qualified. So cease away.
*You. This is not the actual 'we'.
I'm curious what school you actually matriculated at that you were taught that waving your arms, wiggling your fingers, and shouting, "I've got a degreeeeee" was compelling rhetoric.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
My local store has them for $34.99. They're out there, you just have to look to find a proper deal (as with anything).
If they don't have any then isn't what they are charging kinda pointless?
What? Didn't I just get done saying that they have them at the MSRP?
I graduated from the University of Toronto (number one rated University in Canada) with scholarships. I rejected offers from Cornell, Duke and Princeton because of financial issues (I really didn't want to pay the student loans), so I really doubt that I am as stupid as you are trying to make me look. You on the other hand, seem to think just by living around people that have Ivy degrees, somehow makes you more qualified in certain ways? And you say I'm full of myself.
Forgive me for this, since this is actually my fault, but I really did believe that I was speaking to someone that was versed in economics (since people that are not familiar with a certain issue usually don't come into a discussion so sure of themselves). I didn't even factor in the dropout part, since I assumed you must have learned it from somewhere, hence the jargons. So I guess I'll dumb it down. Excuse my expectations.Any actually qualified expert will either lower the level of technicality of an explanation to meet their audiences' expected knowledge level, or not try to explain it at all.
Now let's go step by step for the pseudo-cartel model:
SCG has more sway with buyers (consumers) than other retailers (sellers). Their pricing affects the market Standard Price (the price usually settled upon after market movements, set by supply and demand). I've used previous and current ebay auctions to show this.
Now due to the fact that SCG pricing also affects other smaller retailers, other retailers will adjust their price per unit. Ebay is once again, good at showing this. Therefore, you have a short term inflation of price for a specific item by everyone, and the standard price in this case, is actually arbitrarily set, without allowing for a market adjustment period, like many common commodities. This is the dick move part.
It could very well be, that the demand for the FTV unit is so high, that the price per unit goes well past that of $100, but that's a change in demand I cannot predict without looking at trends (plus, that's demand side theories, where I'm not on familiar grounds beyond the first couple of years). So we speak from the suppliers side (the retailers in this case), since the supplies of these FTV units are perfectly inelastic (they are fixed, since only a certain quality was produced, and barring reprints, will not introduce more goods into this system, so supply is very scarce), the best move from them is to keep in line with the SCG prices (why sell under and lose money when everyone else is selling higher?), and maybe holding on to their units and try and artificially increase demand. Now, we have a group of firms that are (somewhat) fixing the price of these units, given that supply is perfectly inelastic. That's why I said it can be modeled by a pseudo-cartel. Now, one more thing, the theory of cartel is actually not one that is 100% accepted by every economist (since economists usually come from 2 sides, the demand side, or the supply side), but it still exists in our world, so we use it. Again, I never said it's a cartel, that would imply collusion and the limiting of output of products, which we don't have (or in the latter case, seen any evidence of). But the jump in Standard Price and the fixing of prices can be modeled as such.
I said it wasn't Simple Supply and Demand because it's not. There are no perfect competition here, nor are the consumers actually equal. When one firm holds more sway with consumers than other firms, it creates a case that's more complicated.
Or maybe because I studied more supply side economics than demand side, so my theories don't mesh well with that of a everyday person's preconceived notions about economics.
I assumed that the out meant sold out. Sorry. You should buy them and sell them on ebay before the owner realizes he can sell them for more.My local store has them for $34.99. They're out there, you just have to look to find a proper deal (as with anything).
@ Apex.
Aren't you assuming that the price set by SCG is higher than what the market would be under a supply/demand explanation?
I don't know if you can use previous ebay auctions as proof of that since it appears that the extent of the limited supply wasn't fully known previously thus a proper cost wouldn't have been able to be reached.
But did this not speed up the process of price raising? I'm sure price would be less than what we see right now if SCG price was 60 instead of 100. It seems to me that sudden jump was not the careful reflection of supply and demand.
EDIT: It may eventually reach 100, but not this fast.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Well, if they are selling at a reasonable rate at 100 then they aren't charging too much.
One of the actualities of supply and demand, as it's reflected in reality rather than graphs, is that people are intelligent, and are going to try and be ahead of the curve. They're not going to simply wait and be a victim of events as they play out. Failing to appreciate this fact leads to disasters like the 70's.
Seriously. People keep complaining that SCG is altering the natural system of supply and demand, but people raising prices pre-emptively in anticipation of great demand, with fixed supply, is a completely natural and normal part of that process.
Also, number one school in Canada? I got the highest possible test scores on the Army aptitude tests, but at least I have the good grace to recognize a consolation prize when I see it.
Anyway, now that you've more or less presented your case in a relevant and tangible manner, allow me to destroy it;
MOTL lists the average price for Visara the Dreadful as being under 4.00$. SCG sells it at 8.00$; I found multiple sites selling for around half of that and slightly upwards within moments of Googling.
QED, Starcity does not set market prices. It follows that if this price stays, it must be due to other factors.
Also, no, I don't think I'm a genius because I associate with very well educated people on a regular basis. I've simply learned, long ago, that graduation from a good school is no cure for idiocy, and to tell the difference between someone who actually attended a top school and took advantage of it to learn as much as possible, and a blowhard who staggered through in a haze of frat parties and pity B's. Guess which camp you fall into?
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I was going to read the entire thread before commenting that I think that it's a bit pricey... but after about 3 posts of TIBA trying to argue for the sake of arguing, I didn't care to read any more.
It's fear and greed that drive prices and up and down, doesn't really take much of anything to figure that out. "Fear" that instills in the buyer to "buy" the "greedy" prices that are charged by second or third party dealers. I don't mind appreciation, but to be honest these sorts of market activities are counter intuitive for newer players or those on a budget.
To be honest, I believe that ultimately things like the high mark ups in Standard (and other products like this) will ultimately hurt the game more than help. Sure it assists dealers, but really for noobs with little procket change the Standard environment is supposed to be the "noob tournament."
Although equally these have to do with WoTC as equally as people that raise prices up high like Starcity.
Capitalism is nice, but it also hurts in trying to get people introduced to the game without a huge upfront cost to be actually be competitive. This is something that I see fading, and a dangerous thing. It could also be easily helped with power creeping commons/uncommins though and moving towards powering up draft to be more equal to constructed blocks. That and moving away from "Chimney Imp-itus" design ethos. If a person can build a decent tribal deck out of uncommons, commons, a few rares, and maybe 1-2 mythical rares I'd call that a great adjustment.
I enjoyed the concept of Affinity's cheapness and power, however I despised it's ability to dominate an entire format. There's enough middle ground, if the designers were willing to actually abandon some philosophies such as what's seen with Faeries.
Captain, the problem with what you are describing is it has nothing to do with this specific product. From the Vault was supposed to be designed for the collectors willing to shell out money for a limited edition set of cards that are considered iconic of what is already an iconic staple of the game: the Dragons.
@Apex: You assume far, far too much with SCG that you are giving them highly unfair credit. Ebay sales were all not listed (nor sold) for well under $100 before SCG started raising their prices. Nor does that actually make a difference, as most sellers in the area that I know already had them ready to be listed WELL above $100 before SCG even listed their prices. The stores I know in the area, for instance, were already planning on going to possibly $120 or more when they had heard the supply was cut back so sharply (realize a Premier store getting 1/8 of it's INITIAL order as a VERY large cut in supply, not a small one), and therefor more people are inclined to do the same.
All I'm saying (and something IBA has been pointing out frequently) is that you specifically attacked SCG, and specifically stated it's their fault the market skyrocketed. It would have taken less than a week (and it did, based on store sales as well as Ebay ones) for the market to reach that price on it's own, so your argument in numbers is arbitrary.
C_M, please believe me when I say that the situation can be summed up this way; either the price on FtV will rise to meet demand, or it will be impossible to find. Either way, someone loses. Yeah, it's great when you're the guy that finds a couple Mox at some guy's garage sale going for five dollars a pop, but that's a fortunate anomaly, not where you can reasonably expect the price to be when you really need the card. Price isn't the villain; price is just the market's way of telling you that there's not enough of the product to meet everyone's desire for it. It's the sole factor that makes sure that the card is rationed so that you can get it if you really need it. Both the biggest villain and victim in this is Wizards, which has the opportunity to make more money and satisfy their customers, but apparently don't want to (assuming that this is where the price stays).
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
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