Does that really happen? Seems to me that between the Confidants and the Painters people wouldn't be sideboarding out cheap removal against you. Goblin will take out Weirding, and Shriekmaws will get sided out, but that's it.Originally Posted by Nightmare
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Yeah, it really does. Goyf just ends up getting there, because they don't plan for him. They'll keep a hand full of hate for the combo, and he just plain wins. Tombstalker does too.
Shouldn't we use flash as a start point?
Basically, just convert sadin's build into painter, and shave a few of the numbers accordingly... that shell was pretty hot as far as I could tell.
Last night I went 3-1 into the top 4; beating ITF, Tombstone, and Bwg Deadguy and losing to play mistakes Vs. Ichorid. I then beat Tombstone again in the top 4 to split for first. This makes my third event in a row splitting for first.
BTW I wasn't playing It's the Fear...
- I don't run white.
- I don't run Counterbalance/Top.
- I have 2x more threats etc.
- ...and I don't lose to Extirpate.
P.S. I absolutely hate ITF and think it sucks.
I think an important problem with that is this combo costs 3 times as much to activate. As such you will have to do more "shaving" of the numbers than one might originally think.
Also Tarmogoyf and Thoughtseize weren't legal
This basically looks like an aggressive Counterbalance shell that plays the Painter combo instead of creatures. I've always been curious why that's been perceived as better. It seems to me that if you have the lock going that you have the game effectively won anyways, so whatever you kill them with is mostly irrelevant. Meanwhile, your combo is still vulnerable to removal the same as creatures, but you have Grindstones instead of your own removal or threats. Given that you're still vulnerable to removal, but have a lot of cards that are dead on their own, what makes it better than just having a bunch of guys? People don't play much Wrath anymore, and Deed/EE look pretty awesome against the deck. I dig that boarding in beaters gives you more angles, but it still doesn't seem worth the effort. Is holding control so hard that you need the faster clock? Better vs combo?
(I'm not attacking the deck, I'm just curious)
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Me too, but i like what I am seeing so far since it plays the same cantrip-shell like Threshold, thus it must be very consistent. I'd say even more consistent than Imperial Painter. But Moons may make Imperial Painter better under certain circumstances... Anyway, i like it a lot. I'll try it as soon as I can get my 4th Grindstone from somewhere...
You basically out-control your opponent with Counterbalance-Top and you are also able to assemble either the lock or the combo via Limdul's Vault. In any case you can win within 1-2 turns, even if your opponent has got infinite life or something. Against some decks you can play straight on combo and win quickly.It seems to me that if you have the lock going that you have the game effectively won anyways, so whatever you kill them with is mostly irrelevant. Meanwhile, your combo is still vulnerable to removal the same as creatures, but you have Grindstones instead of your own removal or threats. Given that you're still vulnerable to removal, but have a lot of cards that are dead on their own, what makes it better than just having a bunch of guys?
Well, Pernicious Deed can easily be countered via Counterbalance. The trick is to stack a Trinket Mage on top with Limdul's Vault.People don't play much Wrath anymore, and Deed/EE look pretty awesome against the deck. I dig that boarding in beaters gives you more angles, but it still doesn't seem worth the effort. Is holding control so hard that you need the faster clock? Better vs combo?
(I'm not attacking the deck, I'm just curious)
But I'd say this deck is well structured, it's actually a fixed/compact version of Cephalid Breakfast which has got a solution against removal that can interrupt you: Counterbalance.
The transformational SB also seems to be cool since you can still play the Cephalid Breakfast-mode and simply tutor up every Goyf or Stalker and go beatdown if you have to face Gaea's Blessing.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
The basic question is that, because once the lock is established winning is usually easy, does this have more EV when you don't have the lock as opposed to a man plan, and why?
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
I think I'll start playing this. I've been running Cephalid Breakfast simply as a way to utilize my set of Goyfs in more than just a thresh list (Which I find average to play at best), but it's far from optimal being a hugely GY-Based combo and therefore almost completely unacceptable pre-Shards and absolutely so post-Shards due to other faster combos that use the graveyard present in the meta, and therefore massive amounts of GY hate. This leads to me losing a lot, which sucks.
I traded off Bobs and T-Seizes @ GenCon, so it'll be a bit before I get it assembled, but consider me in.
Ichorid is a driving force in my meta, would you explain to me how to beat a turn-2 goldfish? I see a lot of options, but can you beat it reliably? What's your percentage come to on the matchup in your testing?
Have you thought of Aether Vial? Just curious, I'm sure it's crossed your mind since you run Painters and Bob maindeck, Goyfs in the board...Probably not as useful as other slots already dedicated to other premises.
Plan on seeing me in this thread more and more.
Pce,
--DC
I'm still not convinced that winning with the "Lock" in play is as easy as people make it out to be. In terms of the distinction between the creature win, and the combo win, well, it's much faster to win with the combo. I mean, generally speaking people have worked toward their own win, and have dudes in the way, etc. I've found it much, much simpler to assemble six mana and go "oops I win." In that regard, the soft lock is much more useful as proactive disruption than it is in protecting the combo for an extended period of time, which would be required were I to try and win through the attack step.
This deck is also great for revealing Trinket Mage when you have Counterbalance in play and your opponent Krosan Grips your Grindstone. Then Reveals a Tarmogoyf for Counterbalance the very next turn when your opponent casts a Tarmogoyf. Hardcore Top Decking Deck...
And what exactly was the message behind this?
This deck is not a topdecking-deck since you have a lot of cantrips to optimize your draw and seek for solutions. And as I said before, revealing Trinket Mage for Krosan Grip and Deed is not difficult if you know your opponent play those cards since you can always set it up with Limdul's Vault.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
He's bitter cause I did that to him. I rule at blind Counterbalance reveals.
Very astute of you to recognize the similarities between this deck and our Cephalid List. It was loosely based on that list when we created it. Consider this a more reliable, but slightly more expensive Breakfast.
I feel pretty comfortable with the Ichorid matchup. I've only lost once, maybe twice ever in that matchup with this list. Basically, game one you try to win the die roll, which gives you 9 turn 1 plays that significantly impact the game - 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Force, and Crypt. If you don't have at least one of those three, preferably a combination of two or more, then you mull. You have to stop them from going balls-out broken. That buys you time to tutor up crypt/ruins, or EE, etc, which helps win the yard war. That's game 1 in a nutshell. Games 2 and 3, I bring in Goyf (not Stalker) and the other artifacts from the board. Sometimes they get lucky and have the Needle for Crypt, but that's the game you play. You're usually looking to Vault for your hate, or Trinket Mage it up, and the combination of a combo win with tutorable, recurable hate is enough to pull it out.Ichorid is a driving force in my meta, would you explain to me how to beat a turn-2 goldfish? I see a lot of options, but can you beat it reliably? What's your percentage come to on the matchup in your testing?
You've answered your own question!Have you thought of Aether Vial? Just curious, I'm sure it's crossed your mind since you run Painters and Bob maindeck, Goyfs in the board...Probably not as useful as other slots already dedicated to other premises.
Against, say, Thresh (3 or 4 color builds), postboard (when they're likely to bring in their Krosan Grips), it seems like you really want to be resolving a Counterbalance (if they blast the Counterbalance to not get "locked out", then you can potentially be clear to drop the combo on the board, if they figure you don't have pressure, they do, and will wait to Grip a combo piece, you can use Vault/Top/Ponder/Brainstorm to set up a Trinket on top after you've got the combo in hand and are ready to try and bust it onto the board).
Is there any way to add the 4th Counterbalance?
I absolutely bring in all seven guys against Thresh post-board. They are one of the matchups where you REALLY want the man plan. You simply transform your deck into Black Thresh, and win the mirror.
Right, but wouldn't you still want a 4th Counterbalance against them? Usually whoever counters more spells with Counterbalance is in the position to actually out-man the opponent in the mirror.
EDIT:
How strong have you found the deck to be overall? You seem to have some versatility, so it may not be bad to have extra copies of cards that are maindeck in the board. For instance, perhaps you want to go to 4 main Lim-Duls Vault and 2 main Dark Confidants, and then side the extra 1 or 2 Confidants when you want to be less a combo deck, and more a control deck. Same would go with the 4th Counterbalance perhaps?
LDV and Confidant are not interchangable, because LDV on turn two is a lot less awesome than Confidant on turn two.
Nightmare: When you're using the combo without the lock to back it up, how often does Plow or whatever other removal spell get in the way?
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
I can attest for having playing Imperial Painter for an extended period of time that the EPIC Painter list is quite strong and suits the play-style of a control-combo player quite well. While it isn't as aggressive as I.P., it certainly can be post-board.
One of the strongest aspects I have seen playing against Nightmare with the list is how strong the disrupt package can be. The combo itself is colorless and this build doesn't rely solely on Blast effects for full power with Painter's Servant, but rather a slew of problems such as Counter/Top and Lim Dul's Vault which set yourself up for an almost unstoppable win.
One of the (rare) drawbacks I've noticed, however, is how convoluted the chain of events that precursor to the win can be. What I mean by this, is sometimes all the deck can do is run out of answers until your opponent overwhelms you with brute force or cards like Magus of the Moon (which hoses just about any deck founded upon non-basics). I've seen Nightmare pitch Lim-Dul's Vault more than any other card in the deck to Force of Will - which is a good thing, don't get me wrong - because of how effective one is if you can get it off. And how ironic they both reside from Alliances?
I really enjoyed playing against this particular version of the Painter-Grindstone builds. If you're a control player with a secret passion for combo, then you'll love this. It's more consistent than Imperial Painter, but does lack the punch to go up the first game in a round against similarly strong builds.
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