[Deck] EPIC Painter

[freakish777]

LDV and Confidant are not interchangable, because LDV on turn two is a lot less awesome than Confidant on turn two.

I wasn't suggesting they were.

Observations:
This list seems extremely tight.
Having played against it, it seems to be fairly strong (compared to the rest of the metagame).
Lim-Duls Vault and Dark Confidant are competing strategies (Dark Confidant provides control, LDV provides "beatdown" by allowing you to combo out quickly).

Question:
Against the majority of the metagame, do you think you're the beatdown or the control?

Suggestion:
After answering that question for yourself, shift to 4 maindeck Confidants (if control) or 4 maindeck LDVs (if "beatdown") and 2 of the other card (and board the other 1~2 as both are "good enough" cards in their own right).
Also if you're the control against the bulk of the metagame, you may also want the 4th Counterbalance main, cutting down to 1 LDV in the main (I'll make an assumption that the mana curve in this deck is "correct" and that if at all possible all 2cc cards should be replaced by 2cc cards).

Note: I don't actually subscribe to the Flores belief that "Either 0 or 4 copies is right and nothing in between." I do however find it strange that the deck has the "I want to control the game" package of Counterbalance Top Confidant juxtaposed with the "I want to win when I untap after tutoring" of LDV, when it seems like it should focus on one or the other, and then have the other plan sideboarded. If against the metagame you're the control by far 50% and the beatdown by far 50% (ie, everyone is either playing Belcher or MUC), then it's likely fair to go 100% in the middle and then board appropriately. However if you're pretty sure you're going to be the control deck 70% of time, why not just stuff the LDVs into the board and focus on controlling the game more? Then against the decks where you're the beatdown, you bring in the LDVs (and the man plan? over the confidants and the couple extra copies of the combo).


Summary: I think Confidant + LDV is slightly unfocused (and that may not be a bad thing, depending on the metagame).

[frogboy]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I misread your post.

I'm usually inclined towards versatility, but this is probably one of the circumstances where "it depends on what strategies and tactics you use" is a reasonable argument, and certainly preboarding is valid.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'm going to run 4x Goyf mainboard around here for a while until I can get my other 2x Grindstone at a reasonable price. While I have most legacy staples, Grindstone was never considered useable until just very recently. I don't have them, and didn't grab them when I should have at a reasonable price.

[Nightmare]

I've never been a fan of running a split in cards between the main and board, to be sided to a full set in different matchups (IE, the fourth CB in the board). It's just never seemed like the proper way to utilize the slots in your sideboard to me. It may be good in the Thresh match, but I'm not convinced there's a significant advantage to running four CBs to three. At least, not a large enough advantage to justify cutting other cards from the board.

As for the Bob/Vault split, I could consider going up to 4 Bobs and 2 Vaults, but I wouldn't go the other way. Bob is one of your best cards, and one of only two sources of true card advantage in the deck. I love hitting him on turn 2 - he's probably your best two drop, including CB. He applies pressure to your opponent while enabling your combo by both drawing fire, and giving you access to more cards. Still, four seems like too many to run, and there's few times I really want more than one of him online.

Vault is the same way. It sets the combo up by finding the missing piece, or finds the ETruth or whatever I need at that moment, but it's not amazing all the time, and it rarely resolves. It shines with CB or Bob in play, for sure. I side them out a lot, but that's not really that big a deal in my eyes.

I've played a lot of games with this list - a LOT - and I've never felt like the numbers of either card are off. Of course, I'm also a proponent of versatility over inherent power, so my objectivity may be questionable.

[Rush]

I believe Tezzeret will push this deck into a definite tier position.

[Ch@os]

And why do you think that will happen?

Ive tested the Deck and even my thoughts are that Goyf belongs mainboard 3-4x.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Please don't bring up Tezzeret again. It doesn't, nor will it ever, belong in the discussion of a combo oriented list. There are *MUCH* better, lower costing tutors, and it's other abilities are completely irrelevant.

Goyf, in my opinion, belongs maindeck. The suprise factor isn't enough to make it a viable sideboard card. If nothing else, it draws creature removal like a flame draws moths. It's one less StP to worry about when you drop painter. If it never gets hit, its a win-condition. A double-edged sword shouldn't be confined to the sideboard. Same argument goes for DC, as it's a very powerful card to drop on turn 2, and this list is chuck full of those.

In fact, it could be safe to say that dropping a Grindstone turn one and then a goyf turn two could lead to some pretty confused opponents as to what to do next--find a removal spell or nullify the Grindstone.

Meh.

19
4 Polluted delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island

41
2 Trinket Mage
2 Painter's Servant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstrom
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Grindstone
4 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod's Crypt

Eh? How about something like that? It's not a huge change, but it seems like a reasonable effort. While LDV is a good card, it's been mentioned it's certain dissynergy with DC, and top's capacity to be good with it, I'd say up the count of SDT and maybe a maindecked Needle in place of the LDV. Maybe that slows it down to much, but I like the 4x DC over LDV, and I don't know if LDV is better than Confidant.

Pce,

--DC

[Nightmare]

I don't have any particular issues with the list DC just posted, and sometimes it's pretty much what the deck looks like for me post-board. I suppose to some extent its up to you guys whether you run the Goyfs MD or SB, but personally, I like them better in the board, allowing you a more focused game one vs. decks which won't be adequately prepared to combat the combo. The most common forms of hate (Blessing, Grip, Needle) aren't in too many maindecks these days, and Swords is pretty easy to play around.

[Dark_Cynic87]

While my list works, I'm definitely interested in running 4x/4x of each combo piece. I simply haven't gotten all four of my Grindstones (eh...20 bux a pop, I'm a little strapped atm).

It works, and in some metagames it may be optimal. However, it's not exactly what I'm hoping to run in the end. It will probably be -4 goyf, +2 of each combo piece, at least for a while unless/until it becomes a hassle and I need the creatures.

Pce,

--DC

[Rush]

And what tutor card(s) are you referring to DarkCynic? The point is he finds either piece without having to actually cast the card itself. It's like this, if you cast Vault to find a Painter, you just spent as much mana as if you had simply cast Tezzeret. You also avoid the whole paying life bit. Tezzeret finds Crypt for free. Additionally, you're opponent must deal with the card or you can just keep grabbing pieces until you win. Much like Goyf will draw out removal, Tezzeret would draw out damage, and, in your build and the like, you need to try and hold onto as much life as humanly possible.

[Nightmare]

It's like this, if you cast Vault to find a Painter, you just spent as much mana as if you had simply cast Tezzeret. You also avoid the whole paying life bit.

Tezzeret costs 5 mana. Vault costs 2 mana. It's generally played during your opponent's EOT step. Then, you untap your two mana sources, and use them to play Painter. See, in that regard, its much, much cheaper to play LDV.

[Rush]

Ah, I was not aware it was 3UU. I could have sworn the last time I checked the spoiler said its cost was 2UU. Oh well, in that case, I would not run the card either. Also, it costing 3UU makes me a sad panda now. :(

[Isamaru]

Sorry to go off topic here, but I'd just like to point out that Sadin didn't actually build the Flash deck he played, so we probably don't need to keep typing those 5 letters every time we try to mention the winning GP Flash deck.

Even though Lim-Dul's Vault is great, it's just like Fabricate over Trinket Mage... even though it'd do a better job than Confidant, it doesn't have any immediate effect on the board.

[Dark_Cynic87]

While that's one outlook, and don't get me wrong, bob is a badass, another possible outlook is that LDV is a "win-now" card. LDV into your last piece, tap top, win. That's a more aggressive approach. I understand Bob is great CA and a must-counter and barring that a removal-eater, but he doesn't grab what you need. It's more likely a play-style call. Also a meta-call. I'd much rather play bob in a heavy Eva-Green meta than I would LDV, same with a highly controlling meta, but as for a more well-rounded event/meta, I'd probably go with LDV. LDV, while a one-time effect, has a much more PROFOUND effect. It wins now.

Meta/Play-style call.

I think it's not a pick one scenario, but a player's call.

We pretty much had this debate in FT discussion months ago. I'd like to get through it with this deck so we can look at the more important issues. Keep in mind Bob can be in the board with Goyf as even more of a suprise.

Pce,

--DC

[freakish777]

Sorry to go off topic here, but I'd just like to point out that Sadin didn't actually build the Flash deck he played, so we probably don't need to keep typing those 5 letters every time we try to mention the winning GP Flash deck.

You're correct, Billy Moreno (who has a PT T8 in LA several years ago) did. Why does it matter if Sadin built the deck he won with, or his pro teammate did? It doesn't change the fact that that it was the best deck in the field at the GP, that it won, or any of the card choices (which is more important to us as deckbuilders than who built it, the reason to include a name is to easily find a list by googling "Sadin Flash")...

[Rush]

Nightmare, are you Matt McNally? I simply ask because this is a list from deckcheck.net. On a side note, I've been playing with this deck a good bit, however I'm having trouble against decks that run Stifles. Any ideas? Finally, I've been tempted to try putting the Dreadstill combo in the side, what would you suggest?

[Dark_Cynic87]

Learn to utilize your CounterTop combo efficiently against Stifle. That's your best plan. There's also Forces in here. It shouldn't be that difficult...when you see U open, think it through a bit more.

Pce,

--DC

[Adan]

Nightmare, are you Matt McNally? I simply ask because this is a list from deckcheck.net. On a side note, I've been playing with this deck a good bit, however I'm having trouble against decks that run Stifles. Any ideas? Finally, I've been tempted to try putting the Dreadstill combo in the side, what would you suggest?

Nightmare = Adam Barnello, Matt McNally must be a buddy of Nightmare.

And don't run Dreadnought in the Sb, playing Tarmogoyf and Tombstalkers for the man-plan is way more efficient as it is then not reliant on Stifle.

In the direkt compairison 4 Goyf + 2 Tombstalker are way more efficient then 2 Nought + 4 Stifle. And I doubt that you have more than 6 slots to give away to the man-plan.

[Rush]

EDIT: I've been trying out my theory by running a deck with Naughts and Stifles in the main board. I must say, I like it better than the more suicidal approach of using Confidant. Sure, Confidant is awesome if he stays on the board, but I usually see him being one of the biggest targets for opposing decks. This said, I'm currently only running 5 cards in the slot: 4 Stifle + 1 Naught. Additionally, I'm running 3 Trinket Mage and only 3 Grindstone. I believe I may eventually run a deck with only 2 Grindstone and 2 Naught. Simply put, the idea makes it harder for your opponents to tell exactly what you're going to do.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'm inclined to not run 'Nought. However, I'd like to see your list...