[Deck] Turboland - New thread, greatly improved.

[scrumdogg]

My major concern with Hail Storm is that Goblins has access to Port and Wasteland. They may get hammered once, but how do you get and keep open GG1 consistently when they concentrate on shutting that down? It seems like they would follow the same plan they have for Landstill, drop what threats they can (usually by cheating...) and keep the control player off double W/G until death occurs. In your case they can even swing in when you have GG again...with a selected force, leaving a reserve back for next turn.

[Di]

As stated before, the early games could use improvement. Pre-sideboard, this deck has a hard time against burn or even burn-based aggro. Is Zuran Orb enough post-sideboard?

Burn is a difficult matchup, but I still believe it's easier than Vial Goblins. Pre-board it's tough, but they can run out of gas quickly, and you can counter some stuff and combo out, as they have no disruption to slow ou down. Post-board Zuran Orb is insane, especially with Crucible of Worlds. Orb will almost always give you enough life to find combo pieces and go nuts.

@ Solidarity

We don't have 11 counters anymore, but we still have 8 counter, 3 Blessing, and 2 Stifle post-board. Oh yeah, Troll Ascetic and Mishra's Factory are still clocks. It's literally one of my favorite matchups. I also board in Capsize for the matchup, because the possibility to bounce their lands end of turn really hinders them in going off.

My major concern with Hail Storm is that Goblins has access to Port and Wasteland. They may get hammered once, but how do you get and keep open GG1 consistently when they concentrate on shutting that down? It seems like they would follow the same plan they have for Landstill, drop what threats they can (usually by cheating...) and keep the control player off double W/G until death occurs. In your case they can even swing in when you have GG again...with a selected force, leaving a reserve back for next turn.

We're well aware of this, which is another reason why we added the 3rd Basic Forest into the deck. There isn't a great chance you're going to cast it turn 3, but by turn 4-5 when they have an army, you'll have enough lands in play to evade the mana disruption they put on you. However, we also have Constant Mists as well, so if they try to shut us off of GG, we can still have the option of using Mists.

[The Professional N00b]

About Troll vs. Gigapeade, you're saying that you'd block a Werebear all day? Doesn't Gigapeade take down the Bears? It just seems like taking them down other than keeping them on the table would be better whether or not the Troll is faster, it's the 6/1 body that takes down the Gro creatures, not the 3/2.

[Slay]

While Gigapede can take down a bear, it has to be recurred next turn, where it would get countered and they'd lay down more beats and win. There's also that whole 5cc thing. That means that the bear could get in as many as 2 4/4 hits before you're even able to play a blocker without counterspell mana and in Daze range. If oyu play Gigapede instead of Troll, you'll be forced to counter the creatures, instead of laying down a early blocker and saving your counters for their counters when you combo out.
-Slay

[Di]

About Troll vs. Gigapeade, you're saying that you'd block a Werebear all day? Doesn't Gigapeade take down the Bears? It just seems like taking them down other than keeping them on the table would be better whether or not the Troll is faster, it's the 6/1 body that takes down the Gro creatures, not the 3/2.

You also forget about Factory. That can block too, then come back via Crucible. The fact that you have to waste 5 mana a turn on it is too great of an investment for such a slow creature.

[hacksign]

I am sorry for this one liner but its a question that I want to ask lets say the opponent has enought creatures to stop all yours and dont make them die or lets say they have infinite tokens or can generate them every turn to stop your creatures, how do you win?

[Nightmare]

Simple question, simple answer. You go infinite, Upheaval, and then win. It's extremely difficult for your opponent to win when their whole board is sitting dead in their hand.

[dad]

@Diablo

You seem to have an affinity for decks that I like to play and have some experience with. I like your list except for one thing. In the past, when I played this deck, I found Scroll Rack to almost be essential. It helps in many ways.

Perhaps I missed you mentioning it. Have you tested it? Why was it found insufficient in testing? Theoretical answers don't interest me, results do (this is directed at those that feel compelled to answer on your behalf, but have never played the deck in a tournament). I have played the deck countless times. Does the Legacy meta not support/justify its use (even though it was played so well in the old extended format that is most similar to this one)?

[Di]

Perhaps I missed you mentioning it. Have you tested it? Why was it found insufficient in testing? Theoretical answers don't interest me, results do (this is directed at those that feel compelled to answer on your behalf, but have never played the deck in a tournament). I have played the deck countless times. Does the Legacy meta not support/justify its use (even though it was played so well in the old extended format that is most similar to this one)?

I've tested and liked Scroll Rack, quite a bit if I may add, and it's definately a possibility that I may run it. When I originally tested it, it was in the Impulse slot, and while it was solid, I ended up using Impulse because I like the EoT instant-speed search it has on the early turns, where you either have to tap out early to cast Rack, or hold back on it. Plus, I always enjoyed how Impulse could be shuffled back with Gaea's Blessing(a play I do quite frequently as a matter of fact), not to mention keeping them in the deck keeps a strong blue count to support Force of Will.

I'm going to give Scroll Rack another shot though, because its ability to dig really deep is great, but its another form of card advantage that the opponent will cast Disenchant on, and it doesn't work under a Damping Matrix. Testing will prove if the deep digging gained from it is worth it though.

[juventus]

I'm going to admit that I've never played the deck before, but isn't regrowth good in this deck? It fixes the blessing problem so you don't need to side any in, lets you AK for 4 one more time, and gets back timewarp.

[dad]

I definitely think Scroll Rack belongs. If you want ideas on your current decklist you can PM me and therefore you can decide when to release any 'tech' that you like.

[Di]

I'm going to admit that I've never played the deck before, but isn't regrowth good in this deck? It fixes the blessing problem so you don't need to side any in, lets you AK for 4 one more time, and gets back timewarp.

Blessing problem? Blessing is in the sideboard to fight Solidarity, give you three more solid targets back to fight control, and also fight graveyard hate. I like Regrowth, because the idea of immediate Time Warp and friends sounds sexy, but it isn't going to let you go infinate, so Blessing ends up getting the call.

Most people playing against the deck or looking at the deck don't realize Gaea's Blessing is actually the prime win condition in the deck.

I definitely think Scroll Rack belongs. If you want ideas on your current decklist you can PM me and therefore you can decide when to release any 'tech' that you like.

Why don't you just post tech if you have it. I didn't release anything from July-last week because I wanted to surprise the field for the GPT. People know the deck now, but most likely still won't prepare for it anyway. Plus, I still feel the deck works incredibly in its current state. The only, and I mean only, thing I fear with this deck is a turn 1 Lackey. That's unfortunately a problem that you have to open a Force of Will to deal with(Factory will be dealt with easily), but the deck is adapting to fight Goblins. Otherwise, I don't really see all that much more I can currently find to add.

[Whit3 Ghost]

If your that scared of Lackey, why not run a few Chain of Vapors? You do run Crucible, which can recur any lands that you have to sac. It also pitches to FOW. The only other alternative I can think of would be a White splash for STP or running something like Daze/Force Spike...

[dad]

A long time ago, Chi Kaufman introduced the deck to me. The deck comes from Zvi. After some research and consultation to adapt the deck to Type 1 I was given a decklist. While probably not exact the core of the deck goes like (60 cards):

1 Morphling
1 Weaver
1 Feeder

4 Exploration
4 Horns
4 Oaths
2 Scroll Rack

4 mana drain
4 FoW
4 Gush

1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral
1 Walk

2 Impulse
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Timewarp

4 tropical
4 yav. coast
3 treetops
11 islands
1 conclave

Note this is not what I settled on, but Zvi’s template and suggestions were the best place to start IMO. Your deck, to recap, looks like (note 61 cards):

Turboland 2.0

4 Exploration
3 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Constant Mists
2 Hail Storm
1 Upheaval
2 Time Warp
2 Gaea's Blessing

4 Tropical Island
5 Island
3 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds

Sideboard:
3 Zuran Orb
3 Troll Ascetic
1 Capsize
1 Hail Storm
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Damping Matrix
2 Naturalize
2 Stifle

Lets examine your differences from what is at least close to the standard:

-4 Gush/+4 AK
The Gush had to go because it is illegal. There is no comparable replacement. AK may or may not be the right choice, and certainly worth experimenting. My initial reaction is that it is a good choice, but until I sleeve it up, I will with hold judgment.

-4 Oath/?+3 CoW, +1 Upheaval
Legality is also the issue Oath. There is nothing like it to replace it. This means the deck is now very different, perhaps even fundamentally so. At first glance, CoW seems to belong in the deck, but further scrutiny makes me suspicious. CoW, strangely is the card I am currently most likely to test around (What are your thoughts?). I really like the Upheaval though. Nice touch. The Oath issue is very tricky to address because Oath was not simply a win condition or defensive card, but an excellent combo enabler.

-3 creatures, -1Horn of Greed/ +2 Constant Mists, +2 Hailstorm
Without Oath, the creatures may not be necessary. If creatures are, I am sure it would be a different set (although one Morphling may not be bad). The aggressive nature of the format means you must prepare for it and these choices are some of many possibilities.

-2 Scroll Rack, -1 An. Recall, -1 Lotus/ +2 Land, +3 Brainstorm
I will only say that an active Rack means you always draw what you want in this deck. Plus, with the since printed Fetchlands, the card is much stronger.

The criticism of this archetype usually comes in two ways. First, that deck has never been known to win consistently outside the hands of Zvi. I don’t entirely disagree. More important though is that it was always a somewhat fragile deck. Much like Trix, it would win less on its own, than the lack of preparation and familiarity of the opponents. A good deck that is fun to play, with some disruption it is. Time , testing, and results will tell if the fundamental changes to Turboland are too difficult to overcome. If I were to start changes, it would be with Scroll Rack and CoW (I am not saying an exchange mind you). Also, I found the deck worked better with a Red splash, but that was a different meta and the old Turboland.

Anyway, I have to go, so I may finish later.

[Di]

Legality is also the issue Oath. There is nothing like it to replace it. This means the deck is now very different, perhaps even fundamentally so

This is the greatest case regarding the newer lists of Turboland. We have no Oath. We have no Gush. That alone proves this deck is fundamentaly different. The old list didn't need to run cards like Hail Storm and Constant Mists because they could just drop Oath and oops, look at [insert really good creature here to beat Goblins, like Crater Hellion or something]. We don't have free draw that also has insane synergy with Exploration and Scroll Rack(oooooo Gush+Scroll Rack was hella fun). When you take those out of the deck, the deck needs to be approached in a different manner, which weaves into some of my card choices.

-4 Gush/+4 AK
The Gush had to go because it is illegal. There is no comparable replacement. AK may or may not be the right choice, and certainly worth experimenting. My initial reaction is that it is a good choice, but until I sleeve it up, I will with hold judgment.

As mentioned above, the loss of Gush sucks. It needs a solid replacement, no matter how watered down it is. After reviewing literally all the card draw availible, AK just seemed to fit the best. It was cheap and an instant, and was able to get really retarded after Gaea's Blessing started shuffling them back. I know the first one cast isn't great, but the fact that it's advantage grows enough to out-draw other control decks, it was worth the slot. Words of Wisdom was the 2nd card I debated to use, merely because it draw multiple cards, but then I remembered it was awful. Thirst was also highly in consideration, but it's slow and the artifacts in this deck need to be cast, not discarded.

-4 Oath/?+3 CoW, +1 Upheaval
Legality is also the issue Oath. There is nothing like it to replace it. This means the deck is now very different, perhaps even fundamentally so. At first glance, CoW seems to belong in the deck, but further scrutiny makes me suspicious. CoW, strangely is the card I am currently most likely to test around (What are your thoughts?). I really like the Upheaval though. Nice touch. The Oath issue is very tricky to address because Oath was not simply a win condition or defensive card, but an excellent combo enabler.

Nothing can replace Oath(unless you want to go for some lame Gamekeeper crap), but I believe nothing can replace Crucible of Worlds either. There's a reason I run three of them. It's probably the most important card in this deck, moreso than Horn of Greed and Exploration, and no I'm not kidding. There are so many holes Crucible fixes within the deck that its inclusion is mandatory. Against control matchups, winning the Wasteland war is key. You need to be able to constantly Waste them, or atleast constantly throw basic lands off fetches into play. Combined with Exploration, the control matchup is cake. Crucible also prevents you from missing land drops, a crucial part of the Exploration/Horn combo. In a way, Crucible is more of a replacement for Gush than AK is, because one of Gush's prime functions was to always supply land drops for the deck. Those land drops that you aren't going to miss are mainly from fetchlands, and constant recursion of fetches leads you to draw broken cards. Seriously, it's a good thing when you can drastically manipulate your deck by only playing lands. It's why most control decks play Crucible.

Crucible also makes the aggro matchup a whole lot easier. It allows you to replay Factory every turn to provide a blocker, and more importantly, it makes the busted-as-hell Constant Mists playable. The ability to fog every turn with nearly no loss of tempo is incredible. Plus, the Mistlock wins the game against every single creature-oriented aggro deck in the format(Of course there are ways around it, but you get the point).

Upheaval is an awkward slot. Originally it was one of the cards the deck feared most as a Psychatog was about to hit play afterwards, and now I've utilized it in the same philosophy to work towards our advantage. That advantage is tremendous. Not as stupid as Psychatog, but when the board is reset and you're dropping lands at a ratio of 2-5:1 to the opponent, you don't lose the game.

-3 creatures, -1Horn of Greed/ +2 Constant Mists, +2 Hailstorm
Without Oath, the creatures may not be necessary. If creatures are, I am sure it would be a different set (although one Morphling may not be bad). The aggressive nature of the format means you must prepare for it and these choices are some of many possibilities.

I already explained why I removed the creatures, so read over the beginning post of the thread to catch it. But for those too stupid/lazy, it basically came down to creatures being too slow and useless, so they were obsolete. Plus, the way I designed the deck was an extreme focus on Time Warp/Gaea's Blessing. That combo is the true win condition of the list. Creatures make that win a little bit faster, but when you have infinate turns, a faster kill isn't necessary. Also, creatures don't do shit against Goblins. You play them like turn 4. Oops, you died turn 4. This is why instead of focusing on your creatures, you focus on the opponent's. Keeping the opponent's army in check long enough to combo is important to the deck's gameplan, and Hail Storm and Constant Mists do a damn good job at keeping aggro decks in check.

-2 Scroll Rack, -1 An. Recall, -1 Lotus/ +2 Land, +3 Brainstorm
I will only say that an active Rack means you always draw what you want in this deck. Plus, with the since printed Fetchlands, the card is much stronger.

I've been testing Scroll Rack extensively for the last few days, and its power is quite impressive. However, I still favor Impulse. I'm not going to list the pros and cons between them, because I believe you already understand them, but Scroll Rack has been weaker in quite a few situations, the biggest including:

-Early fodder for Force of Will. The deck has a healthy amount of blue cards, but Time Warp and Upheaval are cards I really dislike pitching, as is AK to a lesser degree.

-Digging turn 2. EoT Impulse on turn 2 can find that 3rd land, Horn, Force of Will, Exploration, Crucible, the list goes on. This increases the speed of the deck in finding its combo pieces and going off.

-Topdeck mode. Scroll Rack is utter crap when you have nothing in hand, where a topdecked Impulse is in most cases really good. It also sucks when you don't have the ability to shuffle crap away from the top of the deck, and you're stuck with shitty draws for the next few turns.

-Not as much of an issue, but it can't be used under Damping Matrix, something that I board in quite frequently, and it is also manipulation that can get hit by Pithing Needle.

Basically, the only time I really favored using it was when I was already comboing, at which point the deck just as easily draws into its win conditions. The fact that it's slower than Impulse, despite being a permanent source, is discouraging as well.

You also must compare the old list you posted to my current list. Scroll Rack was much more efficient in that deck because it didn't run the same type of manipulation that the deck today uses. Without the quick outlets in addition to Impulse of AK and Brainstorm, Scroll Rack did a better job to find cards. But today when you use those quick spells, in addition to fetchlands, drawing into answers is much easier, thus relieving Scroll Rack of any use in the deck. I'm still going to test it more, but the deck's engine has done a great job so far, so I'm skeptical to change it when it's already superior to other control decks' draw engines.

If your that scared of Lackey, why not run a few Chain of Vapors? You do run Crucible, which can recur any lands that you have to sac. It also pitches to FOW. The only other alternative I can think of would be a White splash for STP or running something like Daze/Force Spike...

No need to worry, already found a better answer. It was freaking obvious too.

[Whit3 Ghost]

If your that scared of Lackey, why not run a few Chain of Vapors? You do run Crucible, which can recur any lands that you have to sac. It also pitches to FOW. The only other alternative I can think of would be a White splash for STP or running something like Daze/Force Spike...

No need to worry, already found a better answer. It was freaking obvious too.

Care to enlighten us on your secret tech?

[Slay]

Nimble Mongoose?

On a sidenote, how would Nimble Mongoose be in general for this deck?
-Slay

[Di]

Sideboard Blue Elemental Blast ftw? I think so. Pretty much solves most of the problems the rest of the deck was having trouble with, which include:

-Counter turn 1 Lackey

-Kill turn 1 Lackey

-Counter turn 2 Piledriver on the draw

-Kill Goblin Warchief

-Snuff random Goblins in play

Yeah, not sure why I didn't use it in the first place, but after testing with the card in the board the deck's matchup isn't nearly as intimidating as it was before. Here's the changes I made for the board:

+3 BeB

-1 Gaea's Blessing
-1 Hail Storm
-1 Zuran Orb

Blessing was the last card added to the board, and the matchups I'd bring it in against aren't nearly as problematic as Goblins, so it felt like an obvious choice to remove. Hail Storm was specifically in the board for Goblins, as is BeB, but BeB deals with an opening Lackey. Zuran Orb was another anti-red choice, and the addition of 3 BeB allows you to play less of them. Plus, it was always getting hit by Pithing Needle and shutoff by Damping Matrix.

[gotikiller]

Diablos, Dad, I agree with everything you guys have said. I have played/tested on MWS and as well as built in person both yours, diablos, and dad's seperate lists and played a few games (around 14 cumulative) of which I would say about 9 were vs competitive decks (sometimes it is heard to find a competitive player on mws). The decks I played it against were:

Jacob Orlove Reanimator
Vail Goblins
Super-Gro

(I just included this to show that I am not doing a "grah" and randomly commenting without actually testing/playing/building/goldfishing)

I think overall the deck is built very well. Diablos you deserve major props. But, overall the main thing I noticed with the deck is that it's draw/search was sub-par. Some games would work very well, and in others that component of the turboland list you presented were... a bit lacking. So, I messed around with the list a little bit (mainly little tweaks as I tested) and came up with the following list:

Came up with the following list:
3 Mishra's Factory
5 Island
3 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Hail Storm
4 Exploration
4 Force of Will
2 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Counterspell
2 Constant Mists
1 Upheaval
1 Time Warp
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
3 Regrowth/ 1x Regrowth and 2x Eternal Witness

Sideboard:
1 Constant Mists
2 Gaea's Blessing
3 Troll Ascetic
2 Naturalize
2 Damping Matrix
2 Zuran Orb
3 Blue Elemental Blast

I will walk you through my changes as they occured and my reasoning behind them.

+3 Regrowth/ +1x Regrowth and 2x Eternal Witness
I originally had 1x regrowth and 2x eternal witness, but witness just felt sooooooo bulky to me, so I decided to turn them into 2 more regrowths, I just made this change without testing (the 2x witness --> 2x regrowth) so I am not sure if that choice was correct. What is important about that 1 regrowth is that it allows you to make your win condition into an even smaller package, allowing you to put a maindeck gaea's blessing in the sideboard for the solidarity match. The way the combo works is you play time warp, maybe recur time warp with regrowth, play time warp, use gaea's blessing to put both regrowth and time warp into your library (gaea's blessing says up to 3 cards). With this method, you do combo off a few of your infinite turns, but infinite turns is infinite turns. You always get atleast 1x time warp resolved per turn and every turn or so get 2x time warp/turn. In exchange you get the usage of gifts ungiven which really really helps this deck out.

*Note you can not run 3x eternal witness b/c then you can not go off because witness doesnt go to your graveyard so no recursion.

+2 Gifts Ungiven
This card is hot. Seriously. I usually get a Crucible, a Horn, a Exploration, and a recursion card, if I have none of the cards I need in hand. Also it allows you to (if you run witness) go crucible/horn/witness/regrowth which works even better, but like I mentioned earlier I am nto sure about witness mainly because it feels bulky to me.

+1x Brainstorm, I added a 6th fetch which along with the gifts ungiven/blessing and friends allows enough shuffling for the deck to use brainstorm very effectively.

+1x Hail Storm. I did this because logically:
a. you want to make sure you draw Hail storm early, something that you can not guarantee at all if you are only running2
b. Constant Mists has buyback, meaning one lasts longer, causing a third constant mist to not be a necisitaty
c. 2x just wasnt cutting it

-1x Horn of Greed
Know that your draw/search is better you only need 2 Horns.

-4 AK
The first thing that I changed were the four AKs. I love AK, and have loved it since the days of Trix, but in this deck without an intuition/intuition enabler (sapphire medallion and friends), AK is just not that good. Even if you draw crazy cards through recurring it when you are going off, in my opinion there are better choices that are more efficient and allow you to combo off earlier, causing that point to be moot.

-2 Impulse
I have never liked Impulse, and probably never will. I took it out because it doesnt dig far enough, fast enough, and if you are only going to run 2x impulse it isnt as effective as gifts ungiven especially because we are running regrowth/witness now.

I appologize for finishing my post so soon, but I gtg so I will finish this later. I hope my post has improved the deck even a smigen.

Goti

[Di]

First off, good input. It's nice for more people to actually go out and test the deck and apply some interesting changes to it.

That being said, I did a bit of testing with it. Gifts Ungiven is pretty sick, I've got to admit. However, after running your list after a while, I came across the fact that the deck holds barely any draw. Your list only contains 4 Brainstorm for the early game, then only 2 Horn of Greed to combo and 2 Gifts Ungiven to find pieces. Compare that to 3 Brainstorm, 4 AK, 2 Impulse for early-game search, then 3 Horn to combo off. 4 Brainstorm alone isn't enough to draw into pieces, and that proved to be the case while running your list, as the deck was barely able to assemble combo pieces early to settle themselves in the game. This is a problem because the deck needs to have either an early Crucible or Horn in play to assume control of the game, and your list doesn't grasp that well.