Well diablos I do understand what you are saying, and I have taken it into consideration when I was testing today. I do have to say that I have discovered some cool tech with gifts ungiven. I think I have found the perfect 4 cards to search for:
1x mystical tutor
1x regrowth
1x Horn of Greed
1x CoW
This basically enables you to get your engine into play no matter what, breaking gifts ungiven like std decks break it except without crap like hana kami.
This is my list from this night's testing (I have to go practice for an audition 2morrow. audition > magic, though I wish magic > audition *sigh*). Following is an explanation of why I changed those cards.
3 Mishra's Factory
5 Island
3 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Hail Storm
4 Exploration
4 Force of Will
2 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Counterspell
1 Constant Mists
1 Upheaval
1 Time Warp
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
2 Regrowth
2 Mystical Tutor
// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Constant Mists
SB: 2 Gaea's Blessing
SB: 3 Troll Ascetic
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 2 Stifle
SB: 2 Zuran Orb
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
I experimented with the following things:
cutting lands to 25 By getting rid of 1x Forest
Running 1x mystical tutor w/3x regrowth
Running 2x mystical tutor w/2x regrowth
2 vs 3 gifts ungiven.
cutting lands to 25 By getting rid of 1x Forest: This first experiment I tested over 5 games ( 2 matches ). I did not like that configuration at all. Turboland as its name suggests likes to play lands and thus 26 lands is a must. If you can get an early exploration (turns 1-2) then if you can drop 2 lands per turn you can easily cement an easy victory. It is hard for your opponent to defeat you when you have 8 lands in play vs his 4 allowing you to outmuscle by playing more expensive and more powerful cards.
Running 1x mystical tutor w/3x regrowth: once I discovered the synergy inbetween gifts ungiven/regrowth/horn/cow/mystical tutor I added one mystical tutor to the deck taking out a constant mists using the logic that turning one of my mists into 1GU spell(, etc.) was trumped by the increase in power of the gifts ungiven combo. While I was testing this version I really noticed what you mentioned diablos. I would be doing pretty well, fowed a lackey or the like, countering a few spells, use a hail storm, and then I would be looking for the gifts ungiven I need to tutor up the rest of my components. Basically even though I brainstormed THRICE! and shuffled after playing each brainstorm which maximized the # of cards from my deck that I could see, I STILL did not draw a gifts ungiven. Then my brain started to kick into problem solving mode. When I test I think like this: I am in position x I dont like y about position x, position z on the other side of the wall doesnt have the same problem with y, but I dont know how to get from x to z, so I figure out how to bridge that gap. So as my brain started to whiz through different solutions to this problem, my mind thought about running a 2nd mystical tutor.
Let me run you through the linear progression of my thought.
1.My first thought was no! the card disadvantage gods will look down upon you and punish you with neverending bad judges and the never ending plague of the 0-3.
2. But then I thought, well card disadvantage with the mirage tutors is only significant if 3+ are run. If I only use 1-2 in a game then it shouldnt be that much of a deal.
3. It would solve the problem (finding a gifts ungiven in the mid game to push the game into the end game) that I was having with the deck.
4. It would allow me to "virtually" run 4x hail storm and 3x constant mists.
5. So in conclusion, what I decided was the utility provided by the 2x mystical tutor outweighed the inherent card disadvantage generated through the usage of this card.
I have not had a chance to test the 2 mystical tutor version beyond 1-2 games so I am not sure what I feel about it yet. So just keep that in mind diablos if you decide to test this version of the deck out.
Well I am out, I wrote this in two sessions one before and one after my practice session so I might have some unfinished thoughts. sry if I did
Goti
I played turboland when it was legal and then again in type one. how good is this deck actually and how does it beat the main decks in the format? How contistantly? How do you beat solidarity? Draw a card withthe Blessing on the stack still says that you lose if you have no library? I love what you guys have done with the deck and i just want to know if i am getting the correct percentages in my playtest group?
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Matchups are explained in the original Turboland thread. You can use it for reference.Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Today i took a idea from the decks type one relative and added red to it. Ths allowed me to add recoup to help the Gifts Ungiven and also it allowed me to use barbarian ring as the win condition. It allows basically the same win condition...gain a lot of turns kill with two damage at a time but it allows you to kill little creatures if need be. The factories were great and all but i have been kept away from victory by a meddling mage naming upheval and three troll ascetics.
This is an uncounterable undisruptable win condition.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
There's something I've always wondered. Has Mana Breach been tested in Turboland and is it good? Searching the forum seems to indicate it hasn't been tested, so maybe it slipped under the radar. This is Mana Breach:
Mana Breach
Enchantment
Casting Cost: 2U
Oracle Text: Whenever a player plays a spell, that player returns a land he or she controls to its owner's hand. (The person who played the spell chooses which of their lands is affected.)
I always wanted to base a deck around it ever since it came out, and now there's a deck that it would fit right in: Turboland. It's a very harassing card, slowing the game down immensely for anyone who doesn't control an Exploration. In fact, it's actually quite a formidable hoser against Solidarity, but most decks can't run it, so it isn't used in that capacity. Against control decks, it can stifle the player's attempt to build their mana base as much as they would like. And of course it also lets you bounce your lands, which can be advantageous in Turboland. I really think it's worth playtesting, at least in the sideboard. I don't really have any idea how to play Turboland but I might try it myself.
I was wondering if anyone had previously considered Life from the Loam:
1G
Sorcery
Return up to 3 target land cards from your graveyard to you hand.
Dredge 3
In a deck with as many lands as Turboland, this essentially turns into a 1G 'draw 3 cards' that you get to use every turn. Any more thoughts?
Team Info-Ninjas: Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
My Videos: Chiron Beta Prime, Flickr, Re: Your Brains
@ Gotikiller
I like the work you're using with Gifts Ungiven in the build but further testing keeps pointing me away from it. The builds run less draw and early game setup, and Gifts Ungiven is slowasballs when setting up for the combo while under pressure.
Plus, 25 is the maximum of lands you need to run when playing a handful of quick search in the deck. You suggest 26 merely because the only draw in your deck is Brainstorm. With more draw, you don't need to flood yourself with lands.
@Matchups
Please read the old thread, then apply what I mentioned about the recent additions to their respective matchups. Not rocket surgery folks, seriously.
Red is an appealing choice because of it's great spot removal and incredibly powerful Barbarian Ring, as well as access to Red Elemental Blast. However, that would be at least 3-6 more nonbasics added to the deck, which means a few basics would have to be cut. Turboland's manabase runs enough basics evade Wasteland issues in the early game, and another color threatens that early game stability.Today i took a idea from the decks type one relative and added red to it. Ths allowed me to add recoup to help the Gifts Ungiven and also it allowed me to use barbarian ring as the win condition. It allows basically the same win condition...gain a lot of turns kill with two damage at a time but it allows you to kill little creatures if need be. The factories were great and all but i have been kept away from victory by a meddling mage naming upheval and three troll ascetics.
This is an uncounterable undisruptable win condition.
I haven't tested it, but it seems to be unnecessary. Returning lands is only as good as the number of Explorations in play, plus this deck plays a lot of spells, so the effect it would have on the opponent isn't nearly worth it. Plus, it is useless against Goblins.There's something I've always wondered. Has Mana Breach been tested in Turboland and is it good?
I always wanted to base a deck around it ever since it came out, and now there's a deck that it would fit right in: Turboland. It's a very harassing card, slowing the game down immensely for anyone who doesn't control an Exploration. In fact, it's actually quite a formidable hoser against Solidarity, but most decks can't run it, so it isn't used in that capacity. Against control decks, it can stifle the player's attempt to build their mana base as much as they would like. And of course it also lets you bounce your lands, which can be advantageous in Turboland. I really think it's worth playtesting, at least in the sideboard. I don't really have any idea how to play Turboland but I might try it myself.
What does this card do better than Crucible? Nothing.I was wondering if anyone had previously considered Life from the Loam:
1G
Sorcery
Return up to 3 target land cards from your graveyard to you hand.
Dredge 3
In a deck with as many lands as Turboland, this essentially turns into a 1G 'draw 3 cards' that you get to use every turn. Any more thoughts?
Red is so good in the deck. I added 2 volcanic islands to support the recoupe and the ring. This allowed me to flashback regrowth (i run three) to get any piece back from the yard. The ring allowed me to kill any goblin and ravenous baloth that got in my way before i went infinate (couldnt find the time warp).
Many games started with me going land exploration land. Land land Gifts. Gifts is a house and it is so good.
Yesterday I took my turboland build to a tournament in Gilbert Az. My list was as follows:
Land:
1 Mishras Factory
1 Oboro
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Forest
Draw:
3 Gifts
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
Combo:
2 Gaes Blessing
2 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
1 Time Warp
Other Gifts Targets:
3 Regrowth
1 Recoupe
1 Mystical Tutor
Other:
2 Constant Mists
4 Force of Will
Sideboard:
3 Control Magic
2 Capsize
4 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
2 Zuran Orb
The tournament was not very big but the players were very good and the games were alot of fun.
Game one put me across the table from a Tog deck that ran almost all non-basics. Both games had me Gifts for Wastelands Regrowths Crucibles and Mystical he drew many land but they all fell in despair.
Game two had me against a Green black deck that mainboarded Cranial Extractions. Game one i forced two extractions (stupid witness) and comboed off and game two i beat him to death with his own spirit monger after he cleared the board a couple times.
Game three was agianst a control deck that ran megrim, recoil and celaphid blue land (draw and discard) he also reached into his pocket and pulled out many duals. Both games had me fighting through disenchant after vindicate after counterspell to wasteland him out of the game.
The last game was against th egreen black deck and this one went to three. Game one saw me at the losing end of crainal extraction and then beat down by baloths. Game two had me lay an exploration and six land in three turns and then i started capsizing. I drew nothing but land and a horn and was at twelve land on turn six...so much fun. Game three was the longest game ever. I actually got to combo and he made me do it. He sided out spirit mongers so my control maics read destroy target baloth. I recurred those a few times and kept volraths stronghild off o fthe board. I had to come back from two deeds and two plauge boliers and comboed at one life for the win.
This deck is so much fun to play and next week is a bigger 50+ tournament that i will go to and post hw i do.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I don't think you quite got what I was implying there. LFTL isn't about returning the lands (you have crucible for that), it's about being able to dig through your deck. With a few explorations out, dredging three lands into your graveyard and playing them from the yard with crucible is great.
I'm not saying it should be run instead of crucible, but alongside it. The only downside I can see is if you toss something in the yard that isn't a land....
Team Info-Ninjas: Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
My Videos: Chiron Beta Prime, Flickr, Re: Your Brains
I do not agree with any form of Life from the Loam
The only way to make it a house like in extended is to add the cycling lands and use it as a draw engine.
Turboland has a good enough engine already and the cycling lands would just slow the deck down...no turn one land exploration land exploration land brainstorm when the lands come into play tapped.
If you think a deck needs to draw more than turboland than go play enchantress.
For the moment i am trying to make more or a TurboGifts deck. It plays real nice and has many combo control aspects. It is running Lich-Mirror Universe for the kill. Constant Mists-Glacial Chasm for the aggro matchups and the only problem i have right now is against fast combo. I am running Cranial Extraction but if you have to fire a crainal off through a counter spell or two, within the first couple turns then you are in a little trouble.
Overall it is playing really good and has alot of potential to be a teired deck.
I beleive that the turboland deck with red is a teir two deck and i want to improve on that.
I want a better kill condition because i want the ability to take a million turns but i dont want to only rely on that. Sometimes you just have to win and cant rely on a hoser to save your ass. I love the turboland deck and you guys have done great things with it but i just want ot improve on the already great thing.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
If Anyone read my report, I played Turboland with red at GP: Philly to 5-1-2. Only one win away from making day2, so not too shabby. Here's the list I ran:
Burning Turboland by Di, 5 minutes before GP:Philly begins:
4 Exploration
3 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Constant Mists
3 Pyroclasm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Burning Wish
3 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Intuition
1 Time Warp
2 Gaea's Blessing
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Island
2 Forest
Sideboard:
1 Time Warp
1 Upheaval
1 Recoup
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
2 Damping Matrix
2 Stifle
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Zuran Orb
The deck has improved greatly in consistancy as well as the goblin matchup from the changes. Maindeck Pyroclasms allow me to kill a turn 1 Lackey on the play as well as nuke the entire team easily, and it also nukes creatures that don't attack. Burning Wish allows a lot more consistancy, maximizing useful slots without cluttering the maindeck. Unfortunately I scrapped the board last second and missed some stuff. Also unfortunate that I didn't see a red deck all day, so half of my sideboard was completely useless. I've decided to keep the maindeck the way I ran it, because it worked very, very well, and now have a new proposed sideboard:
1 Time Warp
1 Seeds of Innocence
2 Hull Breach
1 Upheaval/Wildfire
1 Pyroclasm
2 Damping Matrix
2/3 Blue Elemental Blast
2/3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Stifle
I run 2 Hull Breach now so I can side one in and maximize slots to knock stuff with essentially 3 Naturalizes. I mean, I didn't want to run just one Naturalize, so another one to possibly Burning Wish for works. I'm currently testing Wildfire in the Upheaval slot, because I want to be able to destroy lands in the control matchups. This could also become Obliterate, which would be a pretty sick play against control, granted you have another Crucible to play. 5 Blasts depending on the meta, because I believe LoamaTog is ridonkulous and people should be playing the deck. Stifle I kept in because its versatility between aggro, combo, and control matchups really can't be ignored.
I just took Diablo's latest version of the deck (U/G/R version) to our local tourney and got second. With the only loss all day being to a Rock-type deck with heavy discard. I noticed that the deck is very versitile having good match ups versus both aggro and control.
I did notice that almost all of my rounds went to time limit and two rounds I barely won game two in the extra turns. One change that I made to the deck was that I ran one copy of Karvek's Torch in the sideboard. I'm not sure if it is needed but it won me the game in extra turns one time and sped up victory a couple other times. Often I was torching for 10+ damage--17 one time. It seems to me that sometimes relying only on Mishra's Factory isn't enough, sometimes they can't get through. Upheaval is awesome for this, but the Torch just won games (I did have both in the sideboard though).
First, congrats on doing well, and also noticing how strong this deck actually is :)
Funny thing about Kaervek's Torch, it was a card I was seriously considering as a Wish target to hurry games up. At the GP six of my eight rounds went to time, and I was wanting a way to win a bit faster. I'm sure there's a chance it will make its way into the sideboard, but my only issue right now is that I don't want to grow dependant on the Wish board and have too many Wish slots and not enough stuff to board in. This was a problem I had during the GP. I had a lot of Wish targets but not enough cards to board in.
Also note I'm currently debating using Obliterate in the Upheaval slot in the board. Resetting the board is great either way, and I don't lose Exploration with Obliterate. The reason for this is the ability to destroy lands. I noticed land destruction can be very valuable for a deck that can work its way around it, and it would greatly help out control matchups, as well as hinder aggro decks to a degree to put me back in a winning position. I'm still testing, and most likely will stick with Upheaval, but it's worth other people trying to.
Diablo--
I know what you mean about burning wish and not wanting to be reliant on the wish board. As I was playing the deck I kept getting the feeling that I wanted the second Time Warp to be main deck, so that I could wish for upheaval and one of the other sb options. As almost every game I ended up using one wish to get the second time warp.
A funny thing about that was that kid that I played in the finals who was playing the Rock w/added discard watched me torch out my opponent in the previous round. So when we played, he was able to get off one cranial extraction against me: he named burning wish! He ended up beating me but that game stilll could have gone either way. I mentioned to him afterwards that he could have shortened the game by 45 mins had he named Gaea's Blessing.
Anyway, I really like the deck and I think it is powerful. I will test some of the options you mentioned (i.e. obliterate) and try some other things too.
The deck is a lot of fun to play and I want to thank you guys for a great thread. I know that the goblin match is a tough one and the most important to overcome. What about adding quicksand to combat early lackey and everything that comes later? Also what about Divining Top? With all the fetch lands and crucible, you regularly get to look at three fresh cards.
Goblins isn't that bad of a matchup. I played this last night and came in 5th with a 4-1-1 record. I drew for crap in the loss and the draw came from a REALLY unexpected Price of Progress. It holds most things under control really well. With basically 3 main board wrath of god (pyroclasm) for goblins, plus the ability to go fog every turn you have 1G available, goblins really isn't that hard in the early game. I made a couple of style changes from Diablos' list, partially for preference, partially for what I saw was there. I changed 1 Wasteland, 1 Crucible for 2 Pithing Needle. I liked having 2 needles main, but I don't think that the Crucible was the right choice. I didn't have an issue with only 3 wasteland, but I really missed the 3rd Crucible. Any suggestions on what else could be dropped to support this idea? The deck really caught a lot of people off guard, which always provides an advantage.
Whenever I see a kid in a wheelchair it makes me a little sad. Because I always think, "Gee, they could have used those same wheels to make a bike for a regular kid. What a waste."
I took this deck(DI's origional list, see page 1) to a 3d place finish today, at a local tourney. I went 3-0 in the swiss and lost to a goblin sleigh in the first round of the finals. Brief and vague as my reports always are, so if you have any questions, please ask away,
round 1:
Rouge survival sliver
This match ended up going to time, and was the only game I acually comboed off in. I got a mistlock set up early game one (and game 2, which we didn't finish), and simply proceded from there. His acidic sliver took me down rather low game 1, but I controlled his manabase enough that it wasn't much of a threat.
Round 2:
Bad burn.
I lost game one, but managed to pull out a W 2 and 3 due to zuran orb and crucible. No surprises there. *didn't combo off either game
Round 3:
Pox.
Crappy matchup, I lost game one to a sucky draw, and an early duress for crucible (this match revolves around crucible, by the way). Games 2 and 3 I resolved a crucible, and proceded to win from there. The rack sucks big donkey dick. *Didn't combo off either game
Round 4(finals round 1)
Gobbo Sleigh.
Got outraced game one, just too much stuff coming at me and no mistlock to slow it. In come 2 hail storms (I had gone 4 MB mist, 2 SB storm), and some orbs. I get a mistlock set up, and win game 2 (he scoops), zuran orb apperantly bugged him quite a bit. Game 3 I get a mistlock setup, then get fireblasted and lightning bolted for my remaining life. sucky,
Round 5 (finals round 2)
Boros deck wins.
Similar to last matchup, 'cept I won 2-1. Orb and mistlock obviously played a big part.
Thoughts: This deck is terrible for my meta, but I can see how it could excell in some places. I really wanted more MD win conditions other than the combo (meloku?). I know that has already been dismissed, but this is just my 2 cents.
In any case, good work guys,
Cheers!
-Chris
AKA rsaunder
[quote:sig_uid=\"Peter_Rotten\"]WTF? Is Diablo a little light in the loafers? Not that there is anything wrong with that.
[/quote:sig_uid]
Time Warp is by far the most Wished for target, but I dislike drawing them in the early game without being able to cast them. I find it better if I'm able to use that slot for possible flexible utility like Hull Breach or Pyroclasm, but still have another Wish to get Warp anyway. The flexibility Wish has in place of Warp really outweighs just another md Warp.Diablo--
I know what you mean about burning wish and not wanting to be reliant on the wish board. As I was playing the deck I kept getting the feeling that I wanted the second Time Warp to be main deck, so that I could wish for upheaval and one of the other sb options. As almost every game I ended up using one wish to get the second time warp.
If he named Gaea's Blessing, you could just use both Burning Wish to get them back, so either way you were ok :)A funny thing about that was that kid that I played in the finals who was playing the Rock w/added discard watched me torch out my opponent in the previous round. So when we played, he was able to get off one cranial extraction against me: he named burning wish! He ended up beating me but that game stilll could have gone either way. I mentioned to him afterwards that he could have shortened the game by 45 mins had he named Gaea's Blessing.
Quicksand is a pretty good option, and I like it. However, due to the number of colorless-producing sources in the deck already be high, you need to cut Wasteland in order to add it. I don't know if cutting a Wasteland is worth cutting knowing it's role in the deck, but I suppose it may be a metagame call. If there's a great difference in your aggro:control ratio in your metagame, I should be fine to go 3:1 or 2:2 with Wasteland/Quicksand.What about adding quicksand to combat early lackey and everything that comes later? Also what about Divining Top? With all the fetch lands and crucible, you regularly get to look at three fresh cards.
Divining Top has pretty good synergy with the deck overall, but it doesn't draw cards. Drawing cards is what gets the deck really going, and slowing the draw by just putting answers on top isn't as appealing. Technically Scroll Rack is a stronger option as well, but still it's a draw spell that's hit by Pithing Needle.
My best advice isn't to clutter the deck with more nonland slots for win conditions, but go to more manlands. If you really are looking for a faster win condition, splash white and add Nantuko Monastery. That gives for nasty big beats in an uncounterable form.Thoughts: This deck is terrible for my meta, but I can see how it could excell in some places. I really wanted more MD win conditions other than the combo (meloku?). I know that has already been dismissed, but this is just my 2 cents.
Hey Guys, I play the deck too and find that I don't combo often enough, I treid removing the combo cards (warp and blessing main deck) to replace them with living wish. This allow me to run Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm and even Maze in the board against gobos. I usually win using meloku, masticore or even morphling which are in the board. I haven't tried the red version yet but I have a hard time cutting Horn even tough pyroclasm is quite good. Has anyone esle tried the green wish version??
here's my variant for this friday. slight changes from Diablos' Philly build
4 Exploration
3 Horn of Greed
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Constant Mists
3 Pyroclasm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Burning Wish
3 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Intuition
1 Time Warp
2 Gaea's Blessing
2 Pithing Needle
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Island
2 Forest
I haven't figured out the sideboard yet. Probably a wishboard. I know you guys don't like the idea, but pithing needle covers a lot of bad matchups for me in SD when you are smart enough to name the right things.
1 Time Warp
1 Kaervek's Torch
2 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Flashfires
2 Damping Matrix
1 Upheaval (wildfire didn't do jack last time)
2 Red Blast
2 Blue Blast
2 Something Techy based on who shows with what
I'm fine playing what is essentially a wishboard with this deck. I didn't really board anything in when I played this a couple of weeks ago, other than the 2 Damping Matrix, and took 5th. I cut a counterspell and a wasteland from Di's build to try this time. I regretted the Crucible last time, but the missing wasteland was no worry. I don't know what else to cut instead of the counterspell, but I want to get 2 needles main. Any other ideas?
Whenever I see a kid in a wheelchair it makes me a little sad. Because I always think, "Gee, they could have used those same wheels to make a bike for a regular kid. What a waste."
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