We are playing 4 Stifle... why not adding a single (or two) Dreadnought?
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smother (I definately prefer over Snuff Out)
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Pernicious Deed (Over Diabolic Edict... a lot of tribes/affinity depending meta)
What do you think?
I'd Like also to include Hymn to tourach... this card is GREAT but what goes out?
@Johanessen: I don't know what deck that is, but it's definitely not Team America. That deck is not tempo oriented, nor is it aggressive. About your second list, we tested Dreadnought and it's an awful fit for this deck. Eating your stifles is terrible. It's much more important to use them on your opponent. Plus, Smother is worse than Snuff Out because it costs mana. The fact that Snuff Out is free is insane tempo. Your opponent spent two mana on Tarmogoyf, while you spent zero killing it. That means you can use your mana to play your own. That's an excellent switch in board position.
@Sasa Batora: Post board you have Blasts which are pretty astounding against Dragon Stompy. Grips too. But yeah, Dragon Stompy is going to be a very difficult match up.
@the Lion: If you're so pissed that there's no innovation here, go tell Wizards to print more good cards. Because there are certain cards that you have to play in an aggressive strategy (like Tarmogoyf), it automatically finds it's way in to certain decks.
Because cards like Daze and Snuff Out and Force of Will are so good, they automatically fit into decks that balance out aggressiveness with disruptive efforts (that are also blue).
As it turns out, I'm interested in winning tournaments. Generally, that means using the cards available, and using them in the best possible situations. The deck is straightforward about it's approach, so there's nothing super synergistic (like Solidarity/Aluren/It's the Fear). The idea is about executing a game plan efficiently and with devastating power.
I tell you what, if you think there's so little innovation, go start a thread about it in Forum Discussion. Get other people to weigh in with their thoughts. Don't do it here.
@Green One: That deck that you posted wouldn't know what Tempo is if it spit in your face. Trinket Mage is the opposite of tempo. Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top do not generate tempo. Team America is probably the most tempo oriented deck in the format so far.
@Illisius: The idea behind Crypt was that cantrips find it much more effectively. Since there's no Dark Ritual, cantripping into Leyline is less valuable. Using the cantrips to find threats and Crypt means that some of your disruptive efforts can still be successful. Plus, since they don't cast too many spells, you can Force/Daze Needle (sometimes). I'm not saying Ichorid is an amazing match up, but the ability to find Crypts reasonably reliably is amazing.
@Zulander: Threshold isn't terribly proactive. Counterbalance is NEVER removal. That card cannot deal with things that have already resolved. Plus, keeping mana open to use Sensei's Divining Top slows you down. Threshold is more reactive than anything. It generally uses it's counters to keep problematic spells from resolving, not to disrupt you, but to protect it's strategy. It seems like a small difference, but one that changes how games play out in reality.
@Vacrix: Remand would be bad in this deck simply because it doesn't do enough in certain match ups. What you failed to consider is that remanding a one mana creature is actually the worst thing ever. Because they can easily replay it. So then, if you hold it for another creature, you're slowing yourself down. It's awful against aggressive strategies, while only being of mild usefulness against Threshold. Using it to counter your own spells is nifty, but more likely than not, irrelevant. If you were to try to protect a Tarmogoyf in this fashion, you already have four mana. Having four mana against a control deck is generally poor for you. Plus, remand rarely helps against removal because good removal is cheap. Remand is only good if you're going to win in the next turn (or during that turn in the case of Solidarity).
@Eric: You are absolutely right. I will definitely give you a high five the next time I see you. Very well done.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
Congratulations on your finish. This build looks like a beast, interesting how such a simple setup can be so effective. I recently bought a set of Sinkholes, going to have to put this together.
This may seem be stupid.
Did the fact that Ponder is a sorcery ever come up. I feel like an Instant dig card such as Opt might be more effective since you can leave one U open until end of turn bluffing Stifle on more occasions, not quite sure how effective this would be, Opt does lack the library manipulation of Ponder especially with the inclusion of eight fetches.
Ok, onto the decklist:
I once read an article on starcitygames.com about Pithing Needle actually being a tempo card (more than a SB card), because it shuts down fetchlands.
Did you consider it for that purpose?
Interesting you should say that, Jesse Krieger actually had that exact idea as well. The problem is that ponder is just too good at what it does, which is dig for your 2nd land drop/force/daze/snuff out, or finding threats. With so many free spells in the deck it's just fine. Plus, with sinkhole and wasteland, stifle is generally quite relevant well beyond turns 1 and 2.
The beauty of the mana disruption of this deck, and the reason that I am now thinking Dave is probably just right about sinkhole being better than hymn maindeck (we spun in circles about this more than once), is that each piece compliments the other. If your opponent safe cracks fetches for non-basics, they open themselves up to wasteland. If they sit on fetches, they open themselves up to stifle. If they fetch basics to get around wasteland, sinkhole wrecks them by branching off colors. It really is a beautiful thing when the deck is operating the way it was designed to.
EDIT:
Yes, we did, Eva Green style (3 of MD). We tried it over stifle actually, which is pretty much the only place it could go, and the blue count was just too low to reliably have one of the best tempo cards at your disposal online: force of will. Needle is great at shutting off aether vial against goblins, but your goblins matchup is actually surprisingly good. Also, needling fetchlands is not as reliable as having access to stifle. Stifle seemed like a weak spot in the deck for a while but it was pretty awesome at the Source tourney.
Edit again:
@Electrolyze: I knew you'd like this deck . As for adding additional threats, we tried it, but the list is VERY tight. In order to maintain the amount of disruption you need for the deck to operate well, you kinda need to just roll with the 8 creatures. There really aren't any creatures that come close to goyf or stalker anyway for something like this. I actually tried spell snare over sinkhole and was not very impressed with it, but that was at a local tournament, so it wasn't exactly exhaustive testing. Sinkhole is very strong here though. Don't worry about goblins, you are ahead in the matchup. Turn 1 vial is the worst thing you can see from them, but even then you have stifle and huge creatures to race them. Post board blasts help alot.
they haunt minds...
Hey Dan, are you going to write a full tournament report? I've taken a real liking to this deck and would like to see how all your match ups through the day broke down, the only games I saw were the ones against Carl and Rodney.
I'll try to put one together (hopefully soon, so the details won't escape me too badly). These were my matchups:
round 1: landstill (win) - Cody M.
round 2: TES (win) - Forgot...
round 3: ugrw threshold (win) - Forgot...
round 4: goblins (win) - Hunter (top 8 goblins player)
round 5: u/g canadian thresh (win) - White Ghost
round 6: ID with Dreadstill - Ben
round 7: ID with TES - Jimmy P.
top 8: epic painter (win) - Carl
top 4: Ur dreadstill (loss) - Rodney
I totally dropped the ball and threw away the piece of paper I was using to keep track of everything, but I'll try my best to remember what happened.
they haunt minds...
If you remember any names, that would be fantastic.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
Edited for what I remember.
they haunt minds...
I really like this deck, what do you think about to playing hymm to tourach rather than sinkhole ?
I dont have sinkholes and Im thinking about playing this deck in a tourney this wekeend.
This deck looks great like a mix between EVA green and tempo threshold.
Have you thought of smallpox (maybe in the place of sinkhole) ?
It could be worth testing. As I see the deck I think it plays tempo at the beginning of the game ( disrupting opponet) then play your fatty and win if opponent doesn't have time to recover.
Smallpox with eight creatures is awful. Plus, it's symmetrical (and thus, card disadvantage). You have few lands, and fewer creatures.
If you have a creature in play, it's likely a dead draw.
If you draw it later when you need something else to hit them with, it's likely a dead draw.
What the fuck is the deal with Smallpox? The card is fucking terrible. Especially in this deck.
@Kiwi: I like Sinkhole over Hymn. It's a solid addition that makes sure that the early game lasts longer, while supplementing Daze and Wasteland/Stifle. If you wanted to play Hymn, it would have to be in a meta game that was full of Dazes. Even then, I'd prefer Sinkhole.
Having the ability to cut them off from lands regardless of how they approach things (sitting on fetches, getting lands to play spells, or getting basics) means that you have a strong method of keeping them from playing Magic long enough to put them away with a ridiculously good creature.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
I don't get why people have get all shitty about "OMGZ0RZ It's all just good cards put together! It isn't exciting!"
So what? If putting all the good aggro-control and tempo cards in the format together in one deck works ... then why not do it?
Decks don't have to be exciting and new to win. Sometimes it is a good thing, sometimes it clogs up the deck and fucks you.
Men yet not comprehending their stick in the scheme of the prey-on-prey ballet of ending day
My eBay Auctions (art alterations! I FIXED THE LINK) - http://shop.ebay.com/yawg07/m.html
Id also like to point out that I would play this deck over Threshold, which I suppose it is similar to and the reason why people are mad about the lack of "innovation", any day of the week.
Threshold is boring beyond belief Id rather take a cheese grater to my ballsack then play that shit, this looks fun.
I wasn't saying that the deck I posted was a great example of Tempo-deck. In fact, it's not a tempo-deck at all.
It was just an example of how a complete idiot (in this case, me*) can build a good deck putting together the best cards in the format given 15 mins of free time. I'm not saying that this deck is bad, I'm not just calling it "a great innovation". This deck is, obviously, good, and this discussion should probably be closed. We made a point, that's it.
*I'm really a bad player with any Aggro-Control or Control strategy. I just can pilot only Aggro, Combo and Combo-Control decks well.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.DeckOriginally Posted by Tacosnape, TrialByFire, Silverdragon mix
Current Record: 1-83-2
Why aren't additional beats in the board? Maybe 2/3 Sea Drake/Spiritmonger/Serendib Efreet/Werebears?
Also, with only 8 creatures in your deck, would you keep a hand with 2/3 land and no creatures if you had a cantrip? what if you didn't?
For what it's worth, spiritmonger was the 16th card in my sideboard. True story.
Boarding additional threats isn't out of the question, but I'm not really sure where I'd want them. Control? Seems like hymn would be a better option there in the board.
As far as the threat-less hand, if the disruption was good enough, sure, I'd keep it...and did so many a times.
they haunt minds...
I think stifle disserves a tad more discussion here. I love the card to death. It's protection against wasteland, land destruction, and protection against storm combo in one card. It works great in a reactive aggro-control deck like thrash or control like dreadstill.
Sadly though, this is a proactive agro-control deck. I've only played a few games with the deck so far, but it strikes me as much like Eva Green or Deadguy in the way that it likes to frequently tap out in the first or second main phases. Just hypothetically, if you had to replace stifle, what would you replace it with? I desperately want it to be another proactive control card because I just feel as though it goes against the entire strategy of the deck.
Let the flaming begin, but for the record I know stifle is a good card. I just think it might not belong here.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
It's not as if you're gonna run out Tombstalker on turn two.Also, with only 8 creatures in your deck, would you keep a hand with 2/3 land and no creatures if you had a cantrip? what if you didn't?
edit:When did this become so axiomatic?for the record I know stifle is a good card.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
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