Im trying to choose between LED or NON-LED.
The argument must be:
When playing dredge-combo(led or not). U probably will win game 1, are there games where you lose game 1 because you play the slower non-led version? My guess is you don't.
On to game 2.
Making it more consistent must mean game 2 fights vs. gy-hate gets better?
But what against other combodecks. Is the faster LED-version better because you can "combo" off before he does? How is the non-LED version against combo lika ad nauseum?
Originally Posted by mercc
The explosiveness of the LED version is awesome, IMO just makes it a better deck. The non-led version stands up a bit better against hate, just because you have more lands to play your anti-hate and hardcast stuff (play the slow aggro game) and what not, but yeh.
As far as I'm concerned, the explosiveness of LED lists means "I can combo out on turn 1 about 8% of the time". At least, that's what I've seen in testing. Aside from that, neither deck is faster than the other in overall speed, and both use pretty much the same methods past the first turn all-in from LED -> Breakthrough -> DA.
I went to the LEDless deck based on both my absolute hate for a combo deck that's fragile, and for the post-board games. Relying on permanent mana sources and consistently needing 2-3 mana on the table (that's not LED), the deck's anti-hate is so much easier to work with.
I'm still not convinced either lists are better than the other, I just know that the way I play combo, I'd rather go with LEDless just to keep the consistency and control.
Hey guys, i just finishing building may Led-less Ichorid deck and I like how it plays. I was just planning to build it for fun but I was surprised how competitive it turned out to be.
In my experience of playing the deck so far I am having a really hard time playing against certain boros decks. I played against a BDW deck that plays maindeck fanatics and goblin legionnaires. Come the second game, where i got a beating mainly due to the his sideboard that include, from what i remember, tormods crypts, and shattering sprees for my Needles. He even sided in shushers so that his crypts could go through my chalices set on 0. Im not really sure if may be I was just not playing well enough and i was just overwhelmed by the amount of hate or does the deck really have a hard time dealing with multiple types of hate?
Looking for your thoughts on this match-up..
so what happened to ichorid, relic of progenitus ? too much hate ? this deck used to be hot and in the DTB all the time, what went wrong ?
I'm not really sure, but i think the decline of ichorid was due to it having a hard time dealing with multiple hate cards. Like for example, handling a deck with extirpate, jotun grunt, and crypt all at once; or explosives, echoing truth and relic. There are just so many ways to hate out the deck.
Lately, I've been seeing less and less hate in the sb of most decks. Now is maybe a good time to play deck because of this. It can probably top in a number of instances but i doubt it could dominate like it used too.
Last edited by bum_man; 02-28-2009 at 10:31 AM. Reason: Typed I instead of It ^^
my thoughts are that the non led version is more resistant to hate, even multiple forms of it. But the deck is not widely played due to inconsistency. Even playing the non led version requires mulliganing more often than I like to. Alot of decks are even maindecking relic, which makes it tough. I would say the deck can perform well in certain metagames.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
what deck had/has extirpate, grunt and crypt in it ? it seems most people on this site hate extirpate.
what deck had/has explosives, echoing truth and relic in it ? it seems most people on this site hate echoing truth.
I dont see a lot of decks with dedicated ichorid hate. but ichorid didnt have any answers of its own to the hate or couldnt play around it somehow ? sorry, I dont know much about this deck or how it plays.Lately, I've been seeing less and less hate in the sb of most decks. Now is maybe a good time to play deck because of this. It can probably top in a number of instances but i doubt it could dominate like it used too.
its that bad ?
I played against a fish deck with EE, truth and relic in it. Its insane @_@
They're not all necessarily ichorid dedicated hate, all of these are cards that have at least a significant amount of playability against non-ichorid decks like relic for threshold. The non-led version of the deck is more resilient against hate. It is more capable of playing answers and being in control of the combo better makes it easier to play around hate. The problem is having to sideboard in a lot of cards to counter the opponent's sideboard plan hampers the consistency of the deck too much. The deck just gets overwhelmed sometimes. In one of the games I played, ridiculously enough, i found myself on the D and unable to be aggressive because of a number of problem cards.
It's not that bad really. But given the non-led version is not as explosive as the led version, having to mulligan for a fast hand is often needed. Like what Joe C said, ichorid could still perform well but only in certain metagames.
Ichorid is the metagame combo deck. If there's not a lot of dedicated slots to hating it out, it will thrive. But when every single matchup plays 8-12 answers to it in the board (a lot of the time intentionally just for the deck itself), it just becomes too much to pilot.
And with the solid consistency (and harder overall to hate) of recent Ad Nauseam charged storm combo decks, Ichorid is just lurking waiting on certain tournaments to break out in.
Personally, I don't think it will ever hold the DtB status for very long, but it's still that dangerous deck that will come back out of nowhere and sweep something, then go back into hiding again. I'll always have a version of it together for this very reason.
That's my take on it at least.
ages ago and until somewhat recently, I always saw ichorid in the DTB section. I saw the cards to build it for pretty cheap on ebay and considered doing that. however, I thought I would ask around first because the last time I did that, I built a suicide black, which turned out to be made of fail. so Im a little wary of building cheap decks, as they dont always have the answers that $200+ decks have.
I dont have a great meta and Im trying to get some legacy going. there are a few legacy decks around, just not many. so I would have to loan out decks to friends and such, to have enough players for a tournament. I just dont have enough decks to go around. so Im trying to build some more, but Im broke, so it kind of sucks. I want everyone to play against good decks, and not loan out autolose jank shit.
Non-Led Ichorid is relatively cheap while at the same time competitive. This is one of the reasons why I chose to build this deck. If you're planning to build cheap decks that could do well, this deck has to be one of them. Other decks you could consider are merfolk and faeries. They're relatively cheap (except for the set of mutavaults). They are also competitive, just recently a Legacy version of the extended deck Next Level Blue won a legacy tournament here.
I never really thought of this deck as a budget deck but I guess it is. I always just thought of it as a vicious fucking combo deck that can win VIA aggro and is immune to almost any disruption that isn't graveyard based. I am not sure why anyone would think of the deck as inconsistent. Out of the 6 tournaments I have taken it to at my local card shop, each time with fields of 20+ people, it has made top 8 everytime and made it to a top 4 split 5/6 times! Out of all of the tournament games played with this deck I have mulliganed into oblivion twice and I still won one of those games after drawing Tribe to block Goyf and GGT right afterwards!! If you are afraid to mulligan put this deck down immediately and play something else. I rarely ever keep a 7 card hand with Dredge. Naturally assume you are not going to Dredge into what you need and aim to keep hands with: land, discard outlet, dredger. Thats all I aim to keep and I mull until I have something like that!
As far as fighting against hate, this deck laughs at the opponent who has just a Tormod's Crypt in play (unless you mulled to like 4). However, when they have Grunt, Crypt, and Relic in play ...... this is winnable but it is not looking good. Out of all the hate I would prefer to see Grunt the most. Just stop doing stuff till the Grunt dies then start going nuts. Drop Tribe and block till Grunt is gone. You can also cast your stupid creatures like Narcomoeba and attack/block. Hopefully reach 3 mana and throw Stinky into play! But being a combo deck sometimes you can just win before the opponent can do anything! If you are confused about fighting through hate and what to SB read the opening post and if you have further questions post them. BUT read the OP, it has a lot of answers to the questions being asked.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I once won a tournament with this. Totally unprepared meta. However, recently everybody got a hold of tormods and I believe some got relic of progenitus and leylines (mostly tormods, though). What would you advice me for the sb?
needle on tormod or relic is a great SB option.
My SB slots for anti-artifact hate depend on the metagame:
Needle:
Any time I see just Relic, or there's Relic and a combination of Factories, AEther Vials, Crypts, and other activated-only effects
Chalice:
Any time I see mostly Crypt, or storm combo + Crypt + anything else cheap.
Chalice can be set @ 1 a lot of times without hindering the deck as much as people think. Especially if it is discard creature turn 1, Chalice @ 1 turn 2. It's a huge benefit LEDless versions have being able to support 14-15 lands.
Typically, my SB is:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice/Needle
4 Mystical Tutor (sometimes Enlightened if I really need the artifacts over the bounce)
3 Unmask
I try not to do anything fancy with the board. It's there solely for me to answer a specific threat, and the rest of the deck plays through singleton pieces of hate on it's own.
Chain is basically the MVP, going for anything when needed, especially Void effects (Leyline, Planar, and Samurai of the Pale Curtain). Mystical digs for it, without it going to my hand to be discarded (and 4 Street Wraith make for easy and "free" pickings without losing crucial draw spells). Chalice and Needle are there to protect me from random crap, and Unmask is helpful against both combo and dedicated control lists.
Question. I am also a big fan of Chain as a necessity for an ichorid sideboard. Chain for me is good only in getting rid of opposing propaganda effects that stop you from winning now. Wont removal spells like wispmare or firestorm be better options for dealing with hate like leyline or samurai of the pale curtain? The bounce potentially give the deck one more turn but how about cards like samurai, planar void or wheel of sun and moon which only gets recasted the next turn of the opponent? I assume you bounce the opposing hate card on your opponents end turn before going off?
The problem is, if you don't know what kind of hate the opponent is bringing you can always side in Chain of Vapor. It'll only deal with it one time, but you can normally EOT Chain the hate and go off on your turn.
Chain of Vapor also buys time against jank like reanimator, or hell even Dreadnought (rarely, as they just counter everything).
Versatile Weaker Answer >>> Narrow Stronger Answer
Bounce is cast either the turn before or the turn you will go off, all depending on the mana you need to do so. The deck plays like storm combo for games 2 and 3, you sculpt the perfect hand while you assess and play around their hate, and steamroll them when it's taken care of.Question. I am also a big fan of Chain as a necessity for an ichorid sideboard. Chain for me is good only in getting rid of opposing propaganda effects that stop you from winning now. Wont removal spells like wispmare or firestorm be better options for dealing with hate like leyline or samurai of the pale curtain? The bounce potentially give the deck one more turn but how about cards like samurai, planar void or wheel of sun and moon which only gets recasted the next turn of the opponent? I assume you bounce the opposing hate card on your opponents end turn before going off?
There's no need to destroy something when it just needs to be removed from play. The deck is such a wrecking ball that when holding a hand of 7, and 1 or 2 of them are your removal, you are pretty much going to win off those other cards.
I took this to my local tournament last night and went 2-1-2 after 5 rounds:
4x Careful Study
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
3x Tireless Tribe
3x Ichorid
3x Darkblast
3x Breakthrough
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Dread Return
2x Street Wraith
1x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
SB
4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor
Short report on what happened.
Round 1: Mono-black discard:
game 1: I get off to a slow start and lose after he drops turn 3 Ensnaring Bridge with 1 card in hand ......
game 2: SB in CoV and ravage him on turn 3.
game 3: Same as game 2.
Round 2: Zoo
game 1: Kill him on turn 2.
game 2: I dredge like pure shit and lose to Jitte after a mull to 5.
game 3: Kill him on turn 4.
Round 3: U/G/b Survival
game 1: Kill him on turn 7 with shit tons of zombies after a mull to 6 and horrible dredges.
game 2: Here is where my bad luck kicks in and doesn't let go. He gets triple Relic of Progenitus, double Engineered Plague and Deed after I mull to 5. Yep this went bad.
game 3: Not really like a real game, I mull to 5 and keep a no-lander with Street Wraith (the hand was fucking amazing if I hit a land). I don't hit a land until turn 8, which is when I die.
Round 4: U/G/w Thresh
game 1: Bad luck continues to plague me. I keep a 6 card hand and after milling 24 cards from my deck I have a single Ichorid, Bridge, and Cabal Therapy in the yard .... I hate luck.
game 2: I mull to 4 and barely pull it out after a long and hard fought battle. The final play he dropped an EE for 0 and I had 4 zombies in play and a Narcomoeba. I reanimate 2 Ichorids and sac 3 zombies to flashback DReturn on FKZ and swing for lethal, he has to kill the lone zombie token or die, he blows up EE and EOT I get a shit ton of zombies. I win the game at 1 life!
game 3: I hate luck so bad. Again I mull to fucking 4 cards and keep a shitty hand. I was about to lose in turns but we ended up drawing.
Round 5: Mono-U Progenitus Landstill
This is one of my buddies and after talking a little neither of us really want to play. Its a good matchup for me but I am tired, really fucking frustrated, and and I need a cigarette really bad. So we agree to draw. I get my cigarette and hang out and play some type 4 for a little while.
Overall I was just really frustrated. Dredge can really fuck with you after a while. I was dredging like pure shit and I kept a grand total of two 7 card hands the entire night. It was very disappointing. I went to to 5 cards about 4 or 5 times, mulled to 4 twice in the same favorable matchup, and what pisses me off is there was nothing I could do. I also was not feeling the Street Wraiths in the place of Dread Return #3 and Sage #2. I think I will go back to my original list. It was just a bad night, but it is actually incredible to see just how good the deck can be when your luck is that bad! Come to think of it, I played Breakthrough once the entire night and I didn't even dredge off of it, I drew 4 card and discarded 3! This was the worst I have ever seen the deck perform and potentially it could have gone 3-1-1! Then again, I also could have just mulled into nothing again, which is what I had been doing all fucking night.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
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