Comparing the combodecks of Legacy.

[Van Phanel]

Which are the strengths and weaknesses of the different combodecks in Legacy?


This is a question that I have asked myself quite often lately and Anwar's latest Unlocking Legacy article on Starcity reminded me of it. I'd like to start a discussion about this, as the people who know about the decks are most likely to be found here on The Source. Everybody knows that TES is fast and Belcher is bad at winning through disruption, but has anybody ever tried comparing all the different kinds of viable combo in detail? I think not and we should change that.

Unfortunately I haven't played with Ad Nauseam so far, so I can't say much about the combodecks with it. I'll leave that to the people who created/ played those decks.


a) Belcher:

- strengths: extremely fast, puts your opponent on "Force or not?" on the play. Can win through a single counter early in the game (sometimes);

- weaknesses: easily disruptable, not good a rebuilding after a failed combo, can't choose the wincondition it tries to win with, consistency issues


b) TES:

- strengths: faster than most other decks, plays disruption, can choose which engine (ADN, D-Returns, IGG) and which kill (ETW, Tendrils) it goes for.

- weaknesses: not fast enough to regularly win before Counterbalance hits, can sometimes be shut down by a single peace of hate.


c) ANT:

I'll leave this for other people to answer as I haven't ever played this


d) Spring Tide/ Permanent Waves:

See above


e) Solidarity:

strengths: consistency, manabase, plays FoW, can't be stopped by a single peace of hate, plays only instants (Think about it. With other decks you have to choose if you dig for protection or go off now. With Solidarity you wait for your opponent to act. If they kill you try to go off, if not, improve your hand)

weaknesses: slowness (issues with agressive decks), problems at finding High Tide in time, difficult to play (not a weakness per se, but still deserves mentioning)

f) Dredge:

strengths: fast, has a lot of disruption (Therapy, possibly Unmask), can't be hated with the usual combohate, extremly favored in game 1 against most other decks

weaknesses: vulnerable to grave-hate, takes lots of mulligans, creatures that die




I just gave a rough overview of what came to my mind. Feel free to add whatever you think.

[TheLion]

g) Aluren

h) Cephalid Breakfast

i) Full English Breakfast
strengths:
- plays a lot of disruption MD (Stifle, FoW, Daze/Counterspell)
- can play an answer to nearly everything (Survival toolbox)
- can play each role (aggro: Stifle/Nought, control: Survival/Genesis/..., combo: Phage/Shapeshifter)
- can easily recover after the combo failed
- the win (and other shapeshifter tricks) come very unexptected
- the deck is easily adaptable to a metagame and personal preference (toolbox).

weaknesses:
- vulnerable to grave-hate
- vulnerable to creature-hate
- slower than most other combo decks (however it plays more disruption and is more like a combo-control deck).
- the combo plan is dependent on Survival (well, most other combo decks are dependent on a card, too)
- has problems with fast aggro-control decks.
- 3 color mana base.


j) Painter variants

k) Spanish Inquisition

l) Doomsday / Fetchland Tendrils

m) Bomberman / Salvagers Game

strengths: very consistent (I heard)... well, this should do someone else...

n) Iggy Pop (is this TES now?)

Is Enchantress a combo deck, too? At least it goes off in one turn..

[Lejay]

o) Eternal life

Strengths : Redundancy of combo elements, Versatility in game plans (going combo or control or aggro), good amount of unloosable match-ups, clearly not expected in all metagames, fighting well countermagic thanks to vial+ combo lands, ability to stall the ground with 2/3 of the combo, and it destroys solidarity (this one is for Van Phanel ;) ).
Weaknesses : Sensitive to huge amounts of creature removal, sensitive to red moons, the combo does not make you win but rather put the opponent in some of prison configuration so can matter for time or if your opponent have ways to kill you post combo, slower than other combo decks.


For aluren (don't know if it should be named here) and doomsday :

Tarmaluren (no shitty recruiter) :
S : Versatility in game plans (combo, aggro, control), lots of good match-ups, destroys control, lots of good control elements, no one knows how to play properly against, not expected.
W : Sensitive to heavy mana denial or discard without a tarmogoyf, slower than other combo decks (which is logic, it's a control deck).

Doomsday :
S : Consistency, no randomness when using doomsday engine, resistance to permanent hate, engine not expected, heavy disrupt package main deck, can ignore graveyard hate in most cases, solid mana base for UBW version, looks like a countertop aggro-control first game.
W : Goldfishes on turn 3 on average.

[Kuma]

c) ANT (Buw)

Strengths: Fast. Runs 8-9 protection spells maindeck. Abuses the best draw spell printed since Yawgmoth's Bargain. Runs basics and a three color mana base. Flexibility in that Mystical Tutor can find you mana, Ad Nauseum, or protection.

Weaknesses: Sometimes fizzles due to dumb luck. Worse aggro matchup than most other combo. Weak secondary plans -- very reliant on Ad Nauseum. Only has the Tendrils kill.

h) Cephalid Breakfast

Strengths: Can be combo, control, or aggro depending on the situation. Arguably the best protected combo deck (FoW, Counterbalance, Pernicious Deed, sometimes Daze and Thoughtseize). Can win on turn two with FoW backup.

Weaknesses: It's slow for a combo deck, average goldfish is about turn 3.5. Can be attacked through every conceivable form of disruption due to its reliance on the graveyard, creatures, and activated abilities. Fragile four-color mana base.

[Shugyosha]

Belcher: Sometimes you can decide which kill you use, rarely though. But its also a strength that you have two different kills. I often won matches with one kill while my opponent had the hate card for the other kill (Needle, EE, etc.)

TES: I find it very resilient to control decks (without Balance).

ANT: Can kill very quickly but mustn't, looks like Thresh/Fish/Landstill during first turns which may mislead the opponent. Instant speed "kill" (yes AdN is not the kill but your opponent can't do much after a resolved AdN usually). Mystical Tutor can dig for mana, AdN, disruption and occasionally the kill. Has a lot of keepable hands.

AdN sucks after you lost too much life and occassionally you lose because AdN reveals only shit or too much expensive stuff too early.

Solidarity: Quite good matchup against LS and even against Balanced Threshold its winnable (I like Cryptic Command, sir).

I think its a weakness that this deck usually has to play drawspells instead of tutors. Yeah you have Wish and Flash of Insight for flashback but its not like other tutor combo kills. Sometimes you simply fizzle with bad draws.

Dredge: Lots of awful dredges can kill you. I seen it quite often.

[TheRock]

d) Spring Tide (I'll leave Permanent Waves to somebody else)

Strengths: Consistency, plays FoW, can find FoW with ease, an all basic manabase, can be resilient to most hate, can win with very few lands in play, consistently beats aggressive decks

Weaknesses: Loses horribly to other combo decks that don't lose to FoW, can still have problems dealing with control decks that bring considerable hate, doesn't have a really great plan against Counterbalance (yet).

g) Aluren

Strengths: Is a control deck with a combo finish, plays FoW and Cabal Therapy, can completely abandon the combo plan at any time, consistently beats all forms of control

Weaknesses: Can have issues against decks that apply immediate pressure, runs some weak cards that don't drastically help to further the control aspect of the deck

[Fons]

This is a great idea, maybe add averge turn goldfish and cards the decks rely on.

[Zinch]

o) Eternal life

... and it destroys solidarity ...

I've never played this match up (I play solidarity, but noone in my meta plays eternal life), but are you sure that a deck that wins through winning infinite life destroys a deck that wins via decking its opponent?
Maybe there's something I don't see, but intuitively it seems that solidarity has a very easy MU

[Lejay]

and it destroys solidarity (this one is for Van Phanel ;) )

That was mainly to say hello to Van Phanel which I fought with eternal life against his solidarity last round of GP Paris Legacy Side event. I would not have used the term "destroys" otherwise, sounds a little arrogant. Nethertheless every good list of eternal life should run the full set of mages (3 main 1 sideboard). Which leads with the tutors to a number of 11 meddling mages main deck + Teegs + Vials + mother of runes. I think I have met like 15 times solidarity in tournaments, and only lost once to the deck with eternal life.

[GreenOne]

It would be nice to see the first constantly updated.

Doomsday :
S : Consistency, no randomness when using doomsday engine, resistance to permanent hate, engine not expected, heavy disrupt package main deck, can ignore graveyard hate in most cases, solid mana base for UBW version, looks like a countertop aggro-control first game.
W : Goldfishes on turn 3 on average.

Agree on anything, but add:
S: unlike AN decks it does not need more than 2 life to combo out. It can also go infinite.
W: I'll state that a turn 3 goldfish on average is not slow. The bad thing about Doomsday's speed is that it has an almost 0% of turn 1 wins. Better at fightning the standard pieces of hate (Gaddock, Spell snare, etc) but it can randomly suffer other kind of hate (Needle, Predict, Burn spells, BrainFreeze, etc)

[Bahamuth]

Okay, I'm pretty familliar with TES and ANT now, and I can say both decks are very, very strong. Both decks are probably stronger than Solidarity (coming from a Solidarity player). I've been amazed by the strenght of ANT. The deck runs 8 very strong disruption pieces mainboard, and still manages to be fast enough, unlike Doomsday in my opinion.

I don't see why having Tendrils as only kill is a weakness. You'll very rarely be prevented to cast Tendrils.
The deck certainly isn't that reliant on AdN. I use the IGG loop quite a lot too, since it's simply safer. Although the chances of dieing to AdN are really incredibly slim.

I really don't like Belcher. I don't like how it dies to everything. Or how it sometimes has to mulligan into nothing, simply throwing an entire game away.

[Kuma]

I've been amazed by the strenght of ANT. The deck runs 8 very strong disruption pieces mainboard, and still manages to be fast enough, unlike Doomsday in my opinion.

I don't see why having Tendrils as only kill is a weakness. You'll very rarely be prevented to cast Tendrils.

It's not a huge weakness, but it's worth noting. One of Belcher's greatest (read: only) strengths is that it has two separate kills and the hate that stops one often doesn't work against the other.

You can also win with lower storm counts using EtW, which is a plus.

The deck certainly isn't that reliant on AdN. I use the IGG loop quite a lot too, since it's simply safer. Although the chances of dieing to AdN are really incredibly slim.

I don't know what list you're using, but neither of these statements are true. When I was new to ANT, I posted that I won a third of my games without Ad Nauseum. That was based on a small sample size. I only win without Ad Nauseum in about 10% of my victories. Running a second IGG would increase that slightly, but the point is we're very reliant on Ad Nauseum.

The chances of dying to Ad Nauseum are dependent on several things: your life total, the amount of mana you can float before you cast it, and whether or not your hand contains other pieces that you need to win (tutors, mana, etc.). If you go for speed to preserve life total, you often can't float mana or hold on to other pieces. Often, I have to keep going at five life because I haven't flipped the cards I need to win yet. I'd say the odds of dying to Ad Nauseum are around 5-15% depending on your build and how you play it.

I really don't like Belcher. I don't like how it dies to everything. Or how it sometimes has to mulligan into nothing, simply throwing an entire game away.

Were I writing up Belcher, I'd say:

a) Belcher

Strengths: Easy to play, fast, unrelated win conditions.

Weaknesses: Can't rebuild its hands, dies to every form of hate imaginable, very reliant on EtW, can't play through countermagic game one and doesn't improve much games two and three. Takes a huge hit if your opponent knows you're playing it since they can beat you game one by mulling into FoW.

Belcher is a great deck to learn how storm combo works, but I don't see what advantages it has over TES, ANT, and FT.

Yeah, I hate Belcher too.

[Bahamuth]

I'd say I win with IGG about 15-20% of the time. My 'quite a lot' was probably the wrong way to put it. I ment to say that the deck can pretty easily acces IGG if it has to for whatever reason.

I don't know. I can barely remember fizzling with Ad Nauseam in ANT. I must say I haven't tested too much against aggro, so in that matchup, you're probably right.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I never found to many consistency issues with Belcher. But I play Spoils of the Vault in my builds and I have lost VIA mulling into oblivion more than with Spoils. The deck has its strengths in that, you really don't fizzle. You look at your opening 7, and if you can do something you keep, if not, throw it away until you get something that wins. In combo terms Belcher is the "duhh" combo deck since it is easiest to play since it is unreliant on drawing or fetching anything out; its all about the opening hand. But because of this it infinitely dies more to turn 1 Thoughtseize/Duress and if your opponent plays Orim's Chant you are even more greatly affected by that. However, with Spoils you get to choose your win con, and the deck is totally immune to land destruction and graveyard hate.

Most storm combo decks like TES and Doomsday and FT will be hurt if you fuck with their mana base. TES is less affected but a well timed Wasteland can really hurt the deck. Sinkholes combined with hand destruction can greatly hinder either deck though, but thanks to Ad Nauseam you can just win out of nowhere. All are (relatively) immune to graveyard hate but Extirpate can certainy affect the game plan. But Doomsday and FT's abilities to fight through this kind of hate and their ability to consistently win on turns 3-4 is a serious strength as opposed to the more random nature of TES which frequently wins turn 1-3.

High Tide combo decks are totally immune to graveyard hate but Extirpate on High Tide can set things back a LOT. You can still win if you play Cunning Wish (some Spring Tide builds don't) but it is fairly difficult. Sinkholes and Vindicates on their lands have a serious impact on either deck though. Only running 18 lands with 8 fetches can hurt. The manabase is a LOT more vulnerable than that of any other storm combo deck. Hand destruction plays a minor role due to the fact that the deck is all draw spells and can quickly reshape their hand but if 2 High Tides are taken away from Solidarity it is very difficult for them to get going.

Dredge is the easiest deck to hate out and also the hardest. In order to properly kill the deck you need at least 7 cards in the SB/main that have a serious impact and 4 of those have to remove their whole graveyard from the game. This is the hardest deck to describe in Magic since it can worm its way out of any situation with a proper SB but oftentimes dies to the smallest thing like Mogg Fanatic. It is largely immune to typical combo hate like Chant, Runed Halo, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Trinisphere and Sphere effects, and the Cannonist since it doesn't have to cast Dread Return or anything for that matter; all they have to do is draw, dredge, discard, repeat until they kill you with Ichorids and zombies.

Overall I think Dredge is the best "combo" deck since it can go savage fucking aggro and kill you turns 3-5 with insane amounts of zombies and Ichorids while destroying your hand, or it can win VIA Flame Kin Zealot on turns 1-3 with Cabal Therapy and sometimes Unmask backup. It can even win with a Leyline in play by just hardcasting Narcomoebas and Stinkweeds.

The best storm combo deck at the moment I think is emidln's Ad Nauseam/FT hybrid with Doomsday due to its incredible resiliency and alternate win cons. The deck can go super speed into Ad Nauseam (turn 1 kill is not uncommon maybe 15% of the time) or it can reliably set up a turn 2-4 Ad Nauseam kill depending on life or it can win VIA Doomsday if very low on life, or just go old school IGG loop.

[GreenOne]

Dredge is surely difficult to hate with the standard combo hate. Counterbalance doesn't work too, but something that works against aggro works wonders against ichorid. Propaganda, Ghostly prison, Elephant Grass, Moat win games. And cards like Tabernacle @ pendrell vale, Magus of the tabernacle, EE, Mogg Fanatic or any other sac-creature and even Diminishing Returns are impressive cards even if not gamewinners.

I believe Ichorid combo is not the best combo deck in the format right now. It has a great matchup against blue based control, but it's not so great against aggro and quite bad against combo. Both tormod and Leyline comes out on the first turn, giving the Ichorid player no chance to win before hate goes online. Game 2 and 3 are just luck based. Player 1 has to draw his hate, and the ichorid player has to draw his anti-hate.

[georgjorge]

For aluren (don't know if it should be named here) and doomsday :

Tarmaluren (no shitty recruiter) :
S : Versatility in game plans (combo, aggro, control), lots of good match-ups, destroys control, lots of good control elements, no one knows how to play properly against, not expected.
W : Sensitive to heavy mana denial or discard without a tarmogoyf, slower than other combo decks (which is logic, it's a control deck).

What is a Tarmaluren deck ?

[Lejay]

What is a Tarmaluren deck ?

Like an aluren deck, but with tarmogoyfs to kill.

[Pulp_Fiction]

IMOP the versions without Imperial Recruiter are just inferior. You have to dig through your deck with Raven Familiar and Cavern Harpy and even then, most versions don't kill on the turn you combo off you just have infinite life and (using Spike Feeder) all your creatures are 1000000/1000000 except for Goyf who is a 1000000/1000001. When Recruiter hits and Aluren is in play .... you win, on the spot, that turn. The Recruiter versions run Goyf also.

Dredge is truly hard to classify, I hate calling it a combo deck but it kind of is. And you are right, prison effects fuck the deck up good. The deck can win through Tabernacle but it is very hard. Glacial Chasm recursion is an auto-loss though. But in short, game 1, Dredge can't win through prison effects unless the have enough lands to Dread Return a massive GGT and attack. Now, most people who are experienced with the deck are playing Wispmare/Demystify in the SB for the prison effects and Leyline. But certain matchups like Enchantress, are nearly unwinnable. Games 2 (and hopefully not 3 since you won the first) are difficult, and a lot of people who don't properly understand the deck may keep a hand with a turn 1-2 kill hand under the hopes that your opponent won't have the hate and then lose when they don't draw an answer to the hate that your opponent clearly has. The hardest part of Dredge is counter-sideboarding and adapting to the hate. In particular Extirpate, which, if used properly, can really stall the deck, so usually its best to Cabal Therapy on that card/Unmask it. Overall though I think Dredge is the most credible "combo" deck in terms of fighting through hate cards.

[Sek'Kuar]

I like Golden Grahams (Salvager's Game) Not only is the combo strong, But the deck is fun to play. I would consider that a strength. Solidarity's games tend to be draw(lots)/go until you can combo off, same with belcher, ANT, etc. At least this has some interaction to it.

[georgjorge]

Overall though I think Dredge is the most credible "combo" deck in terms of fighting through hate cards.

I strongly disagree. Playing Ichorid game two and three is very frustrating (and I don't think I'm that bad a player), because single cards will kill you. That is, you can beat Crypt/Relic with Needle, and Leyline with bounce, and Prison with Ray of Relevation, but you can usually not do that if your opponent has any additional disruption like Chalice, Blood Moon, Force + Daze, Fanatic etc. And he often has. I've tried different boarding strategies for Ichorid, but the fact remains that you usually can't board more than five or six cards in a combo deck. And you'd often need a hand that includes anti-hate, disruption to force it through, and then of course a dredger, something to discard it to, and a draw spell, and that's pretty hard to get in a deck that already runs 14-16 "dead" cards that clog up your hand.

I love the deck, but I think it has to wait until people stop using so much graveyard hate (which I think they should, since it's often not needed and just included without thinking). Relic makes that not so likely though.