Comparing the combodecks of Legacy.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I don't want to start debating non-LED VS LED Dredge since that goes nowhere fast, however, with the non-LED builds that run 15 lands you have quite a few options against the hate cards. With 4x Careful Study, 4x PImp, and 3x Tireless Tribe it is much easier to bait the Crypt/Relic and the ability to actually cast Stinkweed Imp is relevant. Also, in a tournament setting (I never playtest Dredge since everyone hates playing against the fucking deck) I am 3-0 VS Goblins and 2-0 VS Goyf Sligh. The only reason for this is 3x maindeck Darkblast. Darkblast OWNS the Goblin matchup, buying you enough time to set up an easy kill or a massive GGT/Putrid Imp + lots of zombies (usually not the best plan since they have a shit ton of chump blockers). I do find fighting through the hate easier with 15 lands and mulling into SB card + land is a LOT easier.

[Lejay]

IMOP the versions without Imperial Recruiter are just inferior. You have to dig through your deck with Raven Familiar and Cavern Harpy and even then, most versions don't kill on the turn you combo off you just have infinite life and (using Spike Feeder) all your creatures are 1000000/1000000 except for Goyf who is a 1000000/1000001. When Recruiter hits and Aluren is in play .... you win, on the spot, that turn. The Recruiter versions run Goyf also.

Raven and harpy in hand with aluren in play is almost always GG. You need 4 or 5 life on average to find all combo elements. You can also with mana available decrease the amount of life since playing chain of vapor or intuition will give you the combo. Recruiter finds you the combo with 0 life, but it doesn't dodge creature removal, nor helps you finding aluren or a fourth land. It weakens your manabase also.

What is the problem with winning next turn with 4 force of wills in hand and infinite man o war ? How many times will you combo on fourth or fifth additional turn ? How many times will you loose on wasteland or being unable to find aluren ?
And the spike feeder kill isn't needed anymore. I kill with 4 6/7 tarmogoyfs and a bunch of 2/2s and 2/1s. Essence warden is better than spike feeder both pre combo and with aluren in play.

[GreenOne]

it doesn't dodge creature removal,

Why not? what is the situation you are referring to?

[Lejay]

Why not? what is the situation you are referring to?

After chaining recruiters you have at some point to play man-o'-war on a recruiter. That's where you are vulnerable. I saw recruiter lists running a singleton dream stalker. It doesn't help you since you are still vulnerable to removal on stalker in resp to the harpy. To start dodging removal you have to play at least 2 dream stalker in addition to harpy and man-o'-war. If you start running dream stalkers in a legacy deck with no first turn drop you have to realise that a problem lies somewhere in your deckbuilding. It cannot compare to something like wall of blossoms.

[emidln]

After chaining recruiters you have at some point to play man-o'-war on a recruiter. That's where you are vulnerable. I saw recruiter lists running a singleton dream stalker. It doesn't help you since you are still vulnerable to removal on stalker in resp to the harpy. To start dodging removal you have to play at least 2 dream stalker in addition to harpy and man-o'-war. If you start running dream stalkers in a legacy deck with no first turn drop you have to realise that a problem lies somewhere in your deckbuilding. It cannot compare to something like wall of blossoms.

How exactly is this different from removal on Raven Familiar with Cavern Harpy on the stack?

[diffy]

How exactly is this different from removal on Raven Familiar with Cavern Harpy on the stack?

Play Cavern Harpy first, then respond to its 'comes into play' trigger by playing Raven Familiar (you can do this because Harpy's trigger doesn't target). This way, if your opponent wants to remove either Raven Familiar or Cavern Harpy, you can just return the later to your hand and replay it, making your opponent need a ton of instant speed removal in order to disrupt your combo.

That being said, there are some Imperial Recruiter chains that are somewhat able to get around spot removal too, making the point moot (like Recruiter into Recruiter into Recruiter into Dream Stalker into Dream Stalker and then proceed with the combo, as Lejay pointed out - again, the non targeting trigger being your insurance against removal). Imperial Recruiter does stay garbage though because it and the junk you have to play in order to make it decent are dead when you don't have an Aluren, at least if you're not totally butchering your manabase (which is always a good thing in times of Wasteland+Stifle and Blood Moon decks running rampant). Also, even if you could build a perfect manabase that is able to support Recruiter just fine, the French argue that Recruiter would still be bad without Aluren since he can't fetch Tarmogoyf who definitely is better than Recruiter - generally speaking, Imperial Recruiter makes the deck more of a combo deck and less of an aggro-control-combo pile of "let's play with the gameplan that's best against this particular matchup" which is something the French are not comfortable with. I personally think they're dead right on this issue as Aluren is just way too slow and too easy to disrupt or at least slow down by a lot (think: permission, land destruction, Krosan Grip, Extirpate [after resolving an Intuition] etc.) in order to be a pure combo deck, especially since there are way faster and less easily disruptable pure combo decks out there already.

If you have any questions regarding Legacy Aluren, read this amazing article first - chances are that it covers what you were about to ask just fine: although it's like 2 years old, the content is still extremely valid and the list is better than many of the modern lists floating around. I think Durand mentioned on the French Legacy boards that it'd only take a few changes (like cutting the Spike Feeder for Essence Warden and some Walls [alongside random 1offs like Cavern Harpy] for Tarmogoyfs) to update the list.

Edit: Here's the most up-to-date list I could find.

[georgjorge]

I personally think they're dead right on this issue as Aluren is just way too slow and too easy to disrupt or at least slow down by a lot (think: permission, land destruction, Krosan Grip, Extirpate [after resolving an Intuition] etc.) in order to be a pure combo deck, especially since there are way faster and less easily disruptable pure combo decks out there already.

How is a four-mana two-card combo way too slow and too easy to disrupt ? It's the cheapest non-storm combo I know of (ok, there's Breakfast, but that dies to creature or graveyard removal), and can consistently go off by the third turn. People play Painter with some success, and that's a six-mana two-card combo vulnerable to creature removal (in addition to the permission you mentioned), also with a combo piece that is totally useless on its own. Now colorless mana is easier to get of course, but I still think that Combo Aluren is as least as valid.

An advantage over storm combo would be that it does better against CBalance, Chalice, or Trinisphere, with a diversified mana curve and the ability to fetch Harmonic Sliver with Recruiter once you have Aluren out.