[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

[Leftconsin]

@Ricardo
I'm noticing an omission of mountains to turn Anger on.

Also, one of the lovely things you can do with Messengers and Survival is chain them up with Priests and untap effects. It doesn't take that much to snowball into a hasted Emrakul.

[Aadz0r]

I´ve decided to give a white splash a try. I figured StP is just the removal which elves need and also by splashing white, Mirror Entity can be added to the MB. In my opinion he is a better choice for a lord than Joraga Warcaller, simply because he can dodge cards like firespout on instant speed, and easily get bigger when going for an all out attack, and he can go for infinite mana in combination with Wirewood Symbiote and Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid. In my short period of testing I have found that especially StP is a huge addition to the deck. Mirror Entity is also a great card. The only disadvantage this build gives, is that the Elf count drops even more. Mana screw is also taken care of using Quirion Ranger. my build now looks like this:
Land (17):
3x Forest
3x Taiga
3x Savannah
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
1x Gaea’s Cradle

Elves (23):
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
3x Priest of Titania
3x Quirion Ranger
4x Elvish Archdruid
2x Elvish Champion
2x Imperious Perfect
1x Caller of the Claw

Other Creatures (8)
2x Mirror Entity
2x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Anger
1x Terastodon
1x Progenitus

Instant’s (4):
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery’s (4):
4x Natural Order

Enchantments (4):
4x Survival of the Fittest

Sideboard (15):
4x Krosan Grip
3x Absolute Law
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Magus of the Moon
2x open slot

Odd Card Choices:
Terastodon: This card is a bomb. It has won me the game countless times. It can destroy annoying cards like SotF, or lock pieces like Moat, Humility or Ensnaring Bridge and even land. When your opponent has no creatures and you have anger + mountain, you can even cast him, destroy 3 of your own lands and hit your opponent for 18. Overall, just a great card.

Caller of the Claw: I have been running into a lot of decks packing mass removal. It’s great to have a game 1 answer to this. However this card has also been useless to me quite some times. This slot is still open for discussion if anyone knows a good one-off to add.

Sideboard:
Krosan Grip: vs annoying enchantments and artifacts
Absolute Law: vs Goblins, Zoo, Burn and any other decks packing burn and/or red creatures
Red Elemental Blast: vs any deck with blue
Faerie Macabre: Survival target vs graveyard manipulation
Vexing Shusher: vs any decks packing counterspells
Magus of the Moon: vs any deck using a lot of duals

I would like to use the open slots for cards which would help me against decks which SB Engineered Plague and Perish. It seems to me that these cards could destroy this deck and therefore I need some answers for these decks. I was wondering if Lifeforce would be a good card for this? It can be a game winner against any suicide black archetype…

The deck’s main idea is to be able to win in 3 different ways like all other builds in this thread;)
1: NO into Progenitus or Terastodon and hit for the win.
2: SotF into infinite mana combo or enough CA + hit with large creatures.
3: Go for Aggro Elves with 8 lords and 2 Mirror Entity’s.

I haven’t been testing the 3 color build a lot but I’ll post more as soon as I’ve tested more…

[Koby]

Aadzor: Just a nitpick, but Terastadon cannot destroy Humility. You would need Krosan Grip/Naturalize for that.

Your list looks solid, but I wonder if you might have problems with all those duals against Wasteland. Since you're playing GRW, have you considered Skyshroud Elf to help your fixing? While you still need the Taiga to enable Anger, it seems that filtering for white mana with that elf is useful. At worst, he's a superior Quirion Elf.

@ Mirror Entity - It's good at what it does, but do you really need 2? Can you get away with just 1? Same with regards to Elvish Champion. What does the 2nd Champion provide that the first doesn't? Can this be a 3rd Imperious Perfect instead?

Also, have you considered any cards to help vs Storm combo? I have found that Thorn of Amethyst is very helpful in multiple matchups. The deck is geared towards really utilizing Thorns very well with the abundance of creatures.

[Aadz0r]

Regarding Terastodon vs Humility, didn't know that:p even so, it's a great card.
I have actually tried running only 1 Mirror Entity, but I've found that he always gets discarded, countered or destroyed. Therefore I prefer running 2. Regarding Elvish Champion, same story, only I really don't mind if I get 2 of them, since they still give the +1/+1, and they'll give each other forestwalk.

Skyshroud Elf is a great find. I didn't know the card. I think i'll add 1 mountain instead of a taiga and add two skyshroud elves instead of 1x llanowar elves and 1x quirion ranger. However, I don't really agree it's superior to quirion ranger. Don't forget about the untap ability.

Thorn of amethyst is great. Usually I would add them to the sideboard, but no player in my usual group plays combo. I have never been very good at making a good sideboard, so if anyone has any tips, please be welcome to share your thoughts;)

[lebarion]

@Ricardo: I don't like the inclusion of Mutavaults in Elf Survival. I think that if I wanted to add utility a land, it would be Wasteland. But I believe that by adding utility lands we need to raise our land count, thus lowering our elves count, thus making the tribal synergy weaker.
Elvish Lyrist and Elvish Scrapper are weak, and while I agree that having artifact/enchantment removal maindeck is good, using 4 slots for bad cards is too much. I use 1 Viridian Zealot (more versatile) and 1 Viridian Shaman (card-advantage, reusable with Symbiote), and I'm not sure I wouldn't be better with only one of them.
Sylvan messenger is much better than Harmonize. You can search it with survival and it attacks with trample.
Talara's Battalion does nothing for the tribe, is an awful topdeck, and dies to lightning bolt. I don't like him, I believe he belongs to aggro elves.

@Aadz0r: I like Mirror Entity a lot. I've tested it many times and only dismissed it because I like to have a rock-solid manabase. I think you could probably remove Caller to add a third Wirewood Symbiote, that is very good on its own, as Natural Order -> Progenitus is a good answer to mass removal (just play carefully, keeping alow-cost elf in hand to feed NO).
How you're feeling about the low elf count? Do you find yourself wanting more?
What about Natural Order? I've tested it a lot, and ended up finding that he doesn't helps me that much in my bad matches. For instance, Aggro Loam can wish for Edict or Perish, and Zoo can just attack through Progenitus and burn me to finalize the job. Do you have different experiences?

Thanks!

[Aadz0r]

@lebarion: I believe the white splash is great... It helps nearly every match up except for storm combo. I can see why you would want to have a 'rock-solid' mana base, but i actually think that splashing white does not really give you a fragile mana base. Sure, it is more likely to be mana screwed, but using cards as Quirion Ranger and Skyshroud Elf helps solve this problem... The red mana is used anyhow and therefore is not the issue here.

I will remove Caller of the Claw MB. it has been sitting dead in my hand too many times now... i will indeed likely replace this for a third Wirewood Symbiote, although I am actually thinking about including one Harmonic Sliver to the deck. i know it's not an Elf, but Viridian Shaman is just too limited giving you only removal vs artifact and i believe it is better than Viridian Zealot, since you'll have to sacrifice the Zealot to make it work and the sliver can still form a recurring combo with Mirror Entity and Wirewood Symbiote.

The Elf count hasn't been a problem, since 25 Elves should still be enough, and with Squee, I'll always have something to pitch for SotF. I have found that I can still go the aggro route, so no problem there...

Natural Order -> Progenitus is the one thing I would never remove from this deck... Running 4 is not a problem, since you'll never mind having 2, as the first one will nearly always get countered or discarded... Progenitus wins the game against quite a lot of decks. Against any bant deck, usually as soon as i get Progenitus on the battlefield they scoop. Against mono red Goblins of mono blue Merfolk, a Progenitus will usually win the game and against zoo in theory it should win you the game... Unfortunately I haven't been able to test against zoo often enough:( Also Edict shouldn't really be a problem, because against decks where you know they run the card, you should always make sure you have a small creature next to Progenitus... Perish however is still a big problem. I am still trying to find cards to sideboard against decks which run the card. So far I could only really find Lifeforce and Caller of the Claw. CotC is added to the sideboard, but Lifeforce is in my opinion just not good enough... So, if anyone has a good suggestion I would love to hear it;;

I ran a very small tourney with the list I posted before and went 3-1.

I won 2-0 against Ugwr Countertop
G1: He had the countertop combo but no hand and I topdecked a NO, which was about the only card he wasn't able to counter. After finding Progenitus he scooped...
G2: He went top, I got a Llanowar Elves, T2 he did nothing, I played Archdruid. T3 he got Counterbalance and had one fetchland open. I played NO, he fetched, In responce Pyroblasted his counterbalance. He placed SDT on top of his library, countered the pyroblast, but revealed a Firespout. Again Progenitus hit for the win.

then, 2-0 against a weird discard deck with The Rack:
G1: Turn 3 Progenitus hit for the win...
G2: He had an Ensnaring Bridge, but I had 2 NO. First one got Terastodon hitting his bridge and one of my lands, then I NO the token into Progenitus and he couldn't draw another Bridge and scooped...

Third match I lost 0-2 against Eva Green.
G1: had to mull to 5 and after a while I had forestwalk with a couple of elves out. He had a Tombstalker and on my turn I could hit him to one, when I was at 4. I had haste so I could win be drawing any card except for a land, and drew a Forest:(
G2: I knew he had a couple of Perishes and Engineered Plague SB... I got a couple of lords out while he had an engineered plague. However, he discarded all my krosan grips and hit my lords with snuff outs while I kept drawing Llanowar Elves...

Last Match I won 2-0 against UGb Landstill.
G1: Mirror Entity won me the game when I had a few 8/8 llanowar Elves who hit him.
G2: Infinite combo with Mirror Entity, Wirewood Symbiote and a Priest and two attacking creatures when he could block only one won the game.

[Aadz0r]

Btw, what do you think about adding one Dryad Arbor? It's fetchable as a target for NO and whenever you draw him, he can be used as a blocker or food for SotF...

[Koby]

And it also gets affected by summoning sickness. It's also not an Elf. I would only consider it if you're playing with 4 Natural Order.

[dsg123456789]

I have been running an elf survival list for the past month or so and getting decent results at my local 8 man weekly event, which is a predictable meta of a good zoo deck, a TES deck, a bg gamekeeper deck, and a handful of black decks and then random stuff (mono green berserk stompy, ur scepter control, etc). I've been doing well, losing only to ant and zoo, and doing 50/50at that. Here's my list:

//lands
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
2 taiga
3 Savannah
4 forest

//mana dorks
4 llanowar elves
4 fyndhorn elves
4 priest of Titania
2 quirion ranger

//beats
4 elvish champion
4 imperious perfect
4 wren's run vanquisher
2 mirror entity

//Engine
4 sylvan messenger
4 survival of the fittest

//utility
1 wood elves
3 wirewood symbiote
1 anger
1 squee
1 gaddock teeg

//sideboard
4 krosan grip
4 silence
3 absolute law
4 misc.

I really like having the infinite combo, as all of the combo pieces are very useful on their own, and I feel like the white splash also really improves the combo matchup with silences. Also, 4 maindeck wrens run vanquishers is really good against zoo.

[(nameless one)]

ruckus, when you used to run the glimpse combo in junction to being survival, what where your best, bad and worst matchups?

thanks.

[Aadz0r]

@dsg123456789: Looks like a pretty solid Survival list... But isn't 4x Elvish Champion a little much? Especially when playing SotF. Isn't Elvish Archdruid a better card to include since he accelerates your early game? Also, isn't Orim's Chant better than Silence?

[(nameless one)]

@dsg123456789: Looks like a pretty solid Survival list... But isn't 4x Elvish Champion a little much? Especially when playing SotF. Isn't Elvish Archdruid a better card to include since he accelerates your early game? Also, isn't Orim's Chant better than Silence?

I agree with Archdruid vs Champion. One Champion should be enough as you only need it to forestwalk when you need to.

Yes, Chant is better than Silence but you also have to factor the $18 difference between those cards. Maybe its just a budget option? After all, its only sideboard and theyre probably will do the same thing on the matchup you bring it against.

[Justin]

I still don't understand why people run Wren's Run Vanquisher. It does not fit with the theme of the deck. Survivial elves relies on mana acceleration, card draw/advanatage, and bombs/fatties. Vanquisher doesn't give you any of that. Sure, it trades with goyf, but so what? This deck wants to win fast and isn't concerned about goyf in combat. I would recommend more Quirion Ranger, Fauna Shaman, or lords. Vanquisher is so sub-optimal for this deck.

[lebarion]

I still don't understand why people run Wren's Run Vanquisher. It does not fit with the theme of the deck. Survivial elves relies on mana acceleration, card draw/advanatage, and bombs/fatties. Vanquisher doesn't give you any of that. Sure, it trades with goyf, but so what? This deck wants to win fast and isn't concerned about goyf in combat. I would recommend more Quirion Ranger, Fauna Shaman, or lords. Vanquisher is so sub-optimal for this deck.

I've been running 2 Vanquishers that I'm probably going to replace by Fauna Shamans, but Vanquishers are important from time to time.
I usually want to drop mana elves for the first 2 or 3 turns, and I'm usually "at full speed" turn 4. The problem is that untill then, I don't want to block with my elves, so Nacatl, Silvergill Adept, and other early beaters are putting me closer to the red zone. Vanquisher sometimes is able to keep your life total reasonably high untill you get at full speed.

That said, IF I wanted to run 4 "deathtouchers" , I'd probably exchange one Vanquisher for a Thornweald Archer

[Justin]

I've been running 2 Vanquishers that I'm probably going to replace by Fauna Shamans, but Vanquishers are important from time to time.
I usually want to drop mana elves for the first 2 or 3 turns, and I'm usually "at full speed" turn 4. The problem is that untill then, I don't want to block with my elves, so Nacatl, Silvegill Adept, and other early beaters are putting me closer to the red zone. Vanquisher sometimes is able to keep your life total reasonably high untill you get at full speed.

That said, IF I wanted to run 4 "deathtouchers" , I'd probably exchange one Vanquisher for a Thornweald Archer

Again, the problem with running deathtouchers is that they don't fit with the plan of the deck. You want to ramp up and win with powerful spells. This deck isn't too concerned with taking early damage. You just want your mana elves to stick on the board long enough to cast big spells and help you win the game. By playing spells that do not help you do that, you are hurting the consistency of your deck. Also, the deck already has lots of good two drops (Priest, Survival, Shaman). You can also find youself casting multiple one-drops on turn two. Also, if you are able to stick a turn one mana elf, you will be casting a three drop on turn two. I don't think these deathtouchers are necessary to fill out the curve on this deck. Your plan should be to ramp up quickly and have a huge turn on turn 3 or 4 to put you into a position to get your opponent to lethal. Running deathtouchers only slows you down.

[Koby]

ruckus, when you used to run the glimpse combo in junction to being survival, what where your best, bad and worst matchups?

thanks.

To be honest, I still run Glimpse combo. I'm heavily looking at non combo options but can't commit to just Survival as an engine. My bad matchups with both decks are:

Good matchups:
Decks without disruption (Affinity, Lands, etc)

Bad/Even matchups:
Zoo (burn heavy)
Deedstill
Combo - its a race to who goes off first. Thorns help if you actually draw them.
Burn

Worst matchups:
CB/Top with either E. Tutor or Firespout
Aggro Loam (DD, Firespout, Seismic Assault, Chalice of the Void, Perish, E.Plague - ouch!)

Decks with tons of removal and/or a faster clock are tough matchups.

Currently I'm going to test out Eldrazi Monument to side-step all the removal. It's also a win-con and a flying lord. It might be worth playing even if it's untutorable just because of how crucial is it against mass sweepers.

[dsg123456789]

I think that the wrens run vanquishers can be credited with my improved combo and zoo matchups. Being able to trade or block profitably with zoo is really powerful. Similarly, having a blocker bigger than many goblins or other tribes slows them mown as well. Most importantly is the speed of the vanquisher's clock: he stresses combo and helps you seal the game faster.

Silence over chant is a budget decision, since i only bring them in vs. Storm.

I agree that 4 champions is suboptimal, but I'm not sure that a 3 mana creature is the beat replacement. In my meta, many players attack my manacritters and lands, and sometimes they can stall me on two mana. I was thinking of a split of 1 champion, 1-2 archdruid, and 1-2 other would be good.

The important thing to consider with all the non-combo oriented pieces of the deck is that you need them to work when you don't untap with survival, since you should win every game that you do.

[lebarion]

I believe Wren's Run Vanquisher in dsg1to9's build plays a role similar to Swords to Plowshares in Aadz0r's build. Note I'm not saying they have *equal* roles or power level, I see both have their advantages and drawbacks (i.e Vanquisher is an Elf, can attack, Plowshares is SO better removal). Although I'm not using neither right now, I see both as valid options.

@dsg: As far as I remember, the only good elves with CMC2 are Priest of Titania, Wren's Run Vanquisher and Fauna Shaman. I see why you want to have cheaper elves, but I think Elvish Archdruid is too important and I wouldn't use less than 3 unless I'm playing Glimpse combo.
I think 1 Elvish Champion may be enough as he's probably the weaker lord (except against counterbalance, where Joraga Warcaller is worse), even though I have use 4 in my list for a long time.

@rukcus: I think Eldrazi Monument is a very interesting option against (mass) removal. Please let me know your opinion about it after testing.

I have a probably big (near 80 people) tournament next week and I'm going to play this deck, so expect a report. Hope my Fauna Shamans are delivered in time :).

[Aadz0r]

@lebarion, are you still using the same list as you posted last page? My personal experience with Fauna Shaman is not so good. I've tested her in many builds but I never really needed her. However, if your experience with her is different I would like to hear it...

I have come to the conclusion that even though I said that my list was doing great, it wasn't consistent enough... I've made some changes and am now playing with just a couple more elves. I'm still running both SotF and NO though... I've also added 1x Gaddock Teeg and 1x Ethersworn Canonist to the sideboard. I'm probably going to the Pro Tour Amsterdam legacy side event on saturday, and i'm planning on playing the following list:

Land(17)
5x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
2x Taiga
2x Savannah

Creatures(31)
2x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
2x Quirion Ranger
2x Wirewood Symbiote
3x Priest of Titania
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Wood Elves
1x Joraga Warcaller
1x Imperious Perfect
4x Elvish Archdruid
2x Elvish Champion
2x Mirror Entity
2x Sylvan Messenger
1x Anger
1x Terastodon
1x Progenitus

Other Spells(12)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Natural Order

Sideboard(15)
3x Krosan Grip
3x Absolute Law
3x Pyroblast
2x Orim's Chant
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist

i know I have a lot of sideboard cards vs combo, but it is probably my toughest match-ups. Also don't have a lot of SB cards vs mass removal but the trick there is to just play around it. I do have Absolute Law vs Firespout and Gaddock Teeg vs cards like WOG or Damnation. Eldrazi Monument however does not really seem like a great card vs mass removal. Most decks packing mass removal also pack cards like destroy target permanent which could easily get rid of the artifact. If any of you has any more suggestions i would love to hear it prior to the tourney...

If anyone has any suggestions I would love to hear them before the tourney...

[dsg123456789]

I just came in first at my weekly 8 man. I really found the wren's run vanquishers to be critical against decks that were otherwise quite tough, specifically against UBR burning wish/ad nauseum/IGG storm deck with main deck chants and against BG Goyf sinkhole wasteland thoughtsieze deck with main deck deeds and sideboard perish. Against both of them an early vanquisher put a clock on them for a tiny mana investment, which allowed me to work on establishing silence and teeg against storm and helped me fit through the mana denial of the BG deck. I frequently pitch vanquishers to survival because usually some other creature is better if you can combo, but if for whatever reason you're disrupted, vanquishers allow you to deal with opposing goyfs and also are a fantastic clock and beater.