I think the innovations that could be made involve the use of cantrips and cyclers: streetwraith and cards like aphotic and/or crimson wisps (which is now out of color, unfortunately). Giving a MoE or Enforcer fear or haste (and drawing a card) changes the clock substantially.
I don't think anyone actually plays Affinity in legacy enough against quality enough opponents to do the testing needed to see what numbers of what are appropriate (if any). I thought about trying that (and writing up the experience) next time I see my brother, but he just shipped off for officer candidate school so it'll be a while.
I wouldn't say threats: you'd reduce the land count and maybe workers and frogmites. The fact that you'd be playing with 56 cards (after streetwraith) and would see more of your deck (with cantrips) would up your "bomb" density (as wisps can be blown on ornithopters or enemy creatures if necessary if you don't have a relevant play with them). The only real drawback -- once you find the optimum tuning -- is that you'd make the deck more succeptible to chalice/counterbalance.
It's not really my idea alone (well, aphotic wisps are, afaik), as some ext players have tried reducing the deck size with wraith/chromatic sphere/chromatic star/mishra's bauble so only bombs are left (although those would combo more nicely with Disciple, I think that's too mana intensive -- without sculpter anyway -- and the baubles are just too slow).
Very nice primer. I like how detailed and in depth it is. The reasoning behind the whole Ravager and Master of Etherium is so detailed and clear.
Having played this quite a few times, I disagree - this is not favorable.
Spell Snare is a pain, and if they manage to counter your Master, you're in pretty bad shape. Fire/Ice is also nasty, taking out Disciple and Worker simultaneously or tapping a Plated guy for instance. Daze is also surprisingly good, since Affinity wants to tap out in the early turns to be most effective, and Daze punishes that. Waiting to play aroud Daze or other tricks is in the Thresh players best interest, since you give them time to sculpt their hand.
Versions maindecking Trygon Predator are even harder. Post-board, Trygon/Grudge/Explosives/Grip come in, while our sideboard options are limited.
Never had problems beating Threshold with affinity myself (played it since the beginning ) .
I do have a lot of trouble with decks running Perniscious Deed or Engineered Explosives like The Rock, ITF, and Terrageddon (which is pretty popular in the Dutch and Belgian metagame) since deed is like a 1-sided obliterate against us . So game 1 against ITF I hardly call it favorable , needle on deed buy's us time, but EE isn't that much better for us, and resolving 1 needle's isn't really realistic...
Why no Goblin Welder? Only argument I could see is that it doesn't fit the aggressive theme enough, but it does so many things in return. Looking at the list I could see him replacing Disciple of the Vault with ease. That said, I have never played Affinity so I might be totally off here.
Because I understand the principles of this game and can therefore make suggestions without having tested them. I never claimed Welder is a must in this deck but it was merely a suggestion.
I made the suggestion of Welder based on my T1 experience where Welder is insane in Workshop Aggro. It serves to recur dead or countered beaters exchanging them with Moxen (and in this case artifact lands/Ornitopters). It also messes with the combat step as you can put the dmg on the stack and then switches your guys. I assumed Welder might serve a similar role in this deck. Basically it should add some resillience to the deck and provide for a better lategame, I mean Disciple looks like garbage in the lategame. I am aware that Welder neuters Colossus and opposing Workshop decks in Vintage and that it doesn't do this in Legacy, so Welder could very well be garbage.
I hope I have now given a more solid explanation for you as I assumed most Sourcers could figure this out by themselfs.
......... are you serious?Welder is a combo card.
@ Mantis
You have a good question about Welder.Why no Goblin Welder? Only argument I could see is that it doesn't fit the aggressive theme enough, but it does so many things in return. Looking at the list I could see him replacing Disciple of the Vault with ease. That said, I have never played Affinity so I might be totally off here.
You might think that given all the Legacy decks, Affinity would be the most likely to make use of the card because Affinity doesn't require Welder in order to be truly functional (which is Welder's largest problem in Legacy deckbuilding), meaning the removal faced by Welder wouldn't be as devastating to the deck itself.
Goblin Welder is definitely a great card, but it doesn't replace anything effectively in Affinity.
Welder would add resilience, but not enough. His main problems:Basically it should add some resillience to the deck and provide for a better lategame
- He is in the wrong color (and he isn't powerful enough to cause us to switch)
- He doesn't affect the board immediately because of summoning sickness.
- You must have something worthwhile in the graveyard to begin with.
- He doesn't have large enough targets to make him powerful enough outside the context of combat tricks and dodging removal. He needs more raw power to work with (like Vintage Workshop decks).
Welder is too conditional and slow. His real impact comes too late in the game for a true aggro deck.
Disciple is one of the best late game cards in Affinity. I hope I made this clear in the primer.I mean Disciple looks like garbage in the lategame.
As for Welder vs. Disciple:
Disciple has immediate effect and punishes removal directly. He is a bluffable card, and he owns board sweeping (which is one of Affinity's largest problems). He wins on the stack, and his Synergy with Ravager is powerful. The fact he deals "lifeloss" instead of normal combat damage does come up often enough.
Disciple is both defensively and offensively a stronger card for the deck. Disciple helps us not to lose and gives us free tempo by forcing control players to play differently, and he also combos with ravager for auto-wins. Disciple is proactive disruption that has impact at the appropriate stage in the game for an aggro deck, while Welder is both reactive and offers resilience at too late a stage of the game, often only working when you are unlikely to come back and win anyways.
peace,
4eak
@4eak, wow a civil response. I didn't think that was possible in this thread. Your response sounds completely logical and I have to agree with you.
Okay, I meant in a war of attrition where both players are in topdeck mode Disciple looks like garbage. I'm not sure how often that comes up though. Should have made that more clear.
Hey don't sweat it, the best way to learn how a deck works is to play it so sleeve it up and find out.
Also if welder does prove to be better by your testing, be sure to give us feedback.
P.s.: sorry if what I said sounded offending, I really had no intention of doing such.
why no etherium sculptor?
Seems good to me, can quicken our race very soon..
I play affinity with ancient tomb 4x, no enforcer or frogmite, 2 jitte and 1 o-naginata (trample = win) and I found it very good!
Can you please make a comment about him? I think he deserves some testing :)
Also: never tried trinket mage? Any result?
Thanks.
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
The cards I've found myself wondering about are:
Jeweled Amulet & Paradise Mantle - Basically these are both potential alternatives to Springleaf Drum with different properties.
Transmute Artifact - This is clearly a weak card b/c the deck doesn't currently run any bombs, but the potential synergy with Affinity cards is obvious as it can turn into Tinker jr.
@ Rinello
Sculptor was covered in the primer. Go read it.why no etherium sculptor? ... Can you please make a comment about him?
Also covered in the primer.Also: never tried trinket mage? Any result?
@ rufus
They are weaker cards which are completely outclassed by Drum.Jeweled Amulet & Paradise Mantle - Basically these are both potential alternatives to Springleaf Drum with different properties
The Amulet isn't even mana acceleration. It can only be tapped for mana every other turn, and it can't be tapped for mana the turn it comes into play, and each use beyond the first is actually mana inefficient. The lack of actual tempo/mana acceleration and its mana inefficiency kill the card. If you need color smoothing, play rainbow lands or drum.
Paradise Mantle, at best, breaks even in mana efficiency with Drum, and it can be played for free just for the artifact factor. At any point you would tap a second creature to produce mana, which happens all the time, Drum becomes more efficient than Paradise Mantle. Additionally, removal can hit creatures targeted to be equipped, preventing you from gaining a color; drum always produces the mana, regardless of removal.
I love the card (actually, playing a casual deck right now that uses it), but it doesn't have a place in the deck.Transmute Artifact - This is clearly a weak card b/c the deck doesn't currently run any bombs, but the potential synergy with Affinity cards is obvious as it can turn into Tinker jr.
The double blue makes the card almost unplayable.
TinkerJr. is card disadvantage, and it needs a target so powerful to the current gamestate that the CDisadvantage is worth it. Affinity doesn't have a bomb like that.
peace,
4eak
Last edited by 4eak; 01-30-2009 at 12:50 AM.
@ b4r0n
I'm not just worried about keeping the mana open (which is a tempo loss in itself), but I'm worried about the mana curve in general. Relic costs 2 mana (over separate turns if you want) to make it useful, and that is a chunk of mana for this deck.4eak: Could you elaborate a little bit more on why you think Crypt is better than Relic is this deck? Is it because you're worried about having to keep mana open for Relic?
Against decks like Ichorid, I need my GY hate up on turn 1 (which only crypt can do). Against other decks, I need the mana efficiency to maximize my aggression and I need the free-ness of Crypt to add artifact factor in the early game. Free is better than 2 mana as the mana efficiency of Crypt limits the damage to the aggressive nature of the deck, while still providing the same benefit (hitting the opponent's GY).
Relic is a strong card, and in any deck that seeks a longer more controlled game, or is scared of Goyf/Vore, Relic is just as viable (if not better) an option as Crypt. But, these are not Affinity's problems or strategies. Affinity can't afford the mana just to draw the card, it isn't looking for a long term game (so it doesn't care about top decking crypt vs. relic, nor does it emphasize the strength of relic's cantrip effect), and it doesn't care if it wipes its own GY most of the time.
Remember: we aren't afraid of Goyf (or Terravore). We tower over other creatures. We are afraid of combo-esque GY tricks though, and almost all of those circumstances are reliant upon the opponent's GY alone--making crypt just as functional as Relic. The mana just isn't worth it.
peace,
4eak
Could you give us a few more insights on sideboarding? What do you usually side out?
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity - Seneca, Roman dramatist
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