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Thread: [Deck] Zoo

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    [Deck] Zoo

    R/G/W Zoo Updated Thread

    What is it?

    R/G/W Zoo is just like it sounds, it is a savagely fast aggro deck that takes advantage of the most efficient and cost effective red/green/white spells in the game.

    Why play Zoo? Isn’t Goblins the best aggro deck?

    The deck is quite fast, but if you are going to play aggro, isn’t Goblins better? Yes and no. Zoo mulligans a lot less and has less dead draws. Usually after the initial onslaught Goblins is stuck drawing crappy 1/1 and 2/2 creatures, and bad Goblin Ringleaders can just lead to a loss. This is not the case with Zoo. Every creature you draw is a serious threat, especially with Jittes and Cursed Scroll in the deck. The worst creatures you can draw at and given time are Isamaru and Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny, which, are not all that bad themselves. In terms of speed, turn 3 kills are not possible like they are in Goblins. In Zoo, turn 4 kills happen around 20-35% of the time. Expect to win turns 5-6 usually, but this includes disruption from the opponent.

    Why Red/Green/White? Are additional splashes necessary?

    Zoo will always be R/G something. Because red has burn and green has cheap and large creatures like Tarmogoyf. But what about the third color? Why white? Until recently, R/G/B could have been just as good. With the printing of Wild Nacatl and Woolly Thoctar it send R/G/W into the optimal colors for Zoo. Nacatl is a 3/3 for G and Thoctar is a 5/4 for RGW. Also, white gives you access to Swords to Plowshares, Watchwolf, Lightning Helix, and Gaddock Teeg. You can play additional colors, having access to fetchlands enables you to play Domain Zoo if you want to, but the problem with playing 5 colors is that you are now very vulnerable to a single wasteland.

    Manabase

    Part of the reason this deck is so effective is that it is simple. Burn, big creatures, and a solid manabase. Only playing 3 colors enables the deck to run 1x of each basic, so you can fetch those out against decks that run Wasteland recursion. This is essential, basics play a large part of keeping the deck solid, especially against Moon effects and cards like Back to Basics. Basics also help in the burn matchups, just fetch them out to nullify Price of Progress. Horizon Canopy is another card that merits discussion. NEVER, play more than 2 in this deck. As long as you play 4x Wild Nactal and 4x Kird Ape do not run any more. Horizon Canopy is very good as a 1-of but playing anymore greatly hinders 8 of your creatures power level and makes the deck even more vulnerable to Wasteland. It is good when you are mana flooded or can’t find that green or white source, but should not be run as more than a 2 at all since it will mess with the consistency of the deck.

    Decklist and card explanation

    Here is a fully up-to-date list and SB of what a new R/G/W Zoo deck should look like followed by an explanation of each card:

    4x Tarmogoyf
    4x Kird Ape
    4x Wild Nactal
    4x Watchwolf
    3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    2x Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny
    2x Woolly Thoctar
    4x Swords to PlowShares
    4x Lightning Helix
    4x Lighting Bolt
    2x Cursed Scroll
    2x Jitte

    4x Wooded Foothills
    4x Windswept Heath
    3x Taiga
    3x Plateau
    3x Savannah
    1x Horizon Canopy
    1x Mountain
    1x Plains
    1x Forest

    Sideboard

    3x Pithing Needle
    3x Pyroclasm
    3x Vexing Shusher
    3x Ancient Grudge
    3x Gaddock Teeg

    Tarmogoyf - Needs no explanation, he is big, green, and wins games fast. Play no less than 4!

    Kird Ape - The second best 1CC creature in the deck. R for a 2/3 creature is pretty good, a long time staple in RG aggro, this deck is no exception, he is still spectacular and still fast, play 4!

    Wild Nactal – One of the main reasons to play white, it is G for a 3/3, spectacular creature, especially in the early game and in multiples! Play no less than 4!

    Watchwolf – GW for a 3/3 is damn good. He is big and fast. A lot of people seem to disagree with Watcholf being any good in Legacy, but test it out, the card is the third most common counter target, right behind Swords and Goyf! Puts the opponent on a fast clock, play 4!

    Isamaru, Hound of Konda – Easily the weakest creature in the deck, but W for a 2/2 is really good. If there was a bigger one drop creature without a drawback it would replace him, but as it stands, Isamaru is a damn good creature, but only play 3 since it is legendary!

    Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny – These are the 2x open slots in the deck, and it really varies. I have played both and I remember one tournament in particular where I ran 2x Figure of Destiny, I lost one game since it was not Legionnaire, and I won another since I could make it a 4/4. It really depends, these creatures usually get sided out anyway and both suck against Goblins, but I prefer Goblin Legionnaire in this spot since he is both a creature and burn and is usually a 2 for 1 or a finisher with the opponent at 2 life! If there is a lot of Dredge or Aggro Loam played in your meta you could run Jotun Grunt in this spot as well.

    Woolly Thoctar – This guy is a fucking monster! Because of his restrictive CC of RGW he should not be played a any more than a 2-of, and because he is the most expensive card in the deck! He does slow the deck down a little, but usually he is bigger than Goyf and at worst he trades with Goyf; usually he is immune to Counterbalance as well . He is a massive threat all his own and needs to be addressed immediately! Play no more than 2!

    Swords to Plowshares – Most people seem to think that running StP is ignorant since giving the opponent life is very counter-productive to the plan of Zoo. This could not be farther from the truth. StP is a utility removal spell. When you have Goyf, Ape, Nacatl, and Isamaru on the board, you could care less that the opponent is about to gain 3-5 life from their Goyf since you are about to swing in for a lot more! StP deals with any troublesome blockers like Goyf, Tombstalker, Nantuko Shade, or most any big late game threat your opponent may play. It is also a maindeck answer to Phyrexian Dreadnought! Not only does StP clear the path for your attack, but it also keeps you alive against burn, and in certain dire situations, can save you against an inexperienced tendrils combo players! Play no less than 4!

    Lightning Helix – Second best burn spell ever printed! This card single-handedly dominates the aggro mirror matches and ravages Goyf Sligh, play 4!

    Lighting Bolt – The best burn spell ever printed …. play 4!

    Cursed Scroll – This card is probably the most misunderstood in the deck. Most people won’t run it since it slows the deck down, much like the arguments against StP, the usefulness of Scroll trumps those arguments. Cursed Scroll dominates the Goblins matchup, one game I drew 6 lands in a row against Goblins and still won, since Scroll kills every single creature in their deck! Scroll also breaks Goyf standoffs and the general utility of a permanent burn spell is never useless in an aggro deck! R/G/W Zoo is a strange aggro deck, it is fast in the early game, but because the creatures are so effective it also has pretty good mid-late game! The card is just too valuable not to play, when the deck runs out of gas it is very nice to have a permanent 2 damage source that can’t be burned away or StPed! But everyone dismisses it based on goldfish speed, and it should absolutely be included in the deck! Play 2!

    Umezawa’s Jitte – Ironically this card is a lot like Cursed Scroll, it fundamentally slows the deck down by 1-3 turns but is still commonly played since .. it is that good. No argument from me, Jitte is spectacular, it dominates random aggro, makes burn cry, and turns every creature in the deck into an even more imminent threat! Play 2!

    Wooded Foothills – On color fetchlands, play 4!

    Windswept Heath – Same as above, do not play Bloodstained Mire in RGW Zoo, you have access to G/W and R/G fetchlands, that fact that your fetchlands can get on color basics is very important!

    Taiga/Plateau/Savannah – The deck has a very close ratio of R/G/W spells so just running 3 of each of these is the best plan!

    Horizon Canopy – Already explained why to run just 1, but it is a very good 1-of. If you wanted to replace it with anything, put a Taiga in its spot! DO NOT play any color-less lands in this deck, it will really hurt the consistency and make the deck even more vulnerable to Wasteland!

    Forest/Mountain/Plains – Already explained, 1 of each basic is very important!

    The SB should vary from each meta but this is what I run, my meta has EVERYTHING, you might play against, Affinity, U/G Madness, Stiflenought, B/W Confidant, ANT combo, Thresh, Goblins, Belcher, Lands! etc. This SB is optimized to be effective against most of the Legacy metagame and has been thoroughly tested:

    Pithing Needle – This card is vital and should be run in EVERY SB for Zoo! It should be at least as a 3-of! It helps against Maze of Ith, Vedalken Shackles, Engineered Explosives (this is key), Belcher, Putrid Imp, Survival of the Fittest, Sensei’s Diving Top (another key card), and numerous others! Play no less than 3!

    Pyroclasm – Great for fending off Dredge’s zombie tokens, makes the Elf and Goblins matchups nearly a bye, and gets rid of Empty the Warrens tokens. Not essential to the board, but if you expect lots of Goblins or Belcher, certainly bring this! 3 is good enough, 4 is almost overkill, I would not run any more than 3!

    Vexing Shusher – As Eric Foreman would say “YES YES”! Shusher is fucking amazing in every way, it answers the deck’s most problematic cards: Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance! Play no less than 3!

    Ancient Grudge – Here is where the metagame starts kicking in, there are TONS of Vedalken Shackles and Dreadnoughts running around in my meta. I choose to not run any form of enchantment destruction because Enchantress is such a horrid matchup and in my meta there are no enchantments that I really need to kill. Needle and Shusher are all you need for the Counterbalance matchup IMOP. This could easily be Naturalize/Krosan Grip but I much prefer Ancient Grudge, since Dreadstill is so commonly played in my meta. Also, Grudge deals with 2x threats from Dragon Stompy which is always nice. Grudge is a very underplayed card, and if you don’t expect much Enchantress or Prison effects, certainly run them! Play 3!

    Gaddock Teeg – If your meta has any form of combo your have to run this guy! He is the best form of combo hate that you can play in an aggro deck. He also stops Engineered Explosives, Force of Will, Belcher, and Wrath effects that Landstill may play! If you don’t have Teeg the next best creature to run is Ethersworn Canonist and after that Thorn of Amethyst. Those are the best forms of combo hate you can run. However, the combo matchup is not good anyway, but Teeg is run because of his dual role against stopping combo and his usefulness against EE and other cards.

    Here is a list of the creatures that could be used in RGW Zoo, but just don't make the cut.

    Mogg Fanatic - I've personally been a fan of Mogg since I started using him, but for Zoo, every one drop must have at least 2 power and 2 toughness. If you play this deck in a meta with lots of Dredge then look into Fanatic, otherwise don't worry about it. This deck is about speed, and Fanatic is great, BUT he is just an inferior card to draw during the mid-late game.

    Savannah Lions - A good 2/1 for one, but in Zoo we personally want to maximize each card's power AND toughness, so the 1 toughness just doesn't cut it.

    Jungle Lions - Same explanation as Savannah Lions, except for he can't even block.

    Skyshroud Elite - He was tested early on and was either really hit or miss. I just hate casting him turn one and then your opponent dropping a forest and a Llanowar Elves or a island and Top. He just isn't that good anymore and since Nactal was printed, he got the boot.

    Magus of the Moon - Absolutely terrible, turning all your lands into Mountains is bad for Zoo. I couldn't actually see him being used in the main or board for any Zoo deck. Turning your opponent’s lands into mountains is cute, but why do you want to do this when you can just win?

    Magus of the Scroll – Why not just run Cursed Scroll???

    Grim Lavamancer - There has been a lot of arguing between him and Cursed Scroll, but the dissynergy with Goyf and the fact that he can be removed off the board so easily makes him weak. He is good, but in a deck that’s all about quick, fast, efficient creatures, he just isn’t good. Plus we don't play enough actual spells like Goyf Sligh to utilize him properly.

    Serra Avenger/White Knight/Silver Knight - All of these cards are really good, but costing WW in a 3 color deck without manafixers in a format that plays Wastleland is just bad.

    Woolly Thoctars 3&4 - Having to fetch all duals is suicide sometimes. His casting cost can be tough because it costs both 3 and WGR and there will be times, where it will be stuck in your hand. In multiples it is terrible, but drawing one in the mid-late game … hot sauce!

    Nimble Mongoose - Hitting Threshold is really tough in this deck and the opponent really should be dead by the time you would achieve Thresh or late game it can’t wear Jitte.

    Troll Ascetic - Too mana intensive and slow. Damn good card … but not in a pure aggro deck.

    Jotun Grunt - AMAZING card, and was used early on in testing, but the dissynergy with Goyf was just too much. Could possibly be used in the sideboard against Dredge and Aggro Loam. The problem is, he usually gets in 1 swing then dies, this deck just doesn’t play enough spells to maintain it.

    Scab Clan Mauler - WAY too conditional. You want stuff late game that will still be 2/2 3/3 for 1 or 2.

    Blade of the Sixth Pride - With a toughness of 1, and nothing special except it's cost, it isn't that good.

    Silhana Ledgewalker - Shroud is good, really good, but his 1/1-ness makes him unplayable especially with no pump spells.

    Matchup analysis:

    Threshold - 60/40 in Zoo'z favor. Red Variants have bolts which hinder us. A lot of our creatures can trade/kill Mongoose fairly easy. But you know Thresh, it can just get nuts hands and counter everything relevant. Countertop is also bad news for us, Shusher in the board helps but only if you draw him. But this being a pure aggro deck sometimes it can just do its thing and go nuts. Be careful if they play Engineered Explosives to not overextend. SB really varies depending on which version you are playing against but usually go -3 Isamaru, -2 Goblin Legionnaire. Jitte can also be sided out but ONLY if they run Counterbalance; also against Counterbalance take out Lightning Bolts to make them work to counter your spells and every card in the deck a permanent threat.

    Team America - TA has a problem dealing with multiple threats, and the fact that they run Snuff Out is great for us. They only run 8 threats and since StP is your friend this matchup is quite easy. This is essential, remember this, MULLIGAN into a hand that has a basic in it or duals, if your only lands are fetches, throw the hand away unless you are on the play to avoid Stifle and be weary of Daze, play the match slower. You don’t have to aggro them out as fast as you can, just take your time, the longer the game goes the better for you. You can chumps block Goyf all day and two burn spells, Cursed Scroll + burn spell, or Swords can handle Tombstalker. Overall it is about 75/25 in favor of Zoo. Just aim to keep a somewhat land heavy hand. No SB is necessary, but you could put in either Teeg or Shusher but they don’t play enough counters to justify Shusher and Teeg only shuts off Force and Snuff Out.

    Goblins - This matchup is almost a joke. Every creature in this deck is better than theirs, and you have better removal. Pyroclasm from the board makes this matchup even more insane. 80/20 in my opinion from testing pre-board and 90-10 post. The only loss I have ever taken from Goblins is when I didn’t hit land number three until turn 13. Seriously, its that bad. Cursed Scroll shines here, it kills every creature in their deck again and again! SB like this: -2 Goblin Legionnaire, -1 Isamaru and +3 Pyroclasm.

    Dreadstill - Dreadnaught is hard to deal with before sideboard, the only real answer to Dreadnought is Swords to Plowshares. Countertop once again is a pain, because it shuts off a LOT of the deck. Plus they have Engineered Explosives/Academy Ruins which "Ruins" our day. Wasteland can be bad news but it really depends. It also varies with the build you are playing against, the versions with Goyf are a lot easier. Pre-board it is about 65/35 in favor of Dreadstill. But things get a LOT better after the SB. Out of the 3 times in a tournament that I have ran into Dreadstill I have never lost the match, that is because Ancient Grudge OWNS that deck. If they don’t run Counterbalance you don’t need to bring in Shusher because playing to many bears can lead to Mishra’s Factory becoming a problem but based on the number of Counterspells SB accordingly. Usually SB something like this: -4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Isamaru, -2 Goblin Legionnaire, -2 Jitte, -1 Kird Ape and +3 Teeg, +3 Shusher, +3 Needle (EE, Top, Factory, Wasteland), +3 Ancient Grudge.

    Ad Nausem Tendrils - Terrible matchup ... no main deck answers at all. Just hope they keep a terrible hand and you can aggro out on them or they go into Bolt range from AdN. Its probably something like 85/15 in favor of Ad Nauseam. SB like this: -2 Woolly Thoctar, -2 Jitte, -2 Goblin Legionnaire and +3 Teeg, +3 Ancient Grudge.

    Survival- Recurring threats backed up by hand destruction can be bad. But the deck isn’t super fast and Zoo is, this is truly a race matchup it is a little in favor of Zoo, probably 55/45. SB like this: -2 Goblin Legionnaire, -1 Isamaru and +3 Pithing Needle.

    Eva Green - They run Snuff Out, and their threats die to almost all of our removal. Discard and Wasteland are annoying, but we can play through it. Maindeck Seal of Primordium bad as well since Jitte and Scroll are great in this matchup. 60/40 in our favor. Especially if it goes late game, everything in this deck is a threat, and ours are a lot better than theirs. SB: -2 Isamaru and +2 Ancient Grudge (for their Jitte).

    Dragon Stompy - Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Blood Moon effects all ruin your day. Arc Slogger is scary since it can and will kill your threats rather easy. Just hope they keep a bad hand and aim to keep one with a basic in it. About a 70/30 matchup in their favor. SB like this: -2 Woolly Thoctar, -2 Cursed Scroll, -1 Goblin Legionnaire, -1 Isamaru and +3 Ancient Grudge and +3 Shusher.

    Mono Blue Control - If the game goes too long they will just beat you. So kill them early or you pretty much have no hope. Countertop turn two sucks but the threats in this deck are so good it only takes a few to go a long way. If they don’t run Counterbalance it is very hard for them to win. Vexing Shushers just beat them though. Its really bad after SB, just mull into Shusher. SB like this: -2 Jitte and -1 Isamaru and +3 Shusher.

    Belcher - If they Belch you then you lose, but if they happen to have to Empty the Warrens, you can come back with a lot of blockers and pinpoint removal, even then, it's still a nightmare. This deck can actually race (on the play) a turn 1 Empty for 10-12. But any more than that it’s bad. Since Belcher is a glass cannon its either going to win fast or lose gloriously. It’s about a 80/20 matchup in favor of Belcher. If they don’t win on turns 1-2 then Teeg will devastate them. SB like this: -2 Woolly Thoctar, -2 Jitte, -2 Cursed Scroll, -2 Goblin Legionnaire, -4 Swords to Plowshares and +3 Pithing Needle, +3 Teeg, +3 Pyroclasm, +3 Ancient Grudge.

    A special thanks goes out to Loxodon Baileyarch for helping me write the primer and for just being awesome and playing Zoo!
    Last edited by Pulp_Fiction; 05-17-2009 at 02:38 PM.
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  2. #2
    is the freaking Zoo-ru!
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    Now time to start some discussion. Cursed Scroll v.s. Grim Lavamancer/Rancor

    But yeah i hope everyone enjoys this thread. We put alot of time into it.
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  3. #3

    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    List looks okay. I would up the anti-combo cards in your sideboard though, just because I don't like the idea of autolosing to any and all storm based combo. But hey, it's all about what you expect ot face.

    Here is the list that I would play...

    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Mountain
    1 Forest
    1 Plains
    3 Savannah
    3 Taiga
    3 Plateau
    1 Horizon Canopy

    4 Wild Nacatl
    4 Kird Ape
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Gadook Teeg
    3 Woolly Thoctar
    2 Additional Creatures

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    3 Lightning Helix
    2 Price of Progress/Fireblast

    4 PtE/StP
    2 Rancor

    The two additional creatures would probably be Watchwolf. But a case could be made for any of the following...

    Watchwolf
    Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    Figure of Destiny
    Skyshroud Elite

    or if additional utility is desired...

    Grim Lavamancer
    Goblin Legionaire
    Vexing Shusher
    Tin-Street Hooligan
    Ethersworn Canonist

    Everyone of these creatures probably merits some consideration/discussion.

    As for the Cursed Scroll vs. Rancor vs. Lavamancer debate, I'm going to side with Rancor here. Scroll is very slow and this is a fast deck. And Lavamancer can be slow or have poor synergy with Goyf. Also, making your Nactal/Watchwolf big enough to trade with Tombstalker, 4/5 Goyf or Doran is pretty powerful.

    Also, I would love to test my Doran Suicide list against your Zoo build. I've had a very favorable record with Doran Sui against random fast aggro decks very similar to Zoo (Tombstalker + Doran + Goyf all make for very unsurmountable walls when needed). But your list looks more solid than anything I've faced. So I want to see if it's still favorable or not. I mainly want to see what percentage of the time I manage to colorscrew you using Sinkhole + Hymn + Vindicate + Hyppe + Wasteland.

    Maybe tom or thurs evening. PM me if you're up for it.
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 02-10-2009 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Updated the list.

  4. #4

    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    No mention of Tin-Street Hooligan? That's most likely what I'd have in those two flex slots.

  5. #5
    is the freaking Zoo-ru!
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    As for the Cursed Scroll vs. Rancor vs. Lavamancer debate, I'm going to side with Rancor here. Scroll is very slow and this is a fast deck. And Lavamancer can be slow or have poor synergy with Goyf. Also, making your Nactal/Watchwolf big enough to trade with Tombstalker, 4/5 Goyf or Doran is pretty powerful.
    I know this is a fast deck, but Cursed Scroll not only improves your late game, but it also helps dealing with Goyfs and Dorans like Rancor does.

    Plus late game when you are in topdeck mode, Cursed Scroll is a great card to have or draw. While Rancor just kinda sits in your hand doing nothing. Just try it out, we wouldn't have chosen it in the list if it hadn't proved itself over and over again. Plus it makes Goblins/Random Fish decks almost a joke matchup. We sacrifice speed for consistency.
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  6. #6

    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    Hi,

    You are right, but I think that cursed scroll should rather be in the board for those match ups ... I would prefer more burn for a faster finish in this slot.

    Perhaps fireblast could be an option, because it would also have an impact to the AD Nauseum matchups.


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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    IMO, ethersworn canonist is a better combo hozer than teeg, as while teeg keeps them from using their kill/engine, they can still tutor for bounce, bounce him, and go off all in one turn. Canonist keeps their spell-based mana accel at bay, and buys you at least two turns, which, with burn, should be enough. (also less color-intensive)

    It is of note that niether Teeg nor canonist stop a doomsday helm/top stack with grapeshot as the kill. (assuming they set up the turn before they go off, and you don't kill them... well, I suppose with all the burn and critters in zoo, if they doomsday and pass, they are probably not winning that one barring an upkeep chant.)

    I also think that 3 slots in the SB is not going to be anywhere near enough hate to beat combo even 30% postboard, so I question if those slots are better used against other MUs. (relic would help vs loam, dredge, and TA type decks) Glass cannons are best when they have good-very good MUs against everything but combo, and I think Zoo's goal is simply not to run into a combo deck.

    EDIT: MOAR fireblast, probably better than teeg vs combo, and improves your clock by a turn or so
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  8. #8
    Argghhh!! Mmm.. This is BAD!!
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    I've been playing Zoo ang RG beats since I was first introduced to the game.. Maybe 6-7 years ago. And I always enjoyed to play this archtype..

    First off: I don't understand the exclusion of Grim Lavamancer. It's way faster than Cursed Scroll. It doesn't care how your hand looks, AND it can hit for 1 should it be necessary.
    Often I play Lavamancer turn 1 (Obviously when I havn't got a Nacatl/Ape).
    Sometimes it hit for 1 all game through. Other times it hit for 1 the first 1-3 turns. And from thereon.. -It shoots!

    YES! - It succubs to critterremoval.. But that's a great deal! Then your bigger critters will stick on the board and hit for even more! - Great deal!

    All in all: Lavamancer is cheaper and it can hit. Aside from that it's similar to Scroll.. Scroll cost more to activate and only works properly if you have one card in hand. Lavamancer needs two cards from the yard.. -Big deal.. Most of the time you have plenty of leftovers to throw away. I rarely experience problems with Lavamancers activationcost.

    Cursed scroll might be a dead card. Lavamancer can hit for 1 or chumpblock if the shit hits the fan. -At it's worst!

    I can't imagine playing zoo without Lavamancer!


    Rancor is an awesome card! Always loved it and played it alot! For Zoo though.. -It is shit!

    From time to time, it can be great! No doubt! Though it seldom is.. Critterremoval in response to a Rancor = 2 for 1. That SUCKS in Zoo since we don't draw any cards beside the 1-a-turn.

    Most of the time you'd just love to have another critter instead!


    Furthermore I never understood the inclusion of Isamaru. Especially not as a 3-of. It's not a critter that's likely to get KIA'ed. That makes the second and third copy redundant. It's small and the focus in this deck is BIG! Either that or an alternate way of dealing damage (Lavamancer/Fanatic).

    Alot of people stated that Skyshroud Elite combined with Kird Ape was way to many 2/3's for a Zoo deck.. Why cut them for 2/2's? ;)

    We have 8-12 x (3)/(2) // 3's. I just don't think the 2/2's make the cut! They're too small!

    On that same note, I've tested Goblin Legionnaire as well. WR for a 2/2 isn't impressive.. I can shoot for 2 - Once.. -Unlike Lavamancer which is a 1-drop!


    Jitte seems kinda overkill to me. It slows the deck down and doesn't deal damage by itself. I hate to see cards in Zoo that depend on other cards to deal damage. In Zoo I'd like to be able to topdeck a card and deal 2-3+ damage then and there or on my next turn. - Doing nothing in Zoo gets you killed! 2+ damage might be the points you need to finish off your opponent..
    I have, however, played Jitte in the board. Since I think my preboard aggro(/control) and burn match is acceptable.


    I totally agree on StP! I've tested without it and it's just way to good! Maybe we should play Path to Exile instead.. ;)

    I haven't played alot recently, but when I did I played 3 Thoctar. Though I might, as well as you, cut one of 'em.

    I'm not too big a fan of Watchwolf in Zoo. Though I'm having a hard time finding a better choice.. So we might be stuck with him until something better surfaces.

    I wouldn't use Hooligan.. Especially not in main! -I'd rather have Ancient Grudge which is alot more gamebreaking.
    You might consider Hooligan main in an extremely artifact-heavy meta.. (?)

    I'll post a list some other day.. At the moment I have a list with B-splash. I'm going to make the 3-color version again. I hate inconsistencies in the manabase..
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  9. #9
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    Is there any particular reason a zoo deck would not be interested in shadow creatures?

    I test aggro decks all the time, and I have to admit that, in most cases, shadow creatures are quite powerful. All too often aggro decks are looking to push through that last bit of damage, and similar to burn's primary role in this deck, shadow creatures help to accomplish that goal. Zoo pays the color-smoothing price (in non-basics and tight manabases) to be a multi-colored non-CDisadvantageous-suicide aggro deck which emphasizes mana efficiency for maximum P/T with some burn on the side. In this type of deck, I think evasion should be calculated as part of how we interpret a creature's effective P/T and mana efficiency.

    While I rarely present decks by CC, it is actually fairly appropriate for this archetype. Assuming we aren't splashing for black, we'd need to play white shadows. Try this one:


    1cc Creatures: 12
    4 Kird Ape
    4 Wild Nacatl
    2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda (suffers from diminishing returns in multiples)
    2 Figure of Destiny (suffers from dimreturns also)

    2cc Creatures: 11
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Soltari Trooper (Priest/Monk are okay as well)
    4 Watchwolf/River Boa (can't have Troll, but this is quite strong as well)

    3cc Creatures: 4
    4 Soltari Champion (puts up a lot of damage)

    Stay in Aggro Role Spells: 12
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Lightning Helix/Chain Lightning (speaking of mana efficiency)
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    Mana-Base: 21
    4x Wooded Foothills
    4x Windswept Heath
    3x Taiga
    4x Plateau
    3x Savannah
    1x Mountain
    1x Plains
    1x Forest

    Sideboard: 15
    3 Pithing Needle
    4 Vexing Shusher (I side these in quite a bit)
    4 Jitte (because there are lots of decks where I want to see equipment every game)
    4 Krosan Grip (never leave home without it)


    I took out Teeg because you won't be defeating combo unless you devote way more of your deck to beating it. Since it was brought up, I would also like to mention that Shadows are very powerful against MUC as they have a difficult time trading against you with Shackled creatures--you stop the war of attrition very quickly when you can split it ground/shadow on the table.



    peace,
    4eak

  10. #10
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    Another nice decklist of you Pulp_Fiction, but I'd rethink the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction View Post
    4x Watchwolf
    3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    2x Goblin Legionnaire/Figure of Destiny
    Basically FoD is a 2/2 for 2 that can grow to a 4/4 (forever, once paid .. and you can even play him for 1) that makes him imho better than the others. I would play 3 of it as it is mana-intensive.
    And in tournament play Skyshroud Elite seems to be just better than Isamaru.

    So I would play:

    3x Figure of Destiny
    2x-4x Skyshroud Elite
    2x-4x Watchwolf/Goblin Legionaire (I don't know whick is needed more)

    The numbers depend on the manacurve that I haven't analysed ;)

  11. #11
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Seregrauko View Post
    First off: I don't understand the exclusion of Grim Lavamancer. It's way faster than Cursed Scroll. It doesn't care how your hand looks, AND it can hit for 1 should it be necessary.
    Often I play Lavamancer turn 1 (Obviously when I havn't got a Nacatl/Ape).
    Sometimes it hit for 1 all game through. Other times it hit for 1 the first 1-3 turns. And from thereon.. -It shoots!

    YES! - It succubs to critterremoval.. But that's a great deal! Then your bigger critters will stick on the board and hit for even more! - Great deal!

    All in all: Lavamancer is cheaper and it can hit. Aside from that it's similar to Scroll.. Scroll cost more to activate and only works properly if you have one card in hand. Lavamancer needs two cards from the yard.. -Big deal.. Most of the time you have plenty of leftovers to throw away. I rarely experience problems with Lavamancers activationcost.

    Cursed scroll might be a dead card. Lavamancer can hit for 1 or chumpblock if the shit hits the fan. -At it's worst!

    I can't imagine playing zoo without Lavamancer!
    It's personal preference and a metagame call. Also i've said a million times before in sacrifices speed for consistency. People seem to think that Zoo must win in the first four turns or something, idk.. but it has a really strong mid/late game too. And Cursed scroll can't die to creature removal. Plus playing Jitte and Scroll makes your opponent almost always want to board in Ancient Grudge/Krosan Grip, then you just take em out!

    And on the topic of Skyshroud Elite. Try playing with him in a meta full of random shit. I play at least one mono green elf deck a week. It's not worth it.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    I’m interested to know what was the most aggressive list you guys tested. More specifically, which matchups were hurt by trying to win as fast as possible. I assume you reached a point in testing against deck X or archtype Y where you felt trying to win fast cost you the game/match.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction View Post
    In terms of speed, turn 3 kills are not possible
    As you guys know, I tend to insist on a much more aggressive build of Zoo. I like Turn 4 kills to happen a lot and I even ripped off a pair of 3rd turn kills in consecutive rounds this past weekend. 2-0ing Dreadstill due to fast beats (and Ancient Grudge/K. Grip in game 2) was especially satisfying
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    I'm going to side with Rancor here... making your Nactal/Watchwolf big enough to trade with Tombstalker, 4/5 Goyf or Doran is pretty powerful.
    Ummm, hell yeah. Rancor on a 1st turn Nacatl just gets in there for 10 by turn three sometimes. Add a couple of bolts and its game over.

  13. #13
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch View Post
    It's personal preference and a metagame call. Also i've said a million times before in sacrifices speed for consistency. People seem to think that Zoo must win in the first four turns or something, idk.. but it has a really strong mid/late game too. And Cursed scroll can't die to creature removal. Plus playing Jitte and Scroll makes your opponent almost always want to board in Ancient Grudge/Krosan Grip, then you just take em out!

    And on the topic of Skyshroud Elite. Try playing with him in a meta full of random shit. I play at least one mono green elf deck a week. It's not worth it.

    Sure it's personal preference.. Alot of cardchoices are. But it's not an excuse for making suboptimal choices ;) Not saying that Scroll is completely banned in Zoo. I love the ability. I just think that Lavamancer offers a better/cheaper version of it. I don't see Lavamancers vunerability as a weakness. Alot of the time my Lavamancer attracts removal (and does so for R) so that my Goyf/Thoctar/Something big may swing through for more damage than the Lavamancer would ever do. Alot of decks just don't want you to be able to shoot for 2. I rarely miss my Mancer when it gets nailed.. I love it as a StP-magnet! It's cool to have a 1/1 for 1 that alot of decks have to spend their removal on..
    On the "kill before turn 4" note I'd like to state that I definitely aim at a quick kill. This deck can pack a punch midgame, yes. Lategame it usually sucks. And against combo and control I'd hate to sit with my useless Scroll. I'd rather have a 1/1 critter that hits and, when I can spare the R, shoots for 2! And these matches are the hard ones. You don't need infinite "shoot-for-2" like scroll offers.. That's mostly to fight off aggro-decks which you own anyway.. Lavamancer's more aggressive. A plan you need to fight your bad MU's!


    Regarding Grudge/Grip: Most players vil board artifact hate to fight Needles (which comes in alot of the time). You might as well advocate having the artifacts in your board so that your opponent has to choose between Jitte, Needle AND Scroll ;) -Kiddin'! It's a valid argument.
    But again I like my Jittes in the board. I don't need cards MD that fights aggro/aggro-control and the occasional burn. These MU's are acceptable preboard IMO. Then I'd rather have Needle main! I wouldn't do that either though.. Since it doesn't deal damage.
    MEMENTO MORI!

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  14. #14
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    @Seregrauko:

    Needle can do damage my friend, with Karn in play

    And idk like i can see why Goyf Sligh runs Mancer, bc it's mostly burn. Like in Zoo you have way more creatures than burn, and i've never really filled my graveyard up enough to use Mancer maybe 3 times, and even then my Goyf got smaller. Like i understand your argument, but look at it from my point of view too.

    And people just don't board in artifact hate for Needles, they board it in for all sorts of stuff. Like Krosan Grip and Ancient Grudge are useful is so many matchups it's insane. So i don't understand what you mean there.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    Firstly: Don't get me wrong! I totally respect your POV. I just fail to understand it as the best choice for the deck ;)

    And yes, people don't only board arti-hate because of Needle, but it's definitely one of the main reasons.. My point in that matter was kinda bleak. You know, I think it's VERY random. Play Jitte+Scroll main or.. -Not the big difference to me since I wouldn't be playing Scroll at all ;) -Jitte though, I don't get why it's MD?

    And yeah! Why don't people play som more Karns.. Then my Gleemax would totally rock! ([INSERT DEVIL SMILEY] - Why haven't we got any of those BTW?)
    MEMENTO MORI!

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  16. #16
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    @Seregrauko:

    I think the list that is posted is the best possible list Zoo could have. If you want to play Rancor and Lavamancer, then sure it's your call, i'm never gonna have to play you.

    Have you ever used Jitte? It makes every creature, no matter what it's power/toughness a hella lot better. It kills creatures, gains life, and pumps. I don't see how that is bad at all.
    Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
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  17. #17

    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    I made this RWG Zoo deck the day I cracked my first pack of the new set and saw Nacatl. I played it twice in legacy events. Placing 2nd and 3rd. The mana curve is 30 cards at one mana and 10 cards at two. First turn chalice is immediate GG :(

    4 Figure of Destiny
    1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    4 Kird Ape
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Wild Nacatl

    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Lightning Helix
    3 Orim's Chant
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    2 Rancor
    3 Isochron Scepter

    1 Forest
    1 Mountain
    1 Plains
    4 Plateau
    3 Savannah
    3 Taiga
    3 Windswept Heath
    4 Wooded Foothills

    Sideboard
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Gaddock Teeg
    3 Vexing Shusher
    3 Krosan Grip
    2 Shattering Spree
    3 Pithing Needle

    Figure of Destiny: simply amazing. Something to do with excess mana and strongly improves mid to late game.

    These are all obvious choices. I also didn't like fanatic in the deck (except vs Ichorid).
    Isamaru, Hound of Konda (JUST ONE!)
    Kird Ape
    Tarmogoyf
    Wild Nacatl

    My only comment on these critters is that isamaru and kird apes are the weakest link, often being stuck up against 3/3 mongoose that I can't remove. Some games I hate my 2/3 critters. Nacatl is the MVP. The difference between 2/3 and 3/3 is HUGE.

    Chain Lightning: Powers Goyf. Adds more direct burn which helps in a lot of match ups. I find it more useful than the 2nd tier creature choices.

    Orim's Chant: Obviously its good on a stick, but this can easily play as a "timewalk" in this deck. A couple Nacatls and a couple chants usually means GG on turn 4. Strongly improves match-up vs combo, and enchantress. Don't underestimate the power of throwing chant at your opponent to prevent main turn removal like EE or wrath. This deck creates a fast clock.

    Rancor: awesome... This is really great on the isamaru and kird apes. Making a 3/3 mongoose null and void.

    Isochron Scepter: The deck has no card draw whatsoever. Scepter often represents card advantage. It seems to work very well. Sometmes the aggro plan just doesn't work, and this is another trick up your sleave. Chant is nice, helix is more fun and totally bad ass. Often I hold scepter until four mana. So as to cast the imprint immediately or during their next upkeep.

    Other than chalice/counterbalance, the deck's other weakness is bad draws resulting in mulligan. I ran 18 land for quite a while, but the mulligans got too fierce... If you think you can take the heat, I'd cut 1 land and 1 isamaru for 2 Jitte or for 2 thoctar (which are very good btw).

    P.S. - 4EAK - Your decklist looks like a "bye" for combo.

    P.S.S. - Playing the deck it is always better to fetch your basic land if you can. The deck functions great with one of each basic and can also be very weak to wastelands.

  18. #18
    Here I Rule!!!!!!!!!!
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    I like the thread and it's move to Established forums (finally). I'm just wondering why there has been no mention of the cursed scroll slot being Isochron Scepter. EDIT: except for being ninja'd by viscosity With StoP and Helix on a stick, you win 95% of the games. As a 2-of, it doesn't get in the way that often, but definitely swings slow matchups like landstill or thresh or any control like MUC and Quinn.

    Also with a minor adjustment to the manabase you guys could house 4x Figure of Destiny, who is in my opinion the scariest 1-drop in legacy. Such a gigantic beater and great pseudo-card advantage through not wasting burns but spending mana to pump him. Watchwolf just doesn't seem good enough.

    Also, as much as I like Wooly Thoctar, I recently tried Grafted Wargear in his place. This card really is amazing, as it turns any creature in the deck into a big enough threat to eat goyfs or 1/4ths or 1/2s of opponent's life totals. Also, equip for 0 is so sexy it hurts.

  19. #19

    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    I ninja'ed you on the 4x figures too :P

    Wouldn't you rather play rancor over wargear? its a one drop so is doing damage earlier, plus trample... I'll have to playtest wargear to be sure though.

  20. #20
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    Re: Updated: R/G/W Zoo

    @Viscosity: I like the idea of Orim's Chant in the maindeck actually haha. I had in my sideboard forever and it was my only combo hate card, until i got some Gaddock Teeg, and i've been liking him better.

    Like with the idea of Scepter/Chant in this deck, i could totally see fixing some cards around and making it like a midrange Zoo deck.

    But maybe it's just me...
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