Would the format be more interesting without Tarmogoyf?

[Occam]

What decks would be instantly made more viable if 'Goyf was banned? What ones would be made instantly less viable if 'Goyf was banned? If a deck has to scoop because their 'Goyf died or a 'Goyf resolved, the deck has problems to begin with.

What would have changed or would not have changed if Bush didn't get re-elected for a second term? The difficulty in answering that question is the same as that involved in answering your question here, albeit on a much higher scale -- you cannot assume ceteris paribus while simply removing goyf from the format, simply because there might be plenty of decks that are not has-beens, but are never-wases, due to the presence of tarmogoyf. Theory-crafting has already been applied ad-nauseam here with respect to creatures goyf has invalidated to at least a certain extent. I get the feeling that a lot of people asking these questions do so knowing that it is impossible to answer in a satisfactory manner.

As for the argument that a deck has problems when it loses to goyf, that's just an ignorant statement that sets discussion threads like this back. If we transpose the modern US army onto medieval Japan, and sword-wielding samurai are getting mown down by machine-gun fire, it likely isn't due to problems with the former (unless you count not being unfairly ahead of the curve as a problem), but rather a problem with the latter. There is a thin line here, but there will be appreciation all around if these dismissive arguments were not made.

Just to name a tangent, relevant example...


People have discussed banning either Sensei's Divining Top or Counterbalance, as the strongest strategy in the format.

I admit that Balance-Top may be the strongest strategy playing Tarmogoyf. However... don't you think the power of Balance-Top would be drastically reduced if

a) They could no longer splash green to have the best beater and, more precisely;

b) Their combo could no longer reliably counter the strongest creatures in an opponents deck?

I would add a c) Their combo isn't the most reliable at protecting their own Tarmogoyfs?

Option c) has other far-reaching ramifications as tarmogoyf, more so than goblin lackey, forces removal to be cheap due to its efficiency, making counter-top all the more effective. To a certain extent, all of Legacy would likely have been affected similarly to a certain degree -- if a creature-based deck can't keep up with a highly efficient early game beater, it either joins in the shenanigans, or it gets shipped out.

As I mentioned before, (Zoo with goyf) - (Zoo without goyf) <<< (Thresh with goyf) - (Thresh without goyf). Although the net increment is the same on the surface for all decks, aggro-control 1) does not run up to 16 other creatures that are not goyf, and which are usually horribly outclassed by the latter 2) is able to better search for and protect its goyfs and 3) Is better able to counter or remove aggro's goyfs. The equality of increments is only illusionary in almost all of these comparisons.

[ForceofWill]

All I can say is 99% of the time I'd rather my opponent play tarmogoyf on turn 2 over counterbalance or dark confidant.

[frogboy]

All I can say is 99% of the time I'd rather my opponent play tarmogoyf on turn 2 over counterbalance or dark confidant.

This, for sure. Nice Elvish Warrior.

[matelml]

All I can say is 99% of the time I'd rather my opponent play tarmogoyf on turn 2 over counterbalance or dark confidant.

Which doesn't necessarilly say anything about Tarmogoyf being stronger than other creatures in general, nor about tarmogoyf having a significant effect on the diversity of the format.

[eq.firemind]

Hey people, you know, the main thing is that it's the game. And the game must be interesting. And I feel no interest in winning by Goyf. He is so powerful, but he is too DUMB-powerful to be interesting to play it. And he feels better in B/U envioment than in W/R, cause your Discard/Counterspells can pump your goyf +2/+2 (by countering/discarding opposing goyf most of the times ), and your white/red spells most of the times will pump it just for +1/+1. And there is no main-green deck that can use full-power Goyf. IMHO, the best thing to solve the problem is ban goyf(well, let it stay in Vintage) and print the new card with the same p/t and text, but with GG cost. It'll be still really powerful card, but it will requre a lot more things to make it powerful (means "more fun to play it" for me) in less-green decks. And there will be no problem like "the best answer to Newgoyf is splash green and play Newgoyf by yourself".

[undone]

All I can say is 99% of the time I'd rather my opponent play tarmogoyf on turn 2 over counterbalance or dark confidant.

I dont know if this is true if you have 0 lands in play when they play the card. It seems like goyf> CB/confidant because it kills you in 4ish turns by itself and if you only get to 4 lands the entire games (oh yah and theres always wasteland)

I really think that the aggro control decks have become two totaly differant set of decks.

Tempo and counter top. Tempo is better against tribal/weenie aggro and the mirror , and counter top is better against not tribal aggro and the mirror.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As I said before, I think Counter-Top actually makes the format more interesting by actually punishing low casting curves and forcing mana cost diversity. Tarmogoyf is the card that I find utterly boring and counter-productive to having a competitive, interesting game.

[majikal]

And there is no main-green deck that can use full-power Goyf.

Berserk Stompy disagrees with you. That mofo gets huge really fast.

[dirtyapes]

Tarmogoyf is the card that I find utterly boring and counter-productive to having a competitive, interesting game.

Since boring and interesting are completely objective things, can you please cite some examples of how Tarmogoyf has made the format less competitive? I personally haven't seen it but if you have then I would like to see it.

[DeathwingZERO]

Since boring and interesting are completely objective things, can you please cite some examples of how Tarmogoyf has made the format less competitive? I personally haven't seen it but if you have then I would like to see it.

Look over the thread and see how many creatures that were once top contenders the card has obsoleted. Competition in design space = competition in the red zone in games.

That alone is good enough example, and for many, the primary one.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you take deck design and creature selection, as well as counter-measures into account, then certainly Tarmogoyf has made the format less interesting. You know you're going to be playing against Tarmogoyf at least half the time in a tournament, probably more if you're doing well. You know that Tarmogoyf is the best creature to run if you can in any deck, at any time, in any metagame. It removes a lot of the skill from the deck design aspects of the game.

[dirtyapes]

Look over the thread and see how many creatures that were once top contenders the card has obsoleted. Competition in design space = competition in the red zone in games.

That alone is good enough example, and for many, the primary one.

Werebear. I would give you Goblin Lackey but people keep bringing Vial Goblins to tournaments and T8ing(it is in the DTB forum). So Wizards printed a rare that is better than a common. This is a tragedy that needs to be addressed.

[Jak]

Werebear. I would give you Goblin Lackey but people keep bringing Vial Goblins to tournaments and T8ing(it is in the DTB forum). So Wizards printed a rare that is better than a common. This is a tragedy that needs to be addressed.

Thank you for reading.

[dirtyapes]

If you take deck design and creature selection, as well as counter-measures into account, then certainly Tarmogoyf has made the format less interesting. You know you're going to be playing against Tarmogoyf at least half the time in a tournament, probably more if you're doing well. You know that Tarmogoyf is the best creature to run if you can in any deck, at any time, in any metagame. It removes a lot of the skill from the deck design aspects of the game.

By counter-measures, do you mean cards like Swords, Edicts, and the how many other creature removal spells? Or do you mean graveyard removal cards like Crypts and Leylines? I have a sneaking suspicion that people will still use these cards even if Tarmogoyf was banned.
As far as deck design, you cannot take 36 random cards + 20 lands + 4 Tarmogoyfs and have a deck to beat. You still have to make card choices but there are already set cards for each color that are the best at what they do. Unless you found a way to break Cancel so you don't have to run Force of Will, you are going to play Force of Will instead of Cancel because it is more efficient. So making an original deck design becomes harder and harder because people know the most efficient ways to use cards. Tarmogoyf is the most efficient creature so he will get the nod over others. Swords get the nod over other white removal, Lightning Bolt is better than Incinerate, Force of Will is better than Cancel. This is not making the format less interesting unless interesting means 100% Rogue decks that are sans Tarmogoyf.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean the balance of creatures and creature removal generally. It's a pretty reliable bet that the decks you're playing against will be running 4 Goyf and some combination of utility/backup creatures like Tombstalker or Trinket Mage/Mishra's Factory. Primarily, the threat will be Goyf.

It means you don't really have to metagame your threat/answer component as much. You know that Sower of Temptation will generally be stronger, Wrath of God and Damnation weaker; Shackles will generally be out, any red removal will be crap. Rhox War Monk, for instance, as we discussed in another thread, will be a poor answer against the large majority of creature decks you play against.

[DeathwingZERO]

By counter-measures, do you mean cards like Swords, Edicts, and the how many other creature removal spells? Or do you mean graveyard removal cards like Crypts and Leylines? I have a sneaking suspicion that people will still use these cards even if Tarmogoyf was banned.
As far as deck design, you cannot take 36 random cards + 20 lands + 4 Tarmogoyfs and have a deck to beat. You still have to make card choices but there are already set cards for each color that are the best at what they do. Unless you found a way to break Cancel so you don't have to run Force of Will, you are going to play Force of Will instead of Cancel because it is more efficient. So making an original deck design becomes harder and harder because people know the most efficient ways to use cards. Tarmogoyf is the most efficient creature so he will get the nod over others. Swords get the nod over other white removal, Lightning Bolt is better than Incinerate, Force of Will is better than Cancel. This is not making the format less interesting unless interesting means 100% Rogue decks that are sans Tarmogoyf.

Naive troll will be naive.

Did you even notice that your whole argument about all these cards that are better than others are ones that came out when the game was new? FoW, Lightning Bolt, StP....never going to have something to top them, they were designed in the initial stages of the game. Yet we now have arguably the single best creature printed in 16 years of the game, and it's not even a nod to it's own section of the color pie.

And whats with the whole "If Tarmogoyf goes, bad decks will come". 4serios? Like Thresh, Landstill, Goblins, and the Rock are going to all of a sudden be obsoleted, rather than still DtB? Hardly. What it WILL do though is give everything not green a chance to get back into the game without selling it's soul for the green splash just for the best beater.

I mean really, the only defense I hear is that people want Tarmogoyf to stick around because it's "efficient". Being an udercosted beatstick in a color that DOESN'T splash it's beaters isn't efficient, it's retarded. Look back over the years at green, and tell me how many creatures it's had that can honestly obsolete nearly the entire color wheel, and still fit into any deck able to pack a couple nonbasics.

Ya, that's what I thought.

The card never should have seen the light of day, and just because it did doesn't mean it's fair game.

[C.P.]

Did you even notice that your whole argument about all these cards that are better than others are ones that came out when the game was new? FoW, Lightning Bolt, StP....never going to have something to top them, they were designed in the initial stages of the game. Yet we now have arguably the single best creature printed in 16 years of the game, and it's not even a nod to it's own section of the color pie.

Fisrt off, Goyf is right in the color pie. If green does not get fat, what color does? If you want to talk about color pie, ask StP. I hear Black crying somewhere.

If we follow your arguement, StP and friends are fine because they saw print in beta, yet Goyf is not fine since it showed up in Future Sight. So you'd apporove Goyf if it was in Beta? I'm sure if StP is gone, format would be more 'interesting' because you get to play with other unplayed removal spell...or not.

As far as effect in format is concerned, when it saw print is not important. All cards are having an impact simulataniously.

The card never should have seen the light of day, and just because it did doesn't mean it's fair game.

So does FoW, StP, LED, Bolt, and many 'staples' in eternal format. The format is built upon design mistakes. Deal with it.

[mujadaddy]

Fisrt off, Goyf is right in the color pie. If green does not get fat, what color does?

Yes, but (?) would have been much more appropriate, power-level wise. That would have also cut it out of most green splash decks, but still kept it somewhat around.

If you want to talk about color pie, ask StP. I hear Black crying somewhere.

That's ridiculous. Lifegain, hello?

The format is built upon design mistakes. Deal with it.

Troof... funny cuz it is...

[Volt]

Fisrt off, Goyf is right in the color pie. If green does not get fat, what color does?

Blue, apparently.

Deal with it.

The "Deal with it" argument is not very persuasive. When most of us were complaining about Hulk Flash, there were still some Joe Cools out there saying "Flash ain't so bad. Deal with it." No, Tarmogoyf is not so egregious as Flash, but some of us think it is possible for a card to be less broken than Flash and still be bad for the format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Fisrt off, Goyf is right in the color pie. If green does not get fat, what color does? If you want to talk about color pie, ask StP. I hear Black crying somewhere.

And yet again, however, I have seen black run Snuffout, Vendetta, Ghastly Demise, Smother, Shriekmaw, Terror, and various Edicts rather than splash an entire nother color for a slightly better removal spell.

If we follow your arguement, StP and friends are fine because they saw print in beta, yet Goyf is not fine since it showed up in Future Sight. So you'd apporove Goyf if it was in Beta? I'm sure if StP is gone, format would be more 'interesting' because you get to play with other unplayed removal spell...or not.

As far as effect in format is concerned, when it saw print is not important. All cards are having an impact simulataniously.

So does FoW, StP, LED, Bolt, and many 'staples' in eternal format. The format is built upon design mistakes. Deal with it.

You'll notice that quite a lot of design mistakes from Beta to, let's see, Mirrodin, are not "dealt with". That is because they're on the banned list. If your argument is that you can't cards because they're too powerful, you're wrong. So, it seems that you haven't really addressed anything, have you?