Yes
No
Try Block, Standard, and Extended.Originally Posted by Magic Fanatic
Blue has been banned there for years.
Yep, faeries is trash.
But you're kinda right, I don't see how counterspell is breaking any metagame.
I don't believe that's necessarily the case here, because there's a number of decks packing FoW that don't necessarily agree on Brainstorm or Ponder. In addition, we don't have the wrecking ball singleton's that Vintage does, so neither are as insanely effective as they are out in Vintage. Chaining Ponder and Brainstorm is practically unheard of in this format, but is a legitimate plan to dig into a busted hand there.
The only decks that I know of that are packing Force of Will and not Brainstorm are some of the MUC builds. And it's not clear that they profit from doing that instead of having 6 fetches to get Islands in the deck alongside Brainstorm.
In the GP there were 66 decks packing Force of Will on day 2 (half the day 2 crowd) and 66 packing Brainstorm. There was probably a little bit of overlap there with TES, FT and ANT variants packing blue for Brainstorm and MUC not having it but I doubt it was large enough to make the point.
Merfolk decks generally don't run Brainstorm. Initially, I think they were running Ponder, but now most of them don't seem to be running any cantrips at all.
That said, the correlation between Force of Will and Brainstorm is certainly quite high.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
I agree that it's high, but I don't think it's always an auto-include. Regardless of how many TA, Thresh, Landstill and whatever other builds do it, there's still a safe number of blue based rogue decks out there that don't. As far as the chopping block goes, I think all of our blue cards are safe, with the exception of Counterbalance (though that will definitely cause them to believe the FoW vs Dark Ritual problem may arise).
Though it's a strong consideration, I also don't believe it actually limits space here the way it does in Vintage either. We can usually easily accommodate the 12 slots for all of them, or the 8 for FoW and BS/Ponder, without limiting what the decks do. Hell, even Storm combo can get away with using up those 8 slots without actually packing the deck too tight, in some cases.
I think I'll throw my hat in the ring here.
I'm not sure if Brainstorm is broken or not, but people aren't splashing blue just to get Brainstorm in their deck. They are splashing green just to do this with Tarmogoyf, which is a clear indicator the card is out of whack.
But I would like to see goyf banned for another reason; it's annoying and slows up the game. As the number of cards in the graveyard go up and down, both players have to constantly keep track of it's P/T, to keep the other one honest.
Interesting point.
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
My brother and I usually both just use a D6 on top and remind people the toughness is +1; I can imagine in cut-throat spit on your grave scenes that it's a constant struggle of always asking people to take their elbow off their graveyard so you can calculate it on your own while doing your best to maximize any chance for their confusion.As the number of cards in the graveyard go up and down, both players have to constantly keep track of it's P/T, to keep the other one honest.
Then someone Ponders into a Krosan Grip and takes out an enchantment and you have to go back and recheck the state to see what has changed. Yes, it's a minor annoyance, but an annoyance nonetheless.
I voted no, because in the two-year break I had between Tarmogoyf's apparition and today, I've seen that the Legacy metagame is as good as when I left, though a bit more blue than I remembered.
About it's power level, I rate Tarmogoyf as the fourth best creature in my deck, and if it weren't for it, I would have to run some unplayable chaff in its place, so I'm happy to have it around. What I don't understand is how it became the most feared creature in the format, heh. Makes me wonder why my deck isn't played more. :P
Removing Goyf would just push blue to find the next undercosted powerhouse to replace it. I don't want to live through the green splash for Survival of the Fittest because the meta couldn't handle goyf backed up by counters.
Not singling you out or anything, but this comment pretty much sums up why Tarmogoyf is a fucker. Seriously, we're talking about two-drops here. The fact that we can talk about guys that have CMC 2 and we mention guys like Watchwolf, Wild Mongrel, Werebear, Silver/White Knight, Dark Confidant(holy shit, control players will splash for Goyf before they splash for Confidant), etc etc... I mean, really? When these guys become 'unplayable', I feel like there's an issue with the card at hand.
This doesn't even speak to the 3- and 4-cmc guys who won't see play because of Goyf. Not even talking about Murlodonts and shit, but like stone-cold undercosted assholes that get skipped because of Goyf.
But yeah, the game's actually at a point where we're going "A 4/5 for 1G that grows is great, and pretty much whatever other two-drop I could put in there is SCHLOCK." I understand power creep, but the fundamental expectation of what a two-drop should represent is completely fucked up by Goyf's presence.
People splash black just for Dark Confidant or Thoughtseize quite often. Is that a clear indicator that those cards are out of whack?
People splash white just for Swords to Plowshares quite often. Is that a clear indicator that that card is out of whack?
And believe me...Tarmogoyf's "slowing down the game" is no where near as bad as Sensei's Divining Top's "Top after cracking a fetch, Top after Ponder, Top after Brainstorm, Top after my draw, Top on your EoT, Top in response to every spell you play..."
SDT will be banned before Goyf if "slowing down the game" is a valid reason to begin banning cards.
Don't Hate the Herd
You don't HAVE to play Dark Confidant if splash black. He is restrictive in where he can go into because he punishes decks with high mana curves.
As for Tarmogoyf, I can't think of much of a reason to NOT play him if you're splashing green. You're pretty much compelled to play the card when doing so.
The same Surging Chaos on Salvation.
You don't HAVE to play Tarmogoyf if you splash green. It's just that a lot of people choose to do so, especially Control decks since he is an efficient win condition that they've been lacking for some time.
Look at Nassif's deck from GP: Chicago. It was basically a mono-blue deck with three splashes. Green for Tarmogoyf, Black for Dark Confidant, and White for Swords to Plowshares. Each splash was essentially for a "best-in-class" option for a finisher, a card drawer, and a removal spell.
And there are plenty of reasons not to run Tarmogoyf if you're splashing, or even playing predominantly, green. In some decks, he just plain isn't a good creature.
In my RGb Aggro-Loam (197th out of 1,231 players at GP: Chicago with a 6-3 record [6-2 going into Round 9]), I actually moved Tarmogoyf to the sideboard (and am even considering a full removal of him) and instead main decked Vexing Shusher. And I've never looked back, and never once did I draw Shusher and say "Gee, I wish this was a Goyf". But lots of times I used to draw Goyf and say "Gee, I wish this was a Vore/Crusher/Bob/Witness".
Don't Hate the Herd
Not nearly as much as Goyf gets splashed. And anyway, at least these two cards can bite you for using them. A control player can slip up and get hit for 5 life when he draws a Force of Will to his Dark Confidant. StP requires you to give the other player some points of life. Goyf really has no drawback against you.
Trust me, I am equally, if not more annoyed by SDT as well... Add in all the shuffling to fetch lands to the mix, and you get to sit there and wait for 10 minutes everytime your opponent takes his turn.And believe me...Tarmogoyf's "slowing down the game" is no where near as bad as Sensei's Divining Top's "Top after cracking a fetch, Top after Ponder, Top after Brainstorm, Top after my draw, Top on your EoT, Top in response to every spell you play..."
SDT will be banned before Goyf if "slowing down the game" is a valid reason to begin banning cards.
BTW, WotC feels slowing down the game is a valid reason to ban a card. Look at Shahrazad.
Numbers?
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Apparently, for some people, there is no such thing as "too often." Anything that happens a lot can simply be categorized as "quite often" and must therefore not be a problem.
It's a matter of degrees, people. There are no absolutes here. Neither side will ever be able to prove they're absolutely correct. However, it would be nice if we could stop repeating the same fallacious tropes, such as the comparison of Tarmogoyf to Swords to Plowshares. It has already been established that while it is common to splash white for Plow, it is nearly obligatory to splash green for Tarmogoyf. Numbers back this up, not just rhetoric.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
I would love to lock this train wreck. But apparently, people seem to think they can change each other's minds, or that its relevant in some way. Those people (on both sides) are, of course, wrong. Fortunately for them, and unfortunately for me, it's not my choice to make.
It's been 420 posts. Smoke 'em if ya' got 'em. Then find something else to do, because this discussion is TIRED.
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