[Deck] G/R Midrange/Silvos.dec

[troopatroop]

I like that list alot more than my own. As long as we're going for tempo, Burn spells aren't that great. Our creatures stomp over the other guys, so unless they've got Dark Confidant, Burn spells are just OK. Lightning Bolt might still make the cut tho, imo.

I hear your logic on cutting all 2cc spells, but I think Sakura Tribe Elder is some good. ESG probably stays to hurt on Daze decks, but the only thing Llanowar Elves does that STE doesn't is enable turn 3 Fires, which is definitely relevant. The extra forest to cut down seems like it would matter tho. I'll test it. Also, Gaea's Cradle might be better as a Forest.

[eq.firemind]

I don't like Fires of Yavimaya, 'cause it doesn't do anything without other cards. But all-haste is why we can be so explosive!
I think I've found far more greater way to make our monsters faster: 4 Survival of the Fittest + 1 Anger +1 Squee. It's card advantage machine, it can provide haste just like Fires, it can transmute our topdecked ESG/Llanowar/STE into huge groundpounder, we can run a small toolbox, we can use more sideboard options... Well, you all know how good is Survival.
So I'll try -4 Fires, -2 Sarkhan Vol, -1 Gaea's Cradle, +4 Survival, +1 Squee, +1 Anger, +1 Dryad Arbor.

The other card to mention is Arc-Slogger. -1/2 Deus, +1/2 Slogger can be nice.

IMHO it will be more comfortable to play 23 lands, so -1 Harmonize, +1 Stomping Ground (for consistency, -2 life in nothing for us).

Elvish Spirit Guide is at home here because:
1. Free accelerate
2. Avoid daze
3. I use Thorn of Ametyst in SB, and Guide makes it much better
During tests I've found that with 3 nongreen and 7 nonred lands it's not always possible to cast Turn 1 Orcish Lumberjack (IMHO this guy is like Lackey in goblinz), but we need a lot of forests in deck to make him cool. So maybe I'll switch some green Guides to red or/and some forests to Stomping Grounds to play more consistent.

I will also try Mwonvilu Acid-Moss because of it's synergy with 'Jack.

In my testings Llanowar > Sakura-Tribe Elder because he's another 1-drop, he makes my Survival better and he stops Lackey.

[from Cairo]

Not to be "that guy", but wouldn't Fires of Yavimaya be better as Survival of the Fittests + Anger? I mean instead of devoting 3-4 slots to a 3 cc Enchantment that gives haste, you'd devote 6-7ish slots to the Survival package (Squee/Anger/Genesis?), and the gains would be instead of having an Enchantment that pops for +2/+2 you get one that nets you an additional Goyf/Blastoderm/w/e a turn...


EDIT: /signed eq.firemind

[keys]

I have to agree that the Survival engine seems a lot stronger than Fires at about the same cost.

Mwonvuli Acid Moss is a great suggestion as well.

[eq.firemind]

Me dumb! Noble Hierarch >>>>> Llanowar Elves! Well, can't stop Lackey, but Exalted Blastoderm is... is... is a BLAST!

I want to replace Harmonize with 4cc land destroy. Will test cards like Creeping Mold, Mwonvilu Acid-Moss, Aftershock and the likes to figure out the best (Moss for 2-1 I think)

[totti]

I am not convinced about Survival at all. Don't get me wrong, I think it is still one of the strongest cards in Legacy, I'm just not sure it is right for this deck. It might be just too mana intensive and slow. I prefer dropping Fires turn 2 and bashing with Deus turn 3. It will also 'force' us into playing with a toolbox (that's the way it is with Survival decks), thus increasing the inconsistency. In all my Survival decks, I play discard / counters to force the enchantment on the table, we don't have the option here. But please test if possible and let us know your findings.

Acid Moss's 'double' effect is great, but at a cc of 4, seems to be doing too little. Without Lumberjack, he is a suboptimal LD and really slow acceleration. I like the Plow Under better (if it works, it is the green Time Walk). Another card worth consideration might be Stunted Growth.

I do agree with the Hierarch - Llanowar switch, makes a lot of sense. Arc-Slogger is not bad at all, but in theory I want to play 4 mana 5/5s or 5 mana 6/6s rather them him. He is a bit small in this deck, funny.

I think we should avoid being too dependant on Lumberjack, he might be underestimated in game 1, but he's going to be a big target in all others. After all, he's a 1/1 in format full of removal, in format where Goblin Welder is not doing too well because of his vulnerability. Therefore I don't want to play a whole lot of 5cc cards, I don't want to be playing Slogger turn 4. Finding the right balance between acceleration and threats is crucial IMO.

[eq.firemind]

We have 8 1cc accelerants, so Turn 1 land ->Hierarch/Jack is our most common play.
With 'Jack, Survival >>>>>> Fires.
With Hierarch your Turn 2 will be Land, Survival, 1 mana open ,end of opp's turn drop something to draw Anger, your Turn 3 will be Land, drop Anger to draw Jack, play hasted Jack, (2 mana open), then just play your Plow Under/hasted Deus OR you can drop Anger for Squee, drop Squee for Jack and play your Blastoderm/Slum. In this scenario, your opponent will have to deal with your monster AND your Survival engine AND 'Jack's acceleration. Again, Survival > Fires
In my tests, T1 Survival via Guide is not bad too.
In situations where Survival is dead (no accel, no creatures to play, you're in shit ), Fires are just as dead.
All in all I'm 100% sure Survival belongs here.

About Acid-Moss. It replaces Harmonize, not Plow Under 'cause I have Survival for CA. Turn 1 Jack means Moss is "destroy target land + filter your deck" for 1 mana and tap Jack (and I WILL have Forest to cut on turn 3). Sounds great for me. Harmonize is 2-for-3 here. Not the thing I need. With Turn 1 Hierarch Moss can be casted on Turn 2 via Spirit Guide and IMHO it's > 2-for-3 Harmonize here (no CA, but gives you tempo, and affects opponent's gameplan). Without Guide, it's just as bad as Harmonize or other 4 cmc spells.

I'll post my Survival of the BIGGEST list later after some more tests and tweaks (sideboard needs a lot of work) with explanations.

[evilchen]

i personally dont like the survival stuff :/!

and after some tests i found some burnspells to good in this deck to be cut out!

[eq.firemind]

I took totti's list as a base and raped it It's still very similar, you'll see.

Survival of the BIGGEST
// Lands (23)
6 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor - for Survival
2 Stomping Ground -

//Mana Creatures (12)
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Simian Spirit Guide - the right split for me, need to test more, but 2 Simian will stay for sure.
4 Orcish Lumberjack - the awful silly huge tempo barrel.
4 Noble Hierarch - absolutly brilliant here! I 've won some games just by beating with 4/4 anger or 3/3 Jack and killing/plowing their lands.

// Bashers (7 4cc, 4 5cc, 1 free slot)
2 Rumbling Slum
3 Blastoderm
1 Wickerbough Elder - was 3d Slum
1 Flametongue Kavu - was 4h Blastoderm
3 Deus of Calamity
1 Arc-Slogger - replaces 4h Deus
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - free slot, just cute card.Originaly it was 4cc beater, but with Survival it's metagame slot (Vexing Shusher?)
After ARB release I'll replace Slums and Jaya with 3 Spellbreaker Behemoth.

//Survival package (6, replaces Fires and Sarkhan Vol)
4 Survival of the Fittest - HOT LIKE HELL!! Forget all you crappy Fires, Pandemonium and the likes!
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
Genesis sucks with Lumberjack and don't do great things for the deck, so it's in SB right now.

//Utility (7)

3 Plow Under - seems solid here. 4h was cut for 23d land.
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss - nice card, tempo+disruption+small CA, synergy with deck. No reason not to run this.
I don't need Harmonize with Survival engine. And I don't like Harmonize in general. The main thing about it is that there are better ways to gain CA in Legacy, Harmonize has no synergy with deck, does nothing special, so it's plain bad here.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst - ghostly hope against combo
SB: 3 Krosan Grip - you know...
SB: 3 Boil - metagame slots
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher - maybe even 1 main, depends on meta
SB: 1 Genesis - and some stuff to abuse it:
SB: 1 Faerie Macable - GY hate (Dredge, Loam)
SB: 1 Spore Frog - for Dredge, Loam, Goblins.
SB: 1 Caldera Hellion - just funny worm, but I rolled some white weenies, elves and goblins with it.
Need help with Sideboard, will be glad to hear any suggestions!

The first great finding (after Lumberjack ofcourse) was Survival. It makes us flexible and makes us sure we will not run out of gas. But at the same time we are not Survival-dependent and can just bash with our monsters like totti's list.
The second great addition was Noble Hierarch. It was like driving Ferrari after a crappy russian car .
The third difference is Acid-Moss. It doesn't look strong (compared to early Deus/full Survival engine/), but the card does it's work game after game and I feel better with it than with anything else I've tried (maybe because of my personal likeness to LD spells so underplayed in Legacy).