U/W Painter Stone

[baghdadbob]

So I spent a long time getting the funds ($) for this deck and its still in the works. I see the red painter everywhere along with the black blue painter with the confidant. I on the other hand wanted to take a different approach to this. I took the combo (2 card combos are awesome) and put it inside of a control shell. I would appreciate all comments. I'm new to the site this is my first post, and I'm not even sure if this is the right place to put this! lol! So without further ado here is the list...
The Deck
3x Painters Servant
3x Grindstone
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Isochron Scepters
3x Counterbalance
4x Orim's Chant
4x Force of Will
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshare
4x Counterspell
4x Brainstorm
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
2x Academy Ruins
Tenative about the amount of Plains to Islands Ratio...
The Side Board
4x Disenchant
4x Echoing Truth
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormods Crypt
2x Wrath of God
1x Engineered Explosives
So there's a few things going on here. Since this deck runs heavy amounts of artifacts academy ruins can save my butt. Counter balance-top is another nice 2 card combo fully searchable with my enlightened tutors. The 2 Isochron scepters with either counterspell... orim's chant... or swords to plowshare...or even enlightened tutor works great. Alot of people have told me to take it out but I think the 2 of is working wonders. I would more likely take out the Counter-top combo before that. Usually I play one of the other 2 combos first that way the opponent wastes there Krosan Grips, Disenchants or counters in the first 2-3 turns. I can respond but I prefer to hold my counters for backup when then unexpected second or third combo comes out. These hard lock down combos are great and fully regenerative with my academy ruins. With 7 mana I can almost win and this deck has what it takes to get there. Generally turn 7 will be...
Tap 1
Orim's Chant
No responses? Good. Force of will/daze/whatever else... I have the counter for via Counter-top, Counter or another Orim's chant on a stick or any counter in hand.
Tap 3
Painters Servant/Grindstone
Tap 3 Win the game.
Tell me what you think for improvement... in either mainboard or side. I am unwilling however to splash any other color this is strictly a blue white build.
THANKS EVERYONE!!!

[baghdadbob]

Tap 1
Orim's Chant
No responses? Good. Force of will/daze/whatever else... I have the counter for via Counter-top, Counter or another Orim's chant on a stick or any counter in hand.

Part of this is wrong the stick doesn't help in this situation with only 7 mana... I must rely on force of will in hand... or the the counter-top.

[Forbiddian]

Rtfm. You have two posts, one starting a thread and the other one bumped your own thread with copy/paste from your OP. That's gotta be a record.


Anyway, with 4 Brainstorms, you probably want more fetchlands than just 4. Whatever you choose for Islands vs. Plains, I'd cut Islands for Deltas and/or Plains for Heaths.

With four Enlightened Tutors, you should probably stomach playing some 1-of bombs. With two Academy Ruins, I can't see how you're not trying to abuse EE in the maindeck at least with one copy. Also no Moat? It seems that you'd like to dive for that card a few times off of ET.

Your deck runs enough combo elements that you probably want to run Ponder as well.



But bottom line is that "turn 7" is no longer a good turn to try to do stuff in Legacy and hasn't been for a few years. I don't want to write your deck off too soon, but Swords and Force of Will are really not good answers to the creature strategies by themselves.

To me, it seems like Painter's Grind was the start of the deck's foundation, but that in order to protect it, you've had to bend over backward into this control shell. If you can stabilize the board well enough AND resolve a 2-card combo, then you could have won with any win con. Tarmogoyf and Sower or Decree of Justice and Eternal Dragon just seem like better win cons at that point. In short: What does Painter's Grind offer you after you take out the acceleration so you can no longer get a surprise win?

Sad to say, but Tarmogoyf invalidated Painter's Grind as well.

[baghdadbob]

I'm not sure what RTFM means like I said still brand new to the sight... I'm sure it wasn't very nice though. I do appreciate the feedback. As far as "Turn 7 not being a good turn to do things in legacy" this deck always makes it to the 7th turn and I always seem to have the upper hand with the ability to force my painter/stone combo via another combo or the pretty good size amount of control. I will play test Moat and I'm not sure what I would drop for ponders. Comment back on the sideboard if you want. Also for the record I was not "bumping" my own thread I was just trying to correct my mistake. HAHA! Just saw that whole edit button there... I can see why you thought I was "Bumping". I was just not wearing my glasses sorry!

[baghdadbob]

Ok so I reworked this deck a few times because as it turns out it just did not have enough creature control to take it all the way. I went out and purchased a single moat (80$ jeez!) and a few other cards. It now preforms very much like a control deck but with the power of white removal. In my previous list I removed Orim's chant and put it in the side board, because as it turns out its not that good unless there's an isochron scepter for it to be imprinted on, or against storm. This is my new list and I will explain my choices after...
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 4 x Brainstorm
* 4 x Counterspell
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Negate
* 2 x Sower of Temptation
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 1 x Moat
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Wrath of God
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 10 x Island
* 6 x Plains
* 3 x Grindstone
* 3 x Painter's Servant
Painter servant and Grindstone are a 3 of scrictly because drawing more then 1 of each is bad. 1-2 of is not enough due to artifact hate. There are very few things that "protect" the combo but a 2 of academy ruin works really well in my opinion. Back to basics I borrowed this idea from a mono blue deck it shuts down mishras factories and all those beta dual lands people dropped a mint on. It is great against anything but monoblue and red. Problem here is that it still only gives my academy ruins a 1 of regenerate kinda deal with it in play. I'm still thinking of a better option for this predicament, any ideas? Brainstorm is good in here because I have little card advantage and being able to pop it after I tutor is good as well in a pinch. Force of Will is obvious. Sower of temptation is great because A) Gives me an alternative win. B) Flies over my moat. C) Steals creatures D) Cheaper then veldalken shackles. Swords to plowshare is an obvious as well considering I'm not really worried about my opponents health. Wrath of God as a 2 of is good because it can a) kill anything getting over moat b) kill anything that avoids spot removal c) clears away zoo. d) if they kill sower of temptation, i will have backups. Seeing as I have a bunch of creature control counterspell and negate 4 of takes care of anything else, with force of will to back it up. Enlightened tutor works really was to because it finds moat, grindstone, painter's servant, and back to basics. Was thinking of dropping 1 for a mystical tutor to find wrath of god in a pinch. Let me know what you think, it certainly seems to flow quite well on paper.

[Forbiddian]

I like the 3x Back to Basics.

That wasn't in the first list, but it wrecks a lot of unprepared decks.


Since you're running it, I'd switch Negates with Mana Leaks or Spell Snare. I haven't seen this suggested in a long time, but Mana Leak is always a strong counter early game, and late game you'll at least have a crack at resolving Back to Basics to make Mana Leak matter again.

You can hop on Magic Workstation (free DL) and playtest your deck a bit before you buy it.

[Master Shake]

I think that Vedalken Shcakles is going to be a lot stronger in this deck than Sower of Temptation. Its cheaper by a single mana and isn't reuseable but is veurnable to removal.

I'd probably rework the deck a bit personally so that I could use Eternal Dragon + a few tundra + Back to Basics.

I think that losing Scepter - Chant is going to hurt a lot as it flat-out beats a lot of decks.

Negate doesn't seem that strong and it seems to me that you really want Counter-Top to protect your Painter's Servant from an untimely decision to take up farming.

[baghdadbob]

I'm not sure I would put eternal dragon in here. Yes he's one of the best white creatures, but you shouldn't play him in every white deck ever... he's not tarmagoyf. I agree with you about losing the scepter-chant. What would you say is a worthwhile trade out? Counter-Top to protect your Painter's Servant from an untimely decision to take up farming... I assume your talking about krosan grip? Fortunately for me painter doesn't drop till late game after they wasted there krosan grip on my moat and my back to basics with me holding swords or wrath for there creatures. I'm not sure about counter-top it works but is running 3 different 2 card combos worth it? Its alot to set up and stick. Look at my previous list.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Wouldn't Trinket Mage fit better here than Sower of Temptation? Gets the card now as opposed to your next draw, allows for even more of a toolbox with EE, Pithing Needle, and other such cards that can be run as a 1-of.

Also, it costs 3, which is out of range of Chalice, and can grab EE to blow up the chalice without it getting countered.

I don't like Scepter here as your argument is that its good against storm, but it's handled easily by storm and anything else that it's good against via bounce and/or K. Grip, which, honestly, most people run religiously any more. That or Trygon Predator.

Also something to try would be more Wraths (in the board) and looking into Oblivion Ring. This is because stuff like Pithing Needle, Runed Halo and Wheel of Sun and Moon are all problematic cards for the combo, but nothing I saw in your list can handle them once they resolve. Even Cunning Wishes that can grab the removal you need would be better than no option at all. Just something to keep in mind.

I like the mana leaks over counterspells if you are set on running B2B as the double blue will be more difficult and less certain to get if you aren't able to run Tundras and fetches. In a more CB and tempo-infested meta I would certainly switch to Spell Snares.

One more thing, Ghostly Prison is just as good as moat when used in tandem with B2B. It's also cheaper and screws over stuff like Ichorid, Zoo, and EtW on it's own. I can see them solving your Zoo problems much more efficiently than Wrath of God as they are proactive in nature, being able to drop them earlier (I'd look into Mox Diamond as a good way around Back to Basics, but still accelerating your mana early in the game). The only problem with that is that you have to run more lands.

This feels a lot like fish with a combo win, I like it.

Pce,

--DC

[baghdadbob]

Thanks for your comments Dark Cynic I thought about what you said and I have tweaked the deck quite a bit tell me what you think about these new changes I think this might be the final go through unless I get some sort of enlightenment...

* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 2 x Isochron Scepter
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 2 x Back to Basics
* 4 x Counterspell
* 4 x Force of Will
* 3 x Brainstorm
* 2 x Propaganda
* 2 x Sower of Temptation
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 1 x Moat
* 3 x Orim's Chant
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 8 x Island
* 8 x Plains
I'm still trying to make room for oblivion rings... any suggestions folks? Thanks again for your help...

[Dark_Cynic87]

I think this is no where near done. The list is too jumbled. It needs some finessing, because I'm quite sure you want more than 2x B2B. I think you should rely a lot less on Enlightened Tutor.

3x Brainstorm is absurd. 4x is necessary for any blue list that benefits by running them. 2x Propaganda in a 60 card list, that's 1 out of every 30 cards, I don't understand statistics yet, but I'm pretty sure your chances of hitting one by turn 4 is extremely slim, which is when Goblins wins. Even worse, though, is that you are using Propaganda instead of Ghostly Prison. Pyroblast is used by goblins, and I assure you that they will side them in against you. If you do happen to hit a Propaganda, games 2 and 3 I can assure you they will eat a blast.

I'm beginning to think that Intuition would be better than the Tutors. Why no Trinket Mage? I understand it doesn't grab Painter's Servant, but other than that I see no reason not to test it. 0-Rings are better than WoG in the maindeck as they act as mono-colored Vindicates, and WoG isn't good in every matchup. O-Ring seems to be. I think the Moat isn't as good as Ghostly Prison. You can drop it so much faster and don't require a double color.

Pce,

--DC

[gamegeek2]

I built a version of this a while ago, except it added in Dreadnought/Stifle, which was maybe going a little too far. I like this deck - it looks like it's got some serious potential.
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
8 Island
3 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

3 Painter's Servant
3 Trinket Mage
1 Sower of Temptation

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Orim's Chant
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Moat
1 Wipe Away

[baghdadbob]

Alright I've been doing some tweaking, and this is what I came up with based on replies.

* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 3 x Ghostly Prison
* 3 x Oblivion Ring
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 4 x Brainstorm
* 2 x Counterspell
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Mana Leak
* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 8 x Island
* 8 x Plains

What do folks think?

[baghdadbob]

Last and final version of this deck. I'm going to the next tourney to try it out. Wish me luck folks.
* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 2 x Isochron Scepter
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 4 x Counterspell
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Spell Snare
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 2 x Ghostly Prison
* 1 x Moat
* 3 x Oblivion Ring
* 2 x Orim's Chant
* 2 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 8 x Island
* 7 x Plains
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 1 x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

[Phoenix Ignition]

Last and final version of this deck. I'm going to the next tourney to try it out. Wish me luck folks.
* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 2 x Isochron Scepter
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 4 x Counterspell
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Spell Snare
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 2 x Ghostly Prison
* 1 x Moat
* 3 x Oblivion Ring
* 2 x Orim's Chant
* 2 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 8 x Island
* 7 x Plains
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 1 x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

I think the 2x Orims chant are too random. Yes you might hit them with Isochron, but that's a long shot and I can imagine you'll top deck it wishing it was a StoP. StoP on a stick is huge too, so you might want to consider just going 4x StP instead.

Also, why ghostly prison instead of propaganda when you're playing more islands and using FoW. I'm sure there will be times you wish you could pitch it to FoW.

[Dark_Cynic87]

In a metagame infested with Pyroblasts and REB's (Goblins, Imperial Painter, storm, etc.), Ghostly Prison is a better choice. As we know, as long as you have 14 other cards that are blue, FoW is playable, and if you have that many blue cards, it's irrelevant if a card pitches to blue and should not be a legitimate reason to argue that you should play the blue version of a card simply based on that fact.

I would definitely drop the 2x Chants for the full set of StP. The Scepters, while I understand you want them, are a bad choice and will never satisfy you. I think Intuitions would serve better in those slots. You can grab:

2x Stone/Servant
1x Ruins

1x Stone
1x Servant
1x E. Tutor

1x Stone
1x Servant
1x Ruins

3x O-Ring

etc., and always get what you want, or you can grab all three of the piece you need and win from there. It also grabs literally anything, not just enchantments or artifacts, letting you get lands, StP's, anything you want. I think it's a much better 2-of than Scepter as it will always be something you can use. Also, it's a tutor uneffected by Chalice, which certainly helps. Against Prison lists you can screw up their mana denial strategy by tutoring for 3x B2B's or Oblivion Rings to get around their turn one Chalice @ one, which would otherwise end your game completely by knocking out your E. Tutors.

Pce,

--DC

[baghdadbob]

Thanks guys your really are helping me out. I have been play testing this deck to the max this past week or so. A few things I came across that I think should be noted. THIS DECK NEEDS DAZE. Yes I tried and tried but the deck simply loses counter battles with anyone running red blast or daze. I play back to basics they play force of will, I play force of will, they red blast it or daze it. I've been running it with the dazes' and it has been performing alot better. Well it's usless late game isn't it? Naw it still pitches to force of will so it's all good. =) I made some more tweaks to it and this is what the list look likes.
* 1 x Engineered Explosives- works great with academy ruins, is search able in a pinch.
* 3 x Grindstone- combo piece
* 2x Intuition- (thanks dark cynic!) play tested with this and it works friggin wonders. find anything I need my sixth tutor in the deck.
* 3 x Painter's Servant- other combo piece makes all my cards pitch able to force of will.
* 3 x Back to Basics- shuts down alot of decks. can side board it out for some beastly lock down cards when playing mono blue and goblins.
* 4 x Daze- Alot of play testing made me realize I need this card. I simply lose counter wars without it.
* 4 x Force of Will- Obvious.
* 4 x Mana Leak- Still unsure if this should be spell snare... or counterspell... But in a multi color deck the odds of using this early are better then that of a counterspell.
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor- Can find almost anything in my deck with this. combo pieces prisons, moat, o-rings, e.e., back to basics. Very usefull so far.
* 2 x Ghostly Prison- Great card that wont get red blasted against goblins, take it out against mono blue control for more counterspells... etc.
* 1 x Moat- strictly better then ghostly prison, mana cost is higher... but if they expricate my prison or pithing needle calling prison or chalice for 3 I have a back up plan.
* 2 x Oblivion Ring- to remove any non-creature permanents that may hit the board.
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares- best spot removal ever plus I don't care about there health I'm trying to mill them.
* 2 x Academy Ruins- Brings back all my artifacts which is really great. Even with back to basics out I still have a 1 of reanimator land. It has been working well in the long game.
* 9 x Island
* 7 x Plains
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 1 x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale- I don't own this yet but I have a proxy and when I get it out.... DAMN!

Problems I have been facing
-Wishing I had Brainstorms
- Unsure about Moat as in I haven't used it once.
- I don't own Tabernacles.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I PM'ed you again. It only allows 5000 characters per PM, so I had to seperate it into 3 different PM's. Feel free to post the list and sideboard here on the thread for people to refer to if it feels like something you would like to share.

Hope the PM's help some.

Pce,

--DC

[baghdadbob]

Thanks to a lot of much appreciated help by future star city games columnist Dark Cynic we have compiled a list deemed by both of us competition worthy!

* 1 x Engineered Explosives
* 3 x Grindstone
* 2 x Intuition
* 3 x Painter's Servant
* 3 x Back to Basics
* 2 x Mana Leak
* 4 x Daze
* 4 x Force of Will
* 4 x Brainstorm
* 4 x Enlightened Tutor
* 3 x Ghostly Prison
* 2 x Oblivion Ring
* 4 x Swords to Plowshares
* 2 x Academy Ruins
* 7 x Island
* 6 x Plains
* 1 x Tundra
* 4 x Flooded Strand
* 1 x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

side board
3x Wrath
2x O-Ring
3x Meddling Mage
1x Ghostly Prison
2x Wipe Away
3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Echoing Truth

Still 2 cards shy of actually owning the deck lol... But anyways I will play test this thoroughly and hopefully move it up to the established deck forum soon enough!

[sephorusFR]

or pithing needle calling prison

if your opp. do this, he's a moron ... PN don't affect prison ...