[Deck] Duck Hunt - Steamroll over the competition.

[Di]

So yeah, by request(or should I say pesterance...), I made the UB LandStill thread. Here's the list I currently have, which has gone under a few small changes since I posted the list in the Metagame Change thread. I decided Twisted Abomination was good enough to make the cut too, after analyzing and doing some quick testing. So yeah:

U/B Duck Hunt, by Sexy

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
5 Island
2 Swamp
1 Twisted Abomination

4 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Teferi's Response

4 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Terror
3 Vendetta

4 Standstill
2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Undead Gladiator

If you need explanations for the MD, look in the other thread. I don't feel like copy/paste it again. Besides, you guys seem intelligent enough to know anyway.

I decided to run 2 Abomination instead of the 1(which would be Dragon), because Dragon comes back, giving you infinate times. I cut Innocent Blood for them. Although I still like Blood, I think Abomination in a way sort of replaces them. Abomination rips land out of the deck, thus increasing your chances of drawing removal. It isn't the same thing, but it's close enough.

Now, my proposed sideboard:

4 Blue Elemental Blast/Chill/my own Arcane Lab techyness
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stifle
2 Decree of Pain
2 Skeletal Scrying/Deep Analysis
3 Open Slots

Yeah, not so proposed not is it? Well, That's because I'm currently unsure, as I, or anyone else should be. I believe that LandStill isn't at it's peak yet, and that FCG isn't at it's goodbye yet either. Thus, I cannot determine the numbers of what is what right now, due to the fact that the amount of LandStill and FCG is fluctuating currently. I personally feel that if FCG goes down because LandStill goes up, it won't stay down for long, if down at all. This is because I feel, no, I know Duck Hunt will beat those LandStill, causing that to decline. With U/r(w) on a decline because of an increase in Duck Hunt, FCG will make it's way back up the ladder. Not to the status it once was, but it'll make it's way up. I'll admit that FCG has a better match against this than it does U/r(w), but it's still nowhere near good for them. We'll just have to wait and see. I'm thinking Duck Hunt will show up on the 10th, and that might very well decide how this format is shaping currently.


EDIT: Decklist updated

[Ih8every1]

Diablo this version is a bit light on creature control isn't from the U/R/W build of 12 to eight now. Doesn't that hurt Duck Hunt (U/B) against aggro decks? Though it was good that you were able to put in a fourth duress and the misdirections I replaced in my list. Also does anyone have an actual decklist for this deck or does it just depend on ur metagame?

[Di]

Doesn't that hurt Duck Hunt (U/B) against aggro decks?

Yes and no, I guess. Yes because the less removal does effect my matchups against aggro, but no because this decks runs more card draw and thinning, which means I draw more disks faster. Removal can also be run in the sideboard, which would even out the gap between Urw and this.

Though it was good that you were able to put in a fourth duress and the misdirections I replaced in my list.

As I understand it, MisD is in quite a few lists.

[Di]

Double-post. Don't take me as a example :)

I just got a PM from a a team member, tux, who was one of the original developers of the deck. He informed me of a card that we all had a huge, and I mean Fuccillo huge laugh at(for those who remember the dark days of BBS threads...): Undead Gladiator.

Realize what this does before you decide to urinate. It doesn't only find a land, but it finds answers. It's additional card advantage, and it's strong late game in discarding unless spells to find answers. It seems like it's worth some testing.

However, I also see problems with it. The main being the lack of swamps in the deck. You won't be able to activate it sometimes because of this. Another problem is it's almost the same thing as Nether Spirit. A 3/1 for 1BB that comes back. However, that Nether Spirit can also draw cards.

Tux apparently likes it so far. Anyone else who's testing this, try it for yourself.

[Lord McCaffrey]

I'm not really much of a fan of Misd, having had it be thorougly plus/minus to me in the past. Also, it competes with Teferi's Response, which is situational enough as it is. Also in the new meta, with green based aggro and aggro control becoming more popular, I see it as getting even less targets. While you may say its good against randomness, which is often true, I'll be replacing it with 2 Vendettas which are also good vs randomness besides giving the more top tier decks some pause. Personal preference. Thanks so much for pointing out that awesome card BTW (Vendetta).

In other news, I'm going to stick by Obfree's thinking and try out Decree of Pain, in place of 1 Terror and 1 Disk. I see it as shoring up some of Disk's weaknesses, such as having to tap out in your main, not hitting regeners, and being vulnerable during its first turn on the board. Casting cost has me worried, especialy the double black, but i'll see if its too slow. It also has alot of surprise value since they won't expect instant speed mass removal. Not too mention that Draining into a hardcast Decree is enough to get my mouth watering. If it turns to be crud then I'll go back to what I had before. If I miss the other slightly faster removal I could switch out Abomination for it, but I doubt i will.

Undead Gladiator...

Interesting. I'll not be too quick to rip on it since I've played control vs an active Gladiator before, and can testify that its not too fun at all. Granted, I won, but mostly because i was running 4 Fact or Fictions :D . Seriously tho, especially with the high land count this deck runs, which can sometimes clog you, this guy provides a fantastic filter, besides allowing you to trade your worst card for their attacking creature, and theoretically going to the dome. Compulsion is cool, and the uncounterable version is cooler, especially since under a long standstill in the landstill mirror he'll house your opponent. I'd probably run a 1/1 split with Abomination till i figure out which is better, but I geuss its time to head to my random rares binder and start testing. He does tie up an awful lot of your black mana tho.

EDIT:
---------------------------------------------------------
Several Hours of Testing/Iming later
---------------------------------------------------------

Ok, I've basically come to the conclusion that FTK is way too awesome not too run. He is just such a powerhouse vs anything at all with creatures that his spot is almost impossible to fill. Fire/Ice is awesome too, but its FTK that was really missing the most. Without further ado:

// Ubr Darkstill, or Flaming Duck Hunt
// Manabeatz
2 Twisted Abomination
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
// Disruption
3 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Teferi's Response
// Kill
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
3-4 Fire / Ice
2-3 Vendetta
// Draw
4 Standstill
2 Skeletal Scrying
// SB
SB: 3 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 3 Deep Analysis
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

Notes on MD:
-Vendetta is superior to Terror, at least as a two to three of, because it combats Masticore, Lackey, Worker, Xantid and opposing Factories. And Dreadgnauts i suppose but, well, try not to get yourself in that situation. Thnx Caulyn for this one.
-Main thing you lose by adding black is that B2B now schools your pretty solidly. If necessary REB's could be squeezed board, perhaps by cutting Deeps for 2 REB's and one Scrye.
-This should still beat Uwr Still, and should go slightly above even vs Ub still, since the added Duress doesnt quite make up for the fact that all your removal can kill Factory, and your removal cycles. If they run Gladiator and get it running quickly tho, your screwed, tho it should be noted that you can run it almost as well as them if it turns out to make the cut. DoP could also sting if your not prepared.
-This should perform signifigantly better vs most aggro and ATS than Ub still, as Fire/Ice more than makes up for losing Misd vs burn, you have more and better removal vs everything else, and you have FTK's board.
-As Twisted only fetches U or B mana, the deck seem to be a little short on red mana. In a few games I found myself unable to cast an early Fire/Ice, if only for a turn or 2. As I certainly don't feel like running Chartooth Cougar or Shoreline Ranger, perhaps room could be made for 1 or 2 more red mana sources. Cutting a conclave or Waste would be the most obvious move, most likely for another fetch. Badlands would work, but the deck is tight enough on blue sources as it is.

Notes on SB:
-Perish is a house vs alot of the decks designed to combat Landstill, tho vs madness, it should be noted, it does not touch any of their madness outlets.
-Crypt, Perish, and DA could all be cut to 2 to make room if your meta allows it.
-Cut my FTK's to 2, and i will personally beat you senseless with my deckbox before i steal your Volcanics and make you go back to normal Ub still.

[Di]

There is a reason red isn't in this deck, and that's because Back to Basics is becoming more prevalent in the metagame with LandStill on the rise. Also, adding red isn't helping out the matchup that you had against LandStill, because you cut your 4th Duress. I'll admit Fire/Ice and FTK are terrific, but I don't think that they are needed to accomplish this deck's goal.

I also removed Misdirection for Vendetta maindeck as well. I had to give myself a huge pat on the back for finding the card while rumaging through commons. I've split the count for 3/3 between that and Terror, and I squeezed Decree of Pain into the sideboard. I also removed an Abom for a Gladiator, which is one of my favorite cards in the deck right now.

However, if you decide to stick with the Ubr "Shot down" Duck Hunt, then your manabase requires a Badlands for Abom to fetch, just like LandStill runs one Plateau for Dragon to fetch.

[Lord McCaffrey]

B2B is becoming more common and is a big issue for Ubr, but I think the manabase can be tweaked to withstand it, at least well enough to give time to find an REB (still need to make cuts, most likely a Deep and Crypt, should strengthen slightly vs ATS/Madness as a side note) or Disk.

I've been doing alot of tinkering with the manabase. I don't dare trim blue mana sources any lower than they are right now, so I don't think Badlands is for me, but i do need a little more red. Right now I'm cutting Abomination to test Undead anyways, so black mana is a bit strained too. A Conclave will probably end up getting cut for another U/B source. Still, I mean its FTK; its awesome... :-/

On Vendetta, I'm not sure I'd push higher than 2. Despite being the Evil STP and thus awesome and all, the life loss is a little severe if you draw multiples when combined with scrying and the usual control pain.

[Jander78]

I would prefer the Gladiator over Twisted Abomination, just for the fact that it can draw multiple cards and you don't loose it when you cycle it. Vendetta is a good card, I really like Decree of Pain as it gets rid of a lot of annoyances and it is nice to have a board sweeper. What about "Devour in Shadow"? Same as Vendetta without the color restriction. The only obvious problem is the fact that it costs BB which may be too much of a problem.

One thing I noticed is that you have a few key cards that cost life to use (i.e. Skeletal Scrying and Vendetta). Both of these cards seem pretty vital, but do you noticed the loss of life to be too substantial and put you on the defensive early on against aggressive decks?

Also, don't you find that you miss the extra pitch counters when facing a control mirror?? This is always the problem I have had with dropping Misdirection.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Devour is ok, but the really nice thing about Vendetta is the 1 mana casting cost. Its just a lean spell. 2cc is kinda packed, and bb only adds insult to injury.

Yeah, i noticed the suicide control thing myself, With only 2 Vendetta, it shouldn't be as big of a deal.

Thing is, vs the control mirror, you already have Duress and an uncounterable card quality filter, 2 things most control decks don't. I think that more than offsets sligtly weakened power in counter wars.

[Di]

Thing is, Vendetta's life loss should almost never be a strain to you. The only creatures with a toughness over 2 in this format are in ATS, and Worldgorger Dragon. FCG has everything set at 1 or 2, so it's not a big problem, and most other aggro are only 1-2 for a toughness as well.

Also, don't you find that you miss the extra pitch counters when facing a control mirror??

You have Duress and more card draw. It should never be a problem.

Despite being the Evil STP and thus awesome and all, the life loss is a little severe if you draw multiples when combined with scrying and the usual control pain.

3 Vendetta is working fine for me currently. I mean, if you're losing life from Vendettas and Scrying, which shouldn't be all that much to begin with, which assumed to be in mid to late game, you should already be in control.

Also, with additional win conditions as creatures, I removed a Faerie Conclave for the 4th Wasteland.

[Obfuscate Freely]

This is pretty late, but if anyone is still interested this is the list I ran at Amrod's last weekend:

//Draw
4x Standstill
2x Skeletal Scrying

//Disruption
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle
2x Teferi's Response

//Removal
4x Nevinyrral's Disk
4x Innocent Blood
3x Chain of Vapor
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Decree of Pain

//Boring Lands
4x Underground Sea
3x Polluted Delta
3x Island
2x Underground River
1x Swamp

//Lands that Disrupt
4x Wasteland
1x Dust Bowl

//Lands that Kill
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Faerie Conclave

//Sideboard
4x Duress
3x Annul
3x Coffin Purge (isn't this better than Crypt?)
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Skeletal Scrying
1x Dust Bowl

After playing this list in a tourney this weekend and getting beaten by Affinity and then getting completely rolled by a bad Stompy deck, I have decided that better removal is needed. The edicts are fantastic against most of the creatures UR Landstill has trouble with (regenerators and untargetables) but terrible against swarms. Vendetta is the black STP, so I think it's the best replacement. I'll likely switch to some kind of mix of Bloods and Vendettas. 1cc removal rocks!

Decree of Pain was mostly in the list to deal with opposing Decrees of Justice (compare it to Slice and Dice in UR Landstill). The DoPs, along with the 8 manlands and 5 waste effects (plus the extra Bowl in the side) give this deck and advantage versus most other Landstill decks under Standstill. The DoPs also serve as instant speed Infests against aggro, but the 5cc makes them slow, especially without Mana Drain.

Does anyone think it would be acceptable to cut a Disk? This list has 6 sweeper effects, which just seems excessive to me. I think running 3 Disk/2 DoP may prove sufficient. Or would it be preferable to cut down to 1 DoP?

Twisted Abomination is a cool idea, but I'm not sure if I can justify cutting anything for it. I'll test it out. Undead Gladiator is even cooler, since it is another card that could make this deck function better under Standstill than the opponent.

And finally, I imagine one of the biggest points worth discussing here is maindeck Duress. I love the card, and understand how powerful it is, but I loathe the idea of topdecking it when my opponent has no hand, or worse yet, when my opponent has a threat on the board I need to deal with. Landstill is built around the idea that as close to every card in the deck as possible works toward giving you a favorable board position, and this is why the deck can abuse Standstill as a draw engine. Therefore I feel Duress belongs in the sideboard, except in an extremely control-heavy metagame (granted that means they should have been main at Amrod's). What do you all think?

EDIT: I copy/pasted this list and somehow missed Standstills and Scryings. Who proofreads?

[shadowskyno2]

Your list is missing standstill unless for some reason you cut it.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Therefore I feel Duress belongs in the sideboard, except in an extremely control-heavy metagame (granted that means they should have been main at Amrod's). What do you all think?

With the increasing occurences of ATS and Madness, which means multiple B2B's postboard, as well as Survivals in ATS, as well as Landstill ubiquity, I think they should be MD. I only run 3 MD however, both because i needed the room and because it is true that they are weak topdecked late game, except in the control mirror when they provide another answer to Decree as well as avoiding unpleasantries like Response and being an additional counter.

[Di]

they are weak topdecked late game, except in the control mirror

Which is exactly why this deck is being played, derf. This deck is designed to beat control mirrors, and therefore, should be running 4.

[LunchBox]

Your list is missing standstill unless for some reason you cut it.

It's missing something else, too. The list is only 54 cards. Must be some supersecret tech.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Quote
Your list is missing standstill unless for some reason you cut it.


It's missing something else, too. The list is only 54 cards. Must be some supersecret tech

Or Skeletal Scrying. :D

[LunchBox]

Savage.

[Ih8every1]

Hey Obfuscate Freely, I believe you missed 4 slots in ur decklist and these cards help make the name for this deck (StandStill for those who didn't get it). You probably just didn't write it it down probably some reason or another though. I just thought i should point that out.

---------------------------

EDIT:Double post:
Sry about restating what shadowskyno2 has already said about the standstill i didn't see that the missing cards were already posted.


Merged double post. From now on, just edit the original post. jeez, I'm seeing this way too often.

-Di

[Lord McCaffrey]

Just wondering if anyone else is testing out Ubr as opposed to Ub. If you are I'd like to know:

1) What do you thinkis the right balanace between Vendetta/Whatever black removal you run and Fire/Ice. Right now I'm going 4-2, but just wondering if anyone thinks something else woudl work better.

2)What are your thoughts on the SB? Right now mine is
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Deep Analysis
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perish
1 Duress
3 Red Elemental Blast

Red Elemental Blast is mostly there vs B2B, but thinking about it I'd only bring in 2 most likely vs Madness and ATS as I'd rather have Perish and FTK, (and duress vs ATS). I was thinking that I could also do something like:
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Deep Analysis
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Perish
1 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
2 Blue Elemental Blast

This would be slightly weaker vs control and green, but slightly stronger vs Dragon and FCG.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Yeah yeah guys, I forgot the draw in my list. Edited.

[Duresses] are weak topdecked late game, except in the control mirror

Which is exactly why this deck is being played, derf. This deck is designed to beat control mirrors, and therefore, should be running 4.

Sideboarding Duress does not make you lose to control game 1, and you will certainly still have the advantage games 2 and 3. This may just be personal preference, but since Duress is a card I simply do not want in my deck in some matchups, I sideboard them in favor of maindeck removal. This also gives me room for Chain of Vapor in the main, which I really like as an all-around utility spell. I think losing game 1 to a random aggro deck because I drew Duress instead of removal is a scarier possibility than having to "get by" without the extra advantage of Duress vs. a control opponent game 1. But like I said, if aggro is nonexistant (as it seemed to be in Syracuse) I would run Duress main.

I'm curious what you guys think about Coffin Purge over Tormod's Crypt in the board. Lord McCaffrey, you mention sideboarding for ATS and Dragon; Purge pulls double duty against both of those decks and cannot be Duressed or Naturalized. Does the mana cost make Purge worse against Dragon? I know Purge is better against ATS, since a single one is likely to take both Squee and Genesis without being foiled by Stifle.