[Deck] Duck Hunt - Steamroll over the competition.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Stifle is an issue, at least with ATS, but the thing i like about Crypt is that it is a permanent, meaning that they have to have both CoV and Xantid/Grid to be able to safely go off. Purge also ties up your mana early and can only be used to kill 2 cards, which means that if they have multiple counters or multiple dragons, its easier to get around. Still, the unduressability and unstifleability of Purge is very nice, as is the fact that all teh cards you want to remove don't have to be in the graveyard at the same time. If I have problems with Crypt I'll certainly give it a shot.

[Di]

Purge also ties up your mana early and can only be used to kill 2 cards

You didn't mention that Purge doesn't remove 3 Squee. That pisses me off more than anything as a Dragon player. If you knock away a Dragon, pfft whatever. If you knock away a couple Squee, I get frusterated.

Also, Purge won't do much against 4 Worldgorger and 2 Verdant Force.

[AlexH]

Being able to remove 3 Squees is far too rare an occurence to be relavant. You get multiple uses out of purge and if you really need to, you can remove 2 squees. Crypt gets bounced and stifled while Purge doesn't go away until it's cast.

[Mad Zur]

Also, Purge won't do much against 4 Worldgorger and 2 Verdant Force.

It does more than Crypt would, unless you dump multiple Dragons into the yard. (And how often do you have to do that?)

Two may not cover everything, but three Purges and six Animate targets match up quite nicely.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Purge won't do much against 4 Worldgorger and 2 Verdant Force.

Any good Dragon player will make Crypting more than one Dragon/Verdant difficult, so I agree with Zur that Purge is likely to do more than Crypt. Remember, to force you to use Purge, they have to cast an animate effect, and once they announce their target Purge will nullify the enchantment. Thus, a single Purge is pretty much guaranteed to trade with 2 animate spells or a Duress and an animate spell, and will remove a Dragon/Verdant or two as well.

Purge doesn't remove 3 Squee.

I suppose that a surprise Crypt could possibly take out several Squees, but again, Purge is guaranteed to take out 2 targets unmolested, and can only be half-Duressed. I'd rather be using my graveyard hate to take out animate spells and Dragons anyway, since Wasteland is such a better answer to Bazaar, but Purge still seems better at removing Squees, especially against a good opponent who knows you have hate.

The point brought up by Lord McCaffrey about Xantid Swarm is a good one, and I admit I hadn't thought about that. I suppose that without Crypt there is a greater emphasis on keeping Swarm off the table, but wasn't that already a top priority? Although with that issue and the mana cost as strikes against Purge, Crypt may be the better choice afterall. Maybe it's a personal preference?

[Ih8every1]

Guys I had just played with the new U/B Duckhunt deck at my local 1.5 tourney and ended doing horrible going 2-2. I played a t2 ravager deck which i smashed, and another janky type 2 deck same result with ravager, and played an aggro Dragon deck played by a friend, and an a Crazy 88 deck with A LOT of blue permision spells.
Now i like Duckhunt a lot but i noticed that without the white the matchup versus Dragon and especially aggro dragon is a lot more difficult. I mean vendetta and edict and stuff like taht is good, but it just not the same to swords especially when ur losing life from Vendetta, and scrying. Is there anyway to improve the matchup against dragon with the new build.
This deck also has problems with a deck packed with about 12 to 16 permission spells, and win conditions like decree of justice and mobilization. Though in this match up Undead GLadiator was MVP, de was just thinning my deck to help me find an answer to all of the Crazy 88's board control. Still even with all the duress, skeletal Scrying, and the undead gladiator i just couldn't match up with the Crazy 88's permision and board control, and When i say board control i mean Mobilization and Humilty. So i believe the answer to a lot of decks crazy 88's or permsion decks would be to revert back to splashing red into the deck like Lord McCaffrey did.
I know I know that this was more like a tournament report, but i thought it could still go here as I'm trying to adjust the deck to beat certain decks. I also realized that many of you will be saying what how did this deck lose to control even though it was meant to be it. Well a Crazy 88 deck was hard enough deck for this deck to beat as it is, but when it also removes most of this creature control to md permission spells makes it that much harder for this deck to beat.
So when you guys read this think about how i can improve the deck to beat certain decks i've mention and give me feedback. Thanks a lot and i know this post wasn't that well written, and is kinda sloppy.

[tux]

I would have to say i am torn as anyone can see the advantages and disadvantages to both purge and crypt. I must say that i like purge. They can duress all day and you will still have that one or 2 in the graveyard. Not to metion your 1cc spells against dragon stifle,vendetta, plus terror and countermagic. But i cant say i would like to take out dragons entire graveyard when they dump 3 squee. But even taking out 1 or 2 hurts them a little and your still working for the same cause. I was testing it out and I have come to the conclusion that all of the removal is targeted and that is bad. Troll is a probelm at least game one depending on your sideboard. I am now running edict/blood instead of terror. edict gives me more answers to dragon and troll along with answers to factories. Terror cant touch troll or factories or anynumber of artifacts and suicide creatures. I just can stand not playing with a way to deal with troll and factories. Any other thoughts??
-tux

[Lord McCaffrey]

@Tux. Right now I'm running red and Decree of Pain. Something about running terror just shouts out scrub to me; I can't help it. Thing with Edict effects is just that they are so bad vs aggro, ATS, and Ug Madness. Ok, um, you just killed Wall of Roots/Skyshroud Elite/Basking Rootwalla. You must be so proud of your self. Here's a Rider/Wurm/Troll. Deal.

Decree of Pain has been most excellent to me, earning major style points by picking off several Ascetics, and, in one match vs Landstill, every Decree of Justice he tried to land, one of them with a hardcast DoP following a Duress. THAT was hot. I ended up drawing out 2 Fow's in a counterwar we both knew I would win (he said after the game that he had to try), then drawing 6 cards. So far my removal has been awesome for me, except that 1 game where he topdecked 4 Phantom Centaurs in a row... after I scryed and got 6 land...but I still managed to scrape it out. Fire/Ice has been ok, tho I've gotten a little irritated at it vs fatties, but the cycling and fast shutdown vs aggro still rock.

So far Undead has been +/-. His effect is decent, but he's so stupidly slow, and I often wish he had a bit beafier body, or a bit higher resistance to STP. God, why couldn't Gigapede have been black? I might have to go back to 1/1 with Twisted, or just 2 Twisted. Deep still houses Landstill mirror, and REB is some good.

[Di]

Now i like Duckhunt a lot but i noticed that without the white the matchup versus Dragon and especially aggro dragon is a lot more difficult. I mean vendetta and edict and stuff like taht is good, but it just not the same to swords especially when ur losing life from Vendetta, and scrying. Is there anyway to improve the matchup against dragon with the new build.

The Dragon matchup shouldn't be ANY different from a Uwr build. You both run X counter, both have X Stifle maindeck., both have X Wasteland. You have Duress, they don't. Vendetta is Swords to Plowshares. Lifeloss is irrelevant when they have no Permanents. Terror is the other replacement to Fire/Ice, except that it kills the Dragon. The Sideboard still has stuff like Crypt and whatnot. If anything, the matchup should be better, so I haven't a clue on what the hell you're doing wrong.

[Ih8every1]

Yeah I thought about it too, but what I really meant was there a way for this deck to beat a hybrid aggro dragon which is pretty good by the way at my tourney. Also does anybody know if i can improve my match up against Crazy 88 and anyother control deck similar to Crazy 88 because that deck gave me problems at my tounament a few nites ago. I have also decided to splash red because i miss F/I, FTk, and REB. I think these cards give the deck an even better matchup against control and helps against agrro too.

[Omgwee]

My deck is the list hes talking about for aggro dragon we just played this tuesday (check Oshwhat Stompy thread). He was forced into doing plays like vendetta a mongrel and the vendetta helps me more than him standstill wasnt an issue i couldnt sneak a rootwalla in but bazaar is just too much card advantage for it to handle never combo'd out against him but never had to.

[Lord McCaffrey]

He was forced into doing plays like vendetta a mongrel

...umm... if he Vendetta'ed a Mongrel and it landed, than neither of the players were very good, because the aggro dragon player could just pitch a card and change its color to black, and the Landstill player shoulda kinda noticed stuff like that.

[Omgwee]

ummm
lol your funny cmon now it never landed but his removal spell was just that useless on me. He knew i wasnt going to combo out, and I knew not to overcommit and force him to use the bad removal on a creature he shouldnt have to. I had 2 cards in hand so It was worth a shot for him cause he was losing life too fast and he had no other options

[TorpidNinja]

I've had a slight infatuation with the Landstill concept ever since its initial inception. A bit of chagrin against naysayers that thought Standstill and manlands would never make it (I defer to Schopenhauer).

In any event, it should be noted that I've had limited success with the archetype in my local tournament scene. Most of my blame goes to my previous build (budget necessity making Volcanic Islands into Shivan Reefs and similarly Faerie Conclaves into Blinkmoth Nexus, ironic no?), but likewise the local metagame.

Inexperienced, underfunded, and favouring creatures more than strategy, I look with shame upon my last 1.5 tourney. My opponents unskilled nature in no way assisted me through a sea of white beatdown complimented by nasty equipment and fat I had no answers for (who plays Dawn Elemental? Who does that?)

This is what makes the Ub itteration so exciting: more control, backed up with larger creature threats and a drawing engine that is actually complimented by Mana Drain. As much as I appreciate the interaction with Decree of Justice tokens and I have trust issues. Not to mention the fact that while one large DoJ may create a large army under Standstill, a much smaller DoP will eradicate it.

A thought: throughout this thread Vendetta has been put on a pedestal. However, considering the efficiency of Decree of Pain and Disk for weenie and other permanent control it gives me pause to think that no one has suggested Snuff Out. It's much more proactive against an early dragon combo, allows you to keep in check with your tempo, saves you life against larger targets, and its ACC makes it worth it even against smaller targets.

That being said, I currently run a version of this archetype built thusly:

4 Standstill
2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Twisted Abomination

4 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Teferi's Response
2 Stifle

3 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Decree of Pain
3 Snuff Out
3 Diabolic Edict

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
4 Island

I don't think I can add much more than what has already been said in terms of card choices but I have some limited points:
-I should mention that I feel Undead Gladiator is too much of a commitment to be worth tempo loss, even under a Standstill.
-The "duces" in the counterspell department I feel are rather situational. I could feel just as confident replacing Response with Misdirection and cycling each in concert based on the environment.
-"Only 3 Nevs?! SACRILEGE!" I don't quite feel this way. While the option to Mana Drain them out early is there, the typical weakness to creature rush encourages me to play the Decree as well. An easy answer to untargetables, an answer to the question of regeneration, and in extreme scenarios the mana sink one needs to both clear the board and gain card advantage from a fortuitous Mana Drain.
-Chain of Vapor is dear to me. Aside from increasing the needed blue spell count to a point where I feel comfortable the removal aspect is invaluable. My joys come from casting with an Abomination on my side, begging for the sacrifice of a land. Cycle, sacrifce land, lather, rinse, repeat.

In any event, a longer first post than I expected. Comments and questions are appreciated, especially those coming from fellow Mainers.

[Lord McCaffrey]

Welcome to the Fight Club :D .

With Snuff Out, altho the free is nice, one isn't a whole lot more than free, and while with Vendetta, you'll usually only be losing 2 or so life, with Snuff Out, your going to lose 4 life every time, which is alot more substantial chunk, and this deck already loses enough life as it is.

3 Disk really is fine with Decree of Pain. They fulfill simialar roles, and 6 mass removal would begin to clog you too much, especially since it sits towards the top of your mana curve.

I would probably drop at 1 Swamp for an island, given that you can tutor for basic Swamps with Abomination and you don't want to be stuck without blue mana early.

[Omgwee]

Why not splash white so you can get rid of those horrible removal spell known as Vendetta and Snuff Out. I mean its just a bad trade off IMO. Losing any life to get rid of a creature in a deck thats open to fast creature beats is just suicide.
try -1 swamp -1 Underground sea -3 Snuffout -1 Duress or 1 Twisted abomination and +2 Tundras +4 STP

[ns2973]

I really can't tell you how horrible twisted abomination is. In my testing it has never once been a good card to draw. Why do you need land in a deck that already rund 24-26 ? And at 6 for a bad creature? I really think this card should be re-examined. Why don't you run the blue guy instead? At least he flies.

[Di]

Why don't you run the blue guy instead? At least he flies.

That was my original choice. I really liked him. I put Abom in the decklist because I was tired of having noobs yelling at me :)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What about Ebony Charm for graveyard hate? Three cards for one mana as an instant. That'll take care of those pesky Squees. Neither of the other abilities is often useful, but they're there, if your opponent somehow gets Worship on the board, or you need to get through a blocking Troll Ascetic and he's at two life.

Also, has anyone considered Hymn to Tourach for this deck? I know the double black is painful, but damn, Hymn is some powerful stuff. Unlike Duress, there's never really a deck against which it's useless. Two for one, with the strong possibility to landscrew an opponent, or break up their combo before it can get off the ground.

[Di]

Hymn is some powerful stuff. Unlike Duress, there's never really a deck against which it's useless

Uh, LandStill plays Misdirection. The point of Duress is to help beat LandStill. Hymn helps beat yourself, because this deck is designed to face LandStill.