[Deck] Ultimate Walker

[nodahero]

After some extensive testing today (to double check my earlier conclusions) I still feel that the Wastelands are not needed and that the 4 Factory is very useful. I also still know we want another colored source in the 2nd waste slot although wether it should be a plains is still in the air (so far it seems right). I am however beginning to think that I may have been to harsh on the consistency problem previously. Crucible was fairly impressive today in testing. I will likely put it back in over the 2nd top although honestly 2 crucible seems really tempting due to all the LD I have seen lately.
Thoughts?

P.S. I am not sure it makes sense to devote board slots to combo. Primarily because against good combo players the only way we can win with such a slow deck is to get lucky. The combo player needs to either have horrid luck at hitting their DDays or have horrid flips with AdNos. Secondly because we have zero hope of honestly beating them game one and our chances do not go up drastically post board without devoting our side to beating combo. Not to mention I forsee signifcantly more aggro and control decks than anything combo based besides dredge (which is already any easy match).

P.P.S. What if anything should I cut from my list for a 4th Explosives assuming I swap a Top for Crucible again.

P.P.P.S I just went 2-0 against storm combo... I think it had ALOT ALOT ALOT to do with my familiarity of Storm and the varying methods of playing storm while also playing against one of the more TES variants (AKA all in esq lists). Also as a general note when playing against storm with this ALWAYS bring in ur Pyro/Red Blasts for combos tutors and cantrips... Those are key to beating storm.

[klaus]

@ nodahero:

Making room for the 4th EE seems feasible. I think the fact that you don't run any Disenchant effects in the board actually makes it a necessity.

4 REB seem overkill to me. I'm aware of the pros but they will hardly ever be helplful in the face of a resolved CB and the 'U control MU' already is rather favorable due to our PWs.

Those 4 SB slots: 2 Crucible 2 Waste would really only prove their worth in a meta full of LS, which most likely won't be the case.
I still like my singleton Crucible in the main though. Oftentimes it completed the A. Ruins-EE lock by making it close to unbreakable. Plus, recurring factories are nice in game 1 too, making our mana base Wasteland prove somewhat relaxes me and yes, I have actually won a couple of games by wastelocking my opponent, it also makes our Decree a real threat.

[nodahero]

I went ahead and adjusted my sideboard to be slightly more mainstream. What are everyone's thoughts.

SB: 1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
SB: 1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I created this board with the impression that aggro is already a near bye due to our infinite creature kill in the main.
GENERAL SIDEBOARD STRATEGY
Against aggro I would board in the Helix and Spout and POSSIBLY the 2nd Vengeant depending on the aggro deck such as sligh.
Against control I would bring in the Vengeant, Jace, Crucible, and possibly the Dismantling blow against certain decks.
Against combo I would board in the Blasts and Mage (Countering their cantrips is sick).
Relic comes in for the obvious matchup which is already fairly good but it never hurts to pad it a little.

[Sam]

@ nodahero :

I think you really need the lonely Tropical in it. It doesn't significaly weaken your mana base and it improves Firesprout and EE...

Against control I would bring in the Vengeant, Jace, Crucible, and possibly the Dismantling blow against certain decks.

You must bring the blast in too... The Mages are goods against some control variant (I would bring them in 100% of the time against UWb Landstill).

Crucible Waste is a strong plan versus Landstill. Moreover crucible alone stabilize your manabase. I think you should keep one in the main.

Good luck at Gencon

[legacyplayer0]

I played this list to a 14th place finish at the GP Boston legacy side event on Sunday.

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Brainstorm
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinket Mage
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Compulsive Research

2 Tolaria West
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plateau
1 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Leonin Den

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Hydroblast
1 BEB
2 Firespout
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pulse of the Fields
1 Ethersworn Canonist

My list has the same game plan as other lists, but gets there by different means. Here's some explanation for the unique card choices.

For card advantage I have replaced Jace with Compulsive Research. Compulsive Research doesn't see a lot of constructed play, because it's a sorcery, but in this deck that isn't a significant drawback. It also has great synergy with Crucible. At three mana I prefer to get my cards right away rather than wait for them to arrive over several turns.

Trinket Mage replaces Cunning Wish as the utility card. Being able to block for Planeswalkers and searching for a fourth land are two of Trinket Mages advantages. The targets are all cards that this kind of deck would want anyway, so the random bad draws that often plague decks with tool boxes are not a issue here. The one Chalice of the Void can be crippling against many decks, and it fits very well with the anti-Spell Snare theme.

[nodahero]

I definitely can see the overall strategy being the same interms of how to win but our methods to reach the end are vastly different. For example... Mage can never counteract a flurry of burn spells aimed you short of tutoring up a chalice. Weak example but I am half asleep... Not to mention your deck takes a much more tap out approach to control witch dosnt seem safe in the current metagame.

[legacyplayer0]

The reason I feel so safe tapping out is because there aren't any counters that cost more than one mana that I want to play in this deck. If there isn't an incentive to leave mana up, then why not take advantage of powerful sorcery-speed spells?

[nodahero]

You want to leave mana up for various reasons.
Example 1) cycling your Decree
Example 2) Activating your Explosives, Factorys, and Top
Example 3) Casting your StPs and Brainstorms at ideal times

Also while compulsive is a quicker boon than Jace-Compulsive cannot draw attacks away from your life and Jace can also provide more long term card advantage (something this deck accels at outside of MWS).

Another option to make your list slightly more flexible would be to swap out the Compulsives for Thirst for Knowledge and up the artifact count by 2 or so cards. One other addition could be Great Furnace. While the card advantage from TfK is not as likely to be as high as Compulsive I think there is something to be said for its ability to be cast "whenever".

[legacyplayer0]

None of those things seem like especially good reasons to play instants. There aren't many more sorcery speed cards in this list than in the normal ones, because Jace is sorcery speed.

[nodahero]

I realize this but jace also provides a much larger range of flexibility. For example... While testing this morning on MWS I was playing against 4 color balance and the game literally came done to the flexibility of jace. I actually won by decking my opponent with Jace... and I dont mean her "ultimate" either... Sad but true... By the time I drew her I was to low on cards to keep bumping her up for fear my opponent would draw into a goyf to finish me before I found a StP or Path... I was at 3 life.

[legacyplayer0]

I can agree that Jace has advantages, particularly against other blue decks like the one in your example. But I think that Compulsive Research is better for consistently hitting the fourth land drop and finding removal ASAP. This deck has a good matchup against other blue decks already, so I consider Compulsive Research to be more useful in terms of shoring up the deck's vulnerabilities.

[nodahero]

I actually hadn't noticed this before now... the jace vs compulsive argument with Jace being a bit of a win more against blue based lists... Although for the record... I do not think our deck is nearly as immune to Counterbalance as we were lead to believe. I still think the match is in out favor but no more than 60 40 at BEST...

The counter-top matchup is in someways alot worse than other decks due to all of our best removal in those matchups dieing to a cmc of 1 which in this matchup once it is underway isn't hard for them to hit. Personally I think the easiest way to beat them is ironically to simply board in REBs and Pyros and merely make them pay for trying to get set up first by having more solutions then they have.

Another note from testing today... Due to sheer boredem at our weekly legacy league I risked my flawless record taking on two player simultaneously (their decks were both tier 2 or 3 but in two on one... with them sharing 40 life; it seemed like a good test of my capabilities with this beast). Throughout our match I kept noting how Factorys seemed a little redundant except when I my Elspeths and Vengeants failed to appear and kept thinking about how Waste would have served me better particually against zoo since there manabase is so critter light as is. Does it seem logical to swap the 4 factorys in my lists for 4 wastes and find 1 more card to cut for a 4th vengeant?

As a random side note (due to a lack of Decrees) I tested out rings of brighthearth and found them to be extremely powerful although they may have been slightly win more as oppsoed to the decrees. The Rings would be nuts in the control mirror with the wastes to perpetuate the war of attrion with us knocking out two of their lands with 1 of ours and 2 mana. What is everyone elses oppions?

I guess overall it seems like our aggro matchup is extremely good and our control can actually use a slight tweak.

I think the major point of argument now is the value of Factorys in our deck. Typically against aggro the best our factorys will ever due is to trade with another critter or die to a burn spell before blocks. Against control they provide an uncounterable beater but cannot get past a goyf or nimble when trying to kill the opposition.
On the flipside using Waste against the aggro player reduces our (large) amount of ways in which to kill creatires to a slightly lower count (roughly 15 down to 11 in my list) to weaken there manabase by kicking out a spash color such as white and thus slowing the game down more to our pace. Against control we lose the ability to get in for free hits but gain the ability of crippling one color from the opposing deck.
Clearly in the control match Waste is alot better due to the its ability to cripple the already typically fragile manabase of control decks. In the aggressive matchs (something I have significantly less testing in) the line becomes very blurred because I remember games where I drew 2 factorys and obliterated my opponent and games in which I drew a factory and it died... then I would draw a factory and it would die... and eventually lost because I "missed" so many land drops.

[K_Rot_T]

Little Question: Whats with Savor the Moment in this Deck? It gives you an additional Turn for you Walkers and it "removes" a counter from the Visions as well as letting you play an additional Land (specially if you have crucible out).

I like the Trinket Mage in there but as we play for time, Intuition (even a single one) might be worth trying, so you search for example for Crucible+Ruins+Top or Explosives.

[legacyplayer0]

Savor the Moment is too unreliable to be played and is only really worth it in certain situations. The 50% chance of spending three mana on literally nothing is not a smart gamble, especially with so mana other good options in the 3 mana spot.

I agree with Nodahero that Wasteland is really good and Factory is often not so good. I like at least 1 Factory to tutor for with Tolaria West, so it shouldn't be cut completely. One upside of Wasteland that wasn't mentioned in Nodahero's post is that wasting someone when you have Ancestral counting down can be really devastating.

[Black Mass]

well, you do draw an extra card from it and it should be played in situations whre you can gain from it the most. But it doesn't add anything real to the deck whereas the other card in that same manacost is a real lightning rod with the potential of true cardadvantage.

[nodahero]

@Legacyplayer: Are you still running your list card for card or have you adjusted it since your posted it? I am really trying to make the manabase much more versatile and stable in conjunction with the spells and was curius what your list looks like.

I went ahead and tested the swap for Compulsive over Jace and noticed that while it does weaken our control matchup it does strengthen our aggressive matches more. The question is I suppose how much we should strengthen one match and weaken the other...

Also... It may be my lack of landstill experience but... Decree dosn't really seem that impressive no matter how you use it. Is their an ideal scenario for it? Or is it there as a carry over from the role it fulfilled in Landstill? Personally it seems the latter. All to often that card feels like it is to little to late or a win more card. Is it possible that Eternal Dragon may be slightly better in that slot? He provides early card advantage and ensures never missing a land drop and also comes in as a late game finisher. Thoughts?

P.S. While I realize posting your deck to often is a massive pain I think the changes warrant an update.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [M10] Plains (1)
2 [M10] Island (1)
3 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Creatures
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [DD2] Counterspell
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [DD2] Ancestral Vision
3 [CST] Brainstorm
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [SHM] Firespout
2 [RAV] Compulsive Research

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
SB: 1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

[Tangle.Wire]

I actually have no experience to this deck but i goldfished with a nearly compareable decklist, i disslike 2 Slots of the Lists i have seen, first is that i would play at least 2 jace and 2 elspeth if possible even 2 ajani. Instead of the compulsiv research i'd favor either compulsion or traderoutes, they get awesome with crucible and against LD effects, compulsion would be some more flexible as u dont need to discard lands.

Second Slots where the path to exile, while playing 3-4 lightning helix and 4 swords i think this slot would be better used in bounce spells or something like oblivion ring etc which could target other permanents than creatures too.

[nodahero]

@TangleWire: While I do not disagree with the power of Crucible+Trade Routes+Opposing LD to be great... I do disagree that it belongs in this deck and more specifically mine. My list only runs 1 Crucible and no way to tutor for it first. Second I would need to find room to fit in Trade Routes with the only visible option being the second Path. Finally I am not too terrified of opposing LD to begin with. I run more lands than most decks and thus if they are wasting my lands they are actually setting themselves back farther than me typically. Not to mention my deck needs 3 land to run and only 4 to win (one benefit of only having 3 four mana Planeswalkers).
Also as previously mentioned I do agree with you on the overabundance of targeted removal and have been considering swapping the second Path for the fourth EE due to its overall flexibility while also adding in a Tropical Island to set the EEs at 4 although I doubt that is needed so I am not sure I would ever set it there. Then again if we want the second Ajani (which I have wanted) he may be the swap for the Path.

Can anyone please tell me what four drops their are that I would want to blow up with EEs? The only cards I can even think of that get played are Moat and Sower... two cards I am not very afraid of.

[Tangle.Wire]

I was just thinking about a permanent solution for the 2 slots of Compulsiv research, but as i said i never played this deck by myself so i dont know which spells are the best, i think even Intuition, Gifts or Fact or Fiction could be nice?

The current 4 mana drops on legacy that have been played where:

Smokestack,Moat,Humility,Wrath/Damnation,Sower/Control Magic but this are all nor really dangerous due this deck, a Smokestack could but is really not played anymore.

[nodahero]

Well if all goes well I should be rocking this to a top 8 finish in like 2 and a half days. Although I often do random audibles and end up regretting it. I still want a better finisher than EDragon and Decree so if anyone has any ideas I am all ears.